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Mar—All About Love (2016) > Is jealousy part of true love?

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message 1: by [deleted user] (last edited Jun 18, 2018 02:08PM) (new)

Hello Everyone !

I have finished this book a couple of weeks ago and I realized something. I do not remember that jealousy was approached in the book. Maybe it was but it did not mark me. I must admit I am a bit surprised that a book about love (I really liked it by the way) does not talk about this feeling and being jealous because it seems something important and redundant in relationship (not always of course). Maybe it was considered as the same than abuse and dishonesty but I would like to discuss about some points.

Sometime I have heard people saying that one person was jealous in specific situations and, according to them it was a proof of love.

So is jealousy really an evidence of love or a proof of being possessive?

Also, jealousy occurs when we would like something that someone else is having or have. In the case of relationship from what jealousy may rise? Attention? Time and energy spent?

I guess that everyone had experienced jealousy in some level of intensity either in a relationship or somewhere else. Do we have to fight jealousy or is it something to accept (of course it depends on the situation)? How to do that?

And of course for you, what is jealousy? (Better to define it first I suppose).

I know that this book has been suggested more than 2 years ago but it is never too late to talk about interesting points and to develop ourselves in order to act in our daily life :)


message 2: by Gerd (last edited Jun 18, 2018 09:08AM) (new)

Gerd | 428 comments I vividly recall a girl once telling me, if you're not getting jealous (as the girl I had a crush on at the time talked to another guy) you're not really in love.

I see the same sentiment on repeat in novels.

Don't really believe it, tbh.
When you're in love you care about that person, when you're jealous you only care about yourself.


message 3: by Hannah (new)

Hannah | 22 comments Bleh, no. I don't find jealousy attractive or proof of love at all. I think it's impossible to never be jealous of anything; I'm often jealous in a minor way of some things my sister-in-law can provide for her children that I can't afford for mine. But I think it's something that should be fought. Most of the jealousies I've witnessed in romantic relationships stem from insecurities and mistrust, not from any great romantic commitment.


message 4: by Benarji (new)

Benarji Anand | 153 comments Well, first and foremost, I think that we need to accept that there is nothing wrong in being jealous. The only issue is what we do with that emotion. A lot of issues in life is a matter of dealing with situations and not many are well equipped with the ability to deal. That usually ensures a jealousy situation to end in quarrels and bickering or probably even in worst cases, violence. Well, apart from violence and excessive aggression, if is perfectly to react in ways that one would deem necessary. I think the level of acceptability always comes down to the tolerance level of one's significant other.

Going back to the question, is jealousy part of true love? I think jealousy is a state of underdeveloped emotion and part of an unhealthy thought process. If you have played video games, you would have played some games that gives us points to develop our characters as we level up. We use that points to improve our endurance, dexterity, knowledge, agility, etc. So, if you use the points too much on just one or a few attribute, you become imbalanced. Similarly, in life, we have strength and weaknesses, which we have either consciously or unconsciously trained ourselves. If we underdeveloped our character, we will drag on those neglected skills to our adulthood until it is addressed.

Jealousy isn't necessary in a healthy relationship. If a woman expects for a man to be "jealous" in the relationship, what she really wants is your thoughtfulness and concern of her. She wants your action. So call or message her when she's at work, out with friends, shopping, or when she's not back at late hours. Ask about her friends and colleagues, or even why she is coming back late. Well, if it is possible to express jealousy in a healthy manner, we should. Our woman do need our attention but of course, it comes down to a woman as well. Not every one of them loves an over-concerned significant others. It would then boil down to issues of trust and leads to series of arguments. So, most importantly, know what kind of woman that you are dating but women often uses jealousy as a mean to get your attention.


message 5: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1091 comments Mod
I like what Benarji says. Well, first and foremost, I think that we need to accept that there is nothing wrong in being jealous. The only issue is what we do with that emotion

Jealousy, like all emotions, is a mark that some needs are not being met. And it's up to you and your partner to communicate that issue and the solution. (Extremes outbursts of that emotion, however, are to be avoided. )

- If you have a good relationship, you'll both put some time and energy into it.
- If you have a poor relationship, then you'll find only one person trying to put time and energy into.

