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Archived Group Reads 2018 > Wuthering Heights - Week 3 -- Chapters XIII - XVIII

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message 1: by Cindy, Moderator (last edited Jun 24, 2018 12:03PM) (new) - added it

Cindy Newton | 433 comments Mod
This week's reading brings us quite a few losses. We see the passing of Hindley, Cathy, and Isabella--several of the key players in the tragic family drama that has been playing out for years.

Our reading starts off on an upbeat note--Cathy survives her illness against all odds. Edgar is a devoted nurse, never leaving her side. After two months of critical illness, she recovers, although she is never expected to regain her former strength. At this point, our narrative switches to Isabella's story, and it is a wretched tale indeed. She is made to almost immediately regret her decision to marry Heathcliff and finds that her new living situation is almost unendurable. She is expected to live in what is now the dilapidated, filthy Wuthering Heights with Hindley, Hareton, Joseph, and Heathcliff as her only companions. Need I say more? Hindley and Heathcliff live in a state of armed truce: a truce that could end in violence at any moment. Isabella reaches out to Nelly as the only person who can comfort or counsel her in her misery.

During Nelly's visit, we get to see the newlyweds interact, and it is not quite the state of wedded bliss you would expect so early in a marriage. They seem to be united in mutual hatred--or are they? Heathcliff claims that Isabella continues to make overtures to him, hopeful of an improved relationship, but she denies this. He claims that she is free to leave whenever she likes, but she denies this, as well. Whom do you believe?

The visit results in Nelly being coerced to arranging a meeting between Heathcliff and Cathy, and it is a powerful and emotional confrontation. Cathy accuses him of killing her with a broken heart; he questions how she can torment him with these accusations. They begin and end in each other's arms. Nelly, worried about Cathy's condition, approaches Heathcliff, but retreats when "he gnashed at [her], and foamed like a mad dog, and gathered her to him with greedy jealousy," (125). Edgar walks in on this reunion, but this outrage takes a back seat to Cathy's illness. This apparently precipitates her labor, and that evening she gives birth to a premature daughter, and dies.

When Nelly goes to inform Heathcliff, waiting outside, of Catherine's death, he already knows. At Nelly's pious hope that Cathy is now at peace in Heaven, he responds that his one prayer was that "Catherine Earnshaw, may you not rest, as long as I am living!" He begs her to haunt him, to drive him mad, "only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you!" (130). At this point, "he dashed his head against the knotted trunk; and, lifting up his eyes, howled, not like a man, but like a savage beast," (130).

Isabella takes the occasion of Cathy's funeral to make a break for it. After inciting Hindley's rage, she taunts Heathcliff into a fury and flees while they fight it out. She does not escape unscathed, though; Heathcliff manages to stab her in the neck with a knife before she gets away. After describing the events to Nelly and refreshing herself, Isabella leaves and never returns. We learn that she gives birth to a son (whom she names Linton--probably the name Heathcliff hates the most in the world!) and lives untroubled by her husband until her death. Her son is twelve when he loses his mother. Edgar travels to Isabella's deathbed and makes peace with his sister, then takes custody of her child.

Nelly reflects on the difference between Hindley and Edgar: both are doting husbands who lose their wives at a young age and are left with an infant to raise. What very different paths they take! What do you see as the difference for this?

What do you think about Isabella and Heathcliff's marriage? According to him, he never tells Isabella that he loves her and that he is brutally honest about his opinion of her. He even hangs her dog right in front of her and expresses a desire to hang everyone she cares for! What possesses her to marry him under these circumstances?

Heathcliff is often compared to some type of animal or beast--I have included a couple of those comparisons in the comments above. What is the purpose of this?

Heathcliff's revenge encompasses quite a few people. What do you think of his treatment of Hareton? Hareton is born into the landed gentry--a young man of good family with an estate that has been in the family for generations. Instead, he is now in the situation Heathcliff would have been in had it not been for Mr. Earnshaw's charity--penniless, ignorant, illiterate, and unsociable. Much of this is the fault of his own father, but Heathcliff has been careful to maintain this condition. Why is it so important for Heathcliff to take revenge on people who have never personally abused him?

