Fugitive Prince [May 15, 2018]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Boom

[Sandra]

Do we have to wait?

[Olivia]

You don’t have to. But most of us won’t start until around the 15th so it might be a bit lonely.

[Daniel]

I started then decided to read a couple other books until the fifteenth..lol

[Laura]

It would be great if you guys could also wait till the 15th. :)

[Choko]

I will wait to the start date:) I am being very good and disciplined like that:):):)

[Sha]

Is this book 1 or book 4? Can I start reading here?

[Daniel]

This is book four. The The Curse of the Mistwraith is the first book. I think you would have some trouble if you started here.

[Sha]

:( So many starter books I missed out on those last few months.

Ah well.

[Olivia]

Sha wrote: ":( So many starter books I missed out on those last few months.

Ah well."

I think some people want to start the series soon, watch out for it :)

[Daniel]

Great series so far. Very detailed worth the effort.

[Sandra]

A lot of people start with this book, thinking it’s first because it’s book 1 of arc 2. I can’t imagine starting here but I love the first scene! Elaira is a champ!

[Olivia]

I’m trying to finish the Black Company first.

[Laura]

I'm also trying to finish 2 open reads before starting with this. So I'll be 1 or 2 days late.

[Daniel]

I will wait until Thursday to post anything.

[Laura]

From Janny:
Side comment, here is some fun for your discussion that you haven't yet broached: cover art.

There is symbolism behind every single element in every single cover art, chapter head, end piece - even in the USA covers that were portrait style and the older style 'landscape' covers done in the UK - every element has a hidden or NOT so hidden meaning.

And the icon artwork too.

All of the details matter not just those set into the words; there is a lot in the images, too.

Now Daniel and I would like to suggest a GAME TIME! - to see if we can identify those symbols and images

Here's what I found on Paravia under cover art:

EDIT : Some extra clues from Janny:

Here are some clues: symbols can be embedded in details of clothing, dress, stonework - and the numbers upon which the geometrics are based are significant. Colors count, numbers of objects may count, the various animals included in landscapes or icons count, whether the ribbons are tangled/are other things knotted up? What are the characters in portrait shots DOING, how are they dressed, and where are they facing/are they looking directly or indirectly at the viewer? What might this mean? Also look closely at the vegetation/weather/ and also, there are significant geometrics designed into the placement and the arranged composition - and on and on it goes....plenty of fodder for speculation! as some of the stuff has ramifications that may be historical or as a harbinger.


Curse of the Mistwraith












Ships of Merior










Warhost of Vastmark











This should help us identify the symbols I believe.
And man! If I may say so, some of those covers are absolutely gorgeous!!!!

Note: All the above cover art was done by Janny Wurts and Don Maitz
- Thank you Janny for providing it for our BR. :)

[Laura]

Olivia's suggestion:
Hmmm so the sword changes direction and now there’s a raven on it. Is it symbolising the interference of the Koriani or the support of the fellowship?
Also the instrument for book two when he was an apprentice. The sword also now has the red bands that were around the instrument in the second book.

and Daniel's:
Zero answers but a couple of observations: First cover has a sword with a rose but no blood red ribbon, next two have the ribbon. Are the two gargoyles facing each other significant? Does the gilded circle perhaps represent a gate? The switching between the lyranthe and the sword? But those two books were originally one novel? The background behind two of the “gates” appears desolate-is that representative of two of the dead worlds? Is that tied into the precepts of no weapons of mass destruction?
Sorry lots of questions no answers!

[Laura]

Covers for Fugitive Prince

[Daniel]

Thank you Laura!

[Laura]

Janny just told the Hungarian and Check covers are not done by her so I have removed them from the post. I've left only the UK and US versions.

[Daniel]

Well that clears up some of my confusion. Indeed those definitely did not have any of the same themes.

[Laura]

Sandra wrote: "A lot of people start with this book, thinking it’s first because it’s book 1 of arc 2. I can’t imagine starting here but I love the first scene! Elaira is a champ!"

I think it may be also because on the cover we have in big bold letters: ALLIANCE OF LIGHT BOOK ONE - without any reference whatsoever to The Wars of Light and Shadows. That is only specified inside, on the second page and it could be confusing for people who haven't read any of the previous books.