I'm also of the mindset that arguing is a healthy sign. Can you have an opposite opinion than your significant other? If so, how does that sit with the relationship? If you can't work around it, great news! Then you know not to waste your time. If you can work around it, great news! You know someone will always be honest with you.


message 6: by Ashley (new)

Ashley (itsashleychristine) It would depend


message 7: by [deleted user] (new)

Maybe I did not get what you said Benarji. Do you mean that sometime people should ask "why are you coming back late?" ?

Also, I would like to read more about "women often uses jealousy as a mean to get your attention." if possible. Is anyone agree or disagree?


message 8: by Benarji (new)

Benarji Anand | 153 comments @Florian well, I meant asking, "what time is she coming home" or "where is she going" sort of question. Well, be inquisitive whenever possible.

Also, it is part of women's subtlety, for them to use jealousy. They are the same person who will hit you and then come to comfort you when you are crying from the hit. XD Well, thats the gist about it but don't think too deep about it. Even if they do, they'll deny it but like I said, it isn't about the information, it is about what you do with it. There is no use of having all the information and knowledge of the world but not knowing how to apply it in practicality.


message 9: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Pam wrote: "I'm also of the mindset that arguing is a healthy sign. ..."

Reminds me of a line from a book or movie where one character says to another that the reason they never argue is that he not cares enough about his partner.

Didn't understand that then, but now I guess it's true, you don't argue with people that leave you emotionally cold.


message 10: by Hannah (new)

Hannah | 22 comments You all make great points about jealousy being a natural emotion. On reflection, when I said it "should be fought," I meant the negativity toward others that often stems from jealousy. I think that honesty in a relationship is really important, and I'm of the idea that no one should play with his or her significant other's emotions. I do take issue with the idea that women are bipolar in their affections and/or will deny it afterward. Not all women are like this, and some men are like that, just as with anything. Likewise, men want attention and affection just like women. None of what we're discussing differs by gender--personality type would make a much bigger difference.


message 11: by [deleted user] (new)

Hello!

Benarji, maybe I did not understand what you meant but to me being inquisitive seems to be toxic in a relationship. Being too curious about someone else business does not seem right in my opinion. It is kind of intrusive or having the will to control. Maybe for some people it is fine but that is not who I am or the path I want to walk in.

Once again, maybe I did not get what you were meaning in that case please let me know :)


message 12: by Susan (last edited Jun 19, 2018 10:54PM) (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) Benarji,

First you said theres nothing wrong with being jealous. Then you said, “ I think jealousy is a state of underdeveloped emotion and part of an unhealthy thought process. That sounds like you do see something wrong with it.

Jealousy is a normal human emotion. When you say it isn’t “necessary,” it’s like saying fear isn’t necessary. If your wife has become close friends with another man, you might feel jealous. That man could be a threat to your relationship with her. Maybe being jealous is necessary. It’s a warning bell saying your relationship may be in danger.


message 13: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Susan wrote: "If your wife has become close friends with another man, you might feel jealous. That man could be a threat to your relationship with her. Maybe being jealous is necessary. It’s a warning bell saying your relationship may be in danger.
..."


But it seems to me that when the friendship to another man (or vice versa) can pose a threat to a relationship, that relationship would be doomed anyway?


message 14: by Pam (last edited Jun 20, 2018 10:07AM) (new)

Pam | 1091 comments Mod
Gerd wrote: But it seems to me that when the friendship to another man (or vice versa) can pose a threat to a relationship, that relationship would be doomed anyway?

That's the issue, is what to both parties consider threatening behavior?

Pop culture would have us believe any sort of relationship or regular correspondence with a gender you are attracted to (m-w, m-m, f-f etc) means that you're a cheater. And if that was the case then I'm hosed! Talking to all the men here without the supervision of my significant other. Let alone working alongside men at work! (Cue sarcasm)

Figure out your boundaries. What means cheating to you?
- talking to someone in the gender you're attracted to
- texting them casually
- texting them regularly
- texting them nonstop
- hanging out unsupervised at social events. (I.e. without you)
- hanging out alone together without you or others.
- etc

There are shades of grey involved to each line. Where do you feel comfortable? Where does your partner feel comfortable?

My sister once had a guy cheat on her. She caught him getting head from some girl. The bastard's response was that he wasn't cheating because he wasn't having sex which was one of their rules. She defined sex as anything that gave you release, he defined it as vaginal penetration.