What did you think of Heathcliff and Catherine's reunion? What do you think of their relationship? Do you see it as a romance, or something more destructive?

Please share any thoughts or reactions you have to this week's reading!!


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Cindy wrote: "Heathcliff claims that Isabella continues to make overtures to him, hopeful of an improved relationship, but she denies this. He claims that she is free to leave whenever she likes, but she denies this, as well. Whom do you believe?"

Maybe we can believe Heathcliff; here's my point of view:

Isabelle was raised as part of a higher class:
On one side, she's problably shocked (who wouldn't be?) of what happens to her, even if she first wanted Heathcliff. So maybe some part of the slight reason she had has gone.
On the other side, her education gave her pride. And this pride itself prevents her from confessing that this marriage is a failure. And to recognize that this marriage is a failure is to acknowledge that she was completely wrong in her decision: it's her failure.

Maybe also she says she can't leave Heathcliff, because despite all what happens, all what she says to Nelly, deep inside her, Isabelle still thinks she can change Heathcliff and turn this failure into success. As I said it before, maybe she still hopes she can master the beast.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Cindy wrote: "What do you think about Isabella and Heathcliff's marriage? According to him, he never tells Isabella that he loves her and that he is brutally honest about his opinion of her. He even hangs her dog right in front of her and expresses a desire to hang everyone she cares for! What possesses her to marry him under these circumstances?"

Poor little Isabelle was blind! She was playing to give herself the big thrill! She thought all this was just a game. How old was she? I can't remember, but she was very young and didn"t know anything about life, and about men. How could she have guess a man like Heathcliff could exist for real?
Certainly Heathcliff never told her he loved her; but Isabelle the naive could she have imagined that a man would marry her without love?

What has Isabelle thought when Heathcliff "expresses a desire to hang everyone she cares for"?
Maybe she thought, like in the romances she probably read: "Heathcliff loves me so much that he wants me to care only for him. Jealousy means love."


Charlotte (charlottecph) | 271 comments Sherry,

I like your point of view from last week:

“As for Catherine, she has known Heathcliff since childhood and she and he are kindred spirits. It’s not about the bad boy I think. She and he have had fun together growing up. There was a good side to him then. I actually think she loves that part of him. Sadly, the young fun loving side of Heathcliff is gone. She’s angry in her own right.

Maybe their attraction is about bringing those days of dreaming and joyful playing back in some way. No one has ever made him or her that happy since.”

What I was wondering last week was where the attraction to the byronic hero was to be found. I had the impression that that is what Wuthering Heights is famous for. It looks like it is not an attraction between the characters in the novel, but rather readers being attracted to the brooding, rough character of Heathcliff.

The comment I wrote in the discussion of last week probably belongs to the events in this week:

Perhaps I am reading too much into the story, but I sense that every time Heathcliff faces Isabella, he thinks about Catherine and is bitter that it isn’t she who is his wife and that makes him even more evil.


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SherryRose | 68 comments Charlotte, I think there is a lot of resentment that Isabella isn’t Cathy. Heathcliff also sees Edgar when he looks at his sister which fuels his hate even more.

I will never understand the Byronic hero thing. I don’t care how handsome Heathcliff is or how bad his childhood was, he’s the type to avoid! There are women who fall for Heathcliff types every day. No contact orders are made but they’re broken. I knew a woman who went to court to have the no contact order removed. She loved her husband no matter what he did. It happens all the time.


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Cindy Newton | 433 comments Mod
Gabrielle wrote: "She was playing to give herself the big thrill! She thought all this was just a game. How old was she? . . . Maybe she thought, like in the romances she probably read: "Heathcliff loves me so much that he wants me to care only for him. Jealousy means love."..."

