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Intersectional Feminism > Two kinds of feminism

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message 1: by Britt (new)

Britt | 123 comments I just read this article in The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018...

Basically, it says that the #MeToo movement has created a rift within feminism, between individualist feminists and social feminism.

I think the article is very interesting, but also, the "rift" it describes is a very good debate subject!

I think most of us on here would describe themselves as social feminists and fully support the #MeToo movement. However, I can't help but agree with certain parts of individual feminism too.

So, let's talk about this! What are your opinions on the matter? Do you agree with the article?

To finish off my post, I'll share my favourite paragraph of the article, which appears towards the end:

#MeToo, however, has made it clear that solidarity among women is possible. The working definition of “women”, as #MeToo has constructed it, can be understood simply: as everyone who has experienced misogyny. It’s a bleak kind of solidarity, this acknowledgment of shared suffering. But #MeToo has transformed that mournful acknowledgment into something much more hopeful. If the #MeToo movement has prompted many women to focus on misogynist behaviour with a unifying grief and anger, it has also led many of them to contemplate our shared power and common vision for a different world. When the social feminists of #MeToo call for changes that would make harassment, assault and other forms of misogyny rare, their very act of collective imagining makes such a world more possible: the more we stand together in this demand, the easier it becomes to imagine a world where respect is common, where cruelty is rare, where all of us think with more empathy and intelligence about the lives of others, and where being women will not doom us to suffering or limitation.

True that.


message 2: by Susan (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) That's a great article. Britt. Thanks for sharing it. I agree with you Keith that it's sad. Why do we have to take sides? Won't women make more progress if we stand together in sisterhood rather than complain about who is right and put our sisters down for standing up for themselves?


message 3: by James (new)

James Corprew Keith wrote: "Isn't it time to take the best from all 'waves' of feminism and start to build more of a consensus within the movement?."

People keep saying that this should be done but i have yet to see anyone come up with any good ideas or framework to do something like that. Furthermore, its easy to come up with a game plan but much harder to convince those who have different ideals within feminism to actually accept the game plan.

And i agree Britt, great article and it touched on a lot of my concerns that is going on with the #MeToo movement so thanks for sharing that.


message 4: by Susan (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) I have come up with a framework to do it. It is hard to convince those with different ideas. It's about being your own "Brand of Sexy" and a sense of sisterhood so that women support each other in being accepted for who they are rather than pressuring us to conform to unhealthy ideas about beauty and sexuality.


message 5: by James (new)

James Corprew Keith wrote: ".You are so right James - forgive me for making any kind of opinion comment on any topic - I won't bother again; I will just stick to facts from now on and not discussion points. "

I never said you couldnt have the opinion or comment, not even sure why you took what i said so personally. You mentioned that people should be able to debate issues but then the minute i make a point you seem to want to shut it down. My apologies for trying to point out some of the problems with your theory please carry on and i will bow out of the conversation.


message 6: by Lilly (new)

Lilly Amechi (lillyamechi) I think that victims of sexual assault need to grieve and feel angry. No one should be expected to "buck up" and get over such a disgusting crime. I think individual feminism is important, but not at the cost of others. People who sexually assault others should be exposed. There is no reason to accept this type of behavior. These feminists are allowing rape culture and misogynistic thoughts to cloud their perception of sexual assault. If one just laughs sexual assault off, there will be more and more crimes committed without justice. No one knew the horrors that actually happened in Hollywood until people spoke up about it. That just goes to show we need socialist feminism.

