A Dance with Dragons (A Song of Ice and Fire, #5) A Dance with Dragons discussion


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Why I Can't Hate Cersei (Updated)

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Matthew Williams Hey all! This thread is a continuation of the one from A Clash of Kings, but updated to cover the most recent material. As such, it is assumed that if you are participating in this forum, you've read up to the end of ADWD.


Cherie good :P I can't read blocked spoilers on my phone so this should be better


Iris I can't hate Cersei because she has done everything she has done by feeling like she had no other choice. Her whole life she has been backed into a corner and told to sit or stay just fuming with the unfairness of it all. So when she does get the chance to act on her own she goes for the most radical action she can think of.

Also I believe that she genuinely does love Jamie and her children, and she will do whatever it takes to keep them safe and together. That's a good mom right there.


Annemarie Donahue I can't hate Cersei because that last scene with her in the Dragons book is just bad ass. Fester, rage, fester.
Also, there's a great show on Sci-Fi called Defiance and the character Shtama opened my eyes to how much I just love villains.


Matthew Williams Iris wrote: "I can't hate Cersei because she has done everything she has done by feeling like she had no other choice. Her whole life she has been backed into a corner and told to sit or stay just fuming with t..."

Really? How has she been backed into a corner? She may have been forced to marry Robert, but she wasn't forced to murder him. She began plotting it even before Ned confronted her with the truth, and she was given the option to leave King's Landing without incident.

Instead, she chose to kill him and condemn Ned so she could advance her own agenda of making her son king and getting herself into a position of power. Framing Margaery Tyrell was done out of petty jealousy, and her mistreatment and attempted murder of Tyrion was done out of cruelty and paranoia.

Then there was the way she spurned Jaime when it was clear he didn't agree with the way she was running things, or her decision to kill Tyrion. And she slept with Lancel while still claiming to be in love with Jaime, which would seem to indicate that she never really loved him, just used him as she did Lancel, Pycelle, Baelish and Kettleback.

Combined with her cronyism, her use of sex to get her way, and the way she constantly blames everyone for her failure and constantly thinks she's the victim, makes her a terrible person and character, in my humble estimation.


Iris Matthew, you make very tangible points; you can easily reference them in the story. But I'm referring to the time it took for her to do those things. She's married to Robert for nearly twenty years before she decides to kill him. What do you think she has been doing all that time? Taking all of his shit, that's what. That's what I mean by backed into a corner. She had her life stolen away in a sense and when she finally realized it she decided to take action and claim what was left of it.


Matthew Williams Iris wrote: "Matthew, you make very tangible points; you can easily reference them in the story. But I'm referring to the time it took for her to do those things. She's married to Robert for nearly twenty years..."

Yes, and she was also having an affair with Jaime, plotting Robert's demise, and waiting for the day when her children were of age so she could kill him and maneuver one of them into power. It's true, she suffered terribly under Robert. But, reading the text closely, it's clear that she's been this way since an early age.

Much like her father, she is ruthless and cruel. But unlike him, she is not cunning or clever, and instead relies on her beauty to get her way, thinks that anybody who is not obedient or sleeping with her is a potential enemy, and always blames others, her gender, or anything else she can for her predicament. It's all in there, I tell ya.


message 8: by Iris (last edited Jul 30, 2014 04:31PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Iris I have to disagree again. Cersei only relied on her beauty because she wasn't allowed to advance her wits. Her father wouldn't allow it, nor would he allow her to learn the art of the sword. What else is a woman to do?

If Cersei wasn't a woman then no one would think anything of her. And I don't mean to sound all feminist or Freudian with the penis envy thing, but come on, a man could take a lover and have bastards galore and no one bats an eye. But Cersei has to cloak up her bastard kids with the name Baratheon. (and even ignoring the incest thing, she would have to do that regardless)

Add all of these things up and you have a pretty sympathetic character, at least in my opinion.


