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Judas Iscariot and Others
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Group Read Archive 2014 > Judas Iscariot And Others - chapters 4 - 6

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Amalie  | 650 comments Mod
Chapter IV
Chapter V
Chapter VI

message 2: by Amalie (last edited Jul 30, 2014 01:52AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Amalie  | 650 comments Mod
I'm guessing everyone has finished this part by now. Can anyone explain what made Judas confused here:

"Thomas! But what if He is right? What if He be founded upon a rock, and we upon sand? What then?"

"Of whom are you speaking?"

"How, then, would it be with Judas Iscariot? Then I should be obliged to strangle Him in order to do right. Who is deceiving Judas? You or he himself? Who is deceiving Judas? Who?"

If this is his moment of realization of what he is about to do, then why did he earlier went to Annas?

Is JI a Narcissist? He thinks himself more handsome, better, and stronger than the other Apostles and more deserving of Jesus’ love. He wants to prove to Jesus his superiority, but instead Judas gets rejected by him. Was it the frustration led him to Annas...

Is Judas planning to stage a scene of danger to Jesus and how he will come to rescue Jesus... while others would not so Jesus have to live him? Was he trying to create another "stoning" event where he can save Jesus? That time Jesus didn't respond to him, so he is creating the ultimate threat to Jesus' life where he can be there hero?

Does the idea of betrayal appears to Judas as a way to achieve his aims. In doing so, Judas can demonstrate that only he is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. Does my take on this make any sense?

dely | 340 comments This part confused also me. I really didn't understand why Judas felt always deceived. Paranoia?

If this is his moment of realization of what he is about to do, then why did he earlier went to Annas?

I think he wasn't sure of what he was doing till the end (and also after Jesus' death he perhaps suicides because of regret) so it is possible that he alternated moments in which he wanted to betray and moments when he thought Jesus was really the son of God. Once he loved him and then he was jalous and wanted to be the best. He betrays Him and then he wants to bring back the money. Everything is very contradictory.
Till the end Judas wanted the soldiers to see who Jesus really was so they could spare him. Or perhaps Judas doesn't believe in redemption and wanted Jesus to behave like a real Son of God, that means he had to defend himself making something supernatural so everyone had the proof He was really divine. Or Jesus had to defended himself doing something divine (so He was the son of God) or He had to defend doing something human: crying or wriggling. Jesus did neither the one or the other and perhaps this irritated Judas because he couldn't have a proof of Jesus' superiority.
I didn't understand why he had these thoughts: he betrays and then he wants the others to see the Truth? Perhaps he too needed a proof who Jesus really was? Judas had always so many doubts. Perhaps Andreyev used this character because he too was confused and didn't know anymore what was right and what wrong.

He often also says that he will be next to Jesus in Paradise but this can't happen if he betrays him (this also can't happen with suicide). Judas, in this book, behaved in a strange way so I'm pretty sure that Andreyev used this character to communicate something to the reader: perhaps his personal doubts. And it is also because of this that he doesn't give answers (perhaps he hasn't any) and leaves the reader to think about it and to find the answers he prefers.

Amalie  | 650 comments Mod
Your idea helps a lot. And I've been thinking about this just a while ago and it occurred to me perhaps, Andreyev is referring to "The Puppet of God Theory" (I'm not sure if that's the correct name?) When Judas says:

"Who is deceiving Judas? You or he himself?" "He" may be a reference to God/Jesus himself. Judas was predestined like Jesus himself (according to this theory) He had no choice in the matter. He might had free will but he too became God's "puppet". Now that he realized he got himself trapped, everything changes. The weeping is the realization, but he still have a crazy hope, as you have said, of Jesus showing his superiority with something supernatural and escape proving who he is to everyone including to Judas himself, he doubted, but I think in the story (as well as in the Bible) Thomas doubted more. When it didn't happen, he feels horrible and blames others for not loving Jesus enough to save him.

I actually don't believe the Puppet of God Theory and I also don't like the theory which say JI was the manifestation of the Devil like Jesus was the human manifestation of the Father. But in this story, like we discussed in the earlier thread, there are a lot of suggestions to Judas' parentage.

I always felt Judas name is ironic Judas/Judah meaning "to praise" is now forever associated with betrayal and shame.

Personally I like a more humanistic approach. Judas , like most people, might have been a very complex individual and his act might have been motivated by a combination of factors. I like this story because Andreyev seems to do that as well.

dely | 340 comments If the "puppet theory" would be right then Judas was a victim and I understand his anger. Or, on the contrary, he should be glad to be the one who could help Jesus to redeem mankind. I think we could talk about this for a lifetime and we will never find an answer!

Amalie  | 650 comments Mod
dely wrote: "If the "puppet theory" would be right then Judas was a victim and I understand his anger. Or, on the contrary, he should be glad to be the one who could help Jesus to redeem mankind. I think we cou..."

Yes. :)

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