Poldark Saga - Winston Graham discussion

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As a husband, who would you be happer being married to?

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message 1: by Harold (last edited Mar 27, 2018 06:26PM) (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments Demelza is a character, very strong when your in need, but seems to need confirmation of her desirably from men other then her husband. When Ross isn't watching she seems to like to lead men on IMO. Lechers like Hugh B, John T. and young admiring men like captain McNeil

Elizabeth on the other hand, while not being so useful needs no confirmation of her desirably. Once she married, no other need pursue her because she all in once married.
Not the case with Demelza, lechers like Hugh b, or John T. are not cut off at the knee, neither are handsome men like McNeil or HA.
Even after HA and Monk it continues with her trip to Boswood.

Ideally it would be a combination of the two women., but if I had to pick give me the one I didn't have to worry about misbehaving.


message 2: by Grace (new)

Grace | 6 comments Well, I am not a husband, but I think Demelza. Elizabeth poisoned Francis’s life because she didn’t love him. She didn’t stray, but would that be worth the bitterness and coldness? Besides Hugh, the only time Demelza really allows anything is when she is trying to help Ross.


message 3: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments My choice would be Caroline.... Now there's the whole package, beauty, brains, and money. It would be bon bon's in bed 5 days a week, two to rest. haha

Elizabeth has strong moments, but she's a weak character... I'd get tired of a "Yes" woman.

Demelza certainly isn't a "Yes" woman, but she's bottom of the list because of her slut-ish behavior. I don't know about the other guys but I consider what she did with Capt McNeil to be over the line for a wife. Kissing a guy and letting him feel you up is just not wife material. Demelza needs to have male bees buzzing her flower all the time. She disguises it as being polite, but it's not at all polite to her husband.

My comments are focused on the TV Series Demelza..... Book Demelza would probably be tied with Caroline. I could forgive her indiscretion with McNeil because she realized she only wanted Ross. I could even forgive her tryst with Hugh, because even thought she was attracted to him, she fought hard to keep her vows. I don't think she wanted it to happen, unlike series Demelza who made it happen.


message 4: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethsbookfinds) I'm also not the intended audience for this question, but I have to speak up for Elizabeth as far as her marriage to Francis goes. I think it's really unfair to lay all the blame at her feet for how badly it turned out because she is a practical person who naturally wants to please others and not ruffle feathers. It's true that she could have made more of an effort with Francis, but when watching the show and reading the books, I ALWAYS thought Francis was the one leaving more to be desired. If he had actively pursued and loved and engaged with Elizabeth from the beginning of their marriage, I think a lot could have been avoided. It's hardly her fault that he let his insecurities and jealousy totally strangle him. Her resilience throughout his years of infidelity and gambling is actually something I admire her for. While it's true that they both play their parts, Francis's neglect of her was totally inexcusable and certainly contributed to to how hard she grew towards him before the big turnaround. I think it's easy to remember Francis as the redeemed person he became, but he still deeply wronged Elizabeth in the earlier years of their marriage when she had done nothing to deserve it. Her response to him as time went on maybe wasn't one of a loving wife, but I can't say I would have found it easy to love a husband who was behaving like he was either.


message 5: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Elizabeth wrote: "I'm also not the intended audience for this question, but I have to speak up for Elizabeth as far as her marriage to Francis goes. I think it's really unfair to lay all the blame at her feet for ho..."
Elizabeth, I agree with ya about Elizabeth. She commits 100
% to a marriage...... It's too bad her luck seems to couple her with insecure guys, and both jealous of Ross. She stood behind Francis even when she knew he was wrong and wronging her too. Now she's standing behind George and his decisions. Some of which she feels guilty about, like blackmailing Morwenna. Elizabeth was the stereotypical lady of her class for that time period. Her life would have been totally different if she had ignored her mother and married Ross when he came back from war. (of course we wouldn't have a story, haha)


message 6: by Harold (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments Definitely blame Francis for the marriage going bad. Geez he blew his family money and if George wanted to bankrupt him he could have. As is, they were living much more tight. I thought Elizabeth handled the down grade rather well.


message 7: by Harold (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments Ken wrote: "My choice would be Caroline.... Now there's the whole package, beauty, brains, and money. It would be bon bon's in bed 5 days a week, two to rest. haha

Elizabeth has strong moments, but she's a we..."

I don’t see Elizabeth as a yes gal, but rather supportive and loyal.
Think the worst alternative is a wife that’s a flirt ( which Demelza is) and unfaithfully to boot. Seems a receipt for misery.


message 8: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Harold wrote: "Ken wrote: "My choice would be Caroline.... Now there's the whole package, beauty, brains, and money. It would be bon bon's in bed 5 days a week, two to rest. haha

Elizabeth has strong moments, bu..."

Harold, I wasn't trying to be harsh on Elizabeth, the "yes girl" was about her being supportive. Elizabeth supports even when she doesn't agree. Like with George sending Geoffrey Charles away or blackmailing Morwenna into marriage.
She still was second choice of the Series girls.... Demelza is last of the three because DH has turned her into a harpy harlot in S3. What she does with McNeil and Hugh is not flirting, she's far past that line. Ross made a big mistake trusting her to do the right thing, no wonder he blowups when he hears about Monk in her bedroom. (series Demelza only).
Demelza gave up her chance to harmlessly flirt when she spread her legs for Hugh.


message 9: by Harold (last edited Mar 31, 2018 02:35PM) (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments Grace wrote: "Well, I am not a husband, but I think Demelza. Elizabeth poisoned Francis’s life because she didn’t love him. She didn’t stray, but would that be worth the bitterness and coldness? Besides Hugh, th..."

I’d say that Francis poisoned his own life, gambling his wealth away, having whores. Elizabeth made the best of a bad situation where Francis wasn’t up to facing being the head of the family.

Demelza may of been unfaithful only once, but she did like leading men on. Even after playing the game of leading men on lead to unfaithness, then a duel that ended in death, she continued on when she went with Clowance to Boswood and lead Colonel Powys-Jones on a merry chase. After all Ross wasn’t around. Then the next man she attracts ends up throwing Ross in prison. How fun it must be to married to one that brings on this kind of attention. I think the first time I realize that being married to Demelza would be a trial is when Captain McNeil asked her ( not Ross of course) if he could visit. She “forgets” to mention that to Ross and of course he arrives when he knows Ross is at the mine. Then she allows him to invite himself in. One wonders what might of happened if Ross had not arrived home early. There is Demelza knocking back drinks with McNeil while he makes advances to her. As a husband I would have been very unhappy. I would definitely give Demelza a hard no as a wife. Won’t want to have to beat off men who “ misunderstand Demelza friendliness “ on a regular basis.


message 10: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Grace wrote: "Besides Hugh, the only time Demelza really allows anything is when she is trying to help Ross..."
What about McNeil, Grace? I consider what she did at the party cheating. Kissing a guy, asking him to your room, and letting him feel you up..... is not the way a loving wife acts. Just because she didn't go all the way doesn't make it OK. Demelza is way too liberal with her affection to guys who aren't her husband. I think Ross is justified in wondering when the next time will happen.
Caroline knows, remember when she said if they both walked in a room men would look at her, but 5 mins later they'd all be gathered around Demelza? It's like Demelza has "easy" tattooed on her forehead.
What about her kissing Bedrugan for information? Ross might not be so off the mark in asking her how many times she's chased him from her bed while he was away. Demelza just doesn't know where to draw the line when she's getting male attention.


message 11: by Harold (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments Ken wrote: "Grace wrote: "Besides Hugh, the only time Demelza really allows anything is when she is trying to help Ross..."
What about McNeil, Grace? I consider what she did at the party cheating. Kissing a gu..."


