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The Spoiler Zone > PRIMAL GODS & THEIR KIDS (Spoiler Zone)

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message 1: by Veronica (new)

Veronica | 9 comments I have no idea if I'm even putting this question in the right place, but hoping someone who's keeping up w/ DH AND CON can answer this.

Noir aka Kadar (Azura calls him this in Invision)
Azura aka Shyamala (learned in Dragonsworn)
Braith aka Apollymi (known canon)
Cam aka Menyara (" ")
Rezar aka Set (" ")
Verlyn aka Jaden (" ")

My question is .. when Falcyn is describing to Medea world's 1st family tree - he says Shyamala (AKA AZURA) came 1st followed by SIX other siblings and lists them as "Braith. Cam. Rezar. Verlyn. Lilith. Kadar"

Who is Lilith? I initially confused her w/ Liliana (Caleb's wife, RIP) but .. quick Google search showed me my errors. So who is this Lilith? Rest of the passage goes on to say she "was damaged in the fall, thus causing her powers to mix back together. She was neutral in the beginning." AND "she took the pieces of the egg and fused them back together with their conjoined DNA. But she never told the others what she'd done. It was her secret."

Have we seen her in present day in any of the series? Can't help but think this secret with the dragonstone will somehow be involved in future storylines.

ALSO, just b/c I'm OCD .. their children:

Noir: Lucifer, Falcyn
Azura:
Braith: Monakribos, Acheron
Cam:
Rezar: Bethany, Seth
Verlyn: Caleb, Xev

Azura and Cam haven't had children?


message 2: by Marie (new)

Marie | 1447 comments The dragonstone is the World Egg from what I understand. As far as I know we never met Lilith. According to Max(or another dragon dude?) She's sleeping in Ikalla with all the other liliti.

Azura and Noir had Wynter Laguerre. The other Wynter (who works for Thorn) is Noir's daughter with Hekate. Noir also had Dagon with Hekate.

I suspect Cam is Rubati's mother, but that's unclear from the information we've been given in the books. I think Maahes is supposed to be related to Cam somehow, but I don't know how.

Jared is Verlyn's adoptive son who still believes they're father and son.


message 3: by Marie (last edited May 23, 2018 04:10PM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Also, we already had a thread about Primals and another on the genealogy of all the characters. But you made a good call putting this in the Spoiler Zone


Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments Also, Azura is Xev's mother as well as Shadow's. Shadow's father is the Nassaru (Arelim high order) Adidiron.

It's also mentioned in Invision that Jaden said Xev had brothers stuck in Azmodea as well. We don't know if that's a genetic connection or just a brotherly-like bond though.

I always suspected that Rubati was Rezar (Set's) daughter or even granddaughter.


message 5: by Malachaibubble12 (last edited May 23, 2018 04:39PM) (new)

Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments The way Falcyn explains Lilith's birth (or hatching) is really confusing. Like I don't understand how her powers could have "mixed back together." Does that mean that none of them at the point of birth were corporeal? And how long were the other Primals distracted if she was using the Liliti as a distraction? Because I thought that Tiamat (aka Chaos aka the North Wind) brought the egg to Earth. And since they all hatched from the same egg wouldn't they all be nearby it and could've seen Lilith try to put it back together??


message 6: by Marie (last edited May 23, 2018 04:40PM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments About Verlyn's kids: Did it actually say they were in Azmodea? I thought it was just a vague guilt-trip where Jaden was like "Do you know where your brothers are because of what you did?". I always assumed he was talking about Jared and Caleb, and referring to their enslavement, without giving away that he knew Jared wasn't his real son.


message 7: by Marie (last edited May 23, 2018 04:46PM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Malachaibubble12 wrote: "The way Falcyn explains Lilith's birth (or hatching) is really confusing. Like I don't understand how her powers "mixed back together." Does that mean that none of them at the point of birth were c..."

from what I understand, Lilith created the liliti to distract from the fact that she had found a way to have children despite Azura's curse. So all of that happened waaay after the Primals came to be. They were these supremely powerful beings who literally had the entire world as their oyster, so I don't see why they would have stuck nearby after birth and been able to see Lilith reassemble the Egg. We're talking about Gods here. There's no reason to believe they were just standing around and I don't see what being corporeal has to do with anything.


message 8: by Bren (last edited May 23, 2018 07:21PM) (new)

Bren (brencl94) | 418 comments Malachaibubble12 wrote: "Also, Azura is Xev's mother as well as Shadow's. Shadow's father is the Nassaru (Arelim high order) Adidiron.

