Poldark Saga - Winston Graham discussion

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TV adaptation > Season 4 - Episode 4

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message 1: by Tanya, Moderator/Hostess (new)

Tanya | 640 comments Mod
Welcoming comments for Season 4 - Episode 4 (2018)


message 2: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments My overwhelming feeling from episode 4 is how fragile is the Poldark marriage!! They go though the motions but the passion is gone and they are both struggling to know what to do. They both seem lost from each other.


message 3: by Faith (new)

Faith | 60 comments Stella wrote: "My overwhelming feeling from episode 4 is how fragile is the Poldark marriage!! They go though the motions but the passion is gone and they are both struggling to know what to do. They both seem lo..."

Yep...There marriage is fragile


message 4: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Stella wrote: "My overwhelming feeling from episode 4 is how fragile is the Poldark marriage!! They go though the motions but the passion is gone and they are both struggling to know what to do. They both seem lo..."

Stella, how could it be different? Ross keeps his anger bottled up inside and Demelza's thinks she's said enough.


message 5: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Yes Ken and this is straight out of The Angry Tide. Consider what WG wrote:


Never since Hugh Armitage’s death had there been total ease between them. Love and laughter, she had discovered before this, could exist on a plane which was not at all superficial but which did not penetrate to the depths of one’s being. It had been so five years ago; it was so again now. She longed more than anything for the total submersion in each other that had occurred at other times. Only when it was withdrawn did one observe the tremendous gap that existed between that and the next stage. With him gone, she busied herself in the concerns of the countryside; and, Dwight being also bereft, she saw much of him.


message 6: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments And while it was fragile they seem to have worked things our because we are told and should expect in to see in series 5 that Demelza’s “relationship with Ross (was) back to the early days, warm and full of laughter, intermittently passionate, always friendly. Into that sort of companionship they had been able to draw their two eldest children so that, in spite of occasional disagreements, the accord in the house, the outspokenness, and the unstressed affection was noticeable.”


And we can add, they had another child.


message 7: by Trev (last edited Jul 02, 2018 04:15AM) (new)

Trev | 114 comments Bernie wrote: "And while it was fragile they seem to have worked things our because we are told and should expect in to see in series 5 that Demelza’s “relationship with Ross (was) back to the early days, warm an..."

I think that was from Demelza's point of view, not Ross' view. He still had that acid burning away in his heart and stomach. It took over seven years before they had another child. That is a big price to pay for not saying sorry.

The episode was sad and emotional, with Dwight and Caroline's lines coming straight from the book. Dwight breaking down in Ross' arms was hard to watch.

We now know why Verity appeared in an earlier episode, she was cut out of the Nampara Christmas 1798 along with her husband. Ross set off back for London in January 1799. Does that mean we won't get to hear him say to Verity that 'thoughts and feelings surge up in you like - an angry tide. And it's hard, sometimes it is hard to control that tide.'

At least Ross showed a little anger and a little jealousy. He really meant it when he tore down George's fence. The look on his face when he was studying Hugh's portrait and his words to Demelza on the beach showed that the green eyed monster was lurking not too far below the surface.

Let's hope Lord Falmouth doesn't offer Demelza a copy of Hugh's portrait as a thank you gift for all her 'kindness' to Hugh. She might hang it up close to the magnolia so that Ross can see it when he gets home.


message 8: by Stella (last edited Jul 02, 2018 01:23AM) (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Trev wrote: "Let's hope Lord Falmouth doesn't offer Demelza a copy of Hugh's portrait as a thank you gift for all her 'kindness' to him. She might hang it up close to the magnolia so that Ross can see it when he gets home."

It will be a sign that Demelza has really let go of feelings for Hugh when she gets rid of the Magnolia. I can't remember if she does in the books.


message 9: by Val (new)

Val Ivey | 50 comments Stella wrote: "It will be a sign that Demelza has really let go of feelings for Hugh when she gets rid of the Magnolia. I can't remember if she does in the books. "

No, as a matter of fact it's Ross that tells Demelza not to take it out. Recall that it never prospered in the sandy clay of Nampara's garden.


message 10: by Trev (last edited Jul 02, 2018 04:26AM) (new)

Trev | 114 comments Val wrote: "Stella wrote: "It will be a sign that Demelza has really let go of feelings for Hugh when she gets rid of the Magnolia. I can't remember if she does in the books. "

No, as a matter of fact it's Ro..."