The event at the ball, I give Demelza a pass on. The idea of revenge sex, while in practice is a terrible idea, is understandably considered while your angry and hurt by your spouse being unfaithful.
I don't consider Demelza a easy women ( although she can be had), rather more of a flirt and tease. When Demelza says "tis not likely to happen again" I agree with that assessment. She not claiming it won't happen again, but it would take the following things:
A) Someone good looking
B) Someone very charming and couth. A fellow like Monk she would have little interest in.
C) Someone highly attracted to her and willing to romance her and willing to put in the time. She won't just jump in bed quickly, fellow would need chase her for a bit.
D) Have the opportunity of being around enough.
E) Finally a safe place and time for "it" to happen.

So in fact it is not likely to happen again....but it could.


message 12: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Harold wrote: "Ken wrote: "Grace wrote: "Besides Hugh, the only time Demelza really allows anything is when she is trying to help Ross..."
What about McNeil, Grace? I consider what she did at the party cheating. ..."

Although I am not a fan of this later Demelza, I feel I must step in here. Although you say that you don't consider Demelza an easy woman (rather sexist language here I thought) your description of Demelza suggests she is more than a flirt. I disagree with you that it could happen again. Demelza has learned her lesson from Hugh, I think and in the books there is no suggestion that Hugh was 'revenge sex'. She was out of her depth with Hugh Armitage - a real cad in my opinion but she did realise that she truly loved Ross and would not hurt him in that way again. So I don't think it could happen again.


message 13: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Stella wrote: "Harold wrote: "Ken wrote: "Grace wrote: "Besides Hugh, the only time Demelza really allows anything is when she is trying to help Ross..."
What about McNeil, Grace? I consider what she did at the p..."


Stella, we're mixing apples and oranges here..... I agree with you on book Demelza.... But DH writes a different character. She was eager to get Hugh in the weeds... She left her badly beaten brother, picked a fight with Ross to ease her guilt, and went straight to Hugh. She suggested the walk not Hugh. Then she took over the seduction with very little resistance. She does fight holding his hand because someone might see, but then what does she do with his hand minutes later?

Book Demelza tries to keep her virtue and repeatedly rejects Hughs advances. She honestly only wanted to be his friend, even though she was physically attracted to him.....

I had little problem forgiving Book Demelza, because circumstances she didn't create came together to provide the opportunity that finally melted her resolve.
Series Demelza I have real problems justifying her actions. Ross is off protecting their lives (or so he thinks) and she's playing doctor behind the house trying to bang the blind out of Hugh.

I agree book D would never allow another indiscretion, but I don't feel the same about the series. Maybe Debbie will convince me this season but at present Demelza's character is very damaged as a loving wife.


message 14: by Harold (last edited Apr 01, 2018 07:30AM) (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments Stella wrote: "Harold wrote: "Ken wrote: "Grace wrote: "Besides Hugh, the only time Demelza really allows anything is when she is trying to help Ross..."
What about McNeil, Grace? I consider what she did at the p..."


I don't think her affair had anything to do with revenge sex. Rather it's that her defenses can be weak when it comes to someone like Hugh. Young, dashing, romantic, sexy and dogged. I did not sense that Demelza felt all that guilty about her unfaithfulness. Feel her thoughts run along the line of " what Ross doesn't know won't hurt him". However she isn't looking for a lover and wasn't when Hugh came into her life, but she is susceptible to someone that she is attracted to by that chemistry that goes on between the opposite sexes and her flirting nature (which doesn't spot with Hugh) does open the door for men to flirt back.
There is a reason she said not likely rather then it would never ever happen again.


message 15: by Val (last edited Apr 02, 2018 01:27PM) (new)

Val Ivey | 50 comments Harold wrote: I don't think her affair had anything to do with revenge sex. ."

I do think it had a lot to do with revenge sex. Not totally, but a key to her dalliance.

She was unable to commit the act with McNeil, for which she was very angry with Ross and felt great humiliation and self contempt. But in the main was Demelza’s “suspicion that Ross was again meeting Elizabeth on the quite,” and perhaps “had spent the night” in her arms when he said: he was “out arresting rioters.”

But what really tugged at her heartstrings was when Ross confessed his meeting with Elizabeth at Sawle Church Yard, and walking back to Trenwith with her and through that interaction had realized how very important and central Demelza was to him. Upon hearing this Demelza ‘felt very alone’ at the end of that discussion. Because her belief regarding Ross’s renewed interest in Elizabeth had been shattered. She could not reinvigorate her many excuses for her infidelity.


message 16: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Ken wrote: "Stella wrote: "Harold wrote: "Ken wrote: "Grace wrote: "Besides Hugh, the only time Demelza really allows anything is when she is trying to help Ross..."
What about McNeil, Grace? I consider what s..."

Ken - I agree with you about the differences between series Demelza and book Demelza. In fact looking at this particular part of TFS one has to wonder where DH gets her ideas from - certainly not from the book!


message 17: by Grace (new)

Grace | 6 comments I thought we were talking about the books. I can’t bring myself to watch the third series...
In the show, Elizabeth is much warmer and it seems like she turns to Ross because Francis is so terrible, but in the books it seems more like she was cold and disappointed. She might not have cheated, but she did tell Ross that she wished she had married him instead of Francis when Francis was still alive.


message 18: by Myrt (new)

Myrt (anwenn) | 21 comments Ken wrote: "Stella wrote: "Harold wrote: "Ken wrote: "Grace wrote: "Besides Hugh, the only time Demelza really allows anything is when she is trying to help Ross..."
What about McNeil, Grace? I consider what s..."


I couldn't agree more that comparing book Demelza with new series Demelza is like comparing apples and oranges but I think the same holds true for most of the characters especially Ross.

The reasons WHY Demelza cheats in the series seem to be directly tied to her disatisfaction with her relationship with Ross which wasn't an issue (minus the meeting with Elizabeth) in Demelza's reasons for hooking up with Hugh at all. Maybe DH thought it was too vague for viewers and decided to create her own over the top revenge sex reasons.

New Demelza is constantly frustrated with Ross (and does she really need to keep bringing up Valentine?!) and sometimes with very good reasons although I think book Demelza would have insisted on talking them out with Ross before taking such a drastic action instead of taunting him with her feelings.