It's also mentioned in Invision that Jaden said Xev had brothers stuck in Azmodea as w..."


I've always thought Rubati was related to Rezar in someway too.


Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments I finally found the part where Jaden and Xev are talking in Invision!

"Oh, pardon. There's one she didn't birth. How forgetful of me. Must be all the centuries I spent in hell being tortured. Tends to take a toll on one's memory." Xev rolled his eyes.

"What's that supposed to mean? Need I remind you where I've been? Where your brothers are...because of you?" Jaden snarled.

"I had nothing to do with that!"

"Yeah, sure you didn't!"

"I didn't betray my own army!"


message 10: by Marie (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Yeah we don't know from Jaden's words if where HE'S been is supposed to be the same place Xev's brothers are


message 11: by Veronica (new)

Veronica | 9 comments Marie wrote: "The dragonstone is the World Egg from what I understand. As far as I know we never met Lilith. According to Max(or another dragon dude?) She's sleeping in Ikalla with all the other liliti.

Azura ..."


ah yes!! Maahes is Cam's nephew. Just recalled from Styxx


message 12: by Veronica (new)

Veronica | 9 comments Malachaibubble12 wrote: "Also, Azura is Xev's mother as well as Shadow's. Shadow's father is the Nassaru (Arelim high order) Adidiron.

It's also mentioned in Invision that Jaden said Xev had brothers stuck in Azmodea as w..."


where did we learn that about Shadow?

also,
Malachaibubble12 wrote: "The way Falcyn explains Lilith's birth (or hatching) is really confusing. Like I don't understand how her powers could have "mixed back together." Does that mean that none of them at the point of b..."

I guess what bothered me about that is that we've been under the impression SIX primal gods. Lilith is a 7th - that was neutral-ish b/c of her powers mixing due to falling initially. Obv went dark after Azura's curse. So .. she's the mother of all demons? ALSO, another line in Dragonsworn said Lilith and "her sisters" <-- who would they be?

and .. who's Caleb's mother?

PS thank you all for responding && sorry for posting another topic on primal gods & genealogy!


message 13: by Marie (last edited May 24, 2018 08:24AM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Caleb's mother, as far as we know, is a random demon (probably a Daeve like Caleb).

I think the info on Shadow is on his character profile on the official website.

There were 7 Primals at the beginning, but Lilith slept with Noir and her siblings ganged up on her to make her a demon. From that point on, there were only 6 Primals. Azura also cursed her with the inability to give birth to live children. But Lilith figured out how to use the World Egg/Dragonstone to have children.

Her children, because they were hatched and not born, are dragons. In order to distract Azura from the fact that she'd figured out a way around her curse, she created the liliti demons out of her own blood. Falcyn said the process twisted her in some way and made her evil and insane, so I'm guessing it involves some sort of dark magic.

The liliti are considered to be Lilith's sisters because they are made from her blood and, as far as we know, they are not any different from Lilith herself. Like her, they are demons whose children are hatched and born as dragons.

As far as we know, Lilith is not the mother of all demons. In fact, a good number of demon species are supposed to come from the Malachai. Plus, both Tiamat and Echidna are referred to as the "mother of all monsters", whatever that means.


message 14: by Veronica (new)

Veronica | 9 comments Marie wrote: "Caleb's mother, as far as we know, is a random demon (probably a Daeve like Caleb).

I think the info on Shadow is on his character profile on the official website.

There were 7 Primals at the beg..."


THANK YOU!!!!!!!!


message 15: by Marie (new)

Marie | 1447 comments It's important to note that all of this info on Lilith is told from the POV of her son who, yes, is older than dirt, but was also born after most of those events had already occurred. For all we know, some of his knowledge is tainted by his mother's interpretation of events.


message 16: by Nicole (new)

Nicole | 119 comments Hi, can I ask you guys a few stupid questions? It has something to do with the new book (death doesn't bargain) and the primal gods/kids. I'll do my best to keep it as vague as possible so I don't give any spoilers to those who haven't read it yet, but maybe just in case skip this one now if you haven't read it yet.