I agree with you, Gabrielle. Isabella's youth and inexperience leave her in complete ignorance about how depraved or cruel a man can be to a woman. She is unable to comprehend that it is possible for a man to behave as Heathcliff does! I think the jealousy idea works, too. As a young woman, pining for romance, no doubt such possessiveness and perceived jealousy would appeal to her. Such utterances could only be inspired by a deep and abiding passion, yes? The unfortunate thing is that women still make that mistake!


message 7: by Cindy, Moderator (last edited Jun 27, 2018 01:26PM) (new) - added it

Cindy Newton | 433 comments Mod
Charlotte wrote: "What I was wondering last week was where the attraction to the byronic hero was to be found. I had the impression that that is what Wuthering Heights is famous for. It looks like it is not an attraction between the characters in the novel, but rather readers being attracted to the brooding, rough character of Heathcliff...."

I think the attraction that Wuthering Heights is famous for is the relationship between Heathcliff and Catherine. It is true that she dies pretty early in the story, but I believe we have already seen from the beginning of the book that, despite the fact that she has been dead for many years at that point, Heathcliff's love for her has not diminished.

When Mr. Lockwood has his nightmare and wakes up yelling in Cathy's old bed, Heathcliff "got onto the bed and wrenched open the lattice, bursting, as he pulled at it, into an uncontrollable passion of tears.
'Come in! Come in! he sobbed. 'Cathy, do come. Oh, do--once more! Oh! my heart's darling, hear me this time--Catherine, at last!" (23).

I thought I would include, for any who are unfamiliar with the term, the definition of a Byronic hero:

Historian and critic Lord Macaulay described the character as "a man proud, moody, cynical, with defiance on his brow, and misery in his heart, a scorner of his kind, implacable in revenge, yet capable of deep and strong affection".

I think Heathcliff fits the bill!


message 8: by SherryRose (last edited Jun 27, 2018 01:46PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

SherryRose | 68 comments He does fit the bill. I can’t imagine why anyone would be attracted to this type of person. To be with a cynical miserable moody proud vengeful and defiant person. Misery in his heart?I think if this was my husband I’d just call him a crab! Lol It would be awful to be with a sour puss. Heathcliff is handsome. What if he was unattractive and older? Then you’d have to wonder why anyone is attracted to the crabby old man! Living with him is very different than idealizing him like poor Isabella did. She learned the hard way what a Byronic hero is all about. Ouch!


message 9: by Cindy, Moderator (new) - added it

Cindy Newton | 433 comments Mod
Sherry wrote: "He does fit the bill. I can’t imagine why anyone would be attracted to this type of person. To be with a cynical miserable moody proud vengeful and defiant person. Misery in his heart?I think if th..."

I think it is a result of women reading too many romances like Gabrielle said! In romances, the hero is always difficult and prickly, like this, but also incredibly good-looking. All the women are attracted to him, but there is always that ONE woman--the only woman on the planet, apparently--who has the power to "tame the beast," (to quote Gabrielle again). Isabella, like so many others, hopes that she may be the one woman who can turn this surly, rude jerk into an adoring and thoughtful husband. Of course, we see how that turns out!


message 10: by SherryRose (last edited Jun 28, 2018 07:47AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

SherryRose | 68 comments Yes we do! It happens today! I remember hearing the advice that what ever flaws the person you’re thinking of marrying has, they’ll be far worse after marriage! Then it’s a lifetime of hell if his flaws are going to cause abuse or dysfunction. You can’t change who someone is. Those traits are not changeable. They might be on good behavior in the early stages of love but the honeymoon is short lived. When you come down from cloud 9 you’re looking at the real unguarded true person. Although if I remember right, Heathcliff pretty much told Isabella he was no angel.


SherryRose | 68 comments We’re at the stage of finding out how awful Edgar is. His sister is desperate for help and he ignores her. That is cruel. She made a mistake in marrying Heathcliff but she doesn’t deserve the cruel indifference of her brother.