Annemarie Donahue @Iris - You make a really good point for feeling bad for Cersei. Matthew's correct in pointing out that Cersei had been having an affair (there's got be a gerund for this) with Jamie all that time (and in my opinion, they were schtupping in-uteri!). But there's a small part of me that wants to feel bad for the Cersei who was told by her cold, ruthless father that she was marrying Robert Baratheon, a man she didn't know and didn't love. She would leave her home, marry this man and have children. RB was open in his affairs behind her back and right in front of her. I don't think they could have ever had a relationship. But there's one good flashback scene to Cersei pre-Robert's rebellion when she's walking around with a couple of girlfriends and gets her future read, and you can just hear her heartbreak at that moment.
So I can feel bad for that Cersei. Cersei at the end of DOD, nope, no sympathy. Just watching her the same way I watch a shark, with evil delight knowing I'm not food.


message 10: by Iris (new) - rated it 3 stars

Iris I know that at the end of ADWD Cersei is just mean and shallow and cruel, but I can't hate her. She was molded into it, used to playing the part and figures it's too late to change. So although I frown at her response to things, I can't hate Cersei.


Annemarie Donahue @Iris - I just love that final image GRRM leaves the reader with. Shaved bald hugging a robe around her, covered in filth thrown from the crowd and seething with rage. I loved it, not because I could find pity for her in that moment, but because at that moment she defied pity and just embraced rage and vengeance. I'm not saying she's a great human, but there's just something about her at that moment I just loved!


Cherie Iris Cersei was a horrible person throughout her life: take for example the part where Oberyn tells Tyrion about how Cersei used to abuse Tyrion as a baby and say that he should die and that he wasn't a baby he waas a monster. Jaime was never like this to his brother. Cersei has been cruel long before her forced marriage to Robert.


message 13: by Matthew (last edited Jul 30, 2014 07:12PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Iris wrote: "I have to disagree again. Cersei only relied on her beauty because she wasn't allowed to advance her wits. Her father wouldn't allow it, nor would he allow her to learn the art of the sword. What e..."

She got to use her wits to plot against Robert, to set up Ned, to run things through Joffrey's rule, and when she was Queen Regent. And the results were disastrous every time. She couldn't control Joffrey, which resulted in Ned's death and the outbreak of war. She couldn't run King's Landing, so Tyrion had to do it for her (while she conspired to destroy him, even though she needed him). And with her father dead, she made one bad decision after another until it all backfired and landed her in a cell in the Grand Sept.

It's interesting to me that people who like Cersei bring up her father and her gender and what not. Mainly because that's exactly what she thinks. She too blames her limitations on her gender, on society, on her father, and anyone else she can. But in the end, she fails because she's not nearly as clever or able as she thinks she is.


message 14: by Matthew (last edited Jul 30, 2014 07:09PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Iris wrote: "I have to disagree again. Cersei only relied on her beauty because she wasn't allowed to advance her wits. Her father wouldn't allow it, nor would he allow her to learn the art of the sword. What e..."

As for the double standard thing, I don't see how that works. Constantly, I hear people making that defense of Cersei, but it's not borne out by what anyone is saying. All I hear in these forums is what a rotten man Robert was for his abusive behavior, his philandering, and his drunkenness.

And her father's cruelty and Pyter Baelish's constant betrayals is something I'm always hearing about. I myself criticize these characters for being total bastards, as they deserve. So I don't see how Cersei is being treated unfairly when her male counterparts are getting a pass. She's being judged for her behavior, just like the others.


message 15: by Annemarie (last edited Jul 30, 2014 07:22PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Annemarie Donahue @Matthew - I think it's a valuable lens to look through (gender). Cersei is certainly right to say that her gender is a hindrance, and the reader is right to say that this could be a source of frustration to her. Characters like Arya and Brienne were able to transcend gender roles only because they had indulgent fathers, this isn't power, it's merely agency and it's frustrating.

I will give you that she walked RIGHT into that last trap (literally) which, as you allude to, she actually created. She's not as smart as she thinks, because well, no one is really. (except the Spider, I think that guy knew how this story ended before GRRM did!).

Cersei is right to mention her gender. There's no denying it kep her from having the life she wanted, mainly because what she wanted rated for sh8t! I'm not saying she'd be saint Cersei if she were a guy, but that frustration would be gone and maybe (just maybe) she might not have been such a crazy b-word.

ps - Also excuse me for jumping into the conversation, I'm not trying to be rude but I'm probably being rude. You two are having a really intelligent conversation and it's fascinating to read. :)


Matthew Williams Annemarie wrote: "@Matthew - I think it's a valuable lens to look through (gender). Cersei is certainly right to say that her gender is a hindrance, and the reader is right to say that this could be a source of frus..."