Towards the end of the book were a few things that made me wonder and as I haven't re-read the books in a while (and it's so complex now its getting harder and harder to remember all the previous details). Braith's son monakribos - is he really dead? I know the whole Malachi thing about son killing father and stuff - I just don't remember if it actually said he was killed or I don't know drained by his son and left for dead but not dead. This sounds really stupid, I know, sorry. I was also wondering - rubarti was pregnant, wasn't she? Did the child survive or was the "son that did monakribos in" a child he had with someone else? Could rubarti's baby have been implanted into someone else like the gods seem to love to do and have survived that way? I'm asking all those dumb questions as I can't remember his story properly anymore and it might have been in one of the few books I borrowed from the library rather than the ones I bought, as I can't find it in them. I'm also asking as I just finished Death doesn't bargain and the particular appearance, the charonte, the comment muragh made... Doesn't it sound a bit like the description of Nick in his books? Also archeron also has the horns though I don't recall wings? Also, aren't the charonte with braith? She sent simi to ash, for this other person to carry so many, wouldn't he have to be someone related/dear to braith? Also, it said part demon, sephiri aren't, are they? So he couldn't be the lover/daddy? Him being of that bloodline could also explain why Nick was trained by werehunter (ravyn?) that hooked up with that journalist - Susan I think her name was - instead of the one he was originally sent to. What do you remember about rubarti and monakribos and do you think the above could be possible? Thanks


message 17: by Malachaibubble12 (last edited Jun 01, 2018 01:30AM) (new)

Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments Nicole wrote: "Hi, can I ask you guys a few stupid questions? It has something to do with the new book (death doesn't bargain) and the primal gods/kids. I'll do my best to keep it as vague as possible so I don't ..."

Sorry Nicole, but I don't think the stuff u said about Monakribos and Rubati is possible. Only one Malachai can survive. Each Malachai as in The Malachai gains all the power, strength, and none of the weaknesses of their predecessor. In Invision Nick said that he and all the Malachai's before him couldn't remember Monakribos's death (for whatever reason--we don't know why). Xev said it was because Jaden and his siblings (the Primal Gods) tore Monakribos tore him apart. Jaden denied that he had any part of that though as he stated that he tried to bring "Monakribos back." Jeros came out of the blood like how Bathymaas did with Rubati's.

The Malachai line didn't gain the ability to absorb others powers just being near them or not killing them until Adarian had that ability in Death Doesn't Bargain. So it stands that since every Malachai before Adarian had to absorbs the powers of the previous Malachai by being near them AND killing them that for sure Monakribos is definitely dead.

The child was definitely Rubati and Monakribos's as they. Oth refer to it as their child or elude to that. The baby didn't survive because right after Monakdibos came to his senses Rubat said that she was about to tell him that she was pregnant, but it was too late now because you've killed us both. Monakribos also cursed all the source gods to unhappiness until what they stole from him is returned go his bloodline--that being his love/heart/wife and his son. So Monakribos is definitely dead and so is his kid and wife.

But the thing that you said about Sav made me think of something. It's said that the sons (or daughters) that are descended from the Malachai line (as in the Malachai kids that weren't the next heir and they evaded being killed by their father/and or their Malachai father didn't know of their existence) went on to start some of the most lethal demon species. What if Sav is a descendant of one of those demon species that was started by a half-Malachai??


message 18: by Marie (last edited Jun 01, 2018 02:18PM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments I want to track down where we saw that various demon species originated with the Malachai because I'm actually not sure if the character who said it meant "the Malachai", as in the Malachai of the last remaining bloodline that originated with Monakribos, or "the Malachai" as in the species. There was an entire army of Malachai before most of them were killed and I always assumed that the demon species that originate with the Malachai came to be waaaay before the army was destroyed.

Point is, I don't actually think the non-heir sons and daughters of Nick's Malachai bloodline are the source of various demon species. I think those demon species were created in a time where there were a lot of Malachai around.

Also, from what I understand, it's proven extremely difficult for Nick's Malachai ancestors to have children. Sons are extremely lucky if they survive infancy and from what I understand females were usually born weaker (I think that's in the Ask the Author section). So I'm not even sure it's feasible for the non-heirs to have survived long enough to procreate and create new demon species


message 19: by Malachaibubble12 (new)

Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments Marie wrote: "I want to track down where we saw that various demon species originated with the Malachai because I'm actually not sure if the character who said it meant "the Malachai", as in the Malachai of the ..."

Found it!

This is from Inferno:

“I am. I want to know why the demon was talking about him. Is there something really special about a Malachai?”