[Daniel]

I can unequivocally state this would not be a great place to start. This is book one of arc three and any reader would be somewhat to very confused.

[Laura]

Daniel wrote: "I can unequivocally state this would not be a great place to start. This is book one of arc three and any reader would be somewhat to very confused."

I completely agree. I was just saying what I read on the cover as I just picked up the book to check for the pics.

[Daniel]

Yes I saw that as well and was praying that this arc, which is five books long, wouldn’t be all about Lysaer, lol

[Laura]

Daniel wrote: "Yes I saw that as well and was praying that this arc, which is five books long, wouldn’t be all about Lysaer, lol"

Fingers crossed!!


btw - when is everyone starting this and should we go again with 2 chapters a day?

[Daniel]

I started today and read a bit more than two chapter sets. Will slow down as required. LOL

[Laura]

I was just studying those pics for symbolism. No take on that Daniel?

[Daniel]

Actually the one take I keep coming back to is the utter desolation in some of the backgrounds, especially if the gilded circles represent gates to other worlds. Since humans are not indigenous to this world, is the desolation representative of the destruction of other worlds? Also, since we know the wraiths are evil spirit beasties from other planets, can we surmise that perhaps the wraiths are the collective evil from old destroyed planets-or better said the collective evil of weapons of mass destruction that destroyed other planets?

[Daniel]

The cover from the Fugitive Prince is foreshadowing of events that will become clear in the second chapter set. I think...

[Laura]

Here are a few of my thoughts - as starters I'll give it a shot though I have to warn you guys - I positively suck at symbolism.

Curse of the Mistwraith

First I thought the gargoyles represent the princes but in the US edition they are back to back + gargoyles are already there so - NO. Perhaps they are witnesses? Or the 2 sides?

The Sword - is exactly positioned in between the 2 princes if you see both covers. (as if cutting between them) - So it may mean the conflict, the battle begun.

The Rose = Lysaer - he's the one starting the conflict, wielding the sword.

The background is the mountain where the Mistwraith is imprisoned right? Sword on top of it = conflict caused by the Mistwraith.

The princes are back to back = going opposite sides

The way Arithon is clutching the lyranthe - as if his life would depend on it = his choice: apprentice for the masterbard, not warrior king. That's what he wants most.
His body posture reminds me of that of a spooked buck, poised to run from the hunters and his facial expression confirm it - a hunted man getting ready to run for his life but also determined to defend what's his.
(That facial expression and posture are an art onto themselves. Hat's off to Janny for painting that! It's truly astounding!)

Lysaer - straight-backed with the hand on his sword - all confidence and royalty and determined to stand his ground. He won't run away.
But he's with his back to us = turning away from humanity and embracing the curse?
While Arithon is getting ready to run towards us = running away from the curse?

Now feedback guys! Did I do it right?
After we all take a shot perhaps we can ask Janny to let us know what we missed or got wrong.

[Laura]

Daniel wrote: "The cover from the Fugitive Prince is foreshadowing of events that will become clear in the second chapter set. I think..."

I didn't even start that one but I'm thinking to start today if you are there to chat with me.

What about the first 3 covers?

[Olivia]

Ok, let me see.

On Mistwraith, I figured the two gargoyles were standing for the princes as well with the swords between them as the start of the conflict. Lysaer has the advantage, Arithon is in retreat, which is why the sword is pointed to the gargoyle I assumed represented Lysaer or his side.

Then Airthon is all "screw it" and becomes a musician's apprentice and hides, so the sword is replaced by the instrument.

Then he has to pick up the sword and fight, which is why the decoration from the instrument moves over to the sword and the sword is now pointing in his direction because he's got the advantage. And by sword pointing, I mean the handle. The handle is leaning towards the one who's got an advantage and the pointy end towards the one in retreat.

Arithon always looks very troubled and brooding and I want to hug him and tell him it's okay.

Also in that first Mistwraith image, Lysaer is standing, ready to fight, ready to be king, ready to do what is asked of him, standing for justic, regal man, whilst Arithon is crouching and clinging to his instrument because he doesn't want to be king and take on the role he's supposed to take on.

