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Future Event or Historical Account?

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message 1: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Michiels | 46 comments What do you think of the war that breaks out in Heaven in Revelation 12:7? Do you think that is a historical account, or is it a future event?

I originally thought that it was a historical account, but I'm not exactly sure anymore.


message 2: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Definitely historical. Revelation does necessarily imply a consecutive timeline.

It also rarely gives new information not found elsewhere in scripture. (On occasion though)

message 3: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle 7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Now - is often understood as "since". From what I hear.

Fun concern.

message 4: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Michiels | 46 comments That's how I understood it as well, that essentially you could cut the book of Revelation in half around chapter 12 and lay it side by side it would give you some sort of alternate view of what it had already stated, kind of how you get 4 different accounts of the same events with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, or how you have 1 & 2 Samuel and 1 & 2 Kings, but then you also have Chronicles.

But I understand that the fall of Satan was in the Garden of Eden when the "serpent" was cursed. I don't believe that it would have been before then, because after God created all things in 6 days and at the end of the 6th day, Genesis 1:31 tells us:

"God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."

So If Satan had fallen at that point, then everything that he had made would not have been "Very Good".

When you look at the account of the "serpent" that deceived Eve, the word "Nachash" that is translated as "serpent" apparently has other meanings according to Dr. Michael Heiser. This is taken from an article about him:

The word serpent is the Hebrew word, nachash, which can be translated as serpent or snake but has other meanings as well. According to Heiser, the Hebrew root is the basis for a noun, verb, and an adjective. Of course, as a NOUN, it is usually the word for serpent. The VERB form means deceiver or diviner with divine knowledge. The ADJECTIVE version means bronze or brazen with a BRIGHT SHINE. Therefore, used as an adjective it should be translated as “shining one.” Shining or luminosity is a quality that is characteristic of divine beings in the Hebrew Bible and other near east literature."

Of course, we also know satan as "Lucifer" or the "O Day Star, son of Dawn" from Isaiah 14:12, which also implies a "Bright" nature.

So, believing that to be accurate, then the fall of Satan was actually the fall or the curse of the "serpent" in Genesis.

But if that is the case and Satan was no longer allowed to abide in Heaven with the rest of the angelic beings, does that mean he can never return even as in a visit? In Job we see a scene of him coming before God with the rest of the heavenly host. So if this is indeed a true account and not another sort of parable, (Which I take it and understand it to be a true account. Always have) and Satan still has the ability to enter Heaven and just not "live" there, then it wouldn't be out of the question to think that he could enter heaven again at a future time and wage war there before being cast out again? Could it then be possible that the war in Heaven is future?

I'm not stating this as in it is what I believe, I am asking if this could be possible or if I am way off the mark here. I've only ever heard or understood it as a historical event, but this was just a thought I had and wondered if it could hold any merit or if it was just my overactive imagination.

Thanks for the response! All input is certainly welcome!

message 5: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Lots to think about.
I am curious if the angel rebellion was in creation week. I don't think so... that may be outside our realm and its original goodness.

message 6: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I've been researching that Job incident for years. I don't believe Satan goes to heaven. It more easily matches the offerings of Cain and Able before God. "Sons of God" may be the most confused term in the bible.

message 7: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Michiels | 46 comments I've recently been paying attention to the teachings of Doug Hamp. He's got some very good studies that have videos of his presentations on YouTube. I'm not sure if you are familiar with him at all, but he does have some very interesting and thought provoking views that I have to say I agree with after watching the presentations of his evidence. His video on the fall of satan is a particularly interesting one.

message 8: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Genesis 4
3 In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground,
4 and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering,

Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

message 9: by John (new)

John McCann | 308 comments Jennifer wrote: "What do you think of the war that breaks out in Heaven in Revelation 12:7? Do you think that is a historical account, or is it a future event?

I originally thought that it was a historical account..."

Future event.

The symbolism of Revelation begs caution in interpretation. Still general acts and characters can be intelligently identified.

The woman is Israel, the Man Child is Jesus and the dragon is Satan.

One third of the angels followed Satan from verse 12. I do not believe there is enough support in this single verse to imply that. Yet due to the volume of support, it is unquestioned. The sheep of Jesus have a character of following one another. The “stars of heaven” would be better interpreted as the children of Abraham being as numerous as the “stars of heaven”.