I will agree that the #Metoo movement can't definitely be oppressive without realizing it, but that means that we all need to be aware of the intersectionality of feminism and support it at all times. That means supporting all types of feminism and correcting the wrongs we've come to normalize.


message 7: by Susan (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) Yes, Lilly. That sounds like an ideal way to approach feminism. It just seems like feminism is splintered. How do you think we can bring it together again?


message 8: by Lilly (new)

Lilly Amechi (lillyamechi) I think that we need to separate feminism and misandrism. I've recently realized so many people believe feminists are misandrists, which is extremely sad. Just like the split in the second wave feminism, I think we can obtain common ground and fight hard for those things, we will be fine. Just like in religion, there are always going to be different "denominations" of feminists, but I think we should accept each other to keep peace and harmony.


message 9: by Julie (new)

Julie (julaine) | 9 comments I don't know if there is a way to separate feminism and misandrism collectively, but I feel like it's a good idea to keep them separate personally. I don't know a lot about feminism, that's one of the reasons I joined the club. But it seems to me that feminism is a social justice philosophy of equal rights for women. Misandrism is a personal issue.


message 10: by Courtney (new)

Courtney Cepec | 2 comments I highly recommend the book “The Nowhere Girls” by Amy Reed. It’s a phenomenal book about activism and women working together to seek justice for a rape victim.

http://www.amyreedfiction.com/books/t...


message 11: by Julie (new)

Julie (julaine) | 9 comments Courtney wrote: "I highly recommend the book “The Nowhere Girls” by Amy Reed. It’s a phenomenal book about activism and women working together to seek justice for a rape victim.

http://www.amyreedfiction.com/book..."


Thanks for the recommendation. I kind of wish we had 'like' button for comments :)


message 12: by Julie (new)

Julie (julaine) | 9 comments Britt wrote: "I just read this article in The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018...

Basically, it says that the #MeToo ..."


Beautiful article. I loved the part about taking the table apart to put it back together again. This is why: I don't think any of the different parts of the feminist movement are wrong, I think we need to restructure our views of right way and wrong way. That calls for a taking apart our thinking, getting curious about our ways of doing and being collectively and individually. Both the social feminists and the #metoo movements have valid points and ways of doing things - do they always work for creating a more equal and just society? Probably not, but for creating the movement toward a more equal and just society, I think yes. If for the simple reason that it makes, at least some of us, stop and think, get curious, broaden our perspective. Thanks for the read.


message 13: by Susan (new)

Susan Edelman (beyourownbrandofsexy) I like the idea of separating feminism and misandrism, but it does seem hard to accomplish. I was following another chat about modern dating and the men were quoting some very prominent feminists saying things that didn't sound so good about men.


message 14: by nil (new)

nil (nilnil) Lilly wrote: "I think that victims of sexual assault need to grieve and feel angry. No one should be expected to "buck up" and get over such a disgusting crime. I think individual feminism is important, but not ..."

Lilly I agree with everything you have said here, including your comment about separating feminism and misandry. I also think that there needs to be a LOT of discussion about what intersectionality is, because, to me, an even bigger rift in feminism comes when talking about intersectional experiences and privilege. I also got the impression from the representation of the "individualist" feminism that it was centered in a lot of internalized misogyny. Even having a prominent focus on boot-strapping and expected modes of responses from victims is centered in Calvinist ideology (and ties to capitalism) that I personally find to be incredibly problematic outside of feminism as well.

Susan, you mentioned prominent feminists saying things that didn't sound so good about men, and because I don't know which examples you are using I don't really know whether or not they are actually misandrist. Since misandry is essentially the opposite ideology of misogyny, I think to qualify it would have to be representative of an overarching ideology of the active oppression of men as being on the whole inferior because of their gender. Expressing criticism, or even making statements out of anger at men and the system of patriarchy does not qualify as misandry. I have seen many examples of men that take critical (of men) statements out of context of feminist thought to support their position.

One of my primary concerns about many of these discussions is really not about differing ideologies on their own, it is about the platforms we have to discuss them broadly and some of the inherent issues with communicating via the internet, and how Internet culture has affected how discussions play out. I think that this video gives a good representation of how emotion propagates on the Internet https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...
and it is similar to The Meme Machine and I do think that it creates a lot of discord between groups of people that may generally agree.


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