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Nina Clare | 135 comments Sherry wrote: "We’re at the stage of finding out how awful Edgar is. His sister is desperate for help and he ignores her. That is cruel. She made a mistake in marrying Heathcliff but she doesn’t deserve the cruel..."

Yes, I was shocked at Edgar's treatment of his sister. To cut her off, knowing the misery she was likely to be enduring seemed really harsh. He didn't even invite her to Cathy's funeral! I'm glad there was a reconciliation at the end between them, but it was a shame it took so long for him to forgive her.


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Nina Clare | 135 comments Wow - these last chapters have been an emotional read! What brutal images Bronte can create - the worst one for me was Isabella almost casually mentioning that as she fled from WH, little Hareton was hanging puppies (!!!) in the kitchen.

Do you think Heathcliff killed Hindley? Joseph says that his master was alive when he went for the doctor, leaving Hindley with Heathcliff, but was dead by the time he got back. Nelly asks 'Had he fair play?'

I keep forgetting how young everyone in the story is, Nelly says that Hindley was barely 27 at his death, the same age as herself. Cathy, Isabella and Heathcliff much younger - late teens, or early twenties. Somehow their youth makes it all the more tragic.


message 14: by Cindy, Moderator (new) - added it

Cindy Newton | 433 comments Mod
Nina wrote: "Wow - these last chapters have been an emotional read! What brutal images Bronte can create - the worst one for me was Isabella almost casually mentioning that as she fled from WH, little Hareton w..."

I had forgotten about that! Yes, how casually she throws that little detail in there--and how graphically that one sentence reveals the state of affairs at WH.

Do you think Heathcliff killed Hindley? Joesph was inferring that this was at least a possibility. I think it is one of those things that Bronte purposely leaves to the reader's imagination. We know that he wanted to kill him, but is he evil enough to actually go through with it?

I keep forgetting how young everyone in the story is. Yes, Catherine was not yet 20 when she died, Hindley 27, and Isabella might have made it to 30.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Cindy wrote: "The unfortunate thing is that women still make that mistake!"

I wouldn't name this a mistake, for me, choosing the "bad boy" once is more an experience, but it's only my opinion, I understand some can have another one. One cannot say with certainty that one doesn't like broccoli and cannot digest them, if one has never tasted them.
I would rather trust someone who had bad experiences in his life, whether they are voluntary or involuntary, than someone who took great care of avoiding experiences to be sure not to make "mistakes".


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Cindy wrote: "Sherry wrote: "He does fit the bill. I can’t imagine why anyone would be attracted to this type of person. To be with a cynical miserable moody proud vengeful and defiant person. Misery in his hear..."

Like button!


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Sherry wrote: "Yes we do! It happens today! I remember hearing the advice that what ever flaws the person you’re thinking of marrying has, they’ll be far worse after marriage! Then it’s a lifetime of hell if his ..."

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Sherry wrote: "Heathcliff pretty much told Isabella he was no angel"
Yes he did. But Isabella like most of us have done it once, only saw what she wanted to see, did she?


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Nina wrote: "Somehow their youth makes it all the more tragic."
You're right.
When your partner in life dies at the age of 80 and you had 50 or 60 years together, you're certainly sad, but your reason tells you it's "normal", easier to "accept".
But when your love dies although you're only 27 or so like Heathcliff and he even not had time to share his love with her, this unbearable fact adds to his sorrow.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Cindy wrote: "Nelly reflects on the difference between Hindley and Edgar: both are doting husbands who lose their wives at a young age and are left with an infant to raise. What very different paths they take! What do you see as the difference for this?"

If I remember well, I started to appreciate Edgar after Catherine's death:
He forgave his sister Isabelle to marry his worst ennemy Heathcliff.
He really loved Catherine: he seems very in sorrow and he doesn't marry again; he could have, in his time it would have been "normal" for a father to marry again to have a woman at home to raise his child.

