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Discipleship > Calvinism vs. Arminianism

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message 1: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Personally, I am neither. I am a Bible believer , and what God's Word says... is what I believe.

My concern is when people perform all kinds of pseudo-spiritual mental gymnastics to make clear Scriptures say almost the opposite of what they actually say.

For example:

Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."

2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ."

John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me ."

Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

etc. etc. etc.
__________________________________________

Please quote Scripture that clearly states salvation is NOT legitimately offered and available to ALL


message 2: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Isaiah 53:6 - "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all ."
__________________________________

1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
__________________________________

1 Timothy 2:3-6

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time.


message 3: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Matthew 18:14 - "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish ."
__________________________________

John 1:7 - "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe ."
__________________________________

John 1:29 - "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world ."


message 4: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
_____________________________________

John 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe , and who it was that would betray Him.

65 And He was saying, “ For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father .”


message 5: by Mickey (new)

Mickey Mullen (mrmullenvcncom) | 614 comments 1 Robert; Jesus spoke allegorically or in parables. Paul who you say is the Word of God spoke plainly that would get my marbles turning. The seven churches in revelation, why does it repeatedly say those that overcometh, overcometh from what? Wouldn't it be overcometh from the false doctrine in side the churches or the corner bar?
John 6:65 There is a lot of difference of being drawn, and "been granted. 6:44 God made my life hell on this earth, that is being drawn. 64 It reads many are called but few chosen. Not one word is being said about all the people with tattooes will God chose them? Even if they are called? John 1:29 Salvation is a individual thing, Jesus never took away all the sin in the world.
1:7 All men has the opportunity, but don't you have to be one of the chosen, drawn, and the bottom line, received the ,"tree of life." I received the tree of life 12/12/1970 at 01 am. Revelation 2:7; born again 12/1/1968 at 9pm and 12/30 1968 at 6:30 am.
St Matthew 18:14 It's not the will but most all will perish. How many children were saved in the flood of Noah? or Sodom, or in the last day how many children is going to be saved. children are no better or worse off then the rest of us. or show me a verse. They are born liers. Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
God created the Spirit in Genesis, The Holy Ghost, and Jesus was the Word that was made flesh when the time was right, so the God head is, "quadruple." God never died on the cross but it was His Son.


message 6: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Mickey wrote: "1 Robert; Jesus spoke allegorically or in parables. Paul who you say is the Word of God spoke plainly that would get my marbles turning. The seven churches in revelation, why does it repeatedly say..."

My response: Thanks for your OPINION; however, coming from a guy who rejects Jesus and claims to be Elijah... you cannot be taken seriously.


message 7: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Matthew 11:28 - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."


message 8: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
John 16:30 - "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things , and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God."

John 18:4 - "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?"

John 21:17 - "He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things ; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."


message 9: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Matthew 11
25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;


message 10: by Robert (last edited Mar 19, 2018 03:23PM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Matthew 11
25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;"


My response: I have quoted more than 20 verses IN CONTEXT !

You have quoted ONE verse OUT OF CONTEXT!

But I give you credit. That is ONE verse more than you normally quote!


message 11: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Why do you assume yours were in context and mine weren't? You didn't explain them or discuss their setting.

Mine was in reference to yours. You just didn't understand how they were connected. You were too busy being emotional once again.

But I proved you wrong. You can't just post verses. That wasn't good enough for you even.


message 12: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Why do you assume yours were in context and mine weren't? You didn't explain them or discuss their setting..."

My response: All of mine were in reference to God's all inclusive love and offer of salvation to whosoever will .

In Matthew chapter 11, Jesus was answering the question of two disciples of John the Baptist, who were wondering if He was the Christ.

CONTEXT IS CRITICAL!

But the opinions of men, without Scriptural support are useless!


message 13: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Mine were essential to the conversation at large. How did you miss that?


message 14: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle See - just posting verses is often meaningless to prove a point.

You need to throw an opinion with them. Or Robert gets confused and needs more clarity. Which is okay.


message 15: by Robert (last edited Mar 20, 2018 06:21AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Online definition:

Eisegesis is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text . This is commonly referred to as reading into the text .

So when the text says ALL ... eisegesis figures out a way for the text to NOT mean ALL .
:-(
',
',
',


message 16: by Robert (last edited Mar 20, 2018 06:24AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Mine were essential to the conversation at large. How did you miss that?"

My response: Yours is eisegesis . Taken out of the context (Jesus answering John's disciples questions about if He is the Christ) and vainly attempted to apply it to my understanding for direct Scripture.


message 17: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "See - just posting verses is often meaningless to prove a point. You need to throw an opinion with them. Or Robert gets confused and needs more clarity. Which is okay."

My response: Sorry Rod, Scripture is NEVER meaningless!


message 18: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle My verse: things are hidden by God, only revealed when HE chooses. Often not revealed at all.

