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Sword and Serpent
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Sword and Serpent > 10. Cyrene and Moloch

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message 1: by John (new)

John Seymour | 1968 comments Mod
10. Why did Marshall place the climactic scenes of the book in Cyrene?


message 2: by Thomas (new) - added it

Thomas Mcintyre (tjmac1115) | 3 comments Because that is the location of the dragon in the traditional legendary accounts of George and the Dragon. Plus it fits nicely in the idea of Simon, who helped Jesus carry the Cross, coming from there.


message 3: by Manuel (last edited Jun 05, 2018 01:04AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Manuel Alfonseca | 1630 comments Mod
Thomas wrote: "Because that is the location of the dragon in the traditional legendary accounts of George and the Dragon.

In fact, the traditional location is not Cyrene, but Silene, a town of unknown situation.

Moloch was a Phoenician god who received sacrifices of children. In Carthage, his name was Baal Hammon. Child sacrifices are said to have happened during the third Punic war, when Carthage was destroyed by Scipio Africanus the Younger. Later his cult was forbidden in the Roman Empire, as the Romans did not accept human sacrifices.

Taylor Marshall identified Moloch with the dragon for obvious reasons. As a consequence, he had to face the fact that Moloch's worship had been inexistant since over four centuries ago. He offers the theory that a remnant of the Carthaginians, speaking punic and keeping their religion, after the fall of Carthage would have moved to Cyrene, which actually was a Greek colony. There is no historic support for this theory, but of course it is a valid literary device.

The name Hanno, of Sabra's eunuch slave, was typically Carthaginian.


Fonch | 1443 comments Manuel wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Because that is the location of the dragon in the traditional legendary accounts of George and the Dragon.

In fact, the traditional location is not Cyrene, but Silene, a town of unk..."


I totally agree with Manuel Alfonseca except in one thing the dragon is something diferent and more terrible than Moloch. One of the reasons of the anger of God against the southern realm of the Jews is the adoption of the pagans gods, between them we can find Isthar, Baal, and Milcolm. The Holy Bible told that the King Manasiah passed to one of his sons for the fire. He sacrificed him. It is posible that the relationship between Jews and Phoenicians with the King David, and Salomon, especially with Salomon with the King of Tire Hiram allow the cult of these gods.

I recomend the Reading of a novel "Salambo" a Gustave Flaubert`s novel, where it is told the rebellion of slavaries against Carthage. One of the scenes the Carthagenians offer in a sacrifice to their sons to get the salvation of the city. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...
There is another writer Ross Leckie, who wrote a trilogy about Carthage.
About the human sacrifice was banned in the Roman Empire, indeed the war for conquering Britannia, was provoked because the Druids continued with the human sacrifices, and they promoted the naticnalism in Gallia, and Britannia.
It is surprise that there were human sacrifice in everywhere part of the empire, clear that Diocletian reigned during the Milatary Anarchy a period between (235-284) Diocletian converted in a emperor in Empire in 284 afterwards he defeated Carino (the son of the previous emperor Caro, who was defeated by the Persians) a legend told that Diocletian was a emperor after he defeated a boar in this case a warrior called Aper.


message 5: by John (new)

John Seymour | 1968 comments Mod
It struck me that Marshall may have chosen Cyrene as the location for Moloch as a symbolic repayment to Simon. Simon helps Jesus carry his cross, and a piece of the True Cross, stained with Our Savior's blood returns to Simon's home town to defeat Satan who has taken up residence there in the form of a dragon, demanding worship as Moloch.

The other thing this representation of Satan/Moloch has me thinking about is how much Satan hates humanity - so much that whenever he can he institutes some form of child sacrifice. How satisfying it must be to him if he can get the creature to whom God ordered him to bow down to kill his own progeny, to kill himself. Reading this right after the disgraceful vote in Ireland, I now think of abortion as the progressive Moloch, though more accurately it may be though of as the sacrifice to the idol of unrestricted sex without consequence, which would be the actual Moloch, and which destroys and devours in some many ways.


Manuel Alfonseca | 1630 comments Mod
John wrote: "It struck me that Marshall may have chosen Cyrene as the location for Moloch as a symbolic repayment to Simon. Simon helps Jesus carry his cross..."