Edgar is stronger than Hindley: or you properly kill yourself like a Romeo or a Juliet, or you live for you and for your wife's child. Edgar chose to take his responsabilities, it's all to his credit. Hindley chose nothing: not to kill himself because he can't live without his wife, not to take his responsabilties towards his son: he's weak.


SherryRose | 68 comments Yes she did. People in love are very good at seeing the one they love through rose colored glasses.


SherryRose | 68 comments Gabrielle wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Sherry wrote: "He does fit the bill. I can’t imagine why anyone would be attracted to this type of person. To be with a cynical miserable moody proud vengeful and defiant person. Mise..."

Thank you!


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SherryRose | 68 comments Gabrielle wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Nelly reflects on the difference between Hindley and Edgar: both are doting husbands who lose their wives at a young age and are left with an infant to raise. What very different path..."

Hindley has destroyed himself with alcohol and bitterness. His abuse towards Hareton is unforgivable. He’s so abusive that Hareton actually prefers Heathcliff. Now that says something! This group makes most dysfunctional families look like the Cleavers!


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Sherry wrote: "This group makes most dysfunctional families look like the Cleavers!"
I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean... who are the Cleavers?


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Cindy Newton | 433 comments Mod
Gabrielle wrote: "Sherry wrote: "This group makes most dysfunctional families look like the Cleavers!"
I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean... who are the Cleavers?"


The Cleavers are a family from an American tv sitcom made in the '50s called Leave It to Beaver. Beaver was the nickname of the youngest child of the family, and like a lot of boys, seemed to always get himself into situations. The family was the epitome of the "perfect American family." Dad went to work every day and was always dispensing words of wisdom. Mom stayed home and kept the house immaculate (she's now famous for vacuuming while wearing heels and pearls--not JUST heels and pearls! ;) ) She was also the perfect loving, supportive mom who never got annoyed or lost her temper. Needless to say, NOT very realistic!


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Cindy Newton | 433 comments Mod
Gabrielle wrote: "Edgar is stronger than Hindley: or you properly kill yourself like a Romeo or a Juliet, or you live for you and for your wife's child. Edgar chose to take his responsabilities, it's all to his credit...."

I agree, Gabrielle. A good parent understands that having a child means that there are times you have to put aside your personal feelings and do what is best for your child. It's hard, but your love for your child is what gives you the strength to do it. Hindley's grief was more important to him than the welfare of his child. He's a selfish and weak man.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Cindy wrote: "The Cleavers are a family from an American tv sitcom made in the '50s ... Needless to say, NOT very realistic! "

Ah ah! :D I'm happy to read: NOT very realistic! because a lot of American series like the one you're talking about are on French TV and ...
This is a joke we have with my children: when they say or do something wrong, or a mistake, they say: Hey! I'm not a perfect American child!


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Cindy wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Edgar is stronger than Hindley: or you properly kill yourself like a Romeo or a Juliet, or you live for you and for your wife's child. Edgar chose to take his responsabilities, it..."

Thanks.


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Cindy Newton | 433 comments Mod
Gabrielle wrote: "Cindy wrote: "The Cleavers are a family from an American tv sitcom made in the '50s ... Needless to say, NOT very realistic! "

Ah ah! :D I'm happy to read: NOT very realistic! because a lot of Ame..."


If you've ever seen the show Roseanne, I think that's closer to the average American family than the Cleavers! The parents love each other and love their kids, but it is a daily struggle to pay the bills, to deal with kids who are fighting and getting on your last nerve, to deal with annoying extended family members, bills, taxes, jobs--all the stresses of modern life.


Louise Culmer | 46 comments Cindy wrote: "Sherry wrote: "He does fit the bill. I can’t imagine why anyone would be attracted to this type of person. To be with a cynical miserable moody proud vengeful and defiant person. Misery in his hear..."