“Yeah, if you want to seriously mangle people or end the world as we know it, he’s the one to summon. He was the first of the demonic destroyers and his breed fathered many of the subsequent and best-known evil demons. Luckily, none of the children possess the powers of their fathers. Rather, they’re all watered-down versions of the Malachai.”


message 20: by Marie (last edited Jun 02, 2018 06:20AM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Yeah I don't think it's the Malachai's kids because it says "his breed" and given the use of the term "fathered", I think "children" is used figuritavely to refer to all those demon species that sprung from the Malachai breed.

but then, the language is ambiguous enough that maybe it was the non-heir kids of Nick's bloodline that started all those demon species, but who know? *shrug*


message 21: by Marie (last edited Jun 02, 2018 06:46AM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Nicole wrote: "Hi, can I ask you guys a few stupid questions? It has something to do with the new book (death doesn't bargain) and the primal gods/kids. I'll do my best to keep it as vague as possible so I don't ..."

Savitar is the Chthonian who was in charge of the Charonte in Lemuria, so I'm not actually that surprised that he can carry them on his body.

The legend goes that Apollymi might have seduced the leader of the Charonte so he'd never want to leave her side, That's how the Charonte became enslaved to her. I imagine Savitar tagged along since he was their Chthonian and we know he became the Chthonian for Atlantis at some point. I don't know how his demonic origins feature into the whole thing, though I do think that, given all of that information and his weird mysterious history with Ash's mother, it's likely he's part Charonte.


message 22: by Malachaibubble12 (new)

Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments Marie wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Hi, can I ask you guys a few stupid questions? It has something to do with the new book (death doesn't bargain) and the primal gods/kids. I'll do my best to keep it as vague as possi..."

The various thousands of Malachai that have been born over the centuries probably bred with a couple hundred or thousands of the strongest level demon species or the ones with powers each Malachai craved to have in their own bloodline. So maybe they intentionally (or unintentionally) bred with the Charonte?

If it's true that they did breed with a variety of demon species it's a real wonder how the Malachai bloodline is so strong as not to be diluted enough. For the Malachai traits and behavior to be the dominant figure/personality trait of each new Malachai given that they might be such a huge cauldron of hodge podge species, behaviors, and abilities.


message 23: by Marie (last edited Jun 02, 2018 03:06PM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments I don't think it works that way exactly. I don't think they gained more abilities necessarily. Malachai demons were already at the top of the demon food chain. Whatever abilities they have now, I think they always had them. The only difference was the Malachai's mastery of those abilities. Just look at how Sav treated the idea of Adarian drawing strength from the evildoers around him. Everyone was surprised and didn't know he could do that, but Sav's only response was that he didn't know Adarian had mastered that particular trick. From everyone's reactions, it seems like a Malachai drawing strength the evil around him is unheard of as far as powers go, but to Savitar, it's not a new power so much as a new ability to use that power.

This is one long-winded way of saying that I don't think the Malachai demons gained abilities by procreating with other demon species. A Malachai is a Malachai and that's all there is to it. I don't think there is any such thing as a demi-Malachai, because being a Malachai entails more than just the bloodline. A son of a Malachai might become a Malachai because of the curse. It's not just about having the blood of a Malachai father running through one's veins, it's about having the memories, the rage, the hatred and the power. All those non-heir children were not, strictly speaking, Malachai because they were not the heir. Whatever they were, it was a completely different species. But that doesn't mean the demon species derived from the Malachai came from the non-heir kids. It could have been the children of the multitudes of Malachai demons that existed before the curse was laid. Because of everything I explained in the last few paragraphs (sorry for all that text BTW), the curse completely changed the way Malachai demons procreate.

It's like, Madoc is the son of a Malachai and a goddess. But because he's not the heir, he's a god. And that's it. He might have Malachai-like destructive tendencies or anger issues, but at the end of the day, he's not a demon or a demi-demon. He's a god. If he'd taken Nick's place, he would be a Malachai who is maybe more powerful than most because he's related to a goddess, but that wouldn't make him a demi-god because the Malachai are a breed apart. So if the non-heir kids survived like Madoc did, they would take after their mother, since it's impossible for them to be any kind of Malachai if they're not the heir. The Malachai demons from before the curse, however, could have spawned new kinds of demons because being a Malachai was no different than being any kind of demon back then.

That's the way I see things anyway


message 24: by Malachaibubble12 (new)

Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments Pretty sure it was Thorn who said that not Sav. And he was specifically referring to how Adarian absorbed Kalder's powers just by being near him. Not the whole evil-sucking thing that Malachai's draw more strength from--such as when they are in prison. Malachai's drawing strength from evil, hate, and malice isn't new as when Caleb was talking about it in Infamous to Nick while they were in juvie.


message 25: by Malachaibubble12 (new)

Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments I get what your saying that they would take after the mother. That makes a lot of sense. Madoc still is a half-breed though. Half-demon and half-god (demigod). Kinda like how Caleb is in that being a half-breed didn't change his label.