I agree, her gender is certainly an issue in this world. And I'm often unable, arguing from my side as I am, that I sympathize with her over her loveless sham of a marriage to Robert which included rape. But at the same time, she exhausts any sympathy from me because of the way she constantly hurts others while assuming the role of victim.

Rude? Not at all. Good to have you! And I'm glad this new thread is carrying over from the old and got off to a running start.


Annemarie Donahue @Matthew - she's is definitely a complicated character. I think I love her deviousness more than sympathize with her. And I like that I can do that. In a weird way I feel like GRRM was actually being really forward when he created such a ruthless female character with little to give the reader to want to sympathize with. A weird feminism and I could be reading into it too deeply.


Matthew Williams Annemarie wrote: "@Matthew - she's is definitely a complicated character. I think I love her deviousness more than sympathize with her. And I like that I can do that. In a weird way I feel like GRRM was actually bei..."

I often wonder if people reading her character will think Martin is being misogynistic. Her behavior does seem in keeping with the idea of the evil, vindictive, rule-by-her-emotions kind of caricature. But by adding the difficulty in her background, there's just enough to keep us talking.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I appreciate that she's an interesting character. And I do think that her motivations and back story, if not she herself, is complex. But I do contest it when people defend her or say that she would not be considered evil if she were a man.


Laura Herzlos Matthew wrote: "I guess what I'm getting at is that I appreciate that she's an interesting character. And I do think that her motivations and back story, if not she herself, is complex."

We're making progress! Just to make you shake your head, I just read a deep analysis (with quotes from the text, I love quotes from the books) about who really killed Ned Stark. No, it wasn't Cersei. It's early, I haven't had coffee and have to run to the office, but I'll jump in later.


Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I guess what I'm getting at is that I appreciate that she's an interesting character. And I do think that her motivations and back story, if not she herself, is complex."

We're mak..."


Are you sure you don't mean Jon Arryn. Because we know who killed Ned. It was Ser Ilyn Payne, who did it on Joffrey's order. Is that what you were talking about?


Laura Herzlos No, Jon Arryn was settled on the other thread. You can suspect, but not prove anything other than Lysa did it because Littlefinger asked her.

You said she condemned Ned and I thought you meant his death. Someone whispered on Joffrey's ear to give the order, because it was a surprise to some people but it was prepared. I really really have to run now, I'm late! See ya!


Trysh Laura wrote: "No, Jon Arryn was settled on the other thread. You can suspect, but not prove anything other than Lysa did it because Littlefinger asked her.

You said she condemned Ned and I thought you meant his..."


I cannot recall exactly which book it's in but there is absolutely no suspecting on Jon Arryn's death. Lysa flat out says that she poisoned her husband because Littlefinger told her that once she did (sending the letter to Lady Cat was part of the plan/deal) they could be together.

Also, I saw no indication of Ned's death being planted in Joffrey's mind. It was a surprise to everyone. Cersei was condemned by several different characters for her inability to control Joffrey. Joffrey was a vindictive little brat, who got off on seeing death and pain. His character, in my opinion, is meant to be a living representation of Aerys Targaryen, the Mad King. I believe that is talked about a little in that the Iron Throne physically rejected them both by cutting them whenever they sat upon it. Ned's death was an example of how out of control and psychotic Joffrey was.


Annemarie Donahue Trysh wrote: "Laura wrote: "No, Jon Arryn was settled on the other thread. You can suspect, but not prove anything other than Lysa did it because Littlefinger asked her.

You said she condemned Ned and I thought..."


I thought she poisoned Jon because he was going to send their son to the Starks for rearing.
GRRM makes it pretty clear that Cersei had no intention of killing Ned. She even got to have a narrative about how useful he would have been alive as a hostage.


Annemarie Donahue Matthew wrote: "Annemarie wrote: "@Matthew - she's is definitely a complicated character. I think I love her deviousness more than sympathize with her. And I like that I can do that. In a weird way I feel like GRR..."