Verse 14 and the “wings of an eagle” is probably the USA’s support of Israel. Encouraging to think that the USA will not be one of the nations of all the world coming against Israel in the great battle.

Irwin Baxter is my preferred prophecy teacher. Love his magazine "End Times".

message 10: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I've never heard of Doug Hamp. I'll have a look

message 11: by Tyrone (new)

Tyrone Wilson | 47 comments Both. The first half are definitely historical, recounting the fall of Satan and his angels from heaven and the redemptive work of Christ.

I believe the latter verses are future. The reference in verse 14 (time, times and half a time) is related to the Great Tribulation period of 3 and a half years.

message 12: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Rev
14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

Thanks John. Seeing the USA in that is kind of fun. I can roll with that. Israel getting back into its homeland is essential prophecy.

message 13: by Tyrone (new)

Tyrone Wilson | 47 comments Rod wrote: "Rev
14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and hal..."

I would disagree the wings represent the USA. There's no reference to nations here. It's more likely to represent God's deliverance analogous to how God delivered Israel through the wilderness in the OT. Israel will be supported by Christians during this wilderness period.

message 14: by John (new)

John McCann | 308 comments The bald eagle appears on most official seals of the U.S. government, including the presidential seal, the presidential flag, and in the logos of many U.S. federal agencies.

The current president promotes "Make America Great Again" which agrees with a "great eagle" in the text.

U.N. Secretary Nikki Haley testifies that the USA will support Israel while all other countries spend time opposing Israel.

I cannot say the "great eagle" is definitely the USA, but the USA would fit the text.

message 15: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I'm happy with it fitting. I'm sure God has a sense of humor.

message 16: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle In many ways this is very similar to the ambiguous brilliance of Old Testament prophecies... that now seem obviously clear. (And Jews still can't see them).

message 17: by Tyrone (new)

Tyrone Wilson | 47 comments Rod wrote: "I'm happy with it fitting. I'm sure God has a sense of humor."

He would need one to believe that...

message 18: by John (new)

John McCann | 308 comments An additional fit for the USA is the Philadelphia Eagles winning the Super Bowl with so many Christians on the team. That's a fit. That a "great eagle".

message 19: by John (last edited May 11, 2018 12:16PM) (new)

John McCann | 308 comments Verse 4: "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: "

Interesting how the bulk of Christians interpret this to be the fallen angels. That would imply that Satan fights against himself. A literal translation would be the physical stars cast down to the earth as a sign of the last days. A type translation would be the children of Abraham in some type of persecution.

I have been molded to not trust the bulk of Christian interpretation when it does not apply. A study of church history reveals Christians can get it wrong; but the few cannot be heard over the strong holds of the masses. This is a pattern of the Lord. He has His inner circle (Peter, James and John); then He has His disciples indeed, then He has His masses. I still see that today. Am I saying that I'm the only one that has it right! No. I am saying that I feel very comfortable and confident with my doctrine.

message 20: by Jennifer (last edited May 11, 2018 01:38PM) (new)

Jennifer Michiels | 46 comments Rod wrote: "I've never heard of Doug Hamp. I'll have a look"

I've just recently stumbled upon him and so I am still "feeling out" his teachings, but from what I have seen, his evidence seems to hold up pretty solid. Very in depth and thorough.

I've been doing RIDICULOUS amounts of studying, reading, researching, video-watching, you know name it, trying to make sure I consider all the possibles for my novel. His teachings on the fall of satan and the events in Revelation poked a few holes in my previous belief, and so now I am taking a step back and re-examining it all. Not to say that I believe that he is correct just yet, but it's pretty solid.

message 21: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Michiels | 46 comments Sorry, this going to be pretty long!

I would have to say that over the last few months, not that my belief has changed, but more accurately my understanding has changed and evolved to be more inclusive of certain ideas that I hadn't really considered in the past. For instance, I used to be on the fence about the rapture and could see where both pre-trib and post-trib theories had merit, but now that I am in a little better understanding, I am most definitely in the "post-trib club". There are other areas or scriptural subject matters that I have been investigating, like the Genesis 6 narrative, and I have to say that I am following along with that as well.

I have crafted a sort of end-time theory about how the antichrist will deceive many, even the elect, and the mark of the beast, but it only holds its own if my newer understanding is correct. So, therefore, all the researching and questions I keep bombarding you guys with... sorry!

