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Agony Aunt > Legal Deposit Libraries

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message 1: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments It's odds on that this has cropped up before, so bear with me please!

I was always aware that there was a potential requirement to deposit any book published with the above but I've never been caught before, until now. I've now had a request for five copies of The Things You See... which is bad enough as it will cost me a small fortune from CreateSpace but is doubly irritating as it is more copies than I've sold :-(

Anyone else caught in this way?


message 2: by Jim (new)

Jim | 22176 comments I vaguely knew about it but had never thought about it.

I looked at this page
https://www.bl.uk/aboutus/legaldeposi...

at the end it says
I publish the same content in print and digital media; do I need to continue depositing print?
Yes, please, until you have successfully registered for depositing digitally and the British Library or another deposit library has confirmed that your digital content can be processed and preserved. We aim to help as many publishers as possible transfer from depositing print to depositing digitally, as soon as appropriate systems and adequate resources are in place, and mutually satisfactory arrangements are agreed.

so perhaps contact them and say you're digital as well?


message 3: by Rita (new)

Rita Chapman | 389 comments In Australia we have to provide a copy to the State Library and the Parliamentary Library, so that is the cost of two books from the US to here and then postage from here within Australia as well. I tend to look at it that they are there for posterity and there will be some small remembrance of me after I'm gone! The downside is you have to do it as soon as you publish and sometimes you pick up a couple of errors in the first run - not something you want to be remembered for!


message 4: by David (new)

David Manuel | 1147 comments Just curious: what's the penalty for failing to comply?


Patti (baconater) (goldengreene) | 61757 comments I found a PDF of the act.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2...

Looks like the library would have to take you to court and you could be fined an amount no greater than the cost of the book.

Court fees as well, I'd assume. I dunno. I ain't no lawyer.

Could be a nice little earner for libraries.


message 6: by David (new)

David Manuel | 1147 comments Patti (baconater) wrote: "I found a PDF of the act.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2...

Looks like the library would have to take you to court and you could be fined an amount no greater..."


Thanks for looking it up. Wow, imagine a library going to court to force an author to provide a copy of their book. Nobody wants any of my books that bad!

FYI, I published a friends non-fiction book with my bogus press and looked up getting it listed in the Library of Congress. I was able to get it into their database but had to fill out a description and a lot of other information in advance of publication. And then we had to send them a copy. But it worked. The difference is that the Library of Congress doesn't really want a record of every publication, certainly won't hound you for your book, and is still doubtful about self-published and small-press books, but they're adjusting.


message 7: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Seems to me that it amounts to a disproportionate tax on self-publishing. Six copies is nothing if you sell hundreds of thousands but if it equals your sales to date...


message 8: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Jim wrote: "I vaguely knew about it but had never thought about it.

I looked at this page
https://www.bl.uk/aboutus/legaldeposi...

at the end it says
I publish the same content in print and digit..."


Thanks Jim. I'll check that out :-)


message 9: by Jim (new)

Jim | 22176 comments Just phone them or email them and ask about digital


message 10: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Jim wrote: "Just phone them or email them and ask about digital"

Will do. I'll let you know the outcome :-)


message 11: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Quick update:

I've been in correspondence with the Agency for the Legal Deposit Libraries and they're definitely not playing ball re digital submissions. I did point out that it beggars belief, in 2018, that they want me to schlep 5 copies of a book from the U.S. to Edinburgh via Derbyshire just so that they can then send them to all points of the British Isles! However, they've put me in touch with the British Library, so we'll see where that leads us.


message 12: by Jim (new)

Jim | 22176 comments thanks for the update. Did you mention what the British library web page said about it?


message 13: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Jim wrote: "thanks for the update. Did you mention what the British library web page said about it?"