New Ross, however, is no prize either and never gives Demelza a chance to talk and actually lies directly to her every single time she brings up his visit to Agatha's grave. The fact Demelza keeps asking him (even before Prudie tells her what she saw) about what should have been such an innocuous visit ought to have twigged Ross that Demelza had heard Elizabeth was there! (It never even occurs to book Demelza to question Ross about it.)

Then whenever Demelza keeps trying to talk to Ross about taking the political positions and backing he's constantly being offered if he wants to really help the beleaguered lower classes (as opposed to hiring every unemployed laborer in Cornwall), he keeps biting her head off and telling her she married the wrong man! Her timing may not always have been great but Demelza had a point and one book Ross would have listened too as well. He definitely wouldn't have spoken to his wife in such an angry and harsh manner! I don't know why it took a silly made up riot for Ross to realize what EVERYONE else already knew!)

The two of them were constantly bickering and it was really unpleasant to watch and made a lot of viewers who hadn't read the books wonder why they were even together.

Sadly I don't see DH doing anything to change that perception in the upcoming season although she has said the next season will focus on what Demelza's motives were - something I thought DH had gone to great lengths to make obvious.


message 19: by Elizabeth (last edited Apr 02, 2018 12:59PM) (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethsbookfinds) Myrt wrote: "Ken wrote: "Stella wrote: "Harold wrote: "Ken wrote: "Grace wrote: "Besides Hugh, the only time Demelza really allows anything is when she is trying to help Ross..."
What about McNeil, Grace? I con..."


You're totally right, Myrt. What's odd to me is that Horsfield swears in multiple interviews I've read and watched that Demelza is NOT acting out of revengeful motives in the show. What? It's truly mystifying to think that she could have written it the way she did and then not expected that people would interpret it at least partly as revenge. I actually went back and reread The Four Swans after Season 3 aired and it made me pretty disappointed with Ross and Demelza's arcs in Season 3. All the bickering and petty anger between them is so different from the books and it's really a shame when we could have had all the fun and teasing and loving scenes between them from the books.


message 20: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Eliazbeth..... the reason DH has to say it wasn't revenge, is the way she wrote it, that's the only conclusion one can make. She gave Demelza all the excuses in half an episode.... Prudy's church reveal, Fight with Ross on the beach and then straight on to Hugh. If she didn't plan on sex with him, why suggest the walk where she knew they'd be alone?
The difference between series D and book D is huge. Series D has been planning to cheat from the "wish I were 2 people" speech where she tells Ross she wants to "LOVE HIM" for a day. Book D says she doesn't NOT want to "love" elsewhere.

Series D is very proactive in her own seduction, to the point it's her doing the seducing. She suggested a walk where she knew they'd be alone. She picked the spot and pulled him down on her. She's the one that kissed him and then put his hand up her dress.

Book D fights to the end to keep her vows. She tell Hugh it's not a good day to see the seals and doesn't want to go.... She thinks she'll have a chaperone in the groom Hugh brought .... She rebuts all his advances until she finally leans back and gives into lust and opportunity.

Myrt.... I wasn't trying to leave Ross's character out in my post. haha Yes, they are 2 very different characters in S3, just like Demelza. I really disliked the organized attack on Ross by Debbie. the added lines of him pushing Demelza away and returning Demelza's surly attitude with one of his own. Debbie change both characters to give Demelza justification for her adultery. Now DH claims it wasn't because of what she showed on the screen. I call BS.
Debbie knew what she was doing and how the audience was reacting to Ross..... she even said that was why she added Ross's dream confession about meeting Elizabeth.

My question is how does Debbie get the audience to like Ross again and cheer for him and Demelza to be a couple .... most of the young audience thinks they should separate, and applaud Demelza's adultery. In making room for Hugh, and giving Demelza reasons and cover..... DH destroyed their relationship.
So different from Winston's couple that didn't love each other less.
Just as the tryst that was rushed and didn't make sense.... I fear their reconciliation will be the same.

Sry if this post is on the wrong thread, but the discussion kinda went this way. :))


message 21: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Ken wrote: "Eliazbeth..... the reason DH has to say it wasn't revenge, is the way she wrote it, that's the only conclusion one can make. She gave Demelza all the excuses in half an episode.... Prudy's church r..."
Ken - a great summary and spot on I think. Couldn't have put it better myself.


message 22: by Bernie (last edited Apr 03, 2018 02:10PM) (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Ken wrote: "The difference between series D and book D is huge. Series D has been planning to cheat from the "wish I were 2 people" speech where she tells Ross she wants to "LOVE HIM" for a day. Book D says she doesn't NOT want to "love" elsewhere. "

I agree with Stella and think you are spot on. I have always felt sorry for WG's Demelza because she got in over her head without the support she needed to have from Ross. He like that she was coveted by others, especially Hugh who he very much like and admitted. His admonition to remember to be a good girl could only go so far, and when things did not work out as he wanted and expected it impacted their relationship for years. He is angry and jealous and she is guilty, lonely and very sad. To me this would have been a much more powerful story than the one DH made up.
I have often wondered why she felt she could not be true to WG story. Could it be that she knew she was not up to doing it justice? WG's story is very nuanced and would have been very difficult to bring to the screen. DH's versions of Ross and Demelza are very straight forward characters. Didn't take much to explain why Demelza gave in to Hugh--a flower, a picture, some sweet talk and revenge, and of course, a husband who did not respect their relationship. Easily said, shown and explained. Now consider if she had tried to follow WG. How would she had shown that Demelza never stopped loving Ross? How would she have shown Demelza rumination over why/how she could have slipped into adultery with Hugh; her thoughts about keeping the poems; the fact that at the first opportunity she has the best sex she has had with Ross for a very long time. We all know that Demelza cannot explain these things, and if she couldn't how could poor DH explain them to her audience and bring it to the screen. Maybe from her point, better not try. It is easier to change the story. Make it simple. Give Demelza the excuses that she could not find in the pages of WG's account.


message 23: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "The difference between series D and book D is huge. Series D has been planning to cheat from the "wish I were 2 people" speech where she tells Ross she wants to "LOVE HIM" for a day. Bo..."
You make a very good point, Bernie. DH opted for the easy to understand version.... Make Ross a jerk for a husband, and let Demelza look elsewhere for emotional support and sex (after all she just found out Ross was probably still cheating with Liz)
I don't think DH has any trust that her audience would understand a nuauced approach to the story. I think she knew her approach would have viewers hating Ross, she wanted to give Demelza plenty of reasons to cheat so they wouldn't hate her too. lol.... I don't understand why she didn't insert more Hugh earlier in the season, rather than cram it all at the end. The way she did the tryst makes Demelza look cheap and easy, which we know she's not.
The jury is still out on the aftermath of the tryst, we don't know what Debbie has in mind for her reasons. The neglected heart BS I just don't see. Ross didn't run for office so he could be at home on the farm with his family. As far as Debbie constantly banging the Valentine son drum and Ross won't listen to me, I think she failed. I don't think DH made a reasonable case for Demelza to cheat. Certainly not one that didn't rely heavily on revenge.


message 24: by Bernie (last edited Apr 03, 2018 03:26PM) (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "The difference between series D and book D is huge. Series D has been planning to cheat from the "wish I were 2 people" speech where she tells Ross she wants to "LOVE HIM..."