I have always preferred romance heroes who are not prickly and difficult. Mr Knightley in Emma for example. The trouble with Wuthering Heights is that Cathy only has the choice between Heathcliffe, who is a nutcase but loaded with sex appeal, and Edgart Linton, who is nice but a bit wet. The fact that she wavers between them suggests that neither is entirely satisfactory. SOmeone with sex appeal but also sense would be better, but he never turns up.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Cindy wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Cindy wrote: "The Cleavers are a family from an American tv sitcom made in the '50s ... Needless to say, NOT very realistic! "

Ah ah! :D I'm happy to read: NOT very realistic! be..."

Oh, yes, I saw Roseanne when I lived in England, a looong time ago. So, average American families are not all perfect or heroes, then! 😊 I'm less impressed, now, thanks!


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Cindy wrote: "Heathcliff is often compared to some type of animal or beast--I have included a couple of those comparisons in the comments above. What is the purpose of this?"
I also compared Heathcliff to a beast, in this sense:
he's clever but he never made him the civilized rules of the human society because
1 as a little boy, he seemed to have lived in the street, so he could have learned them,
2 when he was "adopted", he was not welcomed in the family, because nothing was explained to the children or to the wife. So what Heathcliff saw of the "civilized" people didn't maybe give him the desire of having civilized manners.
3 He had to work so much as a teenager that he had to give up learning.
4 The lack of love made him hate people who had hurt him.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Louise wrote: "I have always preferred romance heroes who are not prickly and difficult."

Indeed neither Heathcliff nor Edgar could please you! 😊
I wonder if the couple Heathcliff-Catherine could have worked? Maybe Catherine has wondered this too: even if she really loved Heathcliff, maybe she thought that two strong characters like them would have destroyed one another. Maybe she married Edgar to be sure she could not marry Heathcliff?


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Cindy Newton | 433 comments Mod
Gabrielle wrote: "Louise wrote: "I have always preferred romance heroes who are not prickly and difficult."

Indeed neither Heathcliff nor Edgar could please you! 😊
I wonder if the couple Heathcliff-Catherine could ..."


That's an interesting point, Gabrielle. It seems like they may have been "damned if they do and damned if they don't." I think, despite their affinity for each other, theirs would have been a tempestuous relationship if they had married. On the other hand, they certainly weren't fit to be with other people!!


Louise Culmer | 46 comments Gabrielle wrote: "Louise wrote: "I have always preferred romance heroes who are not prickly and difficult."

Indeed neither Heathcliff nor Edgar could please you! 😊
I wonder if the couple Heathcliff-Catherine could ..."


I tend to see Heathcliff as deranged rather than strong. I am not sure how he and Catherine would have been as a couple. It's hard to imagine. But at least they would only have been making each other miserable, rather than two other people. But then what if they had children?


Louise Culmer | 46 comments Gabrielle wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Cindy wrote: "The Cleavers are a family from an American tv sitcom made in the '50s ... Needless to say, NOT very realistic! "

Ah ah! :D I'm happy to read: NOT very..."


Married With Children is another one that shows a less than perfect family


Laurene | 163 comments Sherry wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Nelly reflects on the difference between Hindley and Edgar: both are doting husbands who lose their wives at a young age and are left with an infant to raise. What v..."

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Laurene | 163 comments Gabrielle wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Heathcliff is often compared to some type of animal or beast--I have included a couple of those comparisons in the comments above. What is the purpose of this?"
I also compared Heathc..."


The perfect making of a sociopath!


Clarissa (clariann) | 538 comments Louise wrote: "I tend to see Heathcliff as deranged rather than strong. I am not sure how he and Catherine would have been as a couple. It's hard to imagine. But at least they would only have been making each other miserable, rather than two other people. But then what if they had children? .."

Heathcliff and Cathy are only 19 and 18 respectively when she dies, Edgar is 21. Judging them by twenty first eyes they are all barely adults and wouldn't be expected to have their mature personalities necessarily formed.