Adarian mentioned in Infamous that his son (Madoc) had the blood of two gods in him. So maybe that's what made him a god. Or the combo of him having two gods on his mother's bloodline and his half-Malachai tendencies repressed is what made him exactly a god.


message 26: by Marie (last edited Jun 02, 2018 04:10PM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Malachaibubble12 wrote: "Pretty sure it was Thorn who said that not Sav. And he was specifically referring to how Adarian absorbed Kalder's powers just by being near him. Not the whole evil-sucking thing that Malachai's dr..."

Nope, Sav said it, not Thorn. And yeah, you're right, they were talking about Adarian stealing Kalder's powers, but what I said still applies. Sav knew that the Malachai could do that, but as far as everyone else is concerned, it's unheard of.

Think of it like this. Let's say the first Malachai could throw fire balls. Let's call that ability "fire". Then, as the generations go on and the Malachai's power grows, so does its ability to use fire until he can, in theory, burn down the entire world if he wants to. The first Malachai, had he had that much power to draw from, could have also burned down the world. The ability to do so was there, even if the power wasn't. Do you see what I mean? I think that each Malachai gained power from their mother's bloodline, but I don't think they gained new abilities. I just think the power they gained magnified what abilities they already had. That would explain why Sav knew Adarian could absorb Kalder's powers but didn't know he'd mastered the ability. It also explains why each Malachai have the same, what, 9 or so abilities they need to master in order to be fullfledged Malachai demons.

But that's just my interpretation


message 27: by Marie (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Malachaibubble12 wrote: "I get what your saying that they would take after the mother. That makes a lot of sense. Madoc still is a half-breed though. Half-demon and half-god (demigod). Kinda like how Caleb is in that being..."

Yeah I was using Madoc because he's the only non-heir son we know of. I'm not sure how much of what I said applies to him since he's the only one that's survived this long. But my whole point was that the nature of a Malachai isn't just the demon genetics, it's the whole combo of memories, wrath and ancestral power. It's not like Caleb's situation because Caleb is a Daeve demi-god, and the Daeve are presumably like any normal demons who breed normally. There can be a demi-god Daeve but there can't be demi-Malachai gods, because, to my mind, the curse makes it so you're either a Malachai or you're not.

But I don't know how much of that is accurate according to SK's vision


message 28: by Malachaibubble12 (last edited Jun 02, 2018 09:50PM) (new)

Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments I still think it's pretty bs how Sherri just slapped on the 10 Malachai abilities like that. Kody and them made it sound like the 10 abilities were gonna be super awesome and unique and then it just ends up being very common-place abilities that most any demon has in the first place. It still aggravates me how Nick just "understood" and could now supposedly control all of his abilities and powers including his own, which we didn't see him actively try to maintain control of for a long period of time.

I understand how he already has the combined memories of his Malachai predessecors so he would in a sense already know how to control his inherited powers and abilities, but it would've been nice to actually see CoN Nick use all of them throughout the series.

We did get to see CoN Nick using these abilities: using a spell on the undead (and not even mastering the necromancy lesson), perspicacity, divination, conjuring, silkspeech, summoning, clairvoyance, telekinesis, and teleportation.

But I just really wanted to see him trying to actively learn every single one before he became The Malachai. Also, it would be nice if it explained how these abilities actually work. The whole clairvoyance out-of-body scene in Intensity is still mind-boggingly confusing when it shouldn't be if the author could've explained the ability earlier in the series.

Like there could've been a tiny funny novella about Nick during summer vacation when he's out of school and Caleb's is attempting to teach him abilities and battle strategies and stuff. That would be exceedingly hilarious to read. We never did get to see him try transformation. I really wanna know what kind of animal form what like to turn into as it gives lots of hints into each characters personality and behavior when they do choose one.


message 29: by Bren (new)

Bren (brencl94) | 418 comments Same, I feel like those 10 abilities are something almost everyone in the books have, except maybe necromancy, but still.


message 30: by Marie (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Yeah, remember in Illusion when Nick kicked alt-Thorn's ass? Caleb was surprised at how good Nick got at fighting, and tbh so was I. Who the hell trained him in combat fighting? Was it one of those things where his ancestral memories just kicked in at that moment? Because that's another thing that annoys me. It seems like Nick's abilities only work when it's convenient for the story. I kind of thought that he just.. had them. That he didn't have to consciously "activate" them in order for his abilities to work. Like the one where he can tell when people lie. That's the one that supposedly never fails him and sometimes it seems like it happens to be working, but the rest of the time he is blindsided by traitors and liars. Is it like cell reception? When it's there, it works great, but sometimes he loses the connection? I just don't get it.