She ended up (stupidly) forgiving him because she accepted his definition. But informed him that her definition would be the one they use going forward. (He ended up cheating on her again to the surprise of only her) but the point remains... Save yourself some agony of understanding what does your partner mean. Where are their lines.

Especially as we move forward in the MeTo world where Consent is huge. Understand what you are consenting to, and what you object to.


message 15: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments I think it can be universally agreed upon that a person that cheats on you and then tries to make thin excuses for it, or to deflect blame, can not be trusted as a partner and isn't worth staying with.


message 16: by Elle (new)

Elle  | 5 comments In my humble opinion No.


message 17: by [deleted user] (new)

Gerd wrote: "I think it can be universally agreed upon that a person that cheats on you and then tries to make thin excuses for it, or to deflect blame, can not be trusted as a partner and isn't worth staying w..."

Well depends on the situation and on the definition of cheating you have.


message 18: by Gerd (last edited Jun 20, 2018 10:10PM) (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Not sure if I can agree on "depends on the situation" - I can't see how the "situation" is supposed to change anything there.

I do guess people's idea of cheating can vary greatly, but then if one has a notable narrower perception of cheating than the other partner does, the above still stands true, can't trust each other - literally in that case.
They simply won't be able. And it's not worth staying with someone you can't/won't trust, it sure would become emotionally too exhausting.


message 19: by [deleted user] (new)

Ok. Is kissing cheating in your opinion? Then what about someone kissing someone else (who is in couple) without consent. In that case it is a matter of will.

To me cheating is a matter of will and action. If one is in the action but does not want, then there is no cheating. If one has the desire to see frequently someone else at night (for example) having a date that do not imply any sexual actions then there is no cheating because there is no act. Of course if this desire is constant, the person should consider his/her relationship.

Also, let's take another example: I am in a relationship with a woman I am in USA, she is in France. Something emotionally tough happens to her but I cannot be physically by her side to fully support her emotionally, it is possible that she meets someone and then cheat on me for a short period and then realize her mistake. Does it mean I cannot trust her anymore? If she tells me about what she did pointing out it was a mistake, does it mean that I won't be able to trust her anymore?

I think in that I would like to forgive. Of course I say I would like, because I am single and not in that situation but I believe that everyone makes mistakes and that people who really are sorry maybe should be forgiven. It does not means that everything would be like before. And usually you see when someone is really sorry because he/she does everything to not make the mistakes again, that is the best evidence and in a relationship that is one of the best proof of love.


message 20: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Florian wrote: " Then what about someone kissing someone else (who is in couple) without consent.
..."


That's actually assault then, and not cheating.


Also, let's take another example: I am in a relationship with a woman I am in USA, she is in France. Something emotionally tough happens to her but I cannot be physically by her side to fully support her emotionally, it is possible that she meets someone and then cheat on me for a short period and then realize her mistake. Does it mean I cannot trust her anymore? If she tells me about what she did pointing out it was a mistake, does it mean that I won't be able to trust her anymore?
..."


You did read the part which said (in different words) "cheaters that do not own up to their actions", right?


Cheating is not the same as making a mistake, cheating is a conscious decision to deceive your partner.


message 21: by [deleted user] (last edited Jun 21, 2018 03:45PM) (new)

Maybe I missed that part because I potentially did not understand it. I'll check the comments when I'll have some time at home ;)

Edit: I do not see the part you are talking about Gerd, can you tell me where is it please? I am probably "blind" or tired :s

Maybe there is a "universal" definition of cheating on someone but just like you pointed out meanings/definition vary. What is a "mistake" for me does not mean it is not cheating on someone. You say that my example is an example of being assaulted and I agree with you but someone may have another opinion about that and could reply "that is your claim! You said you were not consent but I think you were and you are trying to find an excuse." I am trying to point out that this is a point of view about what one thinks the situation is or not, I suppose.

One can cheat on someone else because of a specific situation for some reasons and then realize that she/he should not have done that and ask for forgiveness to her/his beloved. I think it is not because I have done something bad and consciously that I cannot be trusted anymore (to be clear, to the best of my knowledge I have not done anything bad ok, I am just using "I" just like I could use "we" or "you" ;) )people change. I know a lot of people argue with that, because accepting that people change obviously imply that we lower our defenses and that we take a risk to be somehow hurt.