You claim God is drawing ALL people for salvation.

You're kind of slow buddy. Sheesh!!


message 19: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
The problem for you is that the Bible does NOT support your eisegetically desired outcomes... so you TRASH Scripture quoting.


message 20: by Robert (last edited Mar 20, 2018 06:28AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "My verse: things are hidden by God, only revealed when HE chooses. Often not revealed at all. You claim God is drawing ALL people for salvation..."

My response: Yet another attempt to divert attention... You posted ONE VERSE out of context ...

I posted MORE THAN 20 VERSES in context!


message 21: by Robert (last edited Mar 20, 2018 06:44AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "You claim God is drawing ALL people for salvation."

My response: Rod, you give me WAY TOO MUCH credit. I did NOT make any such claim... I QUOTED GOD !
_____________________________________

Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."
__________

2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ."
__________

John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me ."
__________

Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
__________

Isaiah 53:6 - "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all ."
__________

1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
__________

1 Timothy 2:3-6

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time.
__________

Matthew 18:14 - "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
__________

John 1:7 - "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe ."
__________

John 1:29 - "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world ."
__________

Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
__________

Matthew 11:28 - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."


message 22: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I'm sorry that your context is so very very small. Of course YOUR bible means exactly what you want it to mean, when you play the game by your rules.

My bible has God killing millions of people and sorting the wise of mankind from His humble children - as well as hiding truth. And yet you poorly claim God is drawing everyone for salvation. (By misusing a few words).

Robert you need to deal with the ENTIRE bible. Don't cherry pick.


message 23: by Robert (last edited Mar 20, 2018 06:55AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "I'm sorry that your context is so very very small. Of course YOUR bible means exactly what you want it to mean, when you play the game by your rules..."

My response: LOL!!!!! I QUOTED THE BIBLE and you claim that it means what I WANT it to mean...

...you do NOT QUOTE the Bible... and give YOUR OPINION... and that is NOT saying what YOU WANT!

LOL!!!!! How can you not see the amazing HYPOCRISY?
_____________________

You accuse me of cherry picking when I quote so many verses... and you quote NONE!

At least I am picking the cherries... all you are doing is giving the pits of your personal opinions.


message 24: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "I'm sorry that your context is so very very small..."

My response: Here is a complete list of Rod's quoted context:
____________________

Matthew 11
25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
____________________

Below is a partial list of what Rod calls my small context:
____________________

Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."
__________

2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ."
__________

John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me ."
__________

Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
__________

Isaiah 53:6 - "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all ."
__________

1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
__________

1 Timothy 2:3-6

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time.
__________

Matthew 18:14 - "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
__________

John 1:7 - "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe ."
__________

John 1:29 - "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world ."
__________

Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
__________

Matthew 11:28 - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."


message 25: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle You're jumping to quick conclusions with all of your verses. Similar to when people quote 30 verses to prove that God wants us all to be Vegans or pacifists.
Amount proves nothing - one verse can undo all of them.


message 26: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "You're jumping to quick conclusions with all of your verses. Similar to when people quote 30 verses to prove that God wants us all to be Vegans or pacifists.
Amount proves nothing - one verse can ..."


My response: NOPE! I would be jumping to conclusions... if I agreed with you and your NON-BIBLE opinions.


message 27: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Amount proves nothing - one verse can undo all of them..."

My response: Pitiful! You proclaim that God's Word contradicts itself! It does NOT... and one verse NEVER changes the others.

That is why you CANNOT quote even ONE verse where God says that He does NOT legitimately offer salvation to EVERYONE.

QUOTE ONE VERSE that states God offers salvation only to a few.


message 28: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I have many times in the past. You simply don't want to comprehend them. Waste of my time.

If someone else is interested- then I'll start posting.


message 29: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "I have many times in the past. You simply don't want to comprehend them. Waste of my time.

If someone else is interested- then I'll start posting."


My response: Nice diversion. Of course the TRUTH is you have NEVER quoted any such verse... since NONE exist.


message 30: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Your just slow. And like God says, "some things are hidden from the wise."

As always, I have no desire to chat with you. But if anyone else is interested.


message 31: by Robert (last edited Mar 20, 2018 08:37AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Your just slow. And like God says, "some things are hidden from the wise."

As always, I have no desire to chat with you. But if anyone else is interested."


My response: Nice diversion. Of course the TRUTH is you have NEVER quoted any such verse... since NONE exist.

It is very difficult to oppose the clearly quoted and abundant Word of God, with nothing more than your opinions.


message 32: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Similar to trying to convince a Mormon, J.W., or Muslim while using 100's of bible verses. Mostly useless.

But for someone interested? That's a joy.


message 33: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Similar to trying to convince a Mormon, J.W., or Muslim while using 100's of bible verses. Mostly useless."