message 31: by Marie (new)

Marie | 1447 comments I feel like we're pretty off topic at this point so, to bring us back to Primals and their kids...
Every time something Apocalyptic about Noir and Azura comes up in the series, people are like "we need to find Verlyn/Rezar/Cam! He/she is the only one that can truly stop what's coming"... But I feel like someone in the books should point out to those characters that their last peace treaty involved mass genocide and saddled the world with the Malachai as an eternal enemy


message 32: by Malachaibubble12 (new)

Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments Marie wrote: "Yeah, remember in Illusion when Nick kicked alt-Thorn's ass? Caleb was surprised at how good Nick got at fighting, and tbh so was I. Who the hell trained him in combat fighting? Was it one of those..."

Yeah, I don't understand at. all. how he keeps getting blindsided by say Livia and Grim when he has the lie-detector power. I even reread the part in Intensity when they were talking about the 10 Lessons/powers and Nick said his perspacacity/lie detector was the only power that Menyara couldn't bind when he was born. So as such that means he has it always. So how he keeps getting blindsided wen he can see through lies/disguises/see the heart i.e. truth of things maybe he's just in supreme denial when faced with some truths and is ever doubtful of himself/of his powers?

Also, yeah his powers just being convenient at certain a time in the story is a major flaw of this series that I really hate.


message 33: by Marie (last edited Jun 04, 2018 09:15AM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments I don't think there's any thread for The Source so I'll just post this here.

We know from the flashbacks in Intensity that Monakribos had a commander, which makes me wonder if what we thought about him being the commander of the Malachai army was actually true. I mean, he could have become the commander, but this is the first time we hear something that contradicts what we've heard that said he was. Given that the gods had to turn him against themselves to finally kill him, I wonder if he was a servant of the Source. Their power comes from the Source, so turning the Malachai against them turns him, by extension, against the Source. Maybe that's why the gods were forbidden from killing Jeros. I figure you can't break of the faith of the Source's most loyal servant and not pay for it. What if he worshipped the Source, and served its children as a way to honor that belief? And that's why he believed their promise and when they broke their word, it had such monumental consequences.

I think there's a link between crows and the being a servant of the source. Livia once announced herself as the Source's lead servant after she thought she'd killed Nick and taken his place as Malachai, and the Malachai symbol is a series of interlocked crows. Then there is that one sure servant of the Source in Deadman Walking, I don't remember her name, but didn't she have some sort of bird from, like a crow? And there's the red crow the Source gave Nick to guide him in Illusion.

Anyway, I'm not sure yet but crows in connection to the Source seem to come up a lot.


message 34: by Michael (new)

Michael Buchler | 130 comments Hmm IDK, CoN has a "rushed" feeling to them. As if she just sat down and wrote them without thinking about all the finer details.


message 35: by Marie (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Yeah sometimes I overthink this stuff and imagine some cool twists or backstories to give small details more importance to the whole story, only it turns out I read too much into those details and end up disappointed. I'm afraid that's what I'm doing with the crow thing and with why turning against the Primals is what allowed them to kill Kri.


message 36: by Malachaibubble12 (last edited Jun 04, 2018 11:20AM) (new)

Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments I think symbolism with the Source has more to do with snakes actually. Sherri was said on Facebook that she was thinking of personal symbol for Talon and ended up using it for Nick.

Nick noticed that Chronus had an egg and snake symbol on his silver vambraces in Instinct. I take this to mean the Orphic Egg symbolism-wise (it's easier to just look up what that is than have me explain all the various routes of symbolism for it that fit with this series). I'm sure the Ouroboros symbol has significance to the Source as well given that it's a snake eating its own tail i.e. immortality, rebirth, resurrection, infinity, cycles, circles, patterns, etc. In the memory that Nick glimpsed with Tiamat she was riding a dragon or something. And Nick together with his generals are known as The Usumgallu (The Great Snake). ;)


message 37: by Marie (last edited Jun 04, 2018 11:29AM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments The egg and Snake symbol is the Orphic Egg, the Greek version of the mythological world egg from which the first gods where hatched. Since Chronos is from Greek mythology, it makes sense that this particular incarnation of the source would have the Greek symbol of that myth on his arm. In this case, I didn't think the snake was significantly related to the Source. I just thought the snake was there because the Greek version of that myth depicts an egg with a snake around it, and the version of the Source in question was greek. But yeah, considering that in mythology Tiamat is depicted either riding a dragon or as a sea serpent, then that and the Usumgallu also seem to tie snake symbolism with the Source.