I always thought that season three should have ended with Demelza getting the amorous poem from Hugh and looking out to sea torn between her love for Ross and her longing/lust for Hugh. There would have been the parallel with the way seasons 1 and 2 ended with Ross and Demelza looking to the future, but this time she would have been on the cliff alone.

It could have played this way. Consider if Demelza had sought Caroline's comfort and told her about the exchange she had with Hugh the morning he left. How she had told him over and over again that all she wanted was his friendship and did not give him permission to lover her, but who she had tacitly agreed to accept his poems. DH could have gotten all this out in the talk with Caroline, not admitted to adultery, because it had not yet happened, and we could have all been writing and talking about, what would she do. She could even have had Demelza and Caroline discussing why the poems were important to her and her whole insecurity about being a miner's daughter, which is a very important theme that DH never really develops. This would have been true to the book, and DH would not have had to make Ross a jerk. In the book Demelza says that Caroline knew some of it, and this could have been the part that she knew. There is nothing in the books that suggested that Caroline knew the whole story and this part would be faithful to what follows without destroying their friendship. Then in season 4 DH could start with Hugh's return and show Demelza's plight, with Ross's belated discovery of her feeling--then on to TAT..


message 25: by Ken (last edited Apr 03, 2018 03:51PM) (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Ken wrote: "The difference between series D and book D is huge. Series D has been planning to cheat from the "wish I were 2 people" speech where she tells Ross she wants ..."
It's woulda, coulda, shoulda, my friend. I agree your finale would have been compelling and a fine cliffhanger to ponder during the hiatus..... Debbie doesn't even have Hugh leave to return to the navy. We don't get the feeling he's been wooing her for 18 months, more like 18 days. (that's what makes Demelza's decision to surrender so vengeful and impulsive).... Dwight and Caroline already know from the comments they've made at the dinners, then there's the love ballet she sings to him. Even Ross knows something is amiss because of his "slow clap" I keep coming back to "just-too-rushed" Sometimes I wonder if Debbie even read the book, or just the cliffnotes. She had to know this was a major thread in Winston's story, and one that sparked much discussion by readers. She didn't do it justice with the time she allotted, so she made Ross the jerk and Demelza the unhappily married spouse that wasn't getting what she needed.
There are so many holes in her adaptation.... How does a nooner in the sand heal D's neglected heart. (surely that takes 2 nooners) Hugh I can't hold your hand, because someone might see.... here hide it under my dress. lol
Frankly I didn't see Ross's neglect..... Demelza is wounded because she can't force him into politics? He's off training men to protect them from the French? At the parties Ross was pulled off to talk politics, isn't that exactly what she wanted? It gave Demelza opportunity to flirt with Hugh, which is exactly what she wanted.
I don't think Debbie made a case for the neglect, either. (at least not for me)
Maybe Debbie will use Caroline to bounce Demelza excuses off. Although Caroline didn't know for sure until D came the night she got the news. I just hope we get some of the great thoughts she had to herself as she analyzed her actions on Tuesday, and the impact they might have on her marriage.
I don't have much hope, because I don't think Debbie will reverse her field and have Demelza feel remorse for what she did. She'll probably still blame it all on Ross and Demelza was forced to find love elsewhere.


message 26: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethsbookfinds) Ken, I agree with your analysis of Demelza in the book vs. the show. I also saw how the writing seemed to be trying to turn audiences against Ross and that bothered me. I guess I just saw the excusing of Demelza’s infidelity as similar to revenge, which is why I don’t understand why Debbie Horsfield insists it ISN’T revenge. But as you said, she wrote Demelza as a pretty angry woman who’s still mad at Ross for his affair, and Ross is pretty snappish and preoccupied on top of that. Then Prudie’s version of the church incident was the last straw. I thought Demelza’s attitude by that point in the show could be interpreted as “Well, Ross is still meeting Elizabeth and has been neglecting me, so I’m just going to do what I want with Hugh.” It’s a setup that excuses her actions, like you said, and that seemed like the same thing as revenge to me, or at least partly revenge. And revenge or hurt over how Ross was currently treating her was not a factor in the book version of the Hugh situation, as you mentioned. I (along with many others here, it seems!) wish Horsfield had had more faith that her audience would be able to see multiple factors at work in that storyline and had written it as such.


message 27: by Ken (last edited Apr 03, 2018 05:23PM) (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Elizabeth wrote: “Well, Ross is still meeting Elizabeth and has been neglecting me, so I’m just going to do what I want with Hugh.”
We both see it the same way, and that's exactly how Debbie wanted to portray the tryst. It gives Demelza cover for not doing anything wrong. She was just responding to what "evil" Ross did to her, how can she be responsible for her actions..... It's all Ross's fault!
Sometimes I wonder if Debbie is a bit of a man hater. She seems to be steering the story towards a "feminist" point of view. I personally have always felt relationships are a joining of EQUAL partners, looking to support each other, but Debbie seems to tip the scale towards a bias. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how making the audience hate Ross and his relationship with Demelza, gets turned around this season. How is she going to put them back in a loving relationship before the sh*t hits the fan again in S4? We know what's coming.
What Debbie showed on screen as motivation for the tryst was 98% revenge, I don't care what she says in interviews. She's just trying to sway viewers to a different point of view she didn't bother to show. All Demelza's excuses in the book get overshadowed by the sequence of events Debbie showed in the last 3 episodes. It's all about hurt feeling and paybacks.
The only glimmer of hope to return to the books is the last scene. Demelza seems to be contrite about what she might have done to her marriage. I wonder if that will continue when she finds out her assumptions about the church meeting were bogus.


message 28: by Bernie (last edited Apr 04, 2018 06:19AM) (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Ken wrote: "Debbie seems to tip the scale towards a bias. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how making the audience hate Ross and his relationship with Demelza,."

Your not wrong. Even when DH is close to the book she adds things that are totally out of character. At the S3E1 when R &D are on the beach she tells him she is pregnant and in the book he ask is she sure and she says that she is because he has been at her since christmas, implying that they are having a lot of sex. Of course, to show that things are not fully recovered since R went off to see Elizabeth, DH leaves this out, but adds her telling him, that he she should not take her devotion to him for granted. Why would a loving wife says much a thing to a husband? Again, after Hugh's visit with the plant, he says that Hugh lives in a dream world and D says, but he is real, and R says that he count on her good judgement to remember that. Here DH has D being angry with R and after he take J to bed she says to P that she should box his ears, and P says that R thinks he is the only man in the world for D and that D should take a tumble with H to find out if that is true. I don't get it. Why is she angry? In DH's version, what did she expect him to say. Given the way it plays out the only thing that seems right to me is D face in the final scene. She should be contrite.


message 29: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Bernie wrote: "Hugh lives in a dream world and D says, but he is real, and R says that he count on her good judgement to remember that.."