My response: Mormons and JWs approach the Bible the same way as you do. They respond to directly quoted Bible verses by adding tons of private interpretations and personal commentary , like you do!


message 34: by Robert (last edited Mar 20, 2018 11:09AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
John 20:28 (from the NWT, JW translation of the Bible)

John 20:28 - "In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”

The JWs do NOT let this verse stand on what it says, but rather, like you, they make the Bible says something other than what is clearly stated. Here is some of what the JWs say to deny that Jesus is God. (Very similar to the way that you deny that God offers salvation to everyone.)

JW twisting of John 20:28

"Some scholars view this expression as an exclamation of astonishment spoken to Jesus but actually directed to God, his Father. Others claim that the original Greek requires that the words be viewed as being directed to Jesus. Even if this is so, the intent of the expression “my Lord and my God” is best understood in the context of the rest of the inspired Scriptures."


message 35: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
CULTS never let the Word of God stand on its own!

TRUE BELIEVERS always search the Scriptures to validate and uphold sound doctrine.


message 36: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
John 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe , and who it was that would betray Him.

65 And He was saying, “ For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father .”
_______________________________________

Observations:
* vs. 64 - some did not believe
* vs. 64 - Jesus knew from the beginning who they were
* vs. 65 - Because Jesus knew (i.e. "for this reason")...
* vs. 65 - He was able to say "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father"

Crystal clear! God's election is based on the foreknowledge of who would or would not believe in Jesus .


message 37: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Crystal clear: God's foreknowledge and election is based on God the Father's plan and sovereign will.


message 38: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Crystal clear: God's foreknowledge and election is based on God the Father's plan and sovereign will."

My response: Of course you offer NO BIBLE VERSES to support YOUR OPINION.

Got Scripture?


message 39: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Why do you doubt the "granted from the father" part?


message 40: by Robert (last edited Mar 21, 2018 05:48AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Why do you doubt the "granted from the father" part?"

My response: I don't! Why do you REJECT the "For this reason" part?

I embrace ALL the passage... you apparently only embrace the parts you like.

it has been granted of the Father... FOR THE STATED REASON!


message 41: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Yes, Jesus knew from the beginning: because of the Fathers plan.

God is not a prisoner to time or fait, or our choices. His plan works perfectly.


message 42: by Robert (last edited Mar 21, 2018 06:22AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Yes, Jesus knew from the beginning: because of the Fathers plan.

God is not a prisoner to time or fait, or our choices. His plan works perfectly."


My response: Thanks for your OPINION. Where does the Bible say that Jesus knew "because of the Fathers plan"?

What the Bible DOES SAY is that Jesus knew who believed or not.

I will stick with the Word of God over yours.

Again... NO SCRIPTURE... just your OPINIONS .

(I have quoted more than 20 Bible verses in this discussion so far. Rod has quoted ONE!)


message 43: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "God is not a prisoner to time or fait, or our choices. His plan works perfectly."

My response: So true! Thus when God GIVES people freewill... His plans work perfectly!
_________________________

Leviticus 22:21 - "And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein."


message 44: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Yes, that freely offered lamb better be perfect


message 45: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Yes, that freely offered lamb better be perfect"

FREE WILL GIVEN BY GOD

Please QUOTE ONE verse that says God FORCES His Will on people .

(I have quoted more than 20 Bible verses in this discussion so far. Rod has quoted ONE!)


message 46: by Robert (last edited Mar 21, 2018 07:33AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Yes, that freely offered lamb better be perfect"

Rom 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

The definition of the words GOD CHOSE ...

shall call upon = Strong's G1941 - epikaleō - "ἐπικαλέομαι epikaléomai, ep-ee-kal-eh'-om-ahee... to entitle ..."

"to put a name upon, to surname - to permit one's self to be surnamed - to be named after someone - to invoke - to call upon for one's self, in one's behalf "

Note: God CHOSE to use this volitional word!


message 47: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Don't put the cart before the horse.


message 48: by Robert (last edited Mar 21, 2018 10:40AM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1764 comments Mod
Rod wrote: "Don't put the cart before the horse."

My response: That is NOT a Bible quote... just another OPINION.

Here is TRUTH from the Word of God...

Rom 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

The definition of the words GOD CHOSE ...

shall call upon = Strong's G1941 - epikaleō - "ἐπικαλέομαι epikaléomai, ep-ee-kal-eh'-om-ahee... to entitle ..."

"to put a name upon, to surname - to permit one's self to be surnamed - to be named after someone - to invoke - to call upon for one's self, in one's behalf "

Note: God CHOSE to use this volitional word!


message 49: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Yes, whosoever: Greek and Jews.

Romans 13
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.


message 50: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Whenever you read or quote Romans: always have proper context

Romans 1
7 To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


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