Something like this?

[Laura]

Like that Olivia. :)

So you also thought - gargoyles = princes like me. But in the first cover they are there next to the princes. That got me confused so I thought about the sides.

Sword pointing - In Curse Lysaer has it = the rose.

Then in Ships it is replaced by the Lyranthe that Arithon holds = the stalemate caused by Arithon pursuing the path of the masterbard. It is straight on the background of a ship = Arithon's escape plan causes the stalemate?

In Warhost the sword points the other way around = Arithon fights back. It has the ribbons from the lyranthe but I don't get what they may mean. And on it is perched the raven. I thought the Raven may be Arithon, just as I attributed the Rose to Lysaer. But the background is Althain Tower - (at least that's what I think) so in that case the raven may mean the support of Sethvir? But I still think more of Arithon when I see it. So in the end I'll remain at this: Sword pointed the opposite way with a raven perched on it = Arithon fights back, background = with the support of the mages.

In the two pictures of Warhost Arithon is replaced by the raven so I'd take that as a clear sign: Arithon = raven. And I am sure the ribbons are important because they are there in all the images. Can they mean Arithon's path? They are simply falling down when tied to the lyranthe but seem to fly in the wind when tied to the bow and the sword = the path seems clear to Arithon the masterbard but is troubled and unclear for Arithon the warrior and ruler?

And I totally want to give Arithon a big hug too!!!!

[Olivia]

Ah yes, the Rose for Lysaer, I didn't spot that.

Also, with the raven I wondered if it could be the support from the fellowship, or the interference of the Koriani enchantresses?

But I get why you think the raven is a symbol for Arithon. The ribbons as his path sounds very interesting. Calm and relaxed around the instrument, in disarray when he's holding a sword.

[Daniel]

I very much agree with what both of you have come up with so far. If the rose symbolizes Lysaer then the raven has to symbolize Arithon. Plus ravens in general have always been a symbol of darkness which again equals Arithon.

[Olivia]

Ok, so Janny Wurts says no to the rose being Lysaer.

I’m starting to think this series will be re-read the moment I’m done.

Also got Fugitive Prince ready and will start either tonight or tomorrow morning and will aim for 2 chapter sets a day.

Also I need to look at these on my big screen apparently there’s stuff hidden in the geometry!! I need to buy the hardbacks.

[Sandra]

When I see the raven I always think of Traithe who was wounded and crippled by the Mistwraith. So I see him (or her) as standing for the fellowship but also of the force of nature which is a big theme in these books. I mean, asking permission of the rocks? Dakar describing the way a deer would ask Asandir to eat him for dinner, etc. anyone who crosses nature gets it in the end in the series. The Paravians dance and celebrate and nurture nature, the Koriani force it into submission.

I don’t think the Rose atands for Lysaer but something about Dakar’s Black Rose prophecy, although I’m confused by the color.

But you guys are doing a great job of exploring all the subtlety!

[Laura]

I love your idea about the raven Sandra. I think we have to look that way.

But the rose is a mistery. The black rose is supposed to be black right? So it may not be that. But it could be connected.

Give me a few minutes guys and I'll search for that UK cover Janny mentioned to add it to our photos. If you find it in between please do post it. :)

[Laura]

I've added the extra picture Janny was telling that we need to better decipher the symbolism. Hope it's the correct one - I have asked her to cgive the ok just in case.

Sorry for the delay in posting it but we're leaving in a few hours time on a off-road mountain trail trip for the weekend so I'm packing! :D

I'll be taking Fugitive Prince with me though and start reading tomorrow also. And will be back with a few more clues about our symbols. :)

[Sandra]

The ribbons for the ones on the arrows Arithon shot for signals to begin shooting, etc. at the Havens?