He actually says that, in chapter 13: She'd even heard rumor once that someone important to that faith had come from the city [Cyrene], centuries ago.


Manuel Alfonseca | 1630 comments Mod
John wrote: "I now think of abortion as the progressive Moloch, though more accurately it may be though of as the sacrifice to the idol of unrestricted sex without consequence, which would be the actual Moloch..."

Yes, unrestricted sex without consequence, specially for men, who have been able to fool women to think that abortion is a progress for women, rather than a safeguard for men.


Fonch | 1443 comments I told to my friend Alfonseca the Irish case was terrible. Several groups and institution look for to provoke an apostasy in Ireland. They manage to get it :-(. They started a compaign against the catholic orphanage, afterwards they continued with the case of pedrastian in the catholic church. Also they offer the candy o the European Union. After they aprove the bad called marriage between persons of the same gender, and the abortion.
The cause of this we must look for in the politics of the fifties and sixties disociating sex and reproduction, and theories about the overpopulation spreading by millionaires, and institutions Soros, Gates, UN with the the objective to stop the number of birth. The key book is Extinntion of Erhlich. The science fiction and the intellectuals and spread this dreadful ideology.
Joseph Pearce in article said that the cause of the triumph of the abortion was the participation of Google, and facebook. There are not excuses and apologies, although social networks said that the abortion is freedom is a crime. We have little personality that the social network influenced our mind. We are poor slaves. There are a colective responsability in the case of the abortion. Unfortunatelly the right wing do not defend the prolife politics, now they promote the abortion. Juan Manuel de Prada spoke clearly about this topic. The first country who insert the abortion was the soviet union in the decade of tweties of the previous century. It is an ideology of the Hell.


message 9: by John (new)

John Seymour | 1968 comments Mod
I think there is cause for much soul searching in the Church. Before Satan was able to get the Irish to worship him and offer their children and their future as sacrificial offerings, the Church had to be discredited and sidelined. The Church has tolerated so much abuse by those who purported to be shepherds, that many Irish are not only not Catholic, but hate the Church. The pro-life side of the campaign in Ireland asked the Church not to get involved because its reputation is so bad right now.

Bishops turned out to be hirelings who fled rather than protecting their flocks from the wolves they appointed, or worse, have turned out to be wolves themselves. Yes, media has made things appear worse than they were and yes, they've down played similar problems in parallel institutions. And yes, Google and Facebook and other such organizations are all of the world and side with sin and death against the Church. None of this should surprise us.

I was thinking this was getting a little bit far afield, but perhaps this is our dragon now, what each of us is called to battle, not relying on our own strength, but picking up and wielding spiritual swords - which was last month's book.


Fonch | 1443 comments John wrote: "I think there is cause for much soul searching in the Church. Before Satan was able to get the Irish to worship him and offer their children and their future as sacrificial offerings, the Church ha..."
I totally agree with the speech John, to the things that you have added i would like include more things. Irealant has felt to closer to the abortion for the europeism and the bad behaviour of some countries of the European Unión that they thng all posible that Ireland tolerate the homosexual unions, and the abortion. One of the excuse it was the people must go to Ireland to abort, for this reason they want aborts for everybody. The problema of the nationalism at finally is a Monter who destroyed the religión. It is very negative the feminism that influenced in the mind of the women unfortunatelly wins strenght in Europe the famous slogan we are pregnant we decide me.
In the case of the abortion we face a terrible dragon the hedonism and selfish if you have not children you have more money to waste in holidays, caprices.
The result a long term it wwas disaster the population get old, and besides the birth reduce and it Will be the end not only the Ireland. It Will be the end of Europe.
The next battle it Will be the Euthanasia.


message 11: by Jill (new)

Jill A. | 719 comments I like the way the author doesn't minimize the power of Satan and evil. His whole premise, about the gods ceasing to communicate, assumes there was some (satanic) reality to their earlier communications (rather than it being trickery on the part of the priests, who could have continued to make things up rather than face the emperor's wrath). That's also a plausible explanation for the dragon, not a mythical being but a manifestation chosen by Satan (who also appears to Jurian in the cave as Diocletian). What I don't understand is how seeing the dragon could kill Flavia, and why the Christians don't pray over her and restore her to life. I also don't like Jurian's battle with Satan being so physical/military.