Just to be clear about forgiving someone, it does not mean forget and it is not (should not be) a power we have on someone else to make her/him feeling guilty and get our revenge. To me forgiving someone is something important because I basically lower down my defense after being hurt and if the person is a bad one he/she has the possibility to hurt me again unless I forgive and walk away from this person but is it still forgiveness? Probably not because, to me forgiveness is based on trust, I guess I only forgive people I feel I can trust.

I feel I am a bit off-topic but things are interconnected.

Edit: I agree with you, if you have a definition of "cheating on someone" that varies lot compare to your patner's definition it is difficult to trust each other.


message 22: by Susan (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) This is such a complicated subject!

Even if someone knows they made a mistake and asks for forgiveness, they might still cheat again.

Just like if you get close to someone who isn’t your husband, often your relationship is not doomed and can be repaired.

That’s what makes relationships so interesting. They’re all different.


message 23: by Gerd (last edited Jun 21, 2018 10:16PM) (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Florian wrote: "Edit: I do not see the part you are talking about Gerd, can you tell me where is it please? I am probably "blind" or tired :s"

This part:
"a person that cheats on you and then tries to make thin excuses for it, or to deflect blame, can not be trusted as a partner"

Which actually works pretty universally, if someone tries to shift blame for his actions or to downplay what s/he did - do not trust them any further!
(Unless they are kids, that is, kids do have first to develop a sound moral compass)


Agreed, kissing is a difficult topic, and am not sure if kissing - even so called "French kissing" is cheating. It certainly is skimming the border if you promised your partner not have overly intimate relationships with other people.
And yes, a lot of times it will come down to perception, but even then, if you see a kiss already as "Cheating" it sure shows that you lack the sufficient basic trust necessary to make your relationship work, which then still means IMO, you should better break up yet instead of later on.

I love the movie line "Circumstances change. People, I'm not so sure about."
It reflects my sentiment pretty closely.
Yes, people are capable of change, but usually not hard and fast, and is it really worth the time and work to wait for them doing it, if at all?


I'm completely on board with forgiving (or at least working on forgiveness) when your partner does honestly apologize, if they show themselves to be willing to work on the relationship and to make amends.

But if they refuse to acknowledge they did something wrong to begin with, they are basically telling you "F* you, I have no respect for you" in the most obvious way possible.


So, to return to the topic (The Return of the Topic, part III of the epic) in a sort of ways.
If jealousy is warning you about a danger to your relationship, it seems a strongly misguided warning sign.
After all the one posing the danger to your relationship is the person you're with, not the other one, and really, there's not much that could done about it.
Lover's will love and cheater's will cheat - in both cases you had better let them go.


message 24: by Sujatha (new)

Sujatha Blr | 1 comments So is jealousy really an evidence of love or a proof of being possessive?

- yes. yes. yes.

A bit of jealous is always evident and prevalent in love. When it turns into obsession/stalky-symptoms or envy then it starts to hurt the lovers, their relationship and many more. But a tad amount of jealous is cute, and an attractive factor to the other partner.


message 25: by Michaela (new)

Michaela (yuvilee) | 124 comments Gerd wrote: "But it seems to me that when the friendship to another man (or vice versa) can pose a threat to a relationship, that relationship would be doomed anyway?"


I wouldn't agree there. Because this view gives emotions and fears too much impact in my opinion. Of course a friendship to another person can feel threatening to your relationship. The question is if you can still accept it and move on, or if you act on this fear/threat. Fear and also jealousy are only emotions. You cannot consciously prevent yourself from feeling emotions, you could try to block them out, but even that would be really suppression of feelings will become very exhausting over time.

But what you have control over, is how much power you give these emotions. Do you act on them? Do you reationalize them? Do you see them as what they are, emotions, or as realities?
If you are able to see them as emotions and choose not to act on them, i do not think that your relationship is doomed. But if you accept the threat you feel as a reality and start to act because of that, then i'm not so sure. But even then you could start communicating with your partner and find a compromise with which both of you are able to live.


message 26: by Jeremy (new)

Jeremy Thompson | 62 comments Short answer - No
Long answer - No, but it is not uncommon. It does provide an opportunity to communicate.


message 27: by Susan (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) Gerd,

Why do you say jealousy is “a strongly misguided warning sign“?

