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Discipleship > Old Earth vs. Young Earth

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message 1: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
My conviction is that there is only ONE reason Christians choose to believe in an OLD EARTH ... and that is EVOLUTION .

I am interested in what BIBLICAL reasons believers have to believe in an OLD EARTH .

Please list the Scriptures that lead you to believe the earth is OLD .
______________

Many FREE resources on our ministry web site: www.Christ-like.net


message 2: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Define Old.


message 3: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Some think there isn't necessarily an implied timeline between verses 1,,2 or even 3.

Some think the ordering of creation starts on verse 2

Genesis 1:
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

But that just means the materials are old.


message 4: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Famous Oxford mathematician and Christian apologist "John Lennox" believes in an old earth. But Not macro-evolution. For the reasons above.


message 5: by Alexandra (last edited Mar 30, 2018 12:05PM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "My conviction is that there is only
ONE reason Christians choose to believe in an OLD EARTH ... and that is EVOLUTION"


That's interesting, as they are two entirely different and separate topics.

"I am interested in what BIBLICAL reasons believers have to believe in an OLD EARTH ."

Given our past conversations, I seriously suspect that is not the case.

"Please list the Scriptures that lead you to believe the earth is OLD ."

If you are truly and sincerely interested in the reasons some Christians believe Scriptures is consistent with the old earth theory you'd do your own research on the topic and learn why and what they have to say.

The fact that you haven't bothered speaks volumes regarding how sincerely curious you are.

But if it makes you feel better, go ahead and blindly believe that only those who affirm the theory of macro-evolution find Biblical cause to affirm the old earth theory as well, even though that's not the case.


message 6: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Define Old."

almost 14 billion years


message 7: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Some think there isn't necessarily an implied timeline between verses 1,,2 or even 3. Some think the ordering of creation starts on verse 2 Genesis 1: 2 The earth was without form and void, and ..."

Genesis 1:1-3 is one lengthy Hebrew sentence. Kind of hard to put a gap in the middle of one sentence.


message 8: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
So far no one has provided a single Bible verse that leads them to believe in an old earth.

Scripture please. I am well aware of the alleged science.


message 9: by Steve (new)

Steve Hofstede | 113 comments That’s cute...


message 10: by Alexandra (last edited Mar 30, 2018 02:04PM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "So far no one has provided a single Bible verse that leads them to believe in an old earth."

Given the fact that you've already outed yourself as disingenuous and not truly interested it's not really a big surprise.

IF your question were sincere you'd already know that many Christians who reject Evolution accept old earth theory, and you'd also have done your own study to find if there are valid reasons to consider the theory consistent with Scripture.

As it is you started out already antagonistic, and obviously not sincerely curious.

I'd be surprised if anyone felt it was worth the effort to bother.

Go ahead and think whatever you please.


message 11: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle You are my Hero Alexandra. Well said.

I'm a young Earther... but I appreciate anyone who doesn't make blind assumptions about scripture (and I adore John Lennox)


message 12: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I would say that the real issue isn't an Old Earth... but the age of life itself.


message 13: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Rod wrote: "You are my Hero Alexandra. Well said.

I'm a young Earther... but I appreciate anyone who doesn't make blind assumptions about scripture (and I adore John Lennox)"


Robert displays his position as both ignorant and already a closed and decided issue for him in several ways. His "question" is not one that invites conversation.

He's already declared that his "conviction" (contrary to facts and reality), is that Christians only "choose" to accept old earth theory when/if they embrace the theory of evolution. You and I both know that is false.

There is no Biblical reason believers "have to" believe in old or young earth. I don't know anyone who accepts this view who claims believers "have to" believe in old earth theory, although sadly some young earthers are quite dogmatic.

And of course he just wants verses ripped out of context, without any valid study, exegesis, or explanation of underlying Hebrew. That's not a valid form of Biblical study.

His "question" is quite obviously not from an honest and sincere desire to understand how the position could be consistent with scripture, nor does it demonstrate a willingness to listen.

