Our Shared Shelf discussion
Intersectional Feminism
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Self-made Businesswomen..What are the obstacles?
Mod
1) You'll find that most businesses that start their own company are aided by family - male or female led. It takes capital to start a business and cheap labor. And the easiest way to get either is to get help from family.
But to say they are actually in charge? Could you give me 5 examples of women run businesses which have men in charge?
2) At least here in the States with both Puritanical and Victorian standards most women didn't run businesses. They heiresses and rich elite became more philanthropist in nature as it would have been seen better than actually working. And those who didn't have the cash joined the approved professions: teaching/ governess if you were higher class, factory work/ prostitution if you were lower, and nurses somewhere in between. That is if you didn't join a nunery.
3) Ok so flash forward to the point where it society finally accepts women working AND offers them educational opportunities AND they have capital to start their own business... And you get to somewhere in the 70s/ 80s where it's more common than your extraordinary CJ Walkers to see women in charge and in CEO positions.
But now you have to deal with hidden issues.
- Societal Demands:
-- Men taking orders from a woman
-- A woman's place is at home or rearing children vs working
-- the concern of what happens when she gets her period
-- the shame ( or lack) of child care.
- Professional Problems
-- Hiring women into a "male" industry.
-- Feminization of an industry -i.e. lower pay because it's a female job.
-- Lack of mentors / opportunities for promotions
-- Sexual Harrasment training and potential lawsuits
-- Poor negotiation skills
-- Inability to take extra shifts / or off hour shifts as women tend to be the primary care giver to children or elderly family members
Just to name a few
Does that help answer your question?
Pam wrote: "..."In my country to begin with, in the Chamber of commerce, they started an organization a long time ago called “ Businessmen ‘s organization for aiding the youth in small projects” .They did not say Businessmen and women. That would give you an idea about the situation in Egypt..
So considering what you said..ya..tell me about it!!
On the other hand, I’m actually studying the German language, so you get to study both the language and the culture. So, in Germany, it’s quite common for a woman to say “ Mein Mann kummert sich um unsere kinder” dass ist nicht ungewhonlich …its quite normal for a man to take the house duties and take care of the children as long as the woman is providing a better life standard…
So this kind of mutual understanding would solve a lot of your mentioned obstacles
What actually grabbed my attention here are your words:
-- Hiring women into a "male" industry.
-- Feminization of an industry -i.e. lower pay because it's a female job.
-- Lack of mentors / opportunities for promotions
-- Sexual Harrasment training and potential lawsuits
Let’s have an example. In Egypt it is a settled thought that all medical “implants” must be imported due to poor manufacturing skills. After the economic crisis all implants became unacceptably expensive and for some people who are in urgent need even out of reach. So I said, what if I would change the concept, start by myself and manufacture high standard Egyptian medical implants even better that the imported ones.I am actually starting with intragstric balloons.
My point is, based on the examples you gave..as a solution..what if “philanthropist “woman..who are heiresses and rich elite in the States..would focus more on changing the concept of what you called “male” industry to sort of a female alternative industry?
Should I describe more or did you catch my point?
Lastly, What do you mean by poor negotiation skill?
Well, i'm from germany and while it's true that now more men are caring for children, it's still not really common. In the majority of cases women will do more and stay at home longer (take sick days when the child is sick). There was a nice video about it where they asked people working in the Bundestag about who cares for the children.It's still not 50/50, so women will have to shoulder more of the work. Also there are more single women with children than men (because judges tend to give custody to mothers) and as a single parent you have more obstacles.
But even in germany it depends on where you come from (east/west) and what social class you were born into.
I think we are on the same page Michaela as I said as long as the women are providing a better life standard.But what I noticed that women always keep "nagging" about childcare and that they always or couldn't achieve what they want because they had to look after or raise a child.
But Nowadays, even in series like "Grey's anatomy" you find a nursery room so that male and female doctors whatever their relationship statuses are , would not only do their job perfectly but also come and check on their children..
And Since there are Nurseries in every hospital , institute and governmental buildinging , at least in the US and Europe, and there are also Nursery schools all year long all over the world at the moment, Women should stand up, stop nagging and show us what they are really made of when it comes to being businesswomen...