That's right Val - Ross wanted it left there as a reminder of past errors that they both had made. Demelza would probably have preferred to get rid of it as she was obviously embarrassed when Ross ( in their later life) ever brought up the subject of HA. She told a grown up Clowance she had been involved in a 'dire event' and refused to say anything more to her.

I still can't work out why DH has put the magnolia in the house. She knows from the book it was planted in the garden? Is it, like the portrait, to keep reminding us that HA is still on their minds and upsetting them both?

What do you think was going through Ross' mind when he was staring intensely at that portrait of Hugh? He wasn't listening to Lord Falmouth that's for sure.


message 11: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments I think they no longer have permission to film outside the house that was used as Nampara. Perhaps that is why the Magnolia is forced to live indoors.


message 12: by Ken (last edited Jul 02, 2018 08:41AM) (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Stella wrote: "I think they no longer have permission to film outside the house that was used as Nampara. Perhaps that is why the Magnolia is forced to live indoors."
Stella, what was in the vase were just clipping from the magnolia, it's a bush and sometimes a tree. Besides it set up the "not talk" with Verity. Too bad we didn't get the "terrible attraction" passage included.

Trev, I was thinking the same thing about the portrait. Although Ross could use it as a "dart board". Now that Debbie has it hanging at Tregothan, she'll have to fabricate a scene for Demelza to go there and stare longingly in front of Ross. :)) Did they dig `Hugh up to pose for the painting???.... or is it possible narcissistic Hugh did a self portrait? haha


message 13: by Trev (new)

Trev | 114 comments Ken wrote: "Stella wrote: "I think they no longer have permission to film outside the house that was used as Nampara. Perhaps that is why the Magnolia is forced to live indoors."
Stella, what was in the vase w..."


Ken - I think you could be right about Demelza going to Tregothnan , probably while Ross is in London. The production team will have spent too much on that portrait just to use it once.

Lord Falmouth could treat her to a 'Memories of Hugh' tour. After spending an hour in front of the portrait, she could have a tour of the magnolias, before going perusing the library to look for those volumes of poems he mentioned. The volumes are slightly odd, because the word Byron has been overwritten with Armitage on the covers. Nevertheless, some lines from her poems are in there. And what about that lock of his hair (quite fashionable for lovers in those days) in that silver locket which seems to have the name 'Constance' scratched off the back. What will she do with the Hugh miniature given to her by Lord Falmouth at the end of the tour? Keep it with her poems, stand it by the jug with the magnolia in or have it made into a brooch to show off when Ross takes her up to London?


message 14: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments My take on this is that it's Ross who seems unable to move forward yet and Demelza wants back what she once had with Ross. In the series she is impatient for things to be how they were before Hugh. It shows a lack of understanding of Ross' feelings. I recall that it isn't until after they both get back to Cornwall from London that they really begin to come back together.
Trev - you seem to have another perspective - that Demelza still misses Hugh.


message 15: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Stella is absolutely right. I don’t know why your all hung up on Demelza. Go back and look at the exchange from last week. She doesn’t say she does not want to talk about it. That was the division between Ross and George/Elizabeth. I see nothing in book or series except Demelza moving on but it is Ross that can’t. as he says the angry tide keeps rising.


message 16: by Trev (last edited Jul 02, 2018 10:43AM) (new)

Trev | 114 comments Stella wrote: "My take on this is that it's Ross who seems unable to move forward yet and Demelza wants back what she once had with Ross. In the series she is impatient for things to be how they were before Hugh...."

With TV Demelza I have a similar perspective to Ken's. I think she is trying to put the past behind her but not being honest with Ross or herself. I also have difficulty with TV Ross because this is not the honest angry Ross we get in the book.

Near the beginning of episode 4, despite what happens at the end of episode 3, Demelza ( looking as miserable as she has all series) says to Ross.
'Do you think we will ever truly mend?
He replies 'Have we not mended?'
Demelza says
'A little.....But it's like bones Ross. Once it's mended , darest we lean on it again?'
Ross says, 'Surely we have peace now?
Demelza replies - Yes...... But one little storm...............will scatter us..
Ross ends it by saying 'We must take care (kiss on her cheek) to avoid the thunder'

Some great lines, but they are both avoiding the truth as well as the thunder. And of course the thunder catches up with them later. Ross is probably most guilty here for not being honest because it seems like Demelza does want to talk and Ross' empty reassurances don't really help, as witnessed by what he said to her on the beach after Sarah's funeral.