If after more thorough investigation I find that I still believe that my theory may have a leg to stand on, then that is the direction I will send the plot of my novel. It is certainly not a widely held opinion or idea, but the pre-trib view is so prevalent and I really feel the need or urgency not to tell the majority that they are wrong... because that may very well not be the case, but to show them that there are other possibilities and give the scriptural evidence I have found. I want to use a fiction novel to entertain, but at the same time, make them rethink the end times and that there are other possible ways this could play out so that maybe less will fall into the ploy of the antichrist when the time comes.

Here is my theory... but keep in mind, the possibility of it only rings true if the "fallen-angels" of Genesis 6 were as such a big deal as I have come to believe they are, and if the war in Heaven of Revelation is a future event.

If you are not familiar with the Genesis 6 theory, then the short version is that the sons of God (angels) came to Earth and took wives for themselves and begat giants (Nephilim) on the Earth in those days, and they also taught human-kind the secrets of certain subjects that we were not to know, according to the book of Enoch things such as sorcery, abortions genetics, and gene splicing etc. The creatures of mythology were actually true, but only as the result of these beings creating genetic mutations and corrupting the earth, hence the need for the flood to cleanse. Ancient Aliens does have some of their info correct I believe, in that there were ancient cities that were bigger and not necessarily more "advanced" but more intelligent than we could have ever imagined. They say that it was "ancient astronauts" or aliens that came to help us and then left, but according to Genesis 6 and the book of Enoch, it was not aliens, but the "sons of God" in early human history. They were imprisoned and the flood cleansed the earth, but some of their megalithic structures such as Tiwanaku and Puma Punku survived.

But the evidence for this is not just found in Enoch...

“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly” 2 Pet 2:4-6

“And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” Jude 1:6-7

So these angels that sinned are bound in chains and darkness.

That being said, if you read Daniel 2:43 with that possibility in mind;

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." Daniel 2:43 KJV

It seems plausible that this same type of event could happen again. If you look at the 5th seal of Revelation:

“Then the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen to earth from the sky, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. When he opened it, smoke poured out as though from a huge furnace, and the sunlight and air were darkened by the smoke. Then locusts came from the smoke and descended on the earth, and they were given power to sting like scorpions. They were told not to hurt the grass or plants or trees but to attack all the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were told not to kill them but to torture them for five months with agony like the pain of scorpion stings. In those days people will seek death but will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee away! The locusts looked like horses armed for battle. They had gold crowns on their heads, and they had human faces. Their hair was long like the hair of a woman, and their teeth were like the teeth of a lion. They wore armor made of iron, and their wings roared like an army of chariots rushing into battle. They had tails that stung like scorpions, with power to torture people. This power was given to them for five months. They have before them a king, the angel from the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon–the Destroyer.” Rev 9:1-11

Now, this is a newer thought to me, but I have heard that it may be possible that the locusts could be the fallen angels. They had the faces of men and long hair, they wore armor of iron. I'm not sure about scorpion tails, but I'm not aware of what angels look like either. I would assume they would be "human-like" in some ways at least, but I think it is an interesting theory that requires more investigation. If this is true, then the angels could be released, and they could "mix with the seed of man".

But moving on from that tidbit leads me to my main idea...

If it is indeed a post-trib rapture and we will be here for the antichrist and his deception, would you think this possible...

The war in Heaven is a future event... when Satan comes up from the Abyss, he takes his followers to heaven for the war. He is cast down to the Earth, and people physically see him fall. Those that are anticipating a Pre-trib rapture are looking to the skies for the return of Jesus... Even other religions are waiting for someone to arrive... Islam is waiting for the arrival of the Imam Madhi, Jews are awaiting the arrival of the Messiah, Just not Jesus, Buddhists are waiting for the next reincarnation of the Dahli-Llama etc. So those anticipating Jesus' return first, could be easily deceived into thinking this is the second coming... they won't be here for the antichrist right, and Jesus is coming on the clouds... It could explain how that AC gets even the elect to worship him in the temple. The word "antichrist" combines two roots: αντί (anti) + Χριστός (Khristos). "Αντί" can mean not only "against" and "opposite of", but also "in place of".