What do you think?
Mod
What do you think? "
1) Grey's anatomy is fictional
2) Most places don't offer childcare like that. I work for a fortune 250 company. We do not yet have an in house daycare center. Nor cover extra pay or rebates or employee price deals on the like yet
3) The cost is still very high that parents still find that it costs more to keep a child in day care than it does to have a spouse working. And that doesn't look to change anytime soon.
4) Here in the states we don't have as long as paternity or maternity leave as in the EU. Which we are still fighting for
So I would so there is still plenty of work to be done to move forward with implementing better child care services.
I'm child free by choice because I prefer my career. And fortunately I am in a position to do so. But many mothers don't have that luxury.
Mod
-- Hiring women into a "male" industry.
-- Feminization of an industry -i.e. lower pay because it's a female job.
-- Lack of mentors / opportunities for promotions
-- Sexual Harrasment training and potential lawsuits
Let’s have an example. In Egypt it is a settled thought that all medical “implants” must be imported due to poor manufacturing skills. After the economic crisis all implants became unacceptably expensive and for some people who are in urgent need even out of reach. So I said, what if I would change the concept, start by myself and manufacture high standard Egyptian medical implants even better that the imported ones.I am actually starting with intragstric balloons.
My point is, based on the examples you gave..as a solution..what if “philanthropist “woman..who are heiresses and rich elite in the States..would focus more on changing the concept of what you called “male” industry to sort of a female alternative industry?.."
Eh, misunderstanding. These heiress were back on the late 19th/ early 20th century. The point being, working was a luxury few could afford. And then those that could still faced the stigma attached to working to the point where they started charities but weren't necessarily allowed to create businesses. ( Again some exceptions to this rule do exist).
As far as the later half of your statement male industry into female industry.
1) I work on the premise that industries aren't gendered. I personally don't believe that being in the medical or engineering field is a man's or a woman's "role".
2) That said, most do think that professions are gendered. And this goes beyond something like Steward vs Stewardess or Actor or Actress. I mean more like Doctor/Nurse. This isn't gendered, and yet more people will assume a doctor is a man while a nurse is a woman as that's how is has been collectively for ages. But the only difference is the amount of education one has and the duties they preform. A man can be a nurse as much as a woman can be a Doctor.
3) To say that we need to make a female alternative industry I find silly. The Oil and Gas Industry has to deal with the safe extraction of fossil fuels.And last I checked women and men tend to use the byproducts of this industry in the same fashion ( fuel, plastics, etc)
Could you give me an example of what you mean by female alternative industry? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you..
What I am suggesting, as we are in a feminism blog and at the moment we are talking about Businesswomen and want to set an example of women being as equal as men and also want to encourage businesswomen to motivate every other women to work and remove all the obstacles...What I am suggesting based on your examples is to find a Businesswomen who is also a feminist and convince her to make a new branch of her factory with only women working in it from A to Z with a nursery if this is your problem...and not even produce and sell their products locally but also export worldwide if they can with a stamp on everybox written on it 100% women made or encourage feminism...and that would encourage every other Businesswomen to do the same...and that would be a start to solve the main issue...
I have a friend working in Qatar and they have a nursery in the hospital...loolSo it's not fictional
If the women's main obstacle for the achievement of success and satisfaction is only the "nurseries"issue...there are fine women in any country's parliament that would gladly demand a fine nursery in every institute..These obstacles are irrelevant..
Well it's not like nurseries do all the work. I don't know how many firms in germany have in house daycare, i know nobody who has access to something like that, but here almost everyone gets a spot at kindergarden.But what when the child is sick? Who takes the child there in the morning? Who cooks meals after work, does the laundry and goes to play-dates. Studies show how these are mostly things women will do. Even if the relationship was 50/50 before the pregnancy, there is a tendency for this to shift after having a child. You can show that empirically.
So even if there was in-house daycare, there are more things women need to do additionally to their actual job without it being questioned.
Your post sounded a bit like "stop whining" to me, correct me if i misunderstood you. And i think stopping to complain about things that still go wrong, is not really the right way.