Isn’t it possible that it’s just a gut feeling that something is wrong?


message 28: by Benarji (new)

Benarji Anand | 153 comments @floarian it is a matter of perspective. Good couples respect (each others space, great couples communicate


message 29: by Benarji (new)

Benarji Anand | 153 comments @Susan smokers know that smoking leads to cancer but yet they still smoke. We all are guilty of having unhealthy habits in one way or another (not necessarily smoking). It is bad but we still do it. Something similar to that. Jealousy is definitely an underdeveloped emotion and it is unhealthy.


message 30: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Susan wrote: "Gerd,

Why do you say jealousy is “a strongly misguided warning sign“?

Isn’t it possible that it’s just a gut feeling that something is wrong?"


Well, jealousy as I understand sees the person your partner is with as threat, when the threat, if there is one, lies in the relationship with your partner or how he/she acts on it.


message 31: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1091 comments Mod
Gerd wrote: "Well, jealousy as I understand sees the person your partner is with as threat, when the threat, if there is one, lies in the relationship with your partner or how he/she acts on it.

Oh so true.

How often do we think the problem lies with the supposed temptation and not the tempted? If you're worried that your partner is straying... Then that's on you and your partner...not on the other person


message 32: by Hannah (new)

Hannah | 22 comments Gerd,

I don't agree that a relationship is doomed if you view kissing as cheating. I view kissing on the lips to be cheating (not if someone else forces themself on you, which I think we've all agreed is sexual assault). Kissing friends on the lips is not common where I live, and most people I know would consider that cheating.

I take a harder line on cheating than a lot of you, though, it seems. To forgive means (to me) that you're willing to move past something as an individual. Just because I've forgiven my partner for cheating does not mean I could stay with them. I need absolute trust with my SO and would lose at least 20% trust after a cheating situation, so the relationshipfor me could not continue. I believe in the ability of humans to change, but I also know that addicts tend to pick up the same habits when returned to the same situations with the same people. As far as I see it, the future for those two people would be better apart. This is the best choice for my personality, anyway. I imagine others could function differently in the same relationship.


message 33: by Daphne (new)

Daphne | 6 comments Jealousy is a sign of love for the fact that the person cannot imagine their significant other with someone else besides themselves.

True love is where the jealousy doesn’t get in the way of their relationship. They are willing to communicate and trust each other so jealousy isn’t a problem.


message 34: by Stephanie Bianca (new)

Stephanie Bianca | 2 comments I believe jealousy is an indication of one’s insecurity. For instance, if a someone is jealous of another person, then they’re not secure in who they are. Likewise, if a lover/husband/wife is envious of who their significant other is spending time with, then that person isn’t confident in the love that they share.

How can envy be a sign of love when it is a selfish emotion? It can’t. Love is humbly placing your loved one’s needs above your own. Love should be selfless, trustworthy and resolute. With that in mind, we’re imperfect beings. Sometimes, we can’t help being envious. And that’s natural. As long as we confront it early on, and make sure that we don’t have unchecked jealousy that could lead to hatred.

Whether you glamorize or defend jealousy, you’re at a loosing end, it can never fulfill the pure beauty of a true love.


message 35: by Terri (new)

Terri I think that there are tons of definitions of jealousy floating around in this discussion.

Keith and Bianca seem to define jealousy in terms of insecurity and control where you're basically putting your partner in a cage. I don't think this is always the case.

I'll speak for myself. I'm in a long distance relationship. We're on two different continents. I am unashamedly jealous of every single person who gets to see my boyfriend on a regular basis, even his cousin. No, I'm not concerned about his actions. No, I'm not trying to possess him. It's more like Daphne said, when you love someone so much that you want to be with them as much as possible. And actually, IMO the jealousy very much helps because it makes me cherish the little things way more.

I think jealousy is seen as one of the "bad" emotions and as such it's dismissed without a second glance. But, like Benarji originally said, it's neither good or bad. It depends on how you respond to it.


message 36: by James (new)

James Corprew Terri wrote: "I think that there are tons of definitions of jealousy floating around in this discussion.