Bernie, I'm glad I'm not the only one that didn't understand why Prudy and Demelza got mad at Ross's response..... It seem to me telling someone you trusted their judgement was a compliment, not something to get angry at..... I also didn't get why they thought it was Ross saying he was the only one. Jeeze, he's her husband, I would hope he's the only one in the world for her. And why would Prudy tell D she should betray that trust and have a roll with Hugh??? None of their reactions made sense to me.
Why does Prudy seem so embarrassed when she tells Ross Demelza is off with Hugh? Isn't that exactly what she was plotting to happen? Wasn't that the purpose of telling D about Sawle church?
DH makes up lines that don't make sense to me, and I certainly didn't understand their anger about what Ross said.


message 30: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "Hugh lives in a dream world and D says, but he is real, and R says that he count on her good judgement to remember that.."

Bernie, I'm glad I'm not the only one that didn't understa..."


Absolutely, it is the reason why I find this TV production so unsatisfying. and yet DH wins awards. I don't get it. Frankly, the only saving grace for this production is the showing of Cornwall. And next week my wife and I take for on a long trip that will end with a week in Cornwall in the middle of May. Between Poldark and Doc Martin we have a lot to see.


message 31: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethsbookfinds) Agreed. I don’t understand why Demelza was so angry for much of the season or why she seemed determined to hold his wrongdoing over his head as a weapon. That’s not at all who Demelza is in the novels. Yes, she’s hurt and expects more of Ross, but she’s not petty or making him “earn” forgiveness. I wonder too what DH’s motives were — I don’t see how turning audiences against Ross seemed like a good idea. I’m hoping too that Demelza’s seeming contrition in the last scene is the silver lining. I’ve about given up on trying to guess how she’ll write all the stuff that’s coming. There’s just so much and who knows after all she changed in S3.


message 32: by Ken (last edited Apr 04, 2018 06:48PM) (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "I find this TV production so unsatisfying. and yet DH wins awards. I don't get it.."

Forgive me if I've posted this before, but DH's awards changed with S3..... Radio times yearly viewer poll had Poldark first place drama in S1,2... S3 DH was second.... yet, Aidan and Eleanore were first all 3 seasons as actor and actress.
I don't know any book readers that like her adaptation better or even equal to the book..... pretty much all disliked what DH did in S3. I think this poll shows that........ Will it rein her in to follow the books more closely in S4???? Maybe..... She was given a masterpiece that was one of the all time best series on BBC in 75'..... It's obvious to me she has an agenda for her bias writing.

Elizabeth wrote: "I don’t understand why Demelza was so angry for much of the season or why she seemed determined to hold his wrongdoing over his head as a weapon.."
Your right Elizabeth... Demelza was nasty and cold to Ross this season.... almost no affection or kissing. I zipped through the season because I have it on files..... here's an eye opener
S03E01...no kiss no affection.
S03E02 1 kiss
S03E03... only bed scene that suggests sex in the whole season.
S03E04...no kiss no affection.
S03E05...no kiss no affection.
S03Eo6 ...no kiss no affection.
S03E07...Loving morning kiss. Demelza tells Ross she's content
S03E08...no kiss no affection.
S03E09...no kiss no affection.(except with Hugh)

so 5 kisses in 3 eps..... 3 bed scenes but only one sex indicated...
I have a list of the nasty stuff she did that supports why I think she was a bad wife in S3 without even considering her adultery.

She lectures him about not taking the magistrates job, even though she knows it would go against his core values to take orders from those in power
Later she blames him again when Drake is arrested for the Bible.

She tells others not to tell Ross about Drake and the toads.

She tells others not to tell Ross about Drake getting beat, and then chews Ross for not confronting George.

She decides not to tell Ross that Clowance is being born, so he couldn't be there.

He goes twice to France to free Dwight, she kisses him good bye only once when he's mounted

She has nothing to say about Ross buying a business and farm for her brother.

She has no words of comfort when Ross finds out Agatha is dead, but follows him while he's grieving to bitch about him not going into politics.

She hides love poems and reads them alone at the beach

At three parties she shamelessly flirts with Armitage while their friends look on. Then sings a love song to him.

She says Ross has her heart and then asks for a guilt free day to have sex with someone else.

She fights with him at the beach in front of his men, and leaves to betray him before he can explain the church.

She tells Ross she thought she might not return.... WTF does that mean?

Ross showed us what he fears most in life in episode 5.... The vision he had of being blamed for Drakes death by those he loves..... Ross' deepest fear is rejection, and after 13 yrs of marriage Demelza should have no doubt about that.
So Demelza rejects her vows, Ross, and marriage to be with another. There's nothing more harmful to her relationship she could have done. If her motivation was to hurt Ross out of anger and revenge, she succeeded.

This is all Debbie added crap and rewriting of scenes. :((


message 33: by Stella (new)

Stella Day | 391 comments Ken wrote: "Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "I find this TV production so unsatisfying. and yet DH wins awards. I don't get it.."

Forgive me if I've posted this before, but DH's awards changed with S3..... Radio ti..."

Spot on Ken and as I am going to the series 4 preview on 2nd May I shall try to get in a question about this aspect which dominates the whole of series 3.


message 34: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Stella wrote: "Ken wrote: "Ken wrote: "Bernie wrote: "I find this TV production so unsatisfying. and yet DH wins awards. I don't get it.."

Forgive me if I've posted this before, but DH's awards changed with S3....."

Your the girl, Stella. Can't wait to hear the response. haha..... Do you know yet who will be attending?


message 35: by Parker (new)

Parker | 32 comments Bernie wrote, 'the only saving grace for this production is the showing of Cornwall...'

Well, the costuming is very good as well (except for Ross's tricorn. Ugh.) And in the first season, there was a shirtless Aidan Turner. I found the first two season quite well done, but the third really confounded me.

Am green with envy that you get to visit Cornwall. An excellent companion book is Winston Graham's Cornwall. Can't recommend it highly enough.


message 36: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (elizabethsbookfinds) So glad you’re getting to go, Stella! Definitely ask for what you can about this — would be very interested to hear how it goes and what you can gather!


message 37: by Ken (last edited Apr 07, 2018 08:23AM) (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Elizabeth wrote: "There’s just so much and who knows after all she changed in S3. ."
Other than making Demelza a bitchy nag and Ross an uncaring jerk, DH set the stage to totally change Ross's motivation to enter politics. Debbie wrote one of the dumbest scenes of the series, by having Ross and Dwight hold guns on their neighbors to protect George's grain..... total stupidity. So now Ross' epiphany at the grain riot is his reason to run, not finding out Demelza had indeed been unfaithful (in her feelings, if not her body) Ross accepted the position of MP to put distance between him and Demelza, not to change the grain pricing laws. haha
This changes the angst that brought about the angry tide of emotional feelings, and lessens Demelza's part in the estrangement of their marriage.
In fact Ross becoming MP should make Demelza elated, that's all she bitched about in S3.
Could it be the "Miner's Daughter" has new shafts to explore?"
Sry, I could resist a cheap shot. Debbie's Demelza is off my Christmas list. And that's the very reason S3 is upsetting, I never loved Winston's Demelza less. She was a victim of circumstances and lust that she acted on, not an unhappy wife looking to get even.

