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World & Current Events > Should countries 'sell' citizenship?

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message 1: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14876 comments Yeah, not only material goods are for sale. Some countries 'sell' residency and/or citizenship for the right amount. As you can see even US, Australia, Canada and New Zealand are among them: http://uk.businessinsider.com/countri... .

The message is clear: 'come with the money from wherever and you are most welcome'.
At the same time, a path for a refugee to the same country might not be as rosy as for a millionaire. And local billionaires may keep trillions of dollars of undistributed profits abroad for whatever reason..
Kinda double standards, I would say.

What do you think?


message 2: by Bernard (last edited Dec 28, 2017 10:31AM) (new)

Bernard Boley (bernard_boley) | 126 comments When you consider the low level of acceptance of other people's culture, I tend to believe that these countries are 'buying' other people's money and not the people themselves.

On the other hand, Quebec, where I used to live, is actually buying people who just have a little French hoping they will repopulate it's territory with tons of new francophones (which BTW is not happening) and offering them more monetary advantages than the poor should normally expect. Now that's what I call a double standard. The worst thing is that this policy simply increases the number of jobless people, the government giving them more than they would get if they worked!!!


message 3: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14876 comments Bernard wrote: "the government giving them more than they would get if they worked!!!..."

Is it the government too generous, luring alleged French-speakers or employers a little .... restrained? -:)


message 4: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 10662 comments In New Zealand's case, the idea is that if we exclude refugees, which are a separate case, the country wants to choose those who will benefit the country, as opposed to simply land on the social security system, so they either have to be young with needed skills, or have enough money that they are less likely to be a problem. Of course once you impose rules, there are always the odd example who manages to get through with really base intentions. Unfortunately, we have also been plagued by the neoliberal concept of let the market decide, and this has problems that just about everyone else sees in other countries.


message 5: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5776 comments My dad in the States made friends with a New Zealander 15 years or so ago who would come to visit his brother down the road. If I remember correctly, this guy said that immigrants to NZ had to have $500,000. That made sense to me. I look at immigration as I would look at considering a roommate. Can he pay his part of the rent? Does he have a job or a skill that makes him employable? If not, I'm not interested in taking him in. Common sense.


message 6: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14876 comments Should citizenship be an expensive commodity? What do you think?


message 7: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 10662 comments I don't think you want to have immigrants that immediately go on the benefit (other than refugees). Correcting Scout just a little, you don't need that money in NZ if you have a guaranteed job that meets certain criteria (i.e. it pays reasonably, and it looks as if it will last). With that, you get a work permit. The citizenship comes after sufficient time that you look as if you intend to be permanent, self-supporting, and a good citizen.


message 8: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5776 comments Sorry for the misinformation. But, you know, the policy in NZ seems a sensible one - one the U.S. should adopt. Liberals in this country would reject that policy. My biggest complaint about liberals is that they don't use common sense.


message 9: by Philip (new)

Philip (phenweb) | 0 comments Sense is rarely common.


message 10: by Lizzie (new)

Lizzie | 1753 comments Scout wrote: "Sorry for the misinformation. But, you know, the policy in NZ seems a sensible one - one the U.S. should adopt. Liberals in this country would reject that policy. My biggest complaint about liberal..."

America has that type of Visa, It started in 1990 - an EB-5 Visa. It requires a certain amount of investment, a business that directly or indirectly adds jobs to the economy for 10 fulltime positions.. Prior to 2019, in a rural area, the minimum capital investment in the business was $500,000.; after 2019 it's $900,000.For non-rural or areas without high unemployment, the required amounts are double the amount for rural areas.

My boss did a lot of these in the late 2000s. Our area of the state is rural. 90% of those we did were for people from Australia and Great Britain. It gives that person a VISA, not citizenship.


message 11: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5776 comments I didn't know about that, but it sounds reasonable. I know there are student visas that don't have those requirements. What are the different types of visas, and how is it determined which people fall into which category? I'd like to know more about this because I currently am ignorant about visas. Are people coming from Mexico or Canada required to apply for visas before entering the country?


message 12: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 10662 comments In most countries, what sort of visa you get is what you apply for. You either get that one or are rejected, although a friendly embassy person might suggest you apply for a different one. Tourist ones are usually easy to get, study ones reasonably easy, work ones much less so.


message 13: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14876 comments And then, of course, there are treaties or one sided decisions, whereby countries waive visa requirements for the citizens of certain friendly countries, which are allowed to enter without a visa and stay for sometime (usually up to 3 months from what I know) b4 the need to formalize further sojourn


message 14: by Lizzie (new)

Lizzie | 1753 comments America's visa and immigrant policies have changed over the years. It is basically the result of prejudice. For our generation it has been those from Mexico and Latin America who are on our radar. In the early 1900s it was Southern Italy, Russia and Slavic countries. As a result of heavy lobbying, in 1917 the literacy test was added as those immigrants were mostly poor and uneducated past 6th to 8th grade levels. In 1912 it was Germans (some of whom were also interred during WWI).

Scout, you have to apply for the type of Visa you want and for which you qualify. There are 11 different types of work visas, which doesn't include all the other Visas for work, education, travel, marriage, diplomacy and so on..