Two more things:1) i'd say no obstacle is irrelevant. Identifying the problem and a solution is not the same as implementing said solution. The world would be a much better place if it was so easy.
2) I think female-only departments would be a disaster. I do not want to live in a segregated world, where women are hired in certain departments and then men in other departments will see that as an excuse to hire more men. I'd hope we would get to the point where gender plays no role in the hiring process. And i think to get to that point there are two options, one would be a quota till bias against women lessens, the second would be new hiring methods that are anonymous. And i think both are hard to implement.
Mod
So it's not fictional"
Never said in house nurseries are fictional. Just Grey's anatomy. Please reread.
Mod
If we are equal, why don't business men provide this for their staff?
I'm not disagreeing- I think in house nurseries should be more prevelant. As I think longer paternity and maternity is important or the capability to work from home to address the needs that Michaela pointed out.
But if men also care about women and see themselves as equals, wouldn't they be listening to their workforce and establish it themselves?
Why don't more men in legislation push for policy to implement this new rule that every facility has a nursery or provides it for those who need it?
Pam wrote : " Why don't more men in legislation push for policy to implement this new rule that every facility has a nursery or provides I'd for those who need it? "That's the spirit..now we're talking!
Mod
Do you have something like this implemented in your business plan for bariatric supplies?
Pam wrote : " Mahmoud wrote: "Pam wrote : " That's the spirit..now we're talking"Do you have something like this implemented in your business plan for bariatric supplies?'
If I make a successful prototype before the beginning of ramadan(15th of May)...I think all my reps would be women..aged 25-35 because it is a settled tradition in the field for every company to have women as reps
And I only have distributor companies and I am sorry to say there in none founded by a woman..
Self-made Businesswomen....
What are the obstacles?
I am not sure if that's an interesting case study, but here is the story of Chiara Ferragni, an Italian fashion icon who makes 10 million $ a year. She is one of the most outstanding Italian women of our times.http://www.linkiesta.it/it/article/20...
10 m $ a year is a good sum of money....but there are some other men and women making 15 20 and even 100 m $ from a kind of work with similar lifestyle...But I will go along with you.. Chiara Ferragni...if she's happy with the 10m $ a year then fine...but what if she wants more.
.. .like 100m $ annually..but something is holding her back under the topic gender equality.What do you think her obstacles , as a successful Italian fashion icon are?what's holding her back?
Should it really be the goal for some people to get 100 millioms or more a year? Why isn't 10 enough? You won't have to work ever again after a year if you're clever.If a few persons get all the money, what's left for the rest? Just a thought when i read these capitalist ideas.
Why don't you think about working for a couple of years make 200M $ then not working for the rest of your life...and giving some of the rest of the money as charity or donationthis has nothing to do with capitalism!what's wrong with that?The topic is a little bit confusing..and thought provoking...think about the topic..I am talking about women who would start from scratch..to be tycoons after a decade or two...Self made...we don't see that happen quite often
Well, what would i do with my life when i'm not working? Work is a big part of life, because there you can get a lot of appreciation, you can experience how what you do has effects, etc. I think most people would be bored without something to do and travelling only helps for so long.So why not look for a job that makes happy instead of rich? Women should run businesses because it makes them happy and is fullfilling. Not because they can get so much money. So why would earning 100 millions be better than earning 10 million?
Also, i don't really think the American dream is the thing to aspire. Yeah, some people can make it from nothing to tycoon, but most would be happier to not have that hope and find more realistic goals.
Look michaela...you definitely have a point. But for me either men or women should not live their lives systematically only because this makes them happy..this is called being lazy..living your life systematically from my view isn't the reason why we were created from the start...I think each and everyone should have a positive effect on the society he or she is living in..and to set a goal to himself so that his work or accomplishments for his society or his country should be remembered for years to come after him...and this is what our children should be taught in schools...
I think the young children especially the girls are not given the motivation from their teachers psychologically that you are the next Hillary Clinton for example...and these young females become eventually mothers who reflect what they were raised on and taught...to their girls....and so on...