Keith and Bianca seem to define jealousy in terms of insecurity and control where you're basically puttin..."


I agree with this.

While there are some valid points in regards to Jealousy and insecurity issues. Sometimes those insecurity issues are valid especially when you really care about someone who has repeatedly betrayed your trust and your affection by cheating with other people.

As pointed out jealousy has its ugly side especially if you lash out or try using it as a control method. But, feeling jealous about someone you actually care about even if they dont treat you with the same respect doesnt make you the problem.

Far to often we dont hold those accountable for their own behavior when it comes to relationships and how they treat those who literally adore them. I learned that lesson at a young age and it changed my whole perception on how women are often perceived as the victims in such cases. Women can be just as destructive and deceitful so i learned a very hard lesson back then.

I was certainly jealous and angry about the cheating and i while it took an emotional toll on me i never physically harmed her even though in my mind i wanted to strangle the shit out her. It was easy to understand why people lose it when you care about someone who simply uses you and treats you like garbage. But, i took whatever physical anger i had and punched a door or busted my tail light out on my car. I knew enough to know going beyond that would of ruined my life and she wasnt worth it. Tough lesson, but i learned from it.

With my wife i can say that i do trust her but that doesnt mean one day i could find myself left for someone else. Life is strange like that sometimes but being with her for 16 years i think we are in good shape. But now that im older even if it did happen im not sure i would be jealous or even angry about it. Maybe a little hurt but ive discovered as ive gotten older that worrying about what i cant control is to taxing emotionally.

As i stated, there are times when jealousy is used to control someone in a relationship, but in others its a warning tool that some people should heed when certain signs start to appear that your partner is being unfaithful, etc.


message 37: by Hannah (new)

Hannah | 22 comments Being afraid of harm is absolutely a motivation for someone to stay with a SO. My mother's first marriage was incredibly abusive, and she was afraid of her husband for years. It was only when the threat of violence was shifting to her children that she could see it from a different perspective--that leaving him was necessary and worth the risk. This has nothing to do with jealousy, I was just responding to the last comment.


message 38: by Michaela (last edited Jul 03, 2018 05:21AM) (new)

Michaela (yuvilee) | 124 comments I like the definition of jealousy by psychology today:
"Jealousy is a complex emotion that encompasses feelings ranging from fear of abandonment to rage and humiliation. Jealousy strikes both men and women and is most typically aroused when a person perceives a threat to a valued relationship from a third party. The threat may be real or perceived. It is not limited to romantic relationships but also can arise among siblings competing for parental attention or in friendships. Jealousy is distinguished from envy in that jealousy always involves a third party seen as a rival for affection. Envy occurs between two people and is best summed up as "I want what you have." Although jealousy is a painful emotional experience, evolutionary psychologists regard it not as an emotion to be suppressed but as one to heed—it is a signal, a wake-up call, that a valued relationship is in danger and steps need to be taken to regain the affection of one's mate or friend. In this regard, jealousy is a necessary emotion because it preserves social bonds. It motivates people to engage in behaviors that maintain an important relationship."

Especially the last part about jealousy being a necessary emotion. Because emotions do fullfill a certain purpose, otherwise they wouldn't have made it through evolution. And to just say that an emotion is bad or dangerous, is a big generalization.
It can be dangerous if you overreact on that emotion, if you use it as an excuse to do bad things. But the emotion is only perception. It's like saying it's bad if you feel cold. If you're jeaolous your brain wants to tell you something, something you can use in a productive or counterproductive way.


message 39: by [deleted user] (last edited Jul 03, 2018 10:58AM) (new)

Then a well used jealousy, I should say healthy jealousy, should result in communication to clarify and understand what is going on.

I admit I have been quite while listening... Reading the comments but my mind was busy thinking about it and it is still not clear in there (my head). I wondered as well if jealousy had different formd involving sadness for example or anger.

To be honest I am tempted to make a difference between jealousy and being envious and right now I agree with what Michaela said.
To what I currently understand, once again emotion, in that case jealousy, should be felt, expressed and discussed. As always, I may be wrong. I'll need to read this thread again, the comments here are an interesting source of thoughts and opinions that bring questions :)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I think I have not said that in a thread but it is never too late :)


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