Weirdly I actually feel like he's not being misogynistic, but I can see how people would read his writing Cersei this way. It's almost a compliment to women that we can have this vindictive evil character who was not made this way through repetitive bad treatment. She's not a perpetual victim but rather a constant villain. I'm not saying I'm thrilled with GRRM's treatment of women overall, but at least I can be a badguy in his universe.
To quote Jane, "Shiny, let's be badguys."


message 25: by Iris (new) - rated it 3 stars

Iris Okay, Okay, I'm not saying Cersei is a saint. I know her treatment of Tyrion is abysmal at best and cruel at worst. And Martin a misogynist? No. Cersei isn't always a victim even though she has had her fair share of hardship, but this is Westeros we're talking about, who hasn't? She does come across as villainous, but in Westeros nothing is black and white, and things aren't always what they seem.

And you can't blame Joffrey on Cersei. Almost no one could control that sociopath. She did her best to keep him dormant, even almost apologizing to Tyrion for his crazed ways.


Laura Herzlos Iris wrote: "Okay, Okay, I'm not saying Cersei is a saint. I know her treatment of Tyrion is abysmal at best and cruel at worst. And Martin a misogynist? No. Cersei isn't always a victim even though she has had..."

That. You're nailing exactly what I mean today. Everywhere! :D


message 27: by Iris (new) - rated it 3 stars

Iris And even with all of your ample reasons to the contrary, I still don't think she's bad. There's more to her than that. Someone I think is just straight evil would be Little Finger. Only ever thinks of himself. At least Cersei is driven by family and love.

I can't hate her. She is too good a character to just label as the bad guy and to throw all of the blame and hate on.


Laura Herzlos Trysh wrote: "I saw no indication of Ned's death being planted in Joffrey's mind. It was a surprise to everyone"

Most people were surprised, but not all. I read an interesting analysis (kind of long), quotes and all, but I don't know if this is the right thread, because it doesn't involve Cersei. But if you want I can pass you the link, just send me a message if you're interested.


Laura Herzlos About Jon Arryn's death, yes, Lysa confesses that it was all Littlefinger's plan, including telling Cat that the Lannisters did it.

“Tears, tears, tears,” she sobbed hysterically. “No need for tears... but that’s not what you said in King’s Landing. You told me to put the tears in Jon’s wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said.”


message 30: by Annemarie (last edited Jul 31, 2014 08:42AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Annemarie Donahue Laura wrote: "About Jon Arryn's death, yes, Lysa confesses that it was all Littlefinger's plan, including telling Cat that the Lannisters did it.

“Tears, tears, tears,” she sobbed hysterically. “No need for tea..."


AH! Thank you. This is what comes from my reading the books too quickly so I could catch up with everyone when DOD came out first edition.


Akash Goel Cersei is mentally challenged I think. She's one of those people who would intentionally hurt others because they subconsciously believe that they are in grave danger all the time. That is also the reason, I believe, for her unnerving lust for power and control. It's all she ever thinks about. And incest.


Laura Herzlos Annemarie wrote: "AH! Thank you. This is what comes from my reading the books too quickly so I could catch up with everyone when DOD came out first edition."

I was planning on re-reading the whole thing before The Winds of Winter. I'm sure I will have more than enough time.


Laura Herzlos Akash wrote: "Cersei is mentally challenged I think. She's one of those people who would intentionally hurt others because they subconsciously believe that they are in grave danger all the time. That is also the..."

You may want to open your Google and search "mentally challenged", so that you avoid using that as an insult. It is offensive to mentally challenged people to use it to insult someone, fictional or not, that you dislike.


message 34: by Akash (last edited Jul 31, 2014 09:06AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Akash Goel Laura wrote: "Akash wrote: "Cersei is mentally challenged I think. She's one of those people who would intentionally hurt others because they subconsciously believe that they are in grave danger all the time. Th..."

I think you thought more on the lines of "intellectual disability", while I was implying more of a psychiatric rage (the kind that leads you to get institutionalized). Personally, I have no truck with either of them.


Annemarie Donahue @Akash - do you mean she could be a sociopath? I can see that, but would ultimately say no as she's too emotional and the very little I know about that disorder is it's really nothing like Hollywood makes it out to be.


Mitali Iris wrote: "At least Cersei is driven by family and love."