But to discuss your point Michaela even further, not everyone would succeed in making a huge difference or influence in or upon his/her society or maybe start their own work line of work and just don't meet his/her expectations .the majority would try and somehow would reach a dead end quite often..People should try to be able to offer their families the best financial support that would have an influence on their educational background for example..
Nevertheless if they tried and failed, in my religion it is said that whoever has the luxury of fulfilling his personal needs everyday.and has neither a disease nor an illness.living happily with his surroundings..is the same as someone who has the whole world in his hands...
So I totally understand your point...
I don't even think that you can equal "smartness" with economic benefit and "being successful" by making money, as Mahmoud is claiming here. The economic system is capitalism which makes a small minority of rich people - most of them men - much richer every day. And they get richer by exploiting the workers.If you are saying now this has something to do with "smartness" then you are insulting all the other people who are struggling every day to earn wage to make a living and who don't belong to the few in society who have the privilege of making profit and getting richer by leading a company. Those people are workers and they don't get rich - so equalling "smartness" with "making money and getting rich" is an insult to all those people who are workers and who actually are less rich but not less smart.
Sascha....I thank you so much for participating in the discussion..that means a lot to me...but saying that the rich men are exploiting their workers...that's a little bit harsh..don't you think?If we would talk like that ..I am not against communism...it's a way of life...but can we say that communist countries are only exploiting their citizens for making their own profits?
I don't think you would get along with that kind of description would you?
Mahmoud, I'm not sure how we got to "communist countries" now. I just wanted to say that I don't think individual "smartness" or "talent" are factors which explain why the rich get richer and the poor stay poor. There is smartness and talent with people who are rich and with people who are poor, too.I know that in many media and politics there is the narrative that people get rich because they are smarter or have more talent than others. But I think this is not true. It has more to do with how the system works. And capitalism makes some very rich and the majority very poor. And from my understanding of marxist thinking I would say yes, the wealth of the few comes from exploiting the people of the working class. Because workers build the wealth but often earn much too little wage to earn a living.
You know...my country is considered a third world...okay..but even in my country I can assure you...there is no worker in my country who earns too little wage to earn a living..Even in the communist countries they all make a living..
So could you please enlighten me about this issue? I would like to know more...
In your country nobody earns a wage that is too little to live off it? Then the people there are really lucky. Because in germany there are people who do not earn enough money to live off it. They have to get multiple jobs to pay for everything or get help from the governement. We're happy here that there is an option to get monetary help from the governement, but it's not how it ought to be.And women are especially in danger of living in poverty, because of the jobs that have lower pay, the children they have to raise alone if they're single and so on. There are people who go to bed hungry in germany. And it's a first world country (if you follow that stupid classification).
To enlighten me in this kind of a situation in particular is to tell me that a worker exists in a country blablabla and earns blablabla every month for 8-12 hrs a day and the loaf of bread costs blablabla..that's to begin with..and they can't even go to work in another country because blablablaYou are still my favourite person in this discussion saschaa...I just wanted you to know thaat...
Michaela...you said that they get monetary help from the government..So they could earn a living..So the country knows what these people are actually facing...
I am actually a doctor...and for medical students in Egypt..unlike what you said, Germany is their paradise, we all learned German in order to go just after graduating find a good residency program and earn a "Facharzt" if you are familiar with that expression..So Germany is the land of our dreams here...
You should be proud of your country allowing us to be highly qualified specialists & earn a living there..you should be really proud!
Being an actor..doesn't need you to be smart...only talented.whatever the circumstances in her country are.So let's say that someone started like a model then an actor in small roles then she got the starring roles...for the next ten years..she is considered a worker in an industry...became rich..then someone ADVISED her to start her own movie production company..made all the movies for her ex-fellow workers....became the richest female on earth..Would she be considered as a Capitalist or did she exploit anyone?
Yeah the country knows what people are facing, they are still poor and some of them are hungry. I'm not really sure what your point is with what you're saying?Of course a Facharzt can make a living here, because you have to study for that. I wouldn't call doctors workers, they are academics, a totally different social class. Many children from workimg class parents do not get the opportunity to study.