It's not possible to compare series Demelza and book Demelza except in contrast.... about all they have in common is the name. (the last 3 eps)
I wrestle with Ross's lack of action as the tryst was building in both the book and series. Ross is vane, and likes other men to admire his wife. I think he was insecure about his choice when they were first married. The book doesn't describe Demelza as a beautiful woman, at least not like Liz.
Ross had to see Demelza was getting emotionally involved with Hugh and just telling her to be careful wasn't enough. I think he did want to test her love for him after being betrayed by Elizabeth twice. What I really hate is book Ross keeps his good opinion of Hugh even after he suspects he's been cuckold. That makes no sense to me.


message 38: by Harold (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments I saw the TV series before reading the book and still knew that in the last series DH was doing a hatchet job on Ross. As soon as they had Ross saying " If that what you want, you must seek another"
I barely think of the series now, just the books.


message 39: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Ken you are right on and Ross does not seem to learn. After all he has been through, after he realized that Demelza had grown to have feeling for Hugh, after the dual in London, after 2 more children with her, he still loves that she turn the heads of men when they are in Paris. He ends throwing a suitor out of their apartment, who later has the power of live and death over him. Kind of a replay of the dual in London.


message 40: by Harold (last edited Apr 07, 2018 12:52PM) (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments Ken,
I think most of us would have acted differently then Ross. I am referring to this part of your post:

"I wrestle with Ross's lack of action as the tryst was building in both the book and series. Ross is vane, and likes other men to admire his wife. I think he was insecure about his choice when they were first married. The book doesn't describe Demelza as a beautiful woman, at least not like Liz.
Ross had to see Demelza was getting emotionally involved with Hugh and just telling her to be careful wasn't enough. I think he did want to test her love for him after being betrayed by Elizabeth twice. What I really hate is book Ross keeps his good opinion of Hugh even after he suspects he's been cuckold. That makes no sense to me."

I think Ross doesn't want to be a jealous older husband type. He wants to be secure in his feelings towards Demelza and trust her.

From TFS.

As he came down the passage Ross heard laughter, and thought he could detect Demelza’s voice. He began to feel irritable. This visit seemed to him to be becoming a peculiar and undesirable repetition of the visit to Tehidy. He had been taken aside and engaged in stiff and sober conversation about the country’s and the county’s affairs by his stiff and sober host, as befitted his rapidly advancing years and considerable status, while his young wife enjoyed herself with people of her own age and flirted with a naval lieutenant.

By rights he should be developing a pot belly and be taking snuff and having twinges of the gout. To hell with that. He crossed the hall, a man half looking for trouble, but restrained by his inherent good sense.

‘Oh, Captain Poldark, your wife has gone upstairs with a group of others to see the view from our cupola while the light lasts. Would you permit me to show you the way?’ They climbed two flights and then a narrow stair which brought them into a glass dome looking over the roofs of the house. Demelza was there with Armitage and Dwight and St John Peter, Ross’s cousin. Ross emerged into the small glass room with no pleasure in his soul; but Demelza’s welcoming glance salved his annoyance.

Then Ross goes on to invite them to Seals Cove:

Ross said: ‘If the weather ever sets fair in this unaccommodating summer, bring your children to Nampara, Mrs Gower. It’s twenty minutes at the most from my cove to the Great Seal Hole, and I think there would be little risk of disappointment.’ Demelza looked at Ross in surprise. For someone who had not wanted to come today this was an unexpectedly friendly move. She was not to know that his change of mood from irritation and jealousy to reassurance at the sight of her had spurred a brief accompanying impulse to set his own conscience to rights.


message 41: by Bernie (last edited Apr 07, 2018 01:21PM) (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Harold, I think you are right. Even in Paris, fifteen years later he loves that people think that Demelza is his second wife. He loves the adoration that he has such an attractive wife that men covert, except that it brings our the jealousy and insecurity in him and he acts like a fool. He really is so lucky that Demelza loves and desires him. As you know she says that she got an electric charge from two men, and he was one of them, but the only one that she ever said she loved. Hugh clearly was very attractive by all accounts, but in Demelza's eyes did not out shine him, although he seemed to doubt it and always wondering what would have happened if Hugh had not died.


message 42: by Harold (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments Bernie wrote: "Harold, I think you are right. Even in Paris, fifteen years later he loves that people think that Demelza is his second wife. He loves the adoration that he has such an attractive wife that men cov..."

Oh he likes having a wife that is considered attractive, but like anyone he wants them to admire her from a distant, as would anyone with a attractive wife.
IDK if I would say Ross is lucky to have Demelza, rather the other way around IMO.
Finally I do disagree that Demelza didn't love Hugh. When she says Hugh came into her heart, where once there was only Ross cinches it for me.
Also when Demelza says it over and Ross asked " because Hugh is dead?" Demelza doesn't deny that, so yeah there is some question of where things would of went if Hugh had lived.

Glad we can agree that Ross didn't want to act like a older jealous husband even if he didn't care for rude individuals who would hit on his wife right in front of him.


message 43: by Bernie (new)

Bernie | 301 comments Harold, I know that I will never convince you but for the record her is my case (and Ken's) that Demelza lusted for Hugh, but never loved him, reserving that word for her feeling for Ross. Certainly, Hugh was in her heart and she cared deeply for him, but she sure got over him real quickly. ---"When can I see you again? .... Not, I believe for a long time. ... A long time will be too long for me. .... Hugh, please we should talk no more of this."

Consider that on the beach she keeps saying no and then we are told, "She began to trace figures in the sand. Her heart was beating as if there was a drum inside her. Her mouth was so dry she could not swallow. The nakedness of her body inside her frock seemed to have suddenly become more apparent to her, seemed to flower. She gave a slight groan which she tried to suppress altogether but could not quite. He sat back looking at her, a foot away from touching her. 'What is it?' 'Please let us go.' 'May I just then kiss you?' She raised her head and pushed her hair back. 'It would be quite wrong.' 'But you will permit it?' 'Perhaps I cannot stop you.' He moved towards her, and knew the moment he touched her that something had won his battle for him. (TFS, p. 413-414)