I really don't know how anyone who has read all the books can think Cersei is motivated by love or family. Her POV chapters in AFFC make it blatantly clear that her primary motivation is a lust for power and acute narcissism. Everything she does is done in order to maintain control over all aspects of her life (including her kids), and to gain power.

Does she love her kids? Sure, but in a possessive sort of way. If she really was a mother who loved her son, she would see that a girl like Margaery was very good for Tommen - they are genuinely fond of each other and she's exactly the kind of intelligent and supportive wife a king needs. But instead, all Cersei thinks is that Margaery is 'stealing' her son away from her, and sets out to destroy her.

AFFC also makes it clear that Cersei doesn't love Jaime anymore. How many times does Jaime think of Cersei in his POV chapters in ASOS and AFFC? Even when he's furious with her in the latter, he thinks about her all the time (about her infidelity). How many times does Cersei think about Jaime? Less than half a dozen times, I think. She may have been in love with him once, but she's long since got over it. Now, he's just another pawn in her game to gain power.


Trysh Iris wrote: "And even with all of your ample reasons to the contrary, I still don't think she's bad. There's more to her than that. Someone I think is just straight evil would be Little Finger. Only ever thinks..."

Cersei is the only character that has not swayed at all in her actions. She is manipulative, conniving, and selfish. None of her motivations ever change. The few times that she may seem be acting out of motherly love, it turns out she has an ulterior motive. More often then not I want to shake her and say "What the hell is wrong with you!"

Her brothers, both Tyrion and Jamie, are truly complex characters with moments where you love to hate them, but then they have some deeper human moments where you see that they are not inherently evil. Cersei does not ever have those moments. Her human moments just further my inability to not only like her, but to feel any sympathy for her at all.

Littlefinger is a selfish jerk a lot of the time, but I believe he truly loved Lady Catelyn, at least he did once upon time. I don't believe he's evil, though. When he threw Lysa out of the moondoor I actually liked him even more.

Your complete inability to hate Cersei is matched by my inability to like her.


Laura Herzlos @Akash: your term is wrong. Mentally challenged is not what you think it means.

@Mitali: GRRM himself said that she loves Jaime and her children, in different interviews. And that's the impression I got reading all the books. Some things are subjective to opinion.


message 39: by Iris (new) - rated it 3 stars

Iris Okay, lol I give up. I can't make you guys like her. I just thought this was a forum for people who actually liked Cersei.


Laura Herzlos Trysh wrote: "Iris wrote: "And even with all of your ample reasons to the contrary, I still don't think she's bad. There's more to her than that. Someone I think is just straight evil would be Little Finger. Onl..."

I can't believe you would enjoy the death of a clearly mentally ill (not challenged) person, who became that way after she was forced to give up the unrequited love, abort her baby, marry an old man and then got manipulated by Littlefinger for his own selfish goals. But that's probably for another thread.

I also find it interesting that the Lannister brothers may have all the sins we read about (like, throwing a child to his death, murdering several people, murdering a woman, raping a servant, etc.) and they are forgiven, but the Lannister woman is to be loathed.


Laura Herzlos Iris wrote: "Okay, lol I give up. I can't make you guys like her. I just thought this was a forum for people who actually liked Cersei."

Well, it's open to anyone, so Cersei haters will certainly want to come and explain us why we should hate her too. It's to be expected.


message 42: by Iris (last edited Jul 31, 2014 10:44AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Iris @Laura "I also find it interesting that the Lannister brothers may have all the sins we read about (like, throwing a child to his death, murdering several people, murdering a woman, raping a servant, etc.) and they are forgiven, but the Lannister woman is to be loathed."

Thank you.

"Well, it's open to anyone, so Cersei haters will certainly want to come and explain us why we should hate her too. It's to be expected"

I know, it makes for interesting banter.


Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "No, Jon Arryn was settled on the other thread. You can suspect, but not prove anything other than Lysa did it because Littlefinger asked her.

You said she condemned Ned and I thought you meant his..."


No, the Jon Arryn discussion was not settled, because I have yet to offer all the proof there is. We were saving it for this forum to avoid spoilers, remember? Anyway, here it is in full:

For starters, there's the conversation in AGOT between Jaime and Cersei that we've already shared, the one which Bran overhears:

Cersei: "His wife (Ned) is Lysa Arryn's sister. It's a wonder Lysa was not here to greet us with her accusations."
Jaime: "Let Lady Arryn grow as bold as she likes. Whatever she knows, whatever she thinks she knows, she has no proof... Or does she?"