It would be the greatest deception in the history of the world, to have the majority believe the first thing they see coming on the clouds to be Jesus, but it will be the AC being cast from heaven.

This would give a little more meaning to what Jesus says. He tells us in Matthew:

"23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah!’ or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Jesus tells us that something has to happen before his return.

29“Immediately after the suffering of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. 30 THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory." Matthew 24:29-30

So the sun has to be darkened before Jesus returns and every eye will see him coming... I take this to mean that every eye can go outside and look up at the sky and see his glory, his brightness since the sun will be darkened...

If my theory on Satan falling is correct, then he could literally fall, say in the Middle East, it would be captured on video and it could be proclaimed to the world that the Messiah has returned to us. But, if they say he is in the desert, do not be fooled. If the sun was not darkened and it was not seen physically worldwide, then it isn't him.

The pre-trib rapture view could potentially be the thing that deceives the world into thinking that the AC is Jesus. The greatest deception of all time.

Does any of that make any sense? I know I rambled on, but I want you all to poke as many holes in that theory as possible. I want to know where the error lies in that. It is not my goal to deceive or lead anyone astray, so if this is wayyyy off course and not in any way possible, then I want to know.

Thanks in advance!

message 22: by John (new)

John McCann | 308 comments I interprete "to lead astray, if possible, even the elect" that it is impossible to lead astray the elect. Jesus said My sheep follow Me and a stranger that will not follow. That the only hole I see.

message 23: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Michiels | 46 comments John wrote: "I interprete "to lead astray, if possible, even the elect" that it is impossible to lead astray the elect. Jesus said My sheep follow Me and a stranger that will not follow. That the only hole I see."

I have to say that I have never looked at it that way! I've always understood that the delusion of the antichrist would be so strong that it would deceive even then elect. Very interesting!

I was originally under the impression that the "falling away" of 2 Thessalonians was a falling away of believers. That christians would believe the lie and fall away from the Lord... but now that I have gone back and read that chapter again... I see that It doesn't say that. I'm not sure how I came to that conclusion either!

"2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

After re-examining, it sounds as though the "falling away" would be referring to a covering or a veil that is concealing the antichrist. It falls away and he is revealed.

Would you agree with that?

message 24: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle The elect are confused and lead astray by the minute... but not totally-- they cannot lose their salvation. But they can believe some pretty dumb things for a time, how many mistakes did Abraham, Moses, Peter, David... act upon?

message 25: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Right now (and later) the Church is falling away. Going insanely liberal, charismatic, new age, unbiblical. No mystery there.

I'm not convinced Genesis 6 is referring to sexual angels. But to people who lived the early Long Ages. That is the point of the entire paragraph:

Genesis 6
3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years."

God didn't immediately reduce everyone's age limits... but over time, slowly. That is why:

Genesis 6
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

Afterwards? Yes, Noah's family.
Genesis 9
29 All the days of Noah were 950 years, and he died. (He is Nephilim.) his descendants had less and less old age.

message 26: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Jude 1
6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day--

My understanding of this is rather boring compared to Nephilim vampire orgy lore.
The angels position of authority was Heaven and Worship. That was their dwelling. The gloomy darkness is their earthly existence and limitations.the eternal chains are their assured fait and judgement.

Most people prefer something more exciting. I just want systematic truth.

message 27: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle For excitement: I'm more interested in the theology and plan of the millennium. Now that's gonna be weird.

message 28: by John (new)

John McCann | 308 comments Jennifer wrote: "I've recently been paying attention to the teachings of Doug Hamp."
I recommend the book "Forbidden Gates" by Tom and Nita Horn. I would consider writing a triller with about 5-7 main characters. One or two working for government or gov contractor to discover some of the human enhancements mentioned in the book "Forbidden Gates." The book has some interesting interpretations of the "days of Noah, giving in marriage" as intermixing human and artificial intelligence, nanotech, etc. to have soldiers that don't need sleep, or with high vision like an eagle, or enhanced smell like a dog. We see some of this already. The theme of the book is that countries are competing secretly to get the best army possible. Meanwhile, this is in violation of God' "kind after kind" genealogy and just like the sons of God intermixed with the fair daughters of men, Judgment must come.

message 29: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Michiels | 46 comments John, that is an awesome and interesting plot line! I will certainly be checking out that book! Thanks for the recommend!

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