No, because I felt that would start a " that's the British Library, not us" conversation.


message 14: by Jim (new)

Jim | 22176 comments fair enough


message 15: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments I promised that I would post an update to this topic when I knew more, so here goes:

After protracted email correspondence between the Agency for the Legal Deposit Libraries and, latterly, the British Library and myself, it has now been agreed that the British Library can accept Kindle e-books (in a particular format) and that submission of these fulfils the requirements of the legislation and annuls the claim for physical copies. Hurrah!

They can't, apparently, do anything with the Kindle books thus deposited as they need their tech. chaps to come up with a solution as to how they can archive these for future reference, so they're just storing them for the time being.

Still, phew! :-)


Patti (baconater) (goldengreene) | 61757 comments Great news, Phil!

Thanks for the update!


message 17: by Jim (new)

Jim | 22176 comments thanks Phil


message 18: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth White | 2067 comments Phil, does this also annul the Legal Deposit Libraries' claim? Or do you still need to send off their five print copies to the agency?


message 19: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Elizabeth wrote: "Phil, does this also annul the Legal Deposit Libraries' claim? Or do you still need to send off their five print copies to the agency?"

Hi Elizabeth, yes, I checked and the British Library confirmed that it annuls the Legal Deposit Libraries' claim.


message 20: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth White | 2067 comments Thanks Phil. Way to go!


message 21: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Elizabeth wrote: "Thanks Phil. Way to go!"

It's swings and roundabouts, Elizabeth. I've just been knocked back by my local bookshop, which I'll explain in a separate post.


message 22: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Just when you think...

I've received a letter today from the British Library making a Legal Deposit Claim on The Things You See... (The 'Nostalgedy' Collection Book 5) by Philip Whiteland , which, you may recall, I deposited electronically more than a month ago!

There's a lot of talk about the coming of AI and how it might replace humans - from what I can see, it can't come soon enough ;-)


message 23: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments And in further news (not that anyone seemed particularly gripped by the last instalment) I've had an apology from the British Library. It seems it's a case of one section not being told by the other section, hence the letter. It remains to be seen if that's the end of it, but I'm hopeful :-)


message 24: by Jim (new)

Jim | 22176 comments let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

Thanks for keeping us updated Philip


message 25: by Alicia (new)

Alicia Ehrhardt (aliciabutcherehrhardt) | 4616 comments Does this apply to foreigners who want to sell in the UK?


message 26: by Benjamin (new)

Benjamin Appleby-Dean (benjaminappleby-dean) I always thought the legal requirement depended on the issuing of an ISBN - interesting to see that it doesn't.


message 27: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Benjamin wrote: "I always thought the legal requirement depended on the issuing of an ISBN - interesting to see that it doesn't."

I think you might be right, Benjamin. Certainly the request to me arose after I registered one of my ISBNs for this particular work. I guess this would answer Alicia's query too :-)


message 28: by Alicia (new)

Alicia Ehrhardt (aliciabutcherehrhardt) | 4616 comments Philip wrote: "Benjamin wrote: "I always thought the legal requirement depended on the issuing of an ISBN - interesting to see that it doesn't."

I think you might be right, Benjamin. Certainly the request to me ..."


The whole thing might make a fascinating Guest Blog Post - if you care to produce one, consider my blog a place to publish it. The rules for people publishing in a country may or may not depend on whether said people are citizens, residents, or foreigners wanting to be read there.

Ah, copyright law! International copyright law!


message 29: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Alicia wrote: "Philip wrote: "Benjamin wrote: "I always thought the legal requirement depended on the issuing of an ISBN - interesting to see that it doesn't."

I think you might be right, Benjamin. Certainly the..."


I'm no expert, Alicia. All of this has been a revelation to me! :-)


message 30: by Alicia (new)

Alicia Ehrhardt (aliciabutcherehrhardt) | 4616 comments It's gone on my To Do list, Philip, as another thing which might have to be investigated one of these days.

I have an American copyright; international treaties should cover me in the UK. Maybe I don't have to do anything. Let's hope.


message 31: by Philip (last edited Jul 19, 2018 06:40AM) (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments They're not all locked up yet!