Later, on Pg. 354, Varys says the following during the council meeting where Robert orders the poisoning of Danaerys:

“Now poison...the tears of Lys, let us say. Khal Drogo need never know it was not a natural death.”

Grand Maester Pycelle’s sleepy eyes flicked open. He squinted suspiciously at the eunuch.


This strongly implies that Varys is hinting at something that Pycelle was involved in and Pycelle suspects it. In ACOK's, he confirms this and more when he says to Tyrion:

"The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her, I knew. It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it.”

Thus, we get it from Pycelle himself, while on the business end of Shagga's blade, that Cersei implicitly told him that Arryn was to die, and that he outsourced the job of killing him.

And then there's Lysa Arryn's quote, which you've cited, that proves that she administered the poison at Baelish's request. Baelish, as we know, was Cersei and Pycelle's man in King's Landing and conspired with them to bring down Ned. So it's quite obvious from all of this that they all were involved, starting with Cersei and ending with Lysa killing her husband.


Laura Herzlos Your evidence is that Pycelle thought that he knew what Cersei was thinking by looking at her? Sorry, Matthew, but that is no proof. Again, it is just a hint and may be true or false.


Mitali Laura wrote: "@Mitali: GRRM himself said that she loves Jaime and her children, in different interviews."

That's the authorial intention fallacy* - GRRM may intend for her to genuinely love Jaime and her kids, but that's not how she comes across in the books. Either his intentions don't match with what he actually shows in the books, or (more likely), he was just simplifying a complex character, whose motivations can't really be reduced to a soundbite in an interview.

*The author of any book (or any other form of fiction) is not the final word on his/her work. Sure, readers should accept his/her word on the basic facts of the story - for example, we can't very well choose to believe that GRRM is lying or mistaken about the crazy seasons in Westeros. But we can choose not to accept his interpretation of a character.

Laura wrote: "I also find it interesting that the Lannister brothers may have all the sins we read about (like, throwing a child to his death, murdering several people, murdering a woman, raping a servant, etc.) and they are forgiven, but the Lannister woman is to be loathed."

This isn't a gender thing. I consider myself an ardent feminist, but that doesn't mean I have to sympathize with a sociopathic character just because she happens to be female.

Tyrion and Jaime are both grey characters: Tyrion is likeable from the beginning of the series, and though he does some truly horrific things later on, there's an understandable reason for them, so he remains sympathetic. Jaime is a monster at the beginning - until I read ASOS, I hated him far more than I hated Cersei. After reading his viewpoint chapters in ASOS and ADWD, and seeing how he tries to turn himself around and do the right thing for once, I became much more sympathetic towards him. Cersei has no such redeeming qualities: all she does is use people for her own selfish ends, for no understandable reason, and she never repents at all. She's not even funny or charming like Tyrion or Jaime - so it's hard to like her at all.


Trysh Laura wrote: "Trysh wrote: "Iris wrote: "And even with all of your ample reasons to the contrary, I still don't think she's bad. There's more to her than that. Someone I think is just straight evil would be Litt..."

I feel bad for Tyrion. He's a man, and he was treated way worse by their father than Cersei ever was, and yet he still had some decency in him. He treated Sansa (whom I also don't like) with respect, even when it wasn't appreciated nor reciprocated. If Shae is the woman you're referring to him murdering, the whore deserved it. I also understand why he did Tywin in. He is smart enough to know he's not as clever as he thinks he is as well. He tried to help Cersei in his own impish way, and while a lot of his motivation is self preservation, he's not cruel for cruelty's sake.

I don't know which brother you're saying raped a servant, but I'm going to assume Tyrion because Jamie has been faithful to Cersei their entire life. I don't recall what you're referring to.

Jamie threw Bran out of the window in a fear response, to protect Cersei. He didn't have remorse for it, because he did it to protect Cersei. He truly loved her, was there for the births of all three of their children. I used loved in the past tense because I believe his time away gave him a reprieve and when he saw her again he was able to start seeing her for exactly who she was. Jamie is, above all else, a soldier. It's wired into him to kill. That's not an excuse for his actions, though. His later attitude shows growth beyond what was simply expected of him, and though I did not like in the beginning, I grew to respect him as a character.