I think the truth is that Demelza has tried to block out her feelings for Hugh, but at the moment she cannot feel in the same way for Ross as she did before Hugh came along. Her infidelity has intervened and upset all her emotions. That is why they are still strangers. I think Hugh is a memory she wants to forget but can't. Ross knows, or thinks he knows, she is not yet over Hugh, so when she says she is, it hurts him even more.


message 17: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments It is difficult to know for sure how Demelza is really feeling towards Ross. However, Demelza is the one who is left behind when Ross goes to London. Letters are infrequent and Demelza expects Ross to be away longer than he actually is in the end because of the mine problems. She has had the space to work through at least some of what she feels about Hugh and for Ross. I still think she has a yearning for her and Ross to be back where they were before Hugh.


message 18: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Trev, I am not sure what you were watching but it looked to me that they were engaged in more than a kiss on the cheek. In every scene from the families playing on the beach to Ross leaving for London they are kissing. Outside of the flower in the vase i don’t see Demelza pinning for Hugh. Just the opposite as she says to Ross after Shara’s funeral, after so long are you sTill questioning me about Hugh. She has moved on and wants him to also move on

For some reason I don’t understand you and Ken seem to think that he could come around if only she told him m that she slept with Hugh but only once and then she came back to him. TV Ross is very well that is what she did and returned. Telling him again will not make things alright. The book Demelza finally gets it right when she thinks about her discussions with Hugh. In her thoughts, that I wish DH has included, she says something like, Hugh trust is an important part of love than does not grow by having a fling and once lost is lost forever. She knows she has lost that forever and Ross will always think that any flirting is the foreplay of something deeper because it once was. They will just have to go in with that hanging over their heads


message 19: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Bernie wrote: "Trev, I am not sure what you were watching but it looked to me that they were engaged in more than a kiss on the cheek. In every scene from the families playing on the beach to Ross leaving for Lon..."
Bernie - you have highlighted how complicated is the situation between Ross and Demelza right now. Demelza is feeling that if she puts a step wrong or says the wrong thing it will set back any reconciliation. She is asking Ross to make it how it was between them before Hugh and he can't because he is deeply hurt and unable to trust her. Yet she seems unable to relate Ross' feelings to hers when he spent the night with Elizabeth. The first week they spend in London goes a long way to healing their relationship and then it all goes wrong.


message 20: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Trev in a post you wrote that it took D and R seven years to have another child. In the beginning of A Stranger from theSea, which takes place in 1810, Demelza says Bella is eight. That means that Bella was born in 1802 and conceived most likely in 1801, which is only a year after Ross returned from London after the duel. It is clear from both the book and TV that D and R were far from celibate even if not totally reconciled starting when he first returned from his initial stay in London,I.e. last weeks episode.


message 21: by Trev (last edited Jul 03, 2018 02:12AM) (new)

Trev | 114 comments Bernie wrote: "Trev in a post you wrote that it took D and R seven years to have another child. In the beginning of A Stranger from theSea, which takes place in 1810, Demelza says Bella is eight. That means that ..."

Bernie - Clowance was born in late 1794. Bella was born in 1802, that's at least a seven year gap if not more. I would say it was a barren time for the couple both emotionally and physically. They might have gone through the motions but that's all it was. Ross was still burning away inside with jealousy and only came round slowly. He seemed to prefer to be away from Demelza and so it was for most of that time. The rancour had mostly disappeared by the time of Stranger in the Sea as WG showed us with the scene in the garden by the magnolia.


message 22: by Trev (new)

Trev | 114 comments Here are a couple of links to information relating to episode 5. Not sure if it should be here or the episode 5 thread but maybe here for speculation.

(view spoiler)


message 23: by Ken (last edited Jul 03, 2018 07:08AM) (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Would someone point out to me the giant effort series Demelza is putting into repairing the "broken bone" of their relationship??? There's no doubt she sees Ross is still in pain over unresolved questions. Yet, she focuses her efforts on Drakes love life and marks time with her own, hoping Ross will not ask a question she can't dodge.
How can she be upset about Ross pulling away, when she's the one responsible. Series Demelza comes off quite hypocritical and insensitive to Ross' feelings, considering she experienced the same feelings after his night with Liz.


message 24: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Ken wrote: "Demelza marks time with her own (love life), hoping Ross will not ask a question she can't dodge...."