On 17th July I received a second claim from the Legal Deposit Libraries pointing out that I had still not sent them the print copies of The Things You See... (The 'Nostalgedy' Collection Book 5) by Philip Whiteland they requested. In an effort (probably doomed) to cut down on further correspondence, I've sent them the whole message thread between the British Library and myself.

We await further developments ;-)


message 32: by Jim (new)

Jim | 22176 comments somebody seems to be desperately trying to protect their job. One charity up here sends out an email newsletter to friends and supporters.
The British Library has asked for their copies


message 33: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Jim wrote: "somebody seems to be desperately trying to protect their job. One charity up here sends out an email newsletter to friends and supporters.
The British Library has asked for their copies"


Strewth! And I thought I was hard done to!


message 34: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Might have finally cracked it!

Dear Philip,

Thank you for the updated information. Regrettably we were not informed of this going through so claimed in good faith. I can confirm that I have amended our records to reflect and that the Legal Deposit made in electronic format has been fulfilled.

Kind regards


message 35: by Kath (new)

Kath Middleton | 25096 comments Blimey! You might expect them to talk to one another! Well done for persisting.


message 36: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Kath wrote: "Blimey! You might expect them to talk to one another! Well done for persisting."

You would, wouldn't you? This is twice now that one section hasn't known what the other is doing! I'm a bit like a dog with a bone when I'm confronted by bureaucracy :-)


message 37: by AnneMarie (new)

AnneMarie Brear (annemariebrear) | 6 comments Just reading this conversation and I'm glad they are moving towards accepting ebooks. I send off each 5 copies when my Ingram Spark copies arrive, but it makes sense to be able to send them ebooks.


message 38: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments AnneMarie wrote: "Just reading this conversation and I'm glad they are moving towards accepting ebooks. I send off each 5 copies when my Ingram Spark copies arrive, but it makes sense to be able to send them ebooks."

It's clearly something that's in its infancy, AnneMarie. I would definitely contact them before you send them anything. At present they're not actually archiving them, just storing the e-books until someone figures out what to do with them!


message 39: by AnneMarie (new)

AnneMarie Brear (annemariebrear) | 6 comments Philip wrote: "AnneMarie wrote: "Just reading this conversation and I'm glad they are moving towards accepting ebooks. I send off each 5 copies when my Ingram Spark copies arrive, but it makes sense to be able to..."

Thanks, Philip.


message 40: by Jessica (last edited Dec 20, 2018 10:03AM) (new)

Jessica O'Toole (jayotee) | 8 comments Though I do whinge to myself having to fork out for 6 copies of my own book to "officially" publish, I do like to idea of having physical copies preserved all over Britain of my work, especially with the libraries they go out to. :)


message 41: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Yes, it's a comforting thought but I sell so few books that it is an expense I can ill afford.


message 42: by Bernie (new)

Bernie Morris (berniem) | 164 comments If you publish with KDP, they allow you to buy author copies at half price, up to 1,000, or only 5 if you like. These can be used to send to the 5 main British libraries, but later, you will receive a demand for 1 more book to be sent to the original British library. Not sure why this wasn't included in the first place - but at least you don't have to buy all your own books from Amazon any more at cost price.


message 43: by Philip (new)

Philip Whiteland | 3171 comments Bernie wrote: "If you publish with KDP, they allow you to buy author copies at half price, up to 1,000, or only 5 if you like. These can be used to send to the 5 main British libraries, but later, you will receiv..."

Yes, Bernie, thanks for that. I may have my figures all confused but I think it used to cost more via CreateSpace (which is where I started) than it now does with KDP. However, there is still a cost involved, which is somewhat difficult to justify if (like me) you sell one copy once in a blue moon. Therefore, the electronic submission suits me fine but I accept that others may be happier sending hard copies for posterity :-)


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