Do you really think it was love that had won his battle for him, or what we are told later "So what was the reason? Attraction, sheer physical attraction, which she had felt from the moment they had first met last year." (TFS, p. 429), which she seems to regret in short order, as she says to herself, "she had betrayed all -what she had with Ross- in a sudden unexpected quirk of pity and love and passion for a man she scarcely knew who happened to call and ask It was not quite credible. [Oh, yes the L word does appear here, but …. I don't think that makes the case…] She felt no less in love with Ross than before - perhaps, perversely, a little more so. She felt no different - or very little different - towards Hugh Armitage. She was taken with him, warmed by his love and returning some of it. … The experience, the physical experience, if one could separate it even in one's thoughts from the heart-stopping tension and sweet excitement of the day, had not in essence varied from what she had known before. … At the moment, what had happened on Tuesday was an event in isolation, unconnected with the past, unattached to the future. But if Ross knew of it, even got to suspect it, then the anonymity of the experience would be shattered, the isolation broken into, and her life with him might be laid waste. It was not an agreeable thought, and, standing at the window … she did not much like herself." (TFS, p. 427-431)

Some have argued that it must have been love because she keeps the poems, but the poems were important to her not because she loved him, but because she thought that they showed that he loved her, a miner's daughter. Demelza always, to the end has problem understanding how any educated person, a person of culture could take her for a lady. She always thinks of herself as a fraud, but Hugh's poems suggest something otherwise, and she cannot destroy them. Consider when she gets the poem with the formal thank you note written so Ross might see it she thinks, "However little or much the incident might come to mean in future years, the poem meant something. It meant something to her and she could not lose it." (TFS, p. 433).

Well, what did it mean? We are told in TAT, "Sometimes Demelza took out Hugh Armitage's poems and read them over. Had she inspired such passion? An educated young man, a lieutenant in the navy, who claimed he had known many women in his short life and loved only one … Well, that was gone forever, and she did not want it back, with its pulling at her heartstrings, the agony of divided loyalties. … She goes on to think, "Verity knew nothing of Hugh Armitage; she had never met him and therefore would be unable to understand or even guess at his terrible attraction." (TAT.pp. 370-371)

After the initial shock of Hugh's death, I cannot find one sentence in any of the books that shows that she mourned for Hugh. We do know that what she mourned for after Hugh's death was her close relationship with Ross: "Never since Hugh Armitage's death had there been total ease between them. Love and laughter, she had discovered before this, could exist on a plane which was not at all superficial but which did not penetrate to the depths of one's being. It had been so five years ago; it was so again now. She longed more than anything for the total submersion in each other that had occurred at other times. Only when it was withdrawn did one observe the tremendous gap that existed between that and the next stage." (TAT, p. 207)

Years later Demelza does tell Clowance that she has had two people in her life that gave an "electric charges when you hear them, see them, feel them," (TLC. p. 313) one being Hugh and the other Ross . While Clowance calls that love, I think Demelza knows it not "love," but is the "sheer physical attraction," the "his terrible attraction" she felt for Hugh.

She say," She was taken with him, warmed by his love and returning some of it" but solely reserved the word love to describe her feeling for Ross. (TFS, P.430). She put even the lust behind her very quickly, thinking that "the physical experience … had not in essence varied from what she had known before," was "unlikely to recur again," and when he says "When can I see you again?," she answers, "Not, I believe, for a long time." (TFS, p. 431) That is not to say she did not have feeling for Hugh, and openly admits them to Ross. When he returns from London, Ross asks if she fretted for Hugh, she says, no, "but perhaps a little for my husband." She readily admits to have felt a 'heartache' for Hugh. In London, when Ross is questioning her about Monk she says, "Are you serious in supposing … Because -because once something happened, because one I felt deeply about another man; …….

Again, years later, Demelsa tells Clowance, "We have been together for a very long time, your father and me, and except for one dire event on his side, and one dire event on mine we still feel as much for each other, … as we have always felt. In our lives, and I'm serious now, we have had so much loving, so very much loving. It has not staled. It varies from year to year, but it keeps always to a constant pitch of - of being deeply and truly involved. And desirous."

Also consider Ken's take on this. Ken wrote:

WG reserved the word love to describe Demelza's emotions with Ross and never used it referring to Hugh. Demelza talks several times about Hugh's love for her. Reflecting back a year later she says, "Well, that was gone forever, and she didn't want it back, with it's pulling at her heartstrings, the agony of divided loyalties." That confirms to me she was not "In Love" with Hugh.

Even when her passion of infatuation was at its peak and she gave him her body at Seal Hole, it was three months before he died. During that time she didn't once try to meet him alone. She did see him twice, but forced Ross to make the decision to visit sick Hugh..... She made no attempt or request to attend his funeral. That's not the way a woman "In love" would act.


message 44: by Harold (last edited Apr 07, 2018 08:20PM) (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments Don't know why your so hung up on Demelza not actually using the word love, but what does it mean to you when someone says he came into my heart? Isn't that saying they love him, only coached a bit differently? I think so, you should also, because I doubt you can give a explanation for that phrase other then it was love. Demelza once thought the two French fellows were the most handsome men she ever met, but she wasn't in lust with them. As for getting over Hugh quickly...IDK think he remain in her thoughts for the rest of her life, thus the conversation with Clowance. However she did have more immediate ( if you consider the time spent away by Ross as immediate) things to consider and talking about Hugh was a subject she would rather avoid , especially since it was null and void and didn't serve any useful purpose for her, in fact quiet the opposite. She wasn't looking for a affair, it happened but knew it was actually a non factor for her given his death and all LOL.
As for the three month of not trying to hook up with Hugh let me give you and Ken this tid bit from the four swans:

Armitage shook his head. ‘Much as it would pleasure me, it may be two years before I am in England again.’

Graham, Winston. The Four Swans: A Novel of Cornwall, 1795-1797 (Poldark) (p. 229). St. Martin's Press. Kindle Edition.

When your in the navy at that time period you can be away for a long time, three months is nothing. That three months of being with out contact means squat other then that's the nature of Hughes career.
Lets talk about her not fretting for Hugh...he's dead no need to fret is there? More worried about her husband who she loves makes sense does it not?
Then the odd comment about not loving Ross less because of Hugh. Why would it? She loves Drake more then Sam, but it doesn't affect her feelings for Sam. they are what they are. One can love one parent more then the other, but how you feel about them is how you feel about them. Your feeling love for one doesn't affect your feelings towards the other.
There was a lot more then simple physical attraction going on between Delmelza and Hugh. She enjoyed his company, his conversations and so much more. Take the two person conversation for example ( true she had too much port which led to loose lips).

Someone who could laugh with him, talk with him, flirt with him maybe, go off with him, ride, swim, talk, without feeling I was being disloyal to the man I really and truly and absolutely love.’

Sounds like someone she wants to date, doesn't it?