If Robert wants to stand in judgement of his fellow believers out of his obvious ignorance of the topic he's free to do so.


message 14: by Steve (new)

Steve Hofstede | 113 comments And Robert is a drone who worships his bible and not the Jesus the bible reveals...


message 15: by Steve (new)

Steve Hofstede | 113 comments Any one who requires every answer to every question to be 100% scripture has no relationship with the Christ those pages reveal.


message 16: by Robert (last edited Apr 04, 2018 08:00AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "Robert displays his position as both ignorant and already a closed and decided issue for him in several ways. His "question" is not one that invites conversation ..."

My question was intended to see if there is ANY Bible passage that leads people to old earth opinions.


message 17: by Steve (new)

Steve Hofstede | 113 comments Can you prove from the bible that the earth is young? No you can’t. It’s an assumption you enter the scriptures with. You are so small minded that you cannot really read your bible. I feel sorry for you.


message 18: by Robert (last edited Apr 04, 2018 08:00AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Steve wrote: "Any one who requires every answer to every question to be 100% scripture has no relationship with the Christ those pages reveal."

Jesus said... Matthew 4:4 - "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God ."


message 19: by Steve (new)

Steve Hofstede | 113 comments Smh. I’m done...


message 20: by Alexandra (last edited Mar 30, 2018 02:57PM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "My response: So you are a mind reader..."

Nope, just very smart and with good reading comprehension. ;)

"...one who does NOT have any Scripture to offer! "

Why should I bother?


message 21: by Alexandra (last edited Mar 30, 2018 03:05PM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "My question was intended to see if there is ANY Bible passage that leads people to old earth opinions."

I think I've already pointed out that claim isn't credible.

"So far, my conclusion is RIGHT... there are NONE (neither you nor Rod have offered any)... "

Since you'd already come to your conclusion it's a mystery why you think anyone would bother.

I sure wouldn't, because:

1. You've already made up your mind.
2. You are not actually curious.
3. Ripping verses out of context isn't valid Biblical study.
4. You've already demonstrated to me that attempting to assist you in any way is a complete waste of time.
5. It's not an issue I think is worth debating among Christians. Discussion, sure, curiosity to understand another point of view, sure. Debate, no.

"In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity." ~ origins of quote disputed.


message 22: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "Thanks for JUDGMENTAL OPINION "

Everyone who sees the irony raise your hand. ;)


message 23: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "My response: YES INDEED... just do the math! "

Um, Robert, that's not a Bible verse. Hold yourself to your own standard.


message 24: by Steve (new)

Steve Hofstede | 113 comments Robert is a pagan whose god happens to be the bible... not the true God revealed in Jesus...


message 25: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Steve wrote: "Robert is a pagan whose god happens to be the bible... not the true God revealed in Jesus..."

I'm familiar with the fact that many Christians use the term "pagan" to mean unbeliever, but also with the fact that Paganism is a specific category of religious belief.

So, I'm not sure which meaning you're intending, but I can agree Robert's beliefs have some serious issues, as does his attitude. ;)


message 26: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "Since you'd already come to your conclusion it's a mystery why you think anyone would bother...."

No mystery. I am trying to see if there is ANY reason (besides evolution) for Christians to follow an OE opinion.


message 27: by Steve (new)

Steve Hofstede | 113 comments The fact that you think you can read the bible literally says everything we need to know about your contribution to this discussion Robert...


message 28: by Alexandra (last edited Mar 30, 2018 03:18PM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "You should NOT bother... "

On that we are in agreement.

"there are NONE! "

You declare ignorantly, obviously without first actually studying the issue.

"I am trying to see if there is ANY reason (besides evolution) for Christians to follow an OE opinion."

As I've already pointed out, that claim isn't credible. And I've explained why. Although I'm sure that's obvious to everyone reading except you. ;)

"NOT offering any Bible verses is NOT valid Bible study! ROFL!!!!"

Is that what I actually said? No, it isn't. Your disingenuous is showing. Here's a clue - those with honest intent do not misrepresent what others say.


message 29: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "Exodus 20:11 and 31:17 "

Too lazy to quote them, Robert? The rest isn't Scripture, so in keeping with holding you to your own standard I've disregarded it.


message 30: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "LOL!!!!!! Believing the Bible is defined by you to be "having serious issues! "

Again misrepresenting what I said. Tisk, tisk. That isn't what I said Robert.