Ken you really are hung up with Demelza coming clean as the key to bring Ross around. Unfortunately, there is absolutely nothing on the show or the book that suggests that is the case. In fact, if Ross was waiting for her to give him the opening to raise all the questions that you want her to answer, he missed the chance last week in E4, when she said, "Do you think we will ever truly mend?
He replies 'Have we not mended?' Demelza says, "A little.....But it's like bones Ross. Once it's mended , darest we lean on it again?" Instead of saying "Surely we have peace now?" Ross could have said, "Demelza we will never mend because, as my friend Ken says, I cannot get over what you did to me until you come clean and tell me all that you did with Hugh and that you still are not honest with me because you still grieve for him."

But he did not. I wonder why? Remember it was Ross who commented about "coming clean" when he said, "Sometimes I think talking, explaining, creates as much misunderstanding as it clears away."

Ken, what Demelza and Ross are doing to repairing the "broken bone" of their relationship is what they tell us they are doing after he returns from London after the due; Demelza says, "just go on living – and learning, Ross.’ ‘And loving,’ said Ross. ‘That most of all."


message 25: by Val (new)

Val Ivey | 50 comments Bernie wrote: "what Demelza and Ross are doing to repairing the "broken bone"

Very nicely put Bernie!


message 26: by Doug (last edited Jul 03, 2018 10:18PM) (new)

Doug Whitney | 41 comments Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "Demelza marks time with her own (love life), hoping Ross will not ask a question she can't dodge...."

Ken you really are hung up with Demelza coming clean as the key to bring Ross arou..."


Demelza need not have confessed the details of her affair but I think It would have helped Ross to move on had she expressed regret over the hurt caused and the damage done to their relationship. So far all she has said is that it's in the past. Get over it.


message 27: by Trev (last edited Jul 04, 2018 04:08AM) (new)

Trev | 114 comments Doug wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "Demelza marks time with her own (love life), hoping Ross will not ask a question she can't dodge...."

Ken you really are hung up with Demelza coming clean as the key to ..."


Doug - I agree - she should have said sorry for the pain she knows she has caused Ross to feel. Why didn't she? Series Demelza obviously does regret her adultery with Hugh. She could have said something like. ' I'm sorry for my mistakes which have contributed to our fractured marraige, I really want to mend it and make it strong again.' Will series Demelza say the little word? (Book Demelza never did.) I hope so but I doubt it.


message 28: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Trev, if she regrets her adultery as you say, do you have an explanation as to why she does not say she is sorry?


message 29: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Bernie wrote: "Trev, if she regrets her adultery as you say, do you have an explanation as to why she does not say she is sorry?"

One difference between Ross' infidelity and Demelza's is that what took place between R and E could not be denied or hidden and anyway Ross is quite an open person. Also he expected (wrongly) that Demelza would understand and forgive him. Ross did not expect Demelza to leave him over this.

Demelza is terrified she may lose Ross if she confesses the extent of her fling with Hugh. So she cannot risk confessing. She may want a conversation with Ross but has so far avoided giving any details and clearly has no intention of doing so. She may want it all cleared up but is is her who is preventing it.

Ross' feelings towards Demelza appear to alternate between reassuring Demelza that they are mended and then, seeing Hugh's portrait and having feelings of rage which were also demonstrated in the fight on the beach.

Demelza betrayed Ross before when she helped bring Verity and James Blamey together. She told him about it only when she had no choice. All this might suggest that she is still very insecure about Ross which her comments about Ross going to Trenwith and talking to Elizabeth are an example.


message 30: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments "Demelza we will never mend because, as my friend Ken says, I cannot get over what you did to me until you come clean and tell me all that you did with Hugh and that you still are not honest with me because you still grieve for him." ..."
A bit condescending my friend. but cute

It's not the sex that bothers Ross as much as the emotional entanglement she allowed. If she has room in her heart for 2, why not 10? Yes, I do believe that Demelza needs to reassure Ross more than just "It's over" Why is it over ....because he's dead? Ross can only think he's the "default choice"...
We know Demelza chose Ross over the affair, but Ross doesn't. Her inability to explain her feelings keeps the estrangement going and results in Monk's death.