Like I said, I'm not sure about the crow thing. We don't know enough of the Source's actual servants and we haven't met enough of the Source's incarnation to make an accurate jugement. I'm more sure about the snake thing, but at the same time, it's mostly associated with the Malachai and Nick's bloodline. So it might be a significant symbol with the Malachai and not so much the Source themselves. Same for the crow thing. I just wanted to throw that thought out there, see what you thought


message 38: by Marie (new)

Marie | 1447 comments the Phoenician version of the world egg myth is particularly interesting since it mentions the role of the Wind, which Falcyn mentionned, and refers to Ma'at. You might want to check it out


message 39: by Malachaibubble12 (new)

Malachaibubble12 | 555 comments Marie wrote: "the Phoenician version of the world egg myth is particularly interesting since it mentions the role of the Wind, which Falcyn mentionned, and refers to Ma'at. You might want to check it out"

I read the description on Wikipedia. The Phoenician version is pretty interesting. I also looked up the god Mot mentioned as well as Baal on Britannica as Baal also popped up while I was looking at solar deities and symbols. Baal was a life-giver, king of the gods, sun, rain, and fertility god eternally at war with Mot (Death). It reminds me a lot of Verlyn(since he's a fertility god aka the Earth's Protector) and Noir.


message 40: by Valerie (new)

Valerie | 26 comments Marie wrote: "I don't think there's any thread for The Source so I'll just post this here.

We know from the flashbacks in Intensity that Monakribos had a commander, which makes me wonder if what we thought abo..."


Since I knew Noir's emblem pulls from an ancient alphabet I spent some time doing research on others, primarily Jaden's and Nick's. While figuring out early on that Nick's is full of alchemy symbols I dug deep because there were some that I just could not find the descriptions for. While doing so I ran across the Seven Stages of Spiritual Alchemy and the Imagery of Alchemical Transformation. Birds are a prominent feature in the symbol, from what I remember some interpretations referred to them directly as crows which is what they looked like to me. (Also interesting was the Kabbalah Tree of Life and the 10 Sephiroth.) Might be worth a look. I could see an argument for these being used as reference for a connection to "higher beings" or the Source.


message 41: by Marie (last edited Jun 05, 2018 07:37AM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Valerie wrote: "Marie wrote: "I don't think there's any thread for The Source so I'll just post this here.

We know from the flashbacks in Intensity that Monakribos had a commander, which makes me wonder if what ..."


Oh yeah I found something interesting here. A black crow or raven signifies initiation through blackness and when you look at Figure 4 "Azoth of the Philosophers", you can see a black crow at the beginning of its journey who then dissolves into a purer version of itself. The white crow it becomes is joined with another white crow and together they pick at the carcasse of the black crow it used to be. This refers to the process of Spiritual Alchemy where you honestly examine your feelings, good and bad, accept them as a part of yourself. At which point the white crows fly off with a golden crown, gold signifies complete achievement of perfection and harmony.

I mean, SK is either drawing from alchemy for the world she's built or she's drawing from something related to Alchemy because I see a lot of stuff here that are echoed in the books, particularly CON


message 42: by Valerie (new)

Valerie | 26 comments Yeah there is some interesting stuff in Spiritual Alchemy when relating to CON. I was convinced right away that SK drew from this is some fashion when structuring Nick's journey.


message 43: by Bren (new)

Bren (brencl94) | 418 comments So all this talk of the primal gods and their children inspired me to make a family tree, it's kind of a mess since everyone and their mother is related in this series, but I think I did ok

http://www.familyecho.com/?p=START&am...

If anyone has any suggestions let me know.


message 44: by Marie (last edited Jun 07, 2018 07:42PM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments For the Source, I'm not sure Tiamat and Chronus are it. I mean, I know they're Jaden's parents but Ra is also referred to as Rezar and Cam's father, and Zenobi is Braith's mother so....

I think it's more like the Source is made up of all these aspects like chaos and order/time, destruction and creation... and it's also made up of other parts which seem to be reflected in each Primals' particular affinity for an element: Ra is light, Zenobi is the Wind (which is reflected in Cam's Air element I think)... I think there must be incarnations of the source for fire (Rezar's power?), water (Azura's power), base metals (Braith's thing), and night/darkness (which is Noir's thing).