I think romantically wise, the part of Heathcliff and Cathy's relationship that could be idolised is that they know each other and accept each other. And I see a nice reflection with Isabella who is entirely ignorant of Heathcliff, but believes she can make Heathcliff into a man who loves and worships her, contrasted with Cathy, who Heathcliff does love and I think he is different with her than anyone else. It is significant that we see very little of them together forming the bond that is strong enough to survive Heathcliff's absence and Cathy's marriage. Their actual love is almost entirely beyond the narrative and the prying eyes of Nelly and others.

Frances and Hindley dote on each other and he is devastated by her death, and interestingly judged by the doctor who is very unsympathetic saying he should have chosen a tougher woman.

The other love is between Edgar and Cathy and seems a practical marriage that many people would take of their class, Cathy herself sees it as a passing thing different to her eternal love for Heathcliff, but she still makes the decision to be Edgar's wife.


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Cindy Newton | 433 comments Mod
Clari wrote: "It is significant that we see very little of them together forming the bond that is strong enough to survive Heathcliff's absence and Cathy's marriage. Their actual love is almost entirely beyond the narrative and the prying eyes of Nelly and others. ..."

This is so true! I hadn't thought of that. That's such a wonderful concept, that Heathcliff and Catherine's love is something too precious and pure for anyone else to witness; it is fiercely private.


Louise Culmer | 46 comments Clari wrote: "Louise wrote: "I tend to see Heathcliff as deranged rather than strong. I am not sure how he and Catherine would have been as a couple. It's hard to imagine. But at least they would only have been ..."

Heathcliff clearly hasn't got any better as he gets older, if anything he's got worse. he seems to become more and more malignant and destructive. And loving Heathcliff doesn't stop Cathy hankering after the lifestyle of the Lintons, she seems to have a craving for a more civilised way of life. Whether she would ever have been entirely happy with Heathcliff I am doubtful.


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Clarissa (clariann) | 538 comments Louise wrote: "And loving Heathcliff doesn't stop Cathy hankering after the lifestyle of the Lintons, she seems to have a craving for a more civilised way of life. Whether she would ever have been entirely happy with Heathcliff I am doubtful. .."

It is a bit before this section, but I think there is symbolism and poignancy in the chapters where Cathy is trying to balance between Heathcliff and the Lintons. She is around 12/13 when they first take her in so it can be seen to line up age wise with hitting puberty and show the choice she is faced with between childhood wildness and becoming the adult society expects her to be,
In Chapter 8 Nelly says:

'At fifteen she was the queen of the countryside; she had no peer...She had a wondrous constancy to old attachments: even Heathcliff kept his hold on her affections unalterably; and young Linton, with all his superiority found it difficult to make an equally deep impression.'

Because of the unreliable narrative, (this passage is in the same chapter where Heathcliff is marking up all the time that Cathy spends with Edgar compared to him and showing how hurt he is that he doesn't see her as often), it is hard to take anything as it is written, but through Nelly's narration, Cathy's true attachment is to Heathcliff and her relationship with Edgar is her growing up and flirting with a different identity, before, if things had turned out differently, she would have settled down with the person she truly loves and is suited to.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Louise wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Cindy wrote: "The Cleavers are a family from an American tv sitcom made in the '50s ... Needless to say, NOT very realistic! "

Married With Children is another one that shows a less than perfect family ..."


I saw some episodes of this series, there are ... several decades! A good one in its time, yes, I remember. I even remember the song! :D


SherryRose | 68 comments I think Catherine is a bit conniving. I had forgotten that one of the reasons she became engaged to Linton was to take care of Heathcliff. She would have had to do that on the sly given Linton’s hatred for Heathcliff. Actually that would be asking a lot of anyone. She pretty much declared her love for Heathcliff at that point as well. It makes me wonder if she wanted the rich guy for security and planned on an affair for the one she was actually attracted to.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Sherry wrote: "It makes me wonder if she wanted the rich guy for security and planned on an affair for the one she was actually attracted to. "
I don't think so... but, now, I always try to see the bright side of things, people, life! :)
For me, she didn't plan marrying the rich one and then loving the other one. As far as I can remember, she tried to be a good wife, she even tried to take care of Isabelle. But her passion for Heathcliff was stronger than what she thought... but, who knows?


