Christian Readers discussion
Discipleship
>
Calvinism vs. Arminianism
Mod
__________________________________
1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
__________________________________
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time.
Mod
__________________________________
John 1:7 - "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe ."
__________________________________
John 1:29 - "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world ."
Mod
_____________________________________
John 6:64-65
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe , and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “ For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father .”
1 Robert; Jesus spoke allegorically or in parables. Paul who you say is the Word of God spoke plainly that would get my marbles turning. The seven churches in revelation, why does it repeatedly say those that overcometh, overcometh from what? Wouldn't it be overcometh from the false doctrine in side the churches or the corner bar? John 6:65 There is a lot of difference of being drawn, and "been granted. 6:44 God made my life hell on this earth, that is being drawn. 64 It reads many are called but few chosen. Not one word is being said about all the people with tattooes will God chose them? Even if they are called? John 1:29 Salvation is a individual thing, Jesus never took away all the sin in the world.
1:7 All men has the opportunity, but don't you have to be one of the chosen, drawn, and the bottom line, received the ,"tree of life." I received the tree of life 12/12/1970 at 01 am. Revelation 2:7; born again 12/1/1968 at 9pm and 12/30 1968 at 6:30 am.
St Matthew 18:14 It's not the will but most all will perish. How many children were saved in the flood of Noah? or Sodom, or in the last day how many children is going to be saved. children are no better or worse off then the rest of us. or show me a verse. They are born liers. Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
God created the Spirit in Genesis, The Holy Ghost, and Jesus was the Word that was made flesh when the time was right, so the God head is, "quadruple." God never died on the cross but it was His Son.
Mod
My response: Thanks for your OPINION; however, coming from a guy who rejects Jesus and claims to be Elijah... you cannot be taken seriously.
Mod
Matthew 11:28 - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
Mod
John 18:4 - "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?"
John 21:17 - "He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things ; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."
Matthew 1125 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mod
25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;"
My response: I have quoted more than 20 verses IN CONTEXT !
You have quoted ONE verse OUT OF CONTEXT!
But I give you credit. That is ONE verse more than you normally quote!
Why do you assume yours were in context and mine weren't? You didn't explain them or discuss their setting. Mine was in reference to yours. You just didn't understand how they were connected. You were too busy being emotional once again.
But I proved you wrong. You can't just post verses. That wasn't good enough for you even.
Mod
My response: All of mine were in reference to God's all inclusive love and offer of salvation to whosoever will .
In Matthew chapter 11, Jesus was answering the question of two disciples of John the Baptist, who were wondering if He was the Christ.
CONTEXT IS CRITICAL!
But the opinions of men, without Scriptural support are useless!
Mine were essential to the conversation at large. How did you miss that?
See - just posting verses is often meaningless to prove a point. You need to throw an opinion with them. Or Robert gets confused and needs more clarity. Which is okay.
Mod
Eisegesis is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text . This is commonly referred to as reading into the text .
So when the text says ALL ... eisegesis figures out a way for the text to NOT mean ALL .
:-(
',
',
',
Mod
My response: Yours is eisegesis . Taken out of the context (Jesus answering John's disciples questions about if He is the Christ) and vainly attempted to apply it to my understanding for direct Scripture.
Mod
My response: Sorry Rod, Scripture is NEVER meaningless!
My verse: things are hidden by God, only revealed when HE chooses. Often not revealed at all. You claim God is drawing ALL people for salvation.
You're kind of slow buddy. Sheesh!!
Mod
Mod
My response: Yet another attempt to divert attention... You posted ONE VERSE out of context ...
I posted MORE THAN 20 VERSES in context!
Mod
My response: Rod, you give me WAY TOO MUCH credit. I did NOT make any such claim... I QUOTED GOD !
_____________________________________
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."
__________
2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ."
__________
John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me ."
__________
Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
__________
Isaiah 53:6 - "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all ."
__________
1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
__________
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time.
__________
Matthew 18:14 - "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
__________
John 1:7 - "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe ."
__________
John 1:29 - "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world ."
__________
Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
__________
Matthew 11:28 - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
I'm sorry that your context is so very very small. Of course YOUR bible means exactly what you want it to mean, when you play the game by your rules.My bible has God killing millions of people and sorting the wise of mankind from His humble children - as well as hiding truth. And yet you poorly claim God is drawing everyone for salvation. (By misusing a few words).
Robert you need to deal with the ENTIRE bible. Don't cherry pick.
Mod
My response: LOL!!!!! I QUOTED THE BIBLE and you claim that it means what I WANT it to mean...
...you do NOT QUOTE the Bible... and give YOUR OPINION... and that is NOT saying what YOU WANT!
LOL!!!!! How can you not see the amazing HYPOCRISY?
_____________________
You accuse me of cherry picking when I quote so many verses... and you quote NONE!
At least I am picking the cherries... all you are doing is giving the pits of your personal opinions.
Mod
My response: Here is a complete list of Rod's quoted context:
____________________
Matthew 11
25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
____________________
Below is a partial list of what Rod calls my small context:
____________________
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."
__________
2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ."
__________
John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me ."
__________
Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
__________
Isaiah 53:6 - "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all ."
__________
1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ."
__________
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time.
__________
Matthew 18:14 - "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
__________
John 1:7 - "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe ."
__________
John 1:29 - "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world ."