It's clear you have no interest in a honest discussion of the topic. It's also clear to me you're not willing to be actually honest.


message 31: by Alexandra (last edited Mar 30, 2018 04:04PM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "A pseudo-intellectual answer from someone who QUOTES NO BIBLE VERSES! "

We've already both agreed I shouldn't bother.

"LOL!!!!! NOPE! I intentionally did not quote them..."

Right, a double standard. I am not surprised.

"I KNEW you would be too lazy to look them up..."

I wasn't the one who asked you the question. I am already well familiar with the young earth position, and the reasons for it. What was interesting to see is if you'd hold yourself to your own standard.

"....just like you are too lazy to QUOTE ANY verses yourself!"

Ah, more misrepresentation. That is highly unimpressive Robert. I asked you to tell me why you felt I should bother, and you agreed with me that I should not bother.

I've presented no argument for any position, which means there is nothing I have to support.

"NOPE! What I am unwilling to do is "discuss" Bible doctrine WITHOUT ANY Bible quotes."

And yet interestingly that claim is another that is contradicted by the actual evidence. It isn't what your OP, and subsequent posts, demonstrate. What they do demonstrate is that you have no honest or sincere desire to discuss the issue at all.

As this is the way you treat other believers I shudder to think how you speak to non-believers. I've had Muslim men from the Middle East speak to me better and with more respect, and they thought of me as about equal to cattle.


message 32: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Just out of curiosity Robert, do you believe Moses, inspired by the Holy Spirit, wrote the book of Exodus in English?


message 33: by Robert (last edited Apr 04, 2018 08:02AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "Right, a double standard. I am not surprised.,..."

NO double standard... I have QUOTED MANY verses... you have quoted NONE


message 34: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Yo haven't Been quoting much scripture here Robert???

I'm still waiting for you to fully deal with verses I DID MENTION.

1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

(Annoyingly enough, I agree with you. But watching you pout and get flustered is an expected part of my week)


message 35: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Sometimes we CAN use science to prove scriptures. Since there is a great deal of things the bible didn't bother to mention: dental care, combustion engine, radio waves, printing press...


message 36: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Exodus
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

I'm convinced. But I'd love to hear others conclusions


message 37: by Alexandra (last edited Mar 30, 2018 06:49PM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "NO double standard... I have QUOTED MANY verses..."

Not here in response to Steve's question. So yes, double standard. You insist of others what you yourself are unwilling or unable to do.

"you have quoted NONE (of course that is because you HAVE NONE!"

No, but again you misrepresent me, demonstrating you have no interest in engaging here in an honest manner.

I have quoted none, because:

1. I see no reason to bother, to which you yourself agreed.
2. I've asserted no position, which means I have nothing I need to support with Biblical passages.

Here's a verse for you: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Exodus 20:16

Since you understand Exodus was written in Hebrew it seems to me you might find the Hebrew meanings of interest (if of course you were sincerely curious, which isn't credible), unless it's your assertion that all English translations, or your particular favorite English translation, is inerrant in the translation. And even then you'd need to deny that English words often have more than one meaning.

That's a hint - you're welcome. It's much more than you deserve.

"Here is from my OP..."

And yet interestingly that claim is contradicted by the actual evidence. I'm quite aware of what you claimed in the OP. Claiming you're interested, and actually being interested are not the same thing.


message 38: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Yo haven't Been quoting much scripture here Robert???..."

My response: I ASKED for Scripture. I KNOW what I believe. I was honestly ASKING old earthers to tell me the verses that led them to believe in old earth fables.

I fully suspect old earth Christians are a NEW thing since the acceptance of evolution.


message 39: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "(Annoyingly enough, I agree with you. But watching you pout and get flustered is an expected part of my week) ..."

LOL!!!!! You are delusional if you think I am "pouting" and "flustered! ROFL


message 40: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Exodus
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

I'm convinc..."


If the Holy Spirit through Moses stated that God created everything in SIX DAYS... why are you open to other conclusions????