The same exact thing in Egypt, there are people who are poor and hungry, but from what I know is that in your country there are both public and private medicine schools..So there must be public high schools where workers could afford to pay the fees for their kids or even wouldn't need to pay at all..on the other hand, there are a lot of Egyptian teenagers who get out of high school in order to become workers because they cannot Bare going to school in the morning and working in the afternoon and proceed with their studies at the weekend...in comparison..a lot of Egyptian medical students even come to study in Germany...in public medicine schools...I am sure they pay almost nothing...and they work in a restaurant for example in order to pay for food and rent...
It's all about motivation..
Okay michaela...I am talking about a fully motivated female...who struggled in life, faced a lot of difficult circumstances, nevertheless she became the richest Human being on earth....This incident did not take place until now, so it may be considered fictional..if she WANTS to go all the way...What would be the obstacles that she would face all the way through?
What can be done to remove the obstacles against her?
We said nurseries in every institute and nursery school in every neighbourhood would be a start...but we also said it is not a main obstacle..So what else?
I said they are not fully motivated at schools, they bocome mothers and when they become mothers we would have mother child mirror image situation..
I would never say it's as easy as motivation. I think that's a dangerous mentality that exists to protect the status quo. We want to believe that a fully motivated person can become the richest person on earth because then the world is a just place (see just world theory and system justification). But all this thinking does is keep us from adressing social issues of class and opportunity.If your parents are poor and you are hungry, where would you get that motivation from? If you're fighting for survival you don't have the luxury of thinking where to go to college. Yes education is free here, but that means you have to go to a school where you can make Apitur, which allows you to study. Poor children do not get the motivation from parents to work so hard in school, they do not get help after school (because money), teachers will not think of them as being as able as a rich kid. It's similar with girls in math or physics. Teachers will not think about them as good as boys (and they do not realize that). So there is your first obstacle, gender roles.
The second part would be career options. Poor children will get different career options told to them than rich kids. Women will get different ones from men. People will tell girls to become nurses, care for the elderly or work with children (or if they're poor to work as hairdressers or do make-up), while boys will be pushed toward IT, economics, law or theoretical mathematics/physics/chemics. So the second obstacle would be to go against societsl expectations. And this will keep happening throughout the career, people asking why not become a mother, get married, why that new promotion instead of more family time. Bosses will think women to be weaker, less smart or competent (or if tgey are competent they are not warm enough) and promote men. Studies show that giving two exact identical resumees, people will promote the men because they will think him to be better.
And it goes on and on. Same obstacle, different ways to interfere.
"If your parents are poor and you are hungry, where would you get that motivation from?"From public figure successful role models whom there is no doubt in their success and do charity work and donations for these children...
I want you Michaela to read a story of a Saudi Arabian man , his name is Soliman Alrajhi..he's an example of extraordinary self motivated human beings...
My cousin she is dutch and she was a very successful lawyer..her father says that she was even way better than all the men of her same age...So because of the misbelief that men are better than women..they started feminism organizations and we saw feminist activists like Emma..to change that concept..
As I told you..there is a lack of motivation from the teachers...but you see it more as a concept..So do you think female teachers should get feminism awarness in each and every school for example?
Pam wrote: "I'm child free by choice because I prefer my career. And fortunately I am in a position to do so. But many mothers don't have that luxury. "Pardon the digression but Pam has made an important point. I would like to know why is that when we talk about working women we have to bring up child care? Why do we by default assume that a woman will necessarily bear children?
I really respect Pam's decision here. If a woman wants to be career-oriented, it should not be incumbent upon her to eventually bear children. In the same breath I will say it should not be assumed that a married woman who does have children must compromise with her career, her husband could do that too for the sake of their children.
Well ashwin..I think public and private nursery schools would be just fine for either a mother or a father whatever the circumstances are, to be career oriented as you have just mentioned...But what do you think the obstacles would be for a career oriented young lady to become a self-made business woman..besides child-care?
Pam said before that men would actually not like taking orders From a woman..What I suggested is that a woman should make a female-based industry all workers & academics would be working under a woman who is in charge...I think that this would solve almost all businesswomen's problems...