SherryRose | 68 comments She was doing ok with Linton until Heathcliff came back. She had planned on taking care of Heathcliff through Linton. I don’t think Linton would have agreed. It might have caused a strain. But Heathcliff became rich in his own right so it never happened.


Gabrielle Dubois (gabrielle-dubois) | 463 comments Sherry wrote: "She was doing ok with Linton until Heathcliff came back. She had planned on taking care of Heathcliff through Linton. I don’t think Linton would have agreed. It might have caused a strain. But Heat..."
True!


message 47: by Kerstin, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kerstin | 683 comments Mod
Cindy wrote: "I think it is a result of women reading too many romances like Gabrielle said! In romances, the hero is always difficult and prickly, like this, but also incredibly good-looking. All the women are attracted to him, but there is always that ONE woman--the only woman on the planet, apparently--who has the power to "tame the beast," (to quote Gabrielle again). Isabella, like so many others, hopes that she may be the one woman who can turn this surly, rude jerk into an adoring and thoughtful husband. Of course, we see how that turns out! "

LOL!!!! Oh did I just crack up! Yet this particular fiction/fantasy is irresistible, otherwise we wouldn't have a billion-dollar romance-genre industry.


message 48: by Kerstin, Moderator (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kerstin | 683 comments Mod
I think Heathcliff never overcame his adolescent "angry-young-man" stage. It took hold of him and it festered instead of growing out of it as he matured. We don't get a good sense either of who he really is and where he came from. There is no tangible background information. In Chapter IV, when he gets baptized, they give him the name 'Heathcliff' "both for Christian and surname." Even in name he is branded an outsider, someone who doesn't belong to anyone or anywhere. When Isabella marries him, she becomes Mrs. Heathcliff, she loses her status of belonging to a family.

There are two more pivotal scenes in my estimation:
Chapter IV
”…still I couldn’t dote on Heathcliff, and I wondered often what my master saw to admire so much in the sullen boy; who never, to my recollection, repaid his indulgence by any sign of gratitude. He was not insolent to his benefactor, he was simply insensible; though knowing perfectly the hold he had on his heart, and conscious he had only to speak and all the house would be obliged to bend to his wishes.”


Chapter VII
”I set him a stool by the fire, and offered him a quantity of good things: but he was sick and could eat little, and my attempts to entertain him were thrown away. He leant his two elbows on his knees, and his chin on his hands and remained rapt in dumb meditation. On my inquiring the subject of his thoughts, he answered gravely—‘ I’m trying to settle how I shall pay Hindley back. I don’t care how long I wait, if I can only do it at last. I hope he will not die before I do!’ ‘For shame, Heathcliff!’ said I. ‘It is for God to punish wicked people; we should learn to forgive.’ ‘No, God won’t have the satisfaction that I shall,’ he returned. ‘I only wish I knew the best way! Let me alone, and I’ll plan it out: while I’m thinking of that I don’t feel pain.’”



message 49: by Kerstin, Moderator (last edited Jul 15, 2018 11:36AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kerstin | 683 comments Mod
Cindy wrote: "Edgar walks in on this reunion, but this outrage takes a back seat to Cathy's illness. This apparently precipitates her labor, and that evening she gives birth to a premature daughter, and dies."

I am wondering if the onset of Catherine's pregnancy coinsided with her getting ill. She is a completely self-absorbed woman. There is nothing authentically generous in her nature. Pregnancy, the growing of her own child under her heart is a form of self-giving. This is foreign to her, not just in mind but in body. Yet nature will take its course, and this forced-upon selflessness kills her.


message 50: by Renee, Moderator (new) - rated it 3 stars

Renee M | 2059 comments Mod
Ha! That’s a great twist!


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