You ask Trev if she regrets her adultery? Who knows because she won't talk about it, but if a picture is worth a "thousand words" I've seen very few smiles on Demelza's face after "dune's day" Series Demelza (which I assume we're discussing) is far more contrite than the book model. I don't know if she regrets the sex, but I do know she regrets what it's done to her relationship.

Sure Ross is having sex with her, but he's with holding the deeper connection they had before Hugh, and it can't return if Demelza's not honest about her feelings. Basically at this point she a business partner with benefits. Demelza definitely want's more, but she not willing to put in the work. She knows Ross' reassurances are only superficial and he's still wrestling with her infidelity.
Frankly I don't know why she cant have an honest discussion and answers Ross' questions with questions. It can't be because she's afraid of loosing her marriage, because she already has. At least the part that's most important to her, his trust.


message 31: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Ken wrote: "It's not the sex that bothers Ross as much as the emotional entanglement she allowed."

Ken - I cannot agree with this. Certainly in the books Ross seemed very concerned with how far the liaison had gone. I do however agree that Ross needs much more reassurance that she is over her attachment to Hugh. In episode 4 Demelza sobbed for a very long time when Hugh died but what exactly was she sobbing for. Perhaps a mix of things but she had already told Hugh she didn't think they should meet again and she appeared to be be very reluctant to see him after the sand dunes.

I think series Demelza regrets her adultery but not sure about book Demelza. I agree that series Demelza is much more contrite than book Demelza.

You are right that Ross is withholding the deeper connection that was there before Hugh. What more work can Demelza put in to regain Ross' trust and deep love? Telling him all about Hugh is too risky especially as Ross isn't asking about it and perhaps doesn't want to know. Demelza still has plenty more to lose including her children.



message 32: by Ken (last edited Jul 04, 2018 06:39AM) (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Stella wrote: "One difference between Ross' infidelity and Demelza's is that what took place between R and E could not be denied or hidden and anyway Ross is quite an open person...."

Good point, Stella.... but I don't think Demelza "slut walking" in the bedroom late that night, and sobbing "Ask me nothing, Ross" leaves much to the imagination. :))

I'm not sure Demelza has much more to loose at this point, Ross is not going to leave her or kick her out of Nampara.
Ross' reassurances are hollow and Demelza knows that. He's pulled away and left a relationship that's superficial and polite. Demelza is wife in name only, but she's still a good friend.... That's what is eating at Demelza, because she doesn't know how to reconnect on that deeper level.

I thought Debbie would cut short the estrangement, but it looks like she'll keep it 2 yrs. I hope Lord Falmouth doesn't give her the portrait to hang on the wall next to the magnolia..... haha... I don't think Demelza is that cruel and thoughtless, but .....


message 33: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Good point, Stella.... but I don't think Demelza "slut walking" in the bedroom late that night, and sobbing "Ask me nothing, Ross" leaves much to the imagination. :))

True.

I think Demelza cannot bear Ross emotionally at a distance from her. Remember series 1 and Ross' reaction to her going behind his back to help Verity and Blamey.
You are right that Ross' reassurances are hollow and that their relationship is superficial and polite. Good point though I do feel he moves towards her and then pulls away, perhaps reminding himself he cannot trust her.

It's looking like the relationship won't change until after the Monk Adderley encounter and when they are both back in Cornwall. Is that as long as 2 years?


message 34: by Ken (last edited Jul 04, 2018 07:52AM) (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Stella wrote: "It's looking like the relationship won't change until after the Monk Adderley encounter and when they are both back in Cornwall. Is that as long as 2 years? ..."

Yes, Stella, it is...... Ross' first trip to Parliament was the Fall of 97' and he took Demelza to London the Fall of 99'
I agree nothing is going to change until Ross can put it behind him by shooting Monk in the crotch. Is there more confirmation needed that he was shooting Hugh. lol
Ross is happy to have sex with her and spend time with her and the kids..... he's not pretending to enjoy her company, but he is with holding the part she wants most.

I think she's going to have a heart to heart with Dwight next episode..... "Is it a sin to seek happiness for our selves?", and then a hug. Of course the British rags are insinuating they might have an affair, which we both know is BS.... Unlike Hugh, Dwight is an honorable man. I don't think Demelza would ever offer that under any circumstances. If so, Debbie is really doing a hatched job on the book character.


message 35: by Trev (last edited Jul 04, 2018 08:53AM) (new)

Trev | 114 comments Ken wrote: "Stella wrote: "It's looking like the relationship won't change until after the Monk Adderley encounter and when they are both back in Cornwall. Is that as long as 2 years? ..."