[Daniel]

So we started with a red rose 🌹 sitting into the hilt of a right leaning sword. Then we went to a lyranthe festooned with a tangled red ribbon-then segued to a raven sitting in the same spot as the red rose but the sword is leaning left with the same red ribbon which isnt as tangled. If the rose stands for brotherly love and also the loss of that love, then the raven could be the harbinger of bad luck or rather, the curse. But I also like Sandra’s idea. I also think something is written in the geometry sitting below the gargoyles, but I can’t puzzle it out..:(

[Laura]

Check the geometry in the new photo I added at Janny's suggestion with the black mist and lightning. It should be the same.

@Sandra - nice catch with the ribbons. :)

[Daniel]

Janny said to check out the mist in the first photo and I think I see two gargoyles above the two brothers in dark mist.

[Olivia]

Chapter Set 1: (view spoiler)[Poor Elaira having such hot dreams about that man. Then the next scene actually got a physical reaction of me. I mean she sucks out the baby’s lung and I just began to cough and had to stop reading so I wouldn’t make myself sick...I’m not very good with vomit and other things....then that prophecy???? Wow! So I’m supposed to root for that child do die in fire??
And then Lysaer. Well, still don’t like him...
(hide spoiler)]

[Daniel]

@Olivia (view spoiler)[One child, four possible fates, looped through the thread of his life span. He will grow to reach manhood. Should he die in fire, none suffers but he. Yours to choose when that time comes, Fferedon’li. Should he die on salt water, the one ye love most falls beside him. Should he die landbound, in crossed steel and smoke, the same one ye cherish survives, but betrayed. Yet should this child’s days extend to old age, first the five kingdoms, then the whole world will plunge into darkness, never to see sunlight or redemption. Your burden to choose in the hour of trial, Fferedon’li, and this child’s to give, the natural death or the sacrifice. Let him be called Fionn Areth Caid-an.”
Okay, so a prophecy that forces Eliara to choose when a young man dies. How nice for her! It does seem to indicate that this is at least twenty years in the future, but still, no fun. Lysaer is still a complete jerk, and in my opinion has zero redeemable qualities. (hide spoiler)]

[Laura]

I'm back from my mountain trip and didn't get any chance to log on properly from there - no network. :)

Anyway, regarding the symbols, I think Janny said the gargoyles were just statuary and she suggested we take a look at the symbols on the wall. As you have e-books I have taken photos of the pages from my books that show the symbols. There is one symbol/drawing for each book and I'm posting them here:

Curse of the Mistwraith


Ships of Merior


Warhost of Vastmark


Fugitive Prince


I didn't get to check if any of the above symbols appear on the covers also but just in case. :)

[Laura]

I'm closing up 2 of my open reads tonight and will start this early morning. Will open the spoilers then.

[Laura]

Chapter Set 1

I agree with both of you Olivia and Daniel regarding (view spoiler)[the prophecy. Wow! That's the only thing that comes to mind! That is so cruel and unfair to have to choose between the way a person dies - especially when you were the one who helped him live in the first place. 😔

I loved that part when Elaira saves the baby. But then I like to read about healing in general - and that was so very nicely written. (hide spoiler)]

Lysaer (view spoiler)[In the beginning I started to hate him for all the things he does and then, after that scene at the temple, I softened up a bit and felt only sorrow for him because there seemed to be a bit of humanity under all that curse and now .... damn it! The guy wants to unite the whole continent in his hunt for Arithon and under his rule! And after all that show in Ships when he refused the mayor's gift of slaves and made such a big protest against slavery - he is ordering all those who don't bend a knee to him to be turned into galley slaves! That is just sick!!!!

So yeah! Just about right now, the world would be a better place without Lysaer in it.

And that warning delivered by the sight! This book sure starts on an ominous note. (hide spoiler)]

[Daniel]

Laura wrote: "Chapter Set 1

I agree with both of you Olivia and Daniel regarding the prophecy. Wow! That's the only thing that comes to mind! That is so cruel and unfair to have to choose between the way a pers..."

Chapter three gets worse(view spoiler)[ Through the dedication of all people, moral strength shall prevail against darkness!” This quote from Lysaer is Hitlerlike in nature. In this chapter it is made clear Lysaer does have choices circa his application of the curse-and he is choosing POORLY! I think I will quit talking about what a jerk he is, lol just seems kinda repetitive! (hide spoiler)]