Is it possible that the Holy Ghost got it wrong?


message 41: by Alexandra (last edited Mar 30, 2018 07:34PM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "I was honestly ASKING old earthers to tell me the verses that led them to believe in old earth fables."

Declaring old earth theory "fables" isn't the way to ask an honest question.

"I fully suspect old earth Christians are a NEW thing since the acceptance of evolution. "

And yet we've already informed you that many of those who accept old earth theory reject the theory of evolution, and that those are two different and separate topics.

"If the Holy Spirit through Moses stated that God created everything in SIX DAYS... why are you open to other conclusions????"

People who accept old earth theory would agree that God created everything in six days.

I do find it significant that you take Rod's interest in hearing other conclusions as a bad thing, which demonstrates you're not honestly asking to understand, but simply spoiling for an argument.

But, believe young earth, it's not at all a problem. What is a problem is your arrogant condemnation of other sincere Christians while speaking from complete and utter ignorance of the topic.


message 42: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "Declaring old earth theory "fables" isn't the way to ask an honest question...."

Declaring TRUTH is always right.


message 43: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "And yet we've already informed you that many of those who accept old earth theory reject the theory of evolution, and that those are two different and separate topics.
..."


But what you haven't informed me of are the SCRIPTURES that validate old earth and which ones led you to that old earth opinion.

If you HAVE NO BIBLE passages... you must have gotten it from somewhere else... EVOLUTION.


message 44: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "People who accept old earth theory would agree that God created everything in six days...."

This is a FALSE statement. It may be true for you... it may not.

Many old earthers believe SIX DAYS = 12 BILLION YEARS.


message 45: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "But, believe young earth, it's not at all a problem. What is a problem is your arrogant condemnation of other sincere Christians while speaking from complete and utter ignorance of the topic. ..."

My response: LOL!!!!! And you call me arrogant!!!! ROFL!!!!


message 46: by Alexandra (last edited Mar 30, 2018 07:49PM) (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "Declaring TRUTH is always right."

And yet the fact remains, declaring old earth theory "fables" isn't the way to ask an honest question.

"But what you haven't informed me of are the SCRIPTURES that validate old earth and which ones led you to that old earth opinion"

I've made no assertion regarding the age of the earth, and have not stated I have such an opinion regarding it's age. And so, since I have made no argument nor taken any position there is nothing for me to provide Scripture to support. Understanding a position is not the same as asserting it, or embracing it.

Furthermore, I've explained that I feel such an endeavor with you would be a waste of time, and one I don't see why anyone would desire to bother with.

"This is a FALSE statement."

It's actually not at all a false statement. And I even kindly provided you with a hint. You simply believe it's false due to your own ignorance. And yet you continue to demonstrate your complete lack of interest and sincerity in understanding the position.

"And you call me arrogant!!!!"

Yup, I do.


message 47: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "And yet the fact remains, declaring old earth theory "fables" isn't the way to ask an honest question...."

Declaring TRUTH is always right.


message 48: by Robert (last edited Mar 30, 2018 07:51PM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Alexandra wrote: "It's actually not at all a false statement. ..."

This is a FALSE statement. It may be true for you... it may not.

Many old earthers believe SIX DAYS = 12 BILLION YEARS.


message 49: by Alexandra (new)

Alexandra | 423 comments Robert wrote: "Declaring TRUTH is always right."

And yet the fact remains, declaring old earth theory "fables" isn't the way to ask an honest question.

"This is a FALSE statement."

It's actually not at all a false statement. And I even kindly provided you with a hint. You simply believe it's false due to your own ignorance. And yet you continue to demonstrate your complete lack of interest and sincerity in understanding the position.


message 50: by Robert (last edited Apr 04, 2018 06:18PM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1964 comments Mod
Back to the original question...

Can someone provide any Scripture that leads you to believe in an old earth opinion?

I am completely convinced that old earth beliefs are the result of the vast acceptance of evolution and NOT anything contained in the Bible.

If there were such Scriptures... some believers would have believed in an old earth during the first 1,800 years of Christianity.

GOT SCRIPTURE?

I am requesting BIBLE PASSAGES... NOT OPINIONS.


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