Lets face facts it wasn't just a physical attraction, it was much more. Didn't mean she didn't love Ross, didn't mean she loved Hugh more then Ross, but for sure she had feelings of love for Hugh and that was cemented when they made love. It was also a situation when both felt some guilt for doing a good man wrong, thus the fleeing from the scene of the crime for both and the time lapse of no contact was a bit due to Hugh being in the navy and not wanting to face the crime by both.


message 45: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Harold wrote: " thus the fleeing from the scene of the crime for both and the time lapse of no contact was a bit due to Hugh being in the navy and not wanting to face the crime by both. ..."
Harold, I wasn't quite sure what you meant here..... Hugh's navy days were behind him before the adultery. I do think Hugh felt some quilt because he was too embarrassed to stay to dinner and possibly see Ross.
As far as the three months after the tryst, I think it's odd if Demelza truly did love Hugh that she didn't make more of an effort to see him or have a 2'd go at paradise. She flatly told Hugh she would see him "for a long time"..... those are not the words of a "love sick" woman. As she looked back on the events of Tuesday she considered her actions "not quite creditable".... Surly if she "loved" Hugh she would not have questioned her actions, she would have known why she surrendered.......... She found the physical act no different than she's know before, so I guess the sex did not make the earth shake, and I don't think Demelza was trying to cement their relationship by surrendering to his demands. If she did feel a deep and abiding love for the boy, why did she continue to rebuke Hugh at Seal Hole and repeatedly ask to go home???
I think there were things about Hugh she loved.... she loved his blind devotion and attention.... she loved his poems.... she loved the fact a man of his class would find her interesting.... But I don't think she was ever "In Love" with Hugh. There's no way she would have sex ONCE and not want to see him again or talk about it... Women aren't wired that way. If she was "In Love" with Hugh she wouldn't have spent sleepless nights wondering why she did it.


message 46: by Harold (last edited Apr 08, 2018 06:43AM) (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments Oh had to back and read, Hugh had told Demelza he had been discharged from the service on the way to rowing out to the island..
Not wanting to see him for a long time, doesn’t mean she didn’t love him. It meant she wanted to stay married to Ross and raise their children together. I sure they ( Demelza and Hugh) both felt odd about what just happened, guilt was what they both felt and in order to keep this a secret, a separation for a time was needed and desired. Ross was aware of the attraction they had for each other, so Demelza won’t want to raise suspicion and questions by trying to make up a reason for meeting Hugh any time soon. Last thing she wanted was to answer questions about her and Hugh from Ross.
All this doesn’t mean she doesn’t love Hugh, he has come into her heart, but she doesn’t love him in the exact way she loves Ross, just as one can love your siblings, but not exactly in the same way.


message 47: by Ken (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Harold wrote: "Oh had to back and read, Hugh had told Demelza he had been discharged from the service on the way to rowing out to the island..
Not wanting to see him for a long time, doesn’t mean she didn’t love..."

Harold, it appears we are debating the semantics of the word "love".... Like I said D does love things about Hugh, he's charming to her as he betrays his friend and savior. I just don't see it as the earth shattering, can't breath, miserable when your apart emotion I associate with being "In Love". With Demelza it was a reluctant love.
The first of the 2 times she saw him in the 3 months following the adultery she was with Caroline and Dwight. Other than the greeting at the door they had no interaction other than Hugh's boast he'd achieved a lot this summer, which made Demelza very uncomfortable and she change the subject. They were not the madly "in love" couple that couldn't keep their hands off each other. This just doesn't fit my description of being in love. I don't even think Hugh fits what I think is true love..... He too is in lust and has a strong infatuation with Demelza, who he put on a pedestal as the perfect woman.

If Hugh truly loved Demelza he would not have risk her marriage unless he was willing to make a commitment. Just how did he see this romance progressing? Before you say he didn't put her marriage at risk, what about the poem 3 days later that should have been burnt? That poem became the reason for Ross and Demelza's estrangement......... I'm not even going into the risk of pregnancy. Above all else Hugh was obsessed with the conquest, which is why I consider him "the snake".

Her comment that it was unlikely to recure, tells me she was not "In Love", and as Bernie pointed out there is no mention of her morning Hugh's death other than the immediate reaction to the news. Looking back on that Tuesday a year later, she thought about Hugh's love for her and her surrender..... "Well, that was gone forever, and she did not want it back, with its pulling at her heartstrings, the agony of divided loyalties." Considering telling Verity she describe her feelings as "terrible attraction" (not exactly the thoughts a woman "In Love" would have)

I think Demelza did love Hugh as a sibling. Of all the excuses she considered only "physical attraction" remained, not love. In fact she didn't even consider "love" as a possible excuse for what was inexcusable.
Her surrender was a gift of compassion, fueled by lust and enabled by opportunity. At least that's the way I see it.


message 48: by Val (new)

Val Ivey | 50 comments Bernie wrote: That's not the way a woman "In love" would act. Harold wrote: Don't know why your so hung up on Demelza not actually using the word love

Bernie I enjoyed your treatise and concur. I believe that when someone’s mind is made that opposes another’s view, you can only agree to disagree. Here’s what I want to say in regard to the two views.

To ‘love’ someone, or to BE “in-love” with someone, are two entirely different states of emotion. I believe she pitied Hugh and in a less intense form loved Hugh and cared for Hugh. She without a doubt, felt affection for Hugh, but was not ‘in-love’ with him.

The subtext of her self conversation in TFS regarding the Tuesday “event,” speaks loudly of this. She did not define the ‘event’ as an occurrence that was “likely to happen again.” When you are ‘in-love’ with someone you can’t wait until the physical act happens again. The sooner the better! You only anticipate the excitement of your next interlude. This happenstance was “unattached” to any future. And was not ‘likely to recur.”

The scenario she contextualized was not one of being “in-love” with Hugh. Being “in-love” is never between a “nameless man and nameless woman.” As long as the incident could be held in isolation, unseen and unexpressed she could live with it. She could not live with it if Ross found out about it. Her life would be “laid to waste.” She knew that Ross already struggled with the emotional betrayal, she could not harm him any more by admitting a sexual betrayal.


message 49: by Harold (new)

Harold Seattle | 73 comments We are quibbling over semantics. As for as I'm concerned when she says Hugh entered her heart where once there was only Ross, that's = loving Hugh. It doesn't mean she loves Hugh as much as she loves Ross and she wants her marriage and family. You seem to think that means she doesn't love Hugh. You and Bernie keep brushing off her reaction upon hearing of Hugh's death as not important. To me that reaction to his death was the reason for the estrangement, not the poem, although the poem added to it.

Reluctant love is a good way to put it IMO, because think that is what it was. As for Hugh, don't think he really knows what love is and yes he's a snake.


message 50: by Ken (last edited Apr 08, 2018 08:33AM) (new)

Ken Cummins | 353 comments Harold wrote: "We are quibbling over semantics. As for as I'm concerned when she says Hugh entered her heart where once there was only Ross, that's = loving Hugh. It doesn't mean she loves Hugh as much as she lov..."
Haha... semantics indeed..... I don't think I ever said she doesn't love Hugh, I just maintain she wasn't "In Love"... to me there's a huge difference.
I do disagree about your statement that her reaction to Hugh's death was the reason for the estrangement..... Ross already made that decision when he read the poem and saw her reaction at the sick bed. In fact he was elected MP the day he got the news, which was the day after his death. It was a done deal when he saw Demelza return from Caroline's. Now if you meant Ross's reaction to D at the sick bed, then yes that was certainly a contributing factor. I still weight the poem a little heaver, because it gave context to her reaction..... Demelza would grieve at any "sick bed"


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