Anyway, the point is I'm not sure if Tiamat and Chronus are, stricly speaking, the "parents" of all Primals or if those incarnations are particular to Verlyn because of whatever they represent. For example, Chronus, as an aspect of the Source that represent order and time, might not be considered the father of any Primal who stands for Chaos.

But anyway, until we know how the Source works exactly and know more about its relationship to its children, I would suggest just adding all other known incarnations of the Source alongside Tiamat and Chronus, so they'll look like one big polyamorous couple.


message 45: by Bren (new)

Bren (brencl94) | 418 comments Marie wrote: "For the Source, I'm not sure Tiamat and Chronus are it. I mean, I know they're Jaden's parents but Ra is also referred to as Rezar and Cam's father, and Zenobi is Braith's mother so....

I think it..."


I thought about that, adding Ra and Zenobi next to Tiamat and Chronus, but there are already over 500 characters and I feel like it's really messy at this point and adding those 2 would be more confusing.


message 46: by Marie (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Yeah I see what you mean


message 47: by Veronica (new)

Veronica | 9 comments I'm now reading Deadmen Walking and .. I think Sherrilyn has finally succeeded in completely confusing me. I was so sure I completely understood Thorn/his lineage and .. I'm not even done with the book yet (95%) and I had to comment on this! I thought we were done w/ all surprises on him after learning he wasn't Noir's son but grandson and that Cadegan was his son.

I really reallllyyyyy hope when the entire series is tied up, we get an official comprehensive genealogy chart. Not just primal gods, but also other pantheons/demons/fae/etc.


message 48: by Michael (new)

Michael Buchler | 130 comments Going back to an earlier part of this discussion (sorry}, but I just have to talk about this: Nick constantly being blind-sided. I think this is because of the following:

1. Nick's power works by discerning the intent of individuals. He gave Livia a chance because she wanted to be part of a family, something he probably emphasized with. He also did his dead-level best to ignore her because she kept coming on to him, hence why he missed the betrayal.
2. Nick never trusted Grim. He only underestimated how far along the latter's plans were for deposing him.

If you take the above into account, Nick had some incredibly accurate insights into some characters. When he met Aeron the first time, he was weary of him and probably used his power on him. This showed him that he could be trusted. Same with Zavid. Most of Nick's problems started when he decided to ignore these insights. He really did not want to bring Livia along to that hell realm, but he felt he had no other choice. It was either her or Xev, and Xev was kind of busy at the time. He also did not know Yrre, so his power couldn't tell him anything there.


message 49: by Marie (last edited Jun 08, 2018 03:02PM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Veronica wrote: "I'm now reading Deadmen Walking and .. I think Sherrilyn has finally succeeded in completely confusing me. I was so sure I completely understood Thorn/his lineage and .. I'm not even done with the ..."

About Thorn, here is the way it went down:

Noir and Lucifer were in some sort of turf war I think. Lucifer's wife was also sleeping with Paimon (Noir's son) on the side. So Noir enlisted Paimon in a scheme to screw with Lucifer. Paimon used his father's (Noir's) sperm to impregnate Lucifer's wife. Thorn was raised with Lucifer as his father until it came out that Paimon had knocked up Lucifer's wife.

In the series, people with varying levels of information about the situation tend to believe either that Lucifer is Thorn's father or that Noir is his grandfather (through Paimon). They don't generally know that Noir is Thorn's dad, Paimon was (literally) the sperm donor, and Lucifer was the cuckold adoptive father.

Before that came out, different references to Thorn's lineage merely mentioned that Lucifer was his father or that Noir was his paternal grandfather. As such, I used to believe that Lucifer was Noir's son. Now I think I had put the pieces of the puzzle all wrong because I was basing my assumptions of the characters' inaccurate information, so the question remains: who are Lucifer's parents? Drawing from the bible stories and what we know of Lucifer as a character in the books, I'm guessing he started out as a Seraph or another Kalosum creature and was corrupted somehow.


message 50: by Marie (last edited Jun 08, 2018 03:03PM) (new)

Marie | 1447 comments Michael wrote: "Going back to an earlier part of this discussion (sorry}, but I just have to talk about this: Nick constantly being blind-sided. I think this is because of the following:

1. Nick's power works by ..."


I see what you mean. Still, in the books, his powers are framed as near-omniscience, but they don't seem all that foolproof if having insight into people's intent isn't all that reliable,


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