For an overview of the different Visas - https://travel.state.gov/content/trav...


message 15: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14876 comments I like this "In a study released last month, researchers at the UK-based Global Sustainability Institute described New Zealand as "best placed to survive the collapse of global civilisation"." I guess Larry kens the score: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-5...


message 16: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 10662 comments Except Larry left when the medical treatment worked. As for NZ being the best place to resist rising sea levels, like most countries the cities tend to be built around ports which means they have parts starting more or less at sea level and the settlement spread onto the nearby flat land first, which is not that much above sea level. Worse, much of our highway system runs along the coast where the and is flatter :-(


message 17: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14876 comments He must’ve googled the place before applying for residency :) I bet his investment will be placed well above the sea 🌊 level


message 18: by Barbara (new)

Barbara | 226 comments Years ago, there was a book called "The Making of a Surgeon." After that, a female surgeon , Elizabeth Morgan, wrote a book called "The Making of a Woman Surgeon." Years after that, she became embroiled in a highly publicized child custody suit after her divorce. She was actually imprisoned for more than a year for refusing to disclose the whereabouts of the daughter, who had been taken, with Morgan's parents to NZ. Afterward, Morgan also moved to NZ, but talked about how difficult it was to settle there, that you had to have a significant net worth, a desirable occupation that the country needed.
I totally understand this. As a relatively small island nation, NZ is not equipped to take on emigrants who might be a drain on the country's resources.
Interesting because I recently read Yeonmi Park's book and when she talked about getting from North Korea to South Korea, she talked about how the immigration rules in SK for NK emigrants were a lot more stringent because years ago the refugees were largely males with education and occupations while there were now a lot more unskilled women and children who might be a drain on the country's resources.


message 19: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 10662 comments NZ immigration rules have to be reasonably limited for two reasons. The first is we have a reasonably generous social support from taxation; things like free health (apart from small fees for doctor's visits), free education, generous unemployment benefits, etc, and also a housing crisis. We need to put limits on how many can come, and we also need them to contribute to society. Finally, we need to get them to fit into society and from many countries we have to teach them enough English to get by and get them to accept our way of life. We are reasonably successful at this and most that come here quickly meld in, but we can only handle so many at a time.

The second reason is we have free entry into Australia, and we cannot permit people to come here as a back-door entry to Australia to get around their restrictions. So we want people that come here to be really coming here.


message 20: by Papaphilly (new)

Papaphilly | 3258 comments I think it depends on how you define "sell".


message 21: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14876 comments Papaphilly wrote: "I think it depends on how you define "sell"."

Country has a minimum investment requirement and in return a foreigner gets residency/citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigra...
As you can imagine some wealthy criminals abused these programs to relocate to comfy places


message 22: by Adrian (new)

Adrian Deans (adriandeans) | 254 comments Australia's been selling citizenship forever. Pretty sure other 1st world nations do it also - I read an article not so long ago about the subtle fight for skilled workers between the 1st world nations.

Pretty sure you can get an Oz visa just by depositing $5mill in an Australian bank and leaving it there.


message 23: by Luís (new)

Luís (blue_78) | 11 comments Very close to here, in Lisbon, there is a neighbourhood that calls itself the most multicultural of this border area. It is in the vicinity of Arroios. There are Chinese, Nepalese, Indians, Romanians, Brazilians and Ukrainians like the Chinatown of the United States.


message 24: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5776 comments Do you guys know that thousands of illegal immigrants come over our southern border every month without going through our immigration process? They come in and are dispersed throughout our county, never to be subject to immigration laws. They're circumventing the immigration process that applies to those who come in legally.


message 25: by Adrian (last edited Sep 24, 2021 09:06PM) (new)

Adrian Deans (adriandeans) | 254 comments Yep happens here too but as we don't have land borders they tend to come by plane and overstay.

Or by boat, hence our very divisive refugee policy.


message 26: by Lizzie (new)

Lizzie | 1753 comments According to the government statistics, a higher percentage of America's illegals are the result of overstayed Visas rather than illegal entry into the country.

Interestingly, when I was working a decade ago, more of our immigrant Visa work as a law firm was from Australian citizens wanting to relocate to the USA in which they were all opening businesses here.


message 27: by Adrian (new)

Adrian Deans (adriandeans) | 254 comments I guess the Mexicans were too busy working to submit visa applications?


message 28: by Papaphilly (new)

Papaphilly | 3258 comments Adrian wrote: "I guess the Mexicans were too busy working to submit visa applications?"

As Lizzie points out, it is more than just jumping across the border. She is also correct about the number of overstaying their visa's. However, there is a big difference between overstaying something you applied for and never apply and jumping the line. BTW, it is not mostly Mexicans, but Central Americans that comprise of the large number illegals.


message 29: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5776 comments The southern border is open to whoever wants to cross. That's with tacit approval of the Democrat administration. If they didn't approve, it wouldn't be happening. Border agents are saying that the cartels are taking advantage and moving drugs over the border, since there's nothing to stop them. There are reports of sex trafficking, of children coming into the country and being released to people who haven't been vetted, and who can't be traced. There's no requirement for people entering to be vaccinated for Covid. That's ironic, since border patrol agents are being fired for not being vaccinated. Logic is out the window.


message 30: by Adrian (new)

Adrian Deans (adriandeans) | 254 comments If that's true then it truly does defy logic.

But there is so much ideological misinformation coming out of America...who on Earth do you believe?


message 31: by Papaphilly (new)

Papaphilly | 3258 comments Adrian wrote: "If that's true then it truly does defy logic.

But there is so much ideological misinformation coming out of America...who on Earth do you believe?"


This one is true. There is a dirty secret. The Democrats want them for future voters. The Republicans want them for cheap labor. The American people are not happy and so both sides play against the middle.


message 32: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5776 comments Do you guys want to know what's really happening on our southern border? Do a little research and you'll find that the people