Especially once he confided why he killed Aerys. Where most saw it as a lust for power, and his act to propel his family higher into the hierarchy, I understood it as a cause of massive internal turmoil. He not only did it on his father's orders, but he did it for Westeros. Aerys was going to burn the entire realm. A king is swore to protect the realm, the kingsguard to protect the king, that oath should include protecting him from himself.

Jamie kills people, yes, but at least he is upfront in his intentions. Cersei not only is sneaky, she is like Charles Manson in that she convinces others to do her dirty work for her. She uses sex and bribery to con the people around her into bending to her will.

My feelings toward her have very little to do with her sex (aside from the fact that she uses it as a crutch and an excuse). She lacks depth. What you see is what you get: A neurotic, paranoid, control freak.


message 47: by Matthew (last edited Jul 31, 2014 11:45AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Williams Laura wrote: "Your evidence is that Pycelle thought that he knew what Cersei was thinking by looking at her? Sorry, Matthew, but that is no proof. Again, it is just a hint and may be true or false."

Laura, if you choose not to believe it, that's certainly your business. But the standard of proof you're asking for seems unrealistic to say the least. Cersei knew that Arryn had discovered her secret and told Pycelle of this. The only reason she didn't say outright "kill the man!" was because they knew Varys had spies that were likely listening in.

What more proof do you need? Are you arguing from a legal standpoint, because by any other standard, this seems like a pretty open and shut case here.


Trysh Laura wrote: "Trysh wrote: "Iris wrote: "And even with all of your ample reasons to the contrary, I still don't think she's bad. There's more to her than that. Someone I think is just straight evil would be Litt..."

In response to my enjoying the fact that Lysa was killed stemmed from my hatred of Lysa. I wished for so long that someone would strangle her. Robert is better off without her, and I have a weak spot for children with bad mothers. Lysa was more likely than not severely mentally disturbed, which added to my pleasure in her death. She was hateful from her own insecurities, and high on power to the point of full blown delusions. Baelish may be power hungry, selfish and devious, he is rarely outright cruel to those who he doesn't think deserve it, unlike Cersei. He's also smart enough to realize that he may be outsmarted if he becomes too arrogant. I believe that he is the most skilled player in the Game of Thrones, right up there with Varrys.

He has a depth that Cersei simply does not possess, but thinking about it now, I may find Cersei irritating because of her overestimation of her own intelligence. She thinks of her intelligence on par with that of Varrys, Littlefinger and Tyrion, and she is not. Her arrogance causes her to put herself in ridiculous situations, and because she brought it on herself, I, once again cannot feel bad for her.


Matthew Williams Trysh wrote: "Laura wrote: "Trysh wrote: "Iris wrote: "And even with all of your ample reasons to the contrary, I still don't think she's bad. There's more to her than that. Someone I think is just straight evil..."

Peas in a pod, Trysh! Peas-in-a-pod!


message 50: by Laura (last edited Jul 31, 2014 12:06PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Laura Herzlos Oh, where to start...

@Mitali: What you interpret from the books is not the only valid interpretation of the text, the same as mine isn't either. The text leaves me the impression that she does love Jaime and her children, while it gives you the opposite impression. That is because we are both different people who see things differently. I read the interview where GRRM said this yesterday, but I've been saying that she loves them for at least three days, so GRRM is not my only reason for thinking that.

@Matthew: What you interpret from the books is not the only valid interpretation of the text, the same as mine isn't either. You see those things as final proof that Cersei gave the order; I don't. Personally, I think Littlefinger has his own agenda and it's not Lannister-based.

@Trysh: You are doing a gender-based differentiation, whether you know it consciously or not. You have two male and two female characters who have all suffered, and who have all done terrible things. You not only sympathize with the men only, but also hate the women so much, that you insist that you took pleasure in the violent death of a mentally ill woman. Actually, the fact that she was mentally ill gave you more pleasure in her death. There is nothing else I will discuss with you, because such levels of ableism I find utterly disgusting and simply cannot stomach.


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