Yes, Stella, it is...."


Bernie asked me why Demelza hasn't apologised. Series Demelza spent the whole of episode 1 showing us she had regretted the encounter with Hugh and, unlike the book, she determined straight away not to see him again. The burning of the most erotic poem was symbolic of her wanting to destroy any memories of that physical encounter with Hugh. Her reaction to Hugh's gloating about it straight afterwards also showed that. It was only his illness that brought her back to him. If we follow that up it seems only natural that an apology to Ross would follow, not necessarily for the adultery, because she wants to hide that in case her life with Ross is laid to waste, but for the damage her relationship with Hugh has done to their marraige. Why hasn't series Demelza apologised for that? I've no idea - she should have done.

I agree with Stella that it's different with book Demelza because her remorse is less clear cut and she didn't overtly choose Ross over Hugh. However, reading on through the books, I was still hoping for an apology, even to the end of Bella Poldark.
Series Ross is finding it difficult to forgive Demelza or trust what she says. A sincere apology would go a long way towards helping him forgive. In my view it this lack of apology which (view spoiler)


message 36: by Trev (new)

Trev | 114 comments Bernie wrote: "Trev, if she regrets her adultery as you say, do you have an explanation as to why she does not say she is sorry?"

Bernie - Your question, along with Ken's and Stella's comments have made me think again about why Demelza did not apologise. If we stick with series Demelza, as we should, almost all the Demelza scenes in episodes one and two were indicating that even though she still had strong feelings for Hugh, she wanted to end their relationship for the sake of her marriage. The 'It is not in my power' put the cap on it for me. The emotion of Hugh's death just muddied the waters and made it worse for Ross and Demelza.

Since the limited confession she made to Ross after coming home from Caroline's, their relationship has been in limbo. An apology from Demelza with some further explanation could help to put things right by helping Ross towards forgiveness, something he needs to do because of all the mistrust and jealousies swirling around in his head.

The problem, I think, is that Demelza is so worried about Ross finding out about the adultery she prefers to say nothing in case their conversation leads to it. Demelza might think that Ross believes that her 'Ask me nothing' jaunt was just the ''I wish I was two people' day out. Some kissing maybe but nothing more. We know Ross thinks otherwise.

Demelza is basically an honest person even though she has badly deceived Ross about Hugh. How can she apologise and ask for forgiveness for only part of her deceit, she would not be being honest with herself or Ross? So it would be asking forgiveness for all of it, (including the adultery) or nothing and she can't risk losing everything. I have suggested that she apologises for her 'mistakes' but maybe she can't trust herself not to blurt out all the gory details if they have a heart to heart.


message 37: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Trev wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Trev, if she regrets her adultery as you say, do you have an explanation as to why she does not say she is sorry?"

Trev - you wrote that Demelza is basically an honest person but I disagree. Demelza lied to Ross when, in series one, she went on a mission to re-unite Verity and Balmey by telling him she was going to buy a cloak. She withheld information from Ross about her attempts to re-unite Verity and Blamy. She is now withholding information about the nature of her relationship with Hugh. Perhaps Ross doesn't really want to know. He is not making any effort to find out.

Demelza may be right in worrying about how Ross might react to hearing about what really happened with Hugh. In the books I recall that Demelza doesn't pester Ross about their marriage not mending.

You may be right about her not trusting herself to keep what really happened to herself. Although Ross is leaning towards believing that Demelza was unfaithful, he seems to not want to know whether she was. Their relationship is fragile and they both seem to be tip toeing around each other trying not to destroy the marriage.



message 38: by Trev (new)

Trev | 114 comments Stella wrote: "Trev wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Trev, if she regrets her adultery as you say, do you have an explanation as to why she does not say she is sorry?"

Trev - you wrote that Demelza is basically an honest ..."


It's possible that the 'knowing' would be the thunder that shattered their marriage completely. But I do think that it's the not knowing that is turning Ross into a powder keg ready to explode.

I take your point about Demelza's previous deceits regarding Verity, but I make a distinction between the things she has done, sometimes impulsively, that she thought were in the best interest of others and the deceit with Hugh which involved a great deal of personal selfishness.

