AUoG: March 2018 Pick - An Unkindness of Ghosts by River Solomon

[Jessica]

Never saw that, sadly. Perhaps I'll have to remedy that, and watch it with my kids

[Iain]

Jessica wrote: "Never saw that, sadly. Perhaps I'll have to remedy that, and watch it with my kids"

The first 30 minutes is magical.. The rest is good, but that beginning is simply magnificent.

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

I haven't read the discussion yet because I still need to start but I wanted to let you know that I saw the publisher (reps from) at AWP and let them know that the largest book group in Goodreads had this book as their pick this month. They had no idea but hopefully they will pay attention now. \o/

[Arcadia]

Rick wrote: "I just don't see the latter surviving for long if the society is a slave-based one. Maybe for a generation or two but not long term. ."

The sad fact is that the Atlantic slave trade lasted longer than the 300 years mentioned in the book. While it might not feel as treacherous with modern technology, open sea travel was incredibly dangerous. The society seems to be aware enough of science and medicine to be cautious of the vacuum of space. And if mutiny is the concern, maintaining a tyrannical structure of labor and punishment can do much to oppress opposition. Haiti did not gain independence until the 1800s.

If the general knowledge level of the society was that of the antebellum south, I could perhaps see a problem. However, I think history, and quite frankly current society, shows us that slave-based cultures can maintain their power and structure for many generations.

[Beth]

I guess for some people Aurora spoiled the entire subgenre of generation ship books, because if you believe in its premise that they are too complicated to work even if everything goes well, than it's time to give up.

I'm with Walton where I'm willing to read what the author wrote -- in this case it's not about the square footage but about the society trapped inside and what people do to survive and what is necessary to do to get out.

And what people owe to each other -- Giselle is an absolutely awful friend but Aster accepts that because she sees that the trauma inflicted on her has limited her possibilities. I have problems with that -- people should have boundaries, and even if it isn't the fault of the person hurting someone, no one has to accept being abused. But Aster isn't good at boundaries in general.

[Rick]

Arcadia wrote: "
The sad fact is that the Atlantic slave trade lasted longer than the 300 years mentioned in the book. While it might not feel as treacherous with modern technology, open sea travel was incredibly dangerous...."


However the voyages didn't take generations. You're confusing two things - the duration of the slave trade and the duration of the voyages. Here, they're the same thing - the voyage takes generations unlike the middle passage crossings.

Beth - not Aurora, that's just the most recent example I could think of that illustrated the point . The hard cold fact is that we really have no idea how to balance a closed ecosystem of the complexity, with no possible inputs from outside the system ever over a period of centuries. Is it *impossible*? No. Is it horribly complex? Yes. For me, the combination of that with the society posited presented a barrier to entry. For others, it didn't.

[Beth]

Rick wrote:
Beth - not Aurora, that's just the most recent example I could think of that illustrated the point .


It doesn't have to be Aurora, but clearly this subgenre won't work for you. Since it's not what the book is interested in, it won't address the stuff you are fixated on. Like Walton's friend who was stuck on tachyons when Forever War was never going to make it technically plausible.

Just means you have to read other books, that's all. I can think of a bunch of generation ship books I wouldn't recommend to you because you couldn't read any of the stories while worrying about the tech.

And I'm pretty sure Arcadia was referring to the whole society, not just the ship time. "Haiti did not gain independence until the 1800s."
There was a lot that seemed more like the sugar plantations of South America in terms of culture.

It was interesting how nobody questioned the society -- they knew it was cruel and dehumanizing, but no one had a picture of a better life, which was why there was no revolution. Even Aster's mom was going with a technological fix.

[John (Taloni)]

Aurora was a great book, a counterweight to the optimism regarding off-Earth colonization. I appreciated it while I didn't particularly enjoy it.

Aurora was simplistic itself though. There are materials, in the asteroid belt of both systems. You could even send a comet along with a similar engine. If anything extraplanetary colonization may resemble Asimov's Nemesis more than the traditional kind, in that people will live in a space habitat wherever it is.

As for colonizing other planets, I'm afraid that I will have to argue that Asimov's thesis in Caves of Steel is wrong. If humans colonize planets in other systems, they are likely to undergo substantial terraforming before colonists show up. The Robots of Dawn may yet have a purpose...