__________
Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
__________
Matthew 11:28 - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
You're jumping to quick conclusions with all of your verses. Similar to when people quote 30 verses to prove that God wants us all to be Vegans or pacifists. Amount proves nothing - one verse can undo all of them.
Mod
Amount proves nothing - one verse can ..."
My response: NOPE! I would be jumping to conclusions... if I agreed with you and your NON-BIBLE opinions.
Mod
My response: Pitiful! You proclaim that God's Word contradicts itself! It does NOT... and one verse NEVER changes the others.
That is why you CANNOT quote even ONE verse where God says that He does NOT legitimately offer salvation to EVERYONE.
QUOTE ONE VERSE that states God offers salvation only to a few.
I have many times in the past. You simply don't want to comprehend them. Waste of my time.If someone else is interested- then I'll start posting.
Mod
If someone else is interested- then I'll start posting."
My response: Nice diversion. Of course the TRUTH is you have NEVER quoted any such verse... since NONE exist.
Your just slow. And like God says, "some things are hidden from the wise."As always, I have no desire to chat with you. But if anyone else is interested.
Mod
As always, I have no desire to chat with you. But if anyone else is interested."
My response: Nice diversion. Of course the TRUTH is you have NEVER quoted any such verse... since NONE exist.
It is very difficult to oppose the clearly quoted and abundant Word of God, with nothing more than your opinions.
Similar to trying to convince a Mormon, J.W., or Muslim while using 100's of bible verses. Mostly useless.But for someone interested? That's a joy.
Mod
My response: Mormons and JWs approach the Bible the same way as you do. They respond to directly quoted Bible verses by adding tons of private interpretations and personal commentary , like you do!
Mod
John 20:28 - "In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”
The JWs do NOT let this verse stand on what it says, but rather, like you, they make the Bible says something other than what is clearly stated. Here is some of what the JWs say to deny that Jesus is God. (Very similar to the way that you deny that God offers salvation to everyone.)
JW twisting of John 20:28
"Some scholars view this expression as an exclamation of astonishment spoken to Jesus but actually directed to God, his Father. Others claim that the original Greek requires that the words be viewed as being directed to Jesus. Even if this is so, the intent of the expression “my Lord and my God” is best understood in the context of the rest of the inspired Scriptures."
Mod
TRUE BELIEVERS always search the Scriptures to validate and uphold sound doctrine.
Mod
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe , and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “ For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father .”
_______________________________________
Observations:
* vs. 64 - some did not believe
* vs. 64 - Jesus knew from the beginning who they were
* vs. 65 - Because Jesus knew (i.e. "for this reason")...
* vs. 65 - He was able to say "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father"
Crystal clear! God's election is based on the foreknowledge of who would or would not believe in Jesus .
Crystal clear: God's foreknowledge and election is based on God the Father's plan and sovereign will.
Mod
My response: Of course you offer NO BIBLE VERSES to support YOUR OPINION.
Got Scripture?
Why do you doubt the "granted from the father" part?
Mod
My response: I don't! Why do you REJECT the "For this reason" part?
I embrace ALL the passage... you apparently only embrace the parts you like.
it has been granted of the Father... FOR THE STATED REASON!
Yes, Jesus knew from the beginning: because of the Fathers plan. God is not a prisoner to time or fait, or our choices. His plan works perfectly.
Mod
God is not a prisoner to time or fait, or our choices. His plan works perfectly."
My response: Thanks for your OPINION. Where does the Bible say that Jesus knew "because of the Fathers plan"?
What the Bible DOES SAY is that Jesus knew who believed or not.
I will stick with the Word of God over yours.
Again... NO SCRIPTURE... just your OPINIONS .
(I have quoted more than 20 Bible verses in this discussion so far. Rod has quoted ONE!)
Mod
My response: So true! Thus when God GIVES people freewill... His plans work perfectly!
_________________________
Leviticus 22:21 - "And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein."
Yes, that freely offered lamb better be perfect
Mod
FREE WILL GIVEN BY GOD
Please QUOTE ONE verse that says God FORCES His Will on people .
(I have quoted more than 20 Bible verses in this discussion so far. Rod has quoted ONE!)
Mod
Rom 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
The definition of the words GOD CHOSE ...
shall call upon = Strong's G1941 - epikaleō - "ἐπικαλέομαι epikaléomai, ep-ee-kal-eh'-om-ahee... to entitle ..."
"to put a name upon, to surname - to permit one's self to be surnamed - to be named after someone - to invoke - to call upon for one's self, in one's behalf "
Note: God CHOSE to use this volitional word!
Mod
My response: That is NOT a Bible quote... just another OPINION.
Here is TRUTH from the Word of God...
Rom 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
The definition of the words GOD CHOSE ...
shall call upon = Strong's G1941 - epikaleō - "ἐπικαλέομαι epikaléomai, ep-ee-kal-eh'-om-ahee... to entitle ..."
"to put a name upon, to surname - to permit one's self to be surnamed - to be named after someone - to invoke - to call upon for one's self, in one's behalf "
Note: God CHOSE to use this volitional word!
Yes, whosoever: Greek and Jews.Romans 13
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Whenever you read or quote Romans: always have proper contextRomans 1
7 To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
My concern is when people perform all kinds of pseudo-spiritual mental gymnastics to make clear Scriptures say almost the opposite of what they actually say.
For example:
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."
2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ."
John 12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me ."
Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
etc. etc. etc.
__________________________________________
Please quote Scripture that clearly states salvation is NOT legitimately offered and available to ALL