Ross is asking himself questions about what went on all the time. We have witnessed this when he has been staring at Hugh's portrait, smashing down George's fence, punching the Illuggan miners, hacking away at the rock face etc. He is just trying to put on a brave ( and not very convincing) face when he's around Demelza.

I agree with you about them tip toeing around each other. Ross is just as worried about losing Demelza as she is about losing him. Demelza might think she would lose everything if she admitted her adultery and apologised but, just like she said to Hugh, it is not in Ross' power to throw her out.


message 39: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Given were we are it is very hard for me to separate the book from the TV versions. That said neither versions of Ross seem very interested in further questioning Demelza except to know if she still grieved for Hugh. I think the last thing either Ross wants is to know if Demelza’s infidelity extended to the physical. Given that it is clear that she felt deeply for him he clings to the hope that it was all emotional and he can possible claim the he still had that left. But you guys seem to be intent in taking that away from him by stepping naked the adultery of his wife. If either Ross really wanted to clear that up and know for sure all he had to do is ask. But neither ask!

Ross said in the Angry Tide that sometimes it is better not to talk things out because it only leads to more misunderstandings. Living, loving and time will heel to the extent that it can but a major theme of WG saga is that, as Demelza realizes as she reflects on what happened soon after her tryst with Hugh, trust lost is lost forever. She and Ross will just have to live with it, as Ross reflects on his love for her in Paris in 1815. The shadows of Hugh and Elizabeth will shade their relationship forever, or as far as WG takes us, which is 1820.


message 40: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Trev you wrote "It's possible that the 'knowing' would be the thunder that shattered their marriage completely. But I do think that it's the not knowing that is turning Ross into a powder keg ready to explode."

This makes sense to me and I am grateful to have this clarified.

I agree that the deceit with Hugh involved a great deal of personal selfishness including putting her relationship with her children in jeopardy. I also agree with you that Demelza's infidelity is tormenting Ross. I think you are saying that neither of them really wants to talk details about the Hugh affair and I agree.

I don't recall Demelza saying to Hugh that it is not in Ross' power to throw her out. When was that said? Sometimes I have difficulty with the sound which comes across as muffled in places.

This is a helpful post for me as it clarifies some things.


message 41: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Bernie wrote: "I have no wish to take away from Ross his need to not know about the nature of Demelza's relationship with Hugh. Neither do I wish to argue that Demelza should tell Ross everything that happened between her and Hugh. I think Demelza realises that Ross not asking the question about how far the relationship with Hugh went means he doesn't want to know but the possibility torments him.

Series 4 is portraying that trust lost is lost forever although it grows less painful in time.



message 42: by Trev (last edited Jul 05, 2018 01:44AM) (new)

Trev | 114 comments Stella wrote: "Trev you wrote "It's possible that the 'knowing' would be the thunder that shattered their marriage completely. But I do think that it's the not knowing that is turning Ross into a powder keg ready..."

Stella - You are right to say that Demelza did not say to Hugh 'It is not in Ross' power to throw her out.' My meaning was that when Demelza said to Hugh 'It is not in my power' ( to carry on with their affair) I think she said that because her love for Ross was too powerful to do anything but stay with Ross and reject Hugh. I also think that Ross' love for Demelza is also too powerful for him to reject Demelza even though he is burning up with jealousy and mistrust.

Both you and Bernie have rightly highlighted how the series is focusing on the mistrust that has arisen between them. I would have liked to have heard the words from the book - 'A marriage without warmth, without trust - a trust that we have both betrayed.'


message 43: by Stella (last edited Jul 05, 2018 04:39AM) (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Trev wrote: "My meaning was that when Demelza said to Hugh 'It is not in my power' ( to carry on with their affair) I think she said that because her love for Ross was too powerful to do anything but stay with Ross and reject Hugh."

This was my thinking on Demelza's words 'it is not in my power' but I wasn't sure although I couldn't think of another meaning. It sounds better than 'I do not love you'. Like you, I wish DH would have used more of the words from the books. Nothing can better WG's words.



message 44: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments We will have to see how DH plays out the final reconciliation. As I remember the book Ross finally comes to understand that if he is to stay with Demelza he must control his Angry Tide because it almost cost him his life and did cost the life of another. He never really gets over it. Trust lost is lost forever, but love is not and that is WG’s message, and life goes on.


message 45: by Stella (last edited Jul 05, 2018 08:20AM) (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Bernie wrote: "We will have to see how DH plays out the final reconciliation. As I remember the book Ross finally comes to understand that if he is to stay with Demelza he must control his Angry Tide ......" "Trust lost is lost forever, but love is not....."