[Rick]

Beth wrote: "Rick wrote:
Beth - not Aurora, that's just the most recent example I could think of that illustrated the point .


It doesn't have to be Aurora, but clearly this subgenre won't work for you. Since..."


Sigh.... Why the hell do you people 1) keep bitching at me about my opinion and 2) utterly miss the frigging point that it's NOT ABOUT GENERATION SHIPS? It's about that AND a slave society which tend to be low tech and regressive. I get that's not what the book is about but I find it implausible that the society in the book could evolve and maintain itself in the necessarily high tech surrounding of the setting. Or rather I find it implausible that such a society could maintain the high tech infrastructure needed to keep the ship environment stable over a long period of time.

So, *FOR ME* suspension of disbelief wasn't there. I've said NOTHING about it being a bad book or that others shouldn't read it.

Look, if you all don't want to talk about this I'm fine bowing out but then quit fricking talking about the point.

And for the last time IT'S NOT JUST AURORA. If any of you spent half the time you're spending whining at me in learning a little about how hard an enclosed biosphere would be to create and maintain over long periods it would really help.

PS: No, this isn't like Walton's friend. If you think it is you understand neither that situation nor mine.

[Brendan]

Since this is a group that likes stats, I thought it might be interesting that this is 17 posts Rick has made about a book he hasn't read.

[Adelaide]

Brendan wrote: "Since this is a group that likes stats, I thought it might be interesting that this is 17 posts Rick has made about a book he hasn't read."

I don't really think this post is appropriate. There's no real argument here; it's sole purpose it to wind Rick up.

[Iain]

Rick wrote: "It's about that AND a slave society which tend to be low tech and regressive...."

The Romans! At the time they were probably the most technologically advanced civilisation around (I am not sure where the Chinese civilisation sat with regards to slavery).

[David H.]

There's slavery in today's world. Let's not pretend that it requires low tech/regressiveness.

[AndrewP]

John (Taloni) wrote: "If humans colonize planets in other systems, they are likely to undergo substantial terraforming before colonists show up."

Just like on LV-426.. and we know how that went :)

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

I haven't finished yet so don't want to delve too deeply into S&L discussion, but has anyone discussed a comparison to Wool yet?

[terpkristin]

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I haven't finished yet so don't want to delve too deeply into S&L discussion, but has anyone discussed a comparison to Wool yet?"

Nope, though now that you mention it, that does seem to be an apt comparison, for some things anyway...

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

terpkristin wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I haven't finished yet so don't want to delve too deeply into S&L discussion, but has anyone discussed a comparison to Wool yet?"

Nope, though now that you mention it,..."

That's what keeps striking me in the beginning anyway. This self-contained universe that is also big enough where not everyone interacts, stratified layers, etc.

[Brian]

Julie (3x5Books) wrote: "Alex wrote: "It's not so much suspension of disbelief regarding the world, I have a problem with, more so what the layout of the ship is. I'm having trouble building the setting in my mind."
I know..."
Same here.

[Brian]

Rick wrote: "So I read this = "Aster lives in the low-deck slums of the HSS Matilda, a space vessel organized much like the antebellum South."

And immediately reacted with "Uh, I'm going to have a hard time su..."

This is super late, but I finally read the book and feel glad that I did. To answer specific question you posed, I thought the author sold it well, especially considering the point of view of the main character. (I felt similar concerns about the likelihood of the premise based on the description.) (view spoiler)[If I recall correctly, the author makes some allusions to a major accident and mentioned something about some decisions being made at that point that were covered up. The impression I got was that the social structure when the generation ship set out did not involve slavery, the deaths during the accident probably killed off a good chunk of the population, everything fell apart with the ensuing social upheaval, and some of the leadership decided to institute slavery as a mechanism to restore order and repopulate. (I may have muddled/misunderstood some aspects of the backstory, and there were a few minor details that contradict this but that was the big picture impression I was left with.) To the point of view character, how the whole system came to be (i.e., how they got to an antebellum society) would not be something they would be aware of, so the lack of a clearer explanation made sense to me. (The hardest part to me to fathom was having a generation ship but not having a clear destination.) (hide spoiler)]