I would love to hear any new obstacle from your side..thank you
No, Mahmoud, i do not think women should get any special training. And that's for the same reason that i do not like your idea of female-only businesses.I think this leads to something really bad, because it takes all responsibility from men. Male teachers should get feminist awareness trainings too. And male bosses should start hiring women and promoting them.
Men should start to get invested in feminism, to promote it and teach it to their kids. Because women already do that.
Michaela wrote: "No, Mahmoud, i do not think women should get any special training. And that's for the same reason that i do not like your idea of female-only businesses.I think this leads to something really bad,..."
Yes Michaela...this is my opinion and you will accept it because if women cannot prove to men that they can do everything by their own..without the help of the men...then they don't deserve to ask for gender equality WHATSOEVER!
Mahmoud wrote: "Yes Michaela...this is my opinion and you will accept it because if women cannot prove to men that they can do everything by their own..without the help of the men...then they don't deserve to ask for gender equality WHATSOEVER! ."I will only accept, that i find your opinion unacceptable and that i therefore will leave this discussion here. Women do not have to prove anything. Humans are humans and should have the same rights, no matter what genitalia they have. Having a penis does not give anyone the right to decide who gets what and when.
Have a nice day and i hope the discussions here at OSS will show you another view on equality.
Women don't need to get rich and women don't need to prove anything...so from your point of view you don't need to do anything..Okay..when I sit with a feminist I will always keep that in mind...you're welcome
Mahmoud wrote: "Yes Michaela...this is my opinion and you will accept it because if women cannot prove to men that they can do everything by their own..without the help of the men...then they don't deserve to ask for gender equality WHATSOEVER! ..."You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But we don't have to agree or accept that.
There's no difference between men and women. They don't have to ask for gender equality. They don't have to provide their equality. Occasionally they do have to demand it. But the genders are equal, and we as a society have to find better ways to act in accordance with the fact.
It's not about deserving. No one has to prove anything before they're earn equality.
Winston wrote: "Mahmoud wrote: "Yes Michaela...this is my opinion and you will accept it because if women cannot prove to men that they can do everything by their own..without the help of the men...then they don't..."She said that there are women who are uneducated and can't teach their children anything...and then she said all women teach their children feminism and there is no problem with women and all. And then she started mentioning penises as if penises are causing her a problem and then she Said she will leave the group...
What I know Mr.Winston is that women started feminism for demanding gender equality from the men...And I suggested that women would show to men that they are capable of doing each and every task without men's help so afterwards they would do it together with mutual trust..
But she thinks all women don't need to demand anything and I think as far as she is concerned maybe they need to announce that all feminist demands are done and no need to discuss anything and in fact we should close the blog..
Did I misunderstand Mr.Winston?
Mahmoud wrote: "Winston wrote: "Mahmoud wrote: "Yes Michaela...this is my opinion and you will accept it because if women cannot prove to men that they can do everything by their own..without the help of the men....."I did not say many of these things, but foremost did i not say that i will leave this group, which i of course won't. I will just no longer participate in this discussion because i see no merit in it.
Michaela wrote: "Mahmoud wrote: "Winston wrote: "Mahmoud wrote: "Yes Michaela...this is my opinion and you will accept it because if women cannot prove to men that they can do everything by their own..without the h..."Then your eyes are blind...And let this be the end of it...
Women are brilliant surgeons, actresses, I am not a fan of the tennis game but when I do watch a professional one I get the idea that women are definitely more talented when it comes to directing the ball, James Rodriguez 2014 Puskas award should have definitely been awarded to the other nominated Lady.But, when it comes to "Business"...the real Business where it really matters..the list of the richest women Forbes 2014 are all women..who inherited their fortune either from family members or their husbands.
Furthermore, the list of the world's richest self-made businesswomen..the majority are women who either helped, aided or supported their husbands or their brothers who were actually in charge. Even more, their success level is incomparable to the men's success.
according to me, I see no problem for the richest human being on planet Earth to be simply a female!!
Women are smarter..no doubt about that.. but what is holding them back?what are the obstacles?
I thank each and everyone of you for sharing his or her ideas, thoughts, suggestions and point of views.
Thank you all!