Bernie - you are absolutely right in the last sentence above. I found this hard to read as it's so sad but true. There can never be the same trust again.





SPOILER ALERT!!!!

But what of Demelza? Does she feel she can never trust Ross again? It doesn't feel like it and especially after Elizabeth dies. Ross' flirting with Harriet in the later books doesn't seem to bother her - presumably because she does trust Ross. What do you think?


message 46: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments In Bella Poldark at the end she says that if she answered her son as to does Ross love her she would say things were not good. She is questioning his feeling for Stella W. And even after his assurance she is not completely sure. But that is 20 years after London with two more children. Even in the last book we see the shadows of E and H.


message 47: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Bernie wrote: "In Bella Poldark at the end she says that if she answered her son as to does Ross love her she would say things were not good. She is questioning his feeling for Stella W. And even after his assura..." -
I think you mean 'Harriet Warleggan

Bernie - I cannot find Ross' reassurance of his feelings for Demelza, only the part at the start of Chapter 9 of the last book when Harry asks Demelza if she and Ross are not in love any more. 'Bella' has the worst possible ending I think in terms of Ross and Demelza's relationship and yes there are shades still of E and R. I cannot find any suggestion that Hugh is still around. It is Valentine that keeps E alive in Ross' thoughts and feelings. But Ross does realise that he must put all this behind him for Demelza's sake. I prefer to focus on The Twisted Sword as the end of the Poldark saga as it is more positive than Bella. I think WG should not have written Bella. Apparently he never re-read the previous books so forgot many things in previous books.


message 48: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Stella look to what Ross says starting on Page 643.

“I should have said that in my life I’ve loved only two women. Right? The first married my direst enemy. The second married me. She has been my lover, my companion, my housekeeper, the mother of my children, the –the keeper of my conscience. She is comparable in my eyes to no other woman. I would not be a human being if I had not sometimes developed other sorts of affections, other mild fancies, other but not contrary loyalties. Sometimes they have been unnecessarily strong, especially maybe towards the difficult young man I suspected of being my son. I expect a feeling of guilt came into it too! But following that and building on that supposition I shall continue, whether I wish it or not, to have a strong interest in the fortune of his son. It can be no other way, but unless my wife demands that my every interest shall be exclusive to her, then she has all my steadfast support, interest, concern, sympathy, love and loving kindness. If I have in any way neglected my true family these last few weeks I ask their pardon and will try to do better. That do?’ After a minute she said in a low voice: ‘I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.’ ‘Why do you want to laugh?’ ‘Because it was a lovely speech which fetched tears to my eyes but spoken in a light tone that made me wonder if you were being –what is the word? –cynical about it. Are you, Ross?’ He stared at her for a long moment, looking straight into her eyes. ‘The answer is no. But you should not need to be told it.’ It was strange, thought Demelza, that while such handsome words should bring a complete reconciliation nearer, a lingering trace of the gap was still there.“


message 49: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Bernie wrote: "Stella look to what Ross says starting on Page 643.

“I should have said that in my life I’ve loved only two women. Right? The first married my direst enemy. The second married me. She has been my..."


Bernie - thank you so much for this. I had forgotten it. It seems to me that there are shadows of E but not of H. The existence of Valentine has made it impossible for Demelza to forget May 9th when Ross went to Trenwith in a state of rage. Infidelities in marriage have sad, sometimes catastrophic consequences. However, Demelza had not long before had a terrifying experience and was almost certainly not recovered from it. Ross almost died in the fire. I have wondered before whether Demelza was feeling that yet again E was still very much alive through her son.


message 50: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments This is the only reference to Hugh in Bella Poldark:

“One afternoon Demelza spent an hour in her garden. At this time of year there was little that a storm could hurt, but one or two of the roses had sent up tall shoots which might crack at the root if they swayed about too much. A stick in support would be a good thing. Also that foreign tree from the Carolinas, which Hugh Armitage had brought and they had planted against the protection of the house wall, still clung obstinately to life though making little progress in this unsuitable soil.”


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