Fonch | 1443 comments Jill wrote: "I like the way the author doesn't minimize the power of Satan and evil. His whole premise, about the gods ceasing to communicate, assumes there was some (satanic) reality to their earlier communica..."
The first objection the Christian did not pray, because they did not know that is Satan. They thought that the sacrifice were in honor of Moloch, and they thought that it is a sacrifice to sabe Cyrene. It is somrthing that they are forced for law. The usual position is the position of the Christian slave of Sabra Izebel.

Flavia could not defeat the devil because the devil had a physical appearence. To defeat the devil you need defeating in a physical and spiritual combat. For this reason the body it is so important because allows did the soul operation.


Taylor Marshall | 5 comments As author, I don't like to comment on the details of the Sword and Serpent Trilogy because I enjoy readers figuring out the details or "easter eggs" hidden within the text.

Manuel and John are correct. The Latin legend has the dragon at "Silene" - which is fictional or corrupted. I transformed it into "Cyrene" for these reasons:

1) I desired Jurian/George to overpower the dragon with a relic of the true cross so that this George would be associated with the "true cross legend" of Constantine and Helena (much more important characters in books 2-3). The problem is there were no relics of the cross until Saint Helena discovered the cross in Jerusalem (which happens after this trilogy). So I created a myth that St Simon of Cyrene had a splinter of the cross in his hand from carrying it with Christ and that this splinter was gifted from him to Mary to bishops to Nicholas to George (to Constantine). So George is a "neo-Simon of Cyrene" and a "proto-Constantine" with regard to the true cross. The entire trilogy is a fictional, playful account of my other book The Eternal City.

2) As others mentioned above, the biblical account of child sacrifice is associated with the Phoenician god Molech. I wanted to weave together that biblical witness to this legend and since Cyrene is North African and thus Punic/Phoenician, it is a perfect fit. I do not know of anyone else who associates the "dragon" of George with the Molech-cult but it works and it's very powerful.

3) Cyrene is meant to signify a contemporary civil sanctioned abortuary. Sabra herself is redeemed and is herself post-abortive.

I could say more, but that's probably already too much.


Fonch | 1443 comments Taylor wrote: "As author, I don't like to comment on the details of the Sword and Serpent Trilogy because I enjoy readers figuring out the details or "easter eggs" hidden within the text.

Manuel and John are co..."


I can not say more except expressing my thanks to the author for participating in the discussion now the topic is much better. I also was thinking in Constantine and Saint Helen. About theese characters i recomend the Evelyn Waugh`s novel of the same title, and the ever interesteing writer Louis de Wohl particularly this novel https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...


Madeleine Myers | 268 comments Our parish Bible study one year covered angels and demons in the Bible. The Moloch/Baal/abortion connection was much discussed. "Nothing new under the sun" or "the more things change, the more they stay the same." Abortion is Satan's modern version of Moloch. When it was first legalized, the official line was to make them safe and rare--but in our day, it is promoted as a preferred alternative to parenthood, our new incarnation of the dragon, I think.


Fonch | 1443 comments Madeleine wrote: "Our parish Bible study one year covered angels and demons in the Bible. The Moloch/Baal/abortion connection was much discussed. "Nothing new under the sun" or "the more things change, the more they..."

Nowadays the actual Moloch is more terrible, before the people sacrificed to their sons for tributing to the Gods, now for selfish, and money, although it was disguised by the feminism. It is curious but G.K. Chesterton is right in Everlasting Man. This horrible sacrifice produce in a merchant society Phenicia, and Carthage.


message 17: by John (new)

John Seymour | 1968 comments Mod
Taylor wrote: "As author, I don't like to comment on the details of the Sword and Serpent Trilogy because I enjoy readers figuring out the details or "easter eggs" hidden within the text.

Manuel and John are co..."


Taylor,

I would like to repeat what Fonch has already said and thank you for participating in the discussion. I especially appreciate your letting us air out our views first. Please feel free to stick around. :-)


message 18: by Bice (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bice (bicebeechay) | 111 comments I too like that Taylor has joined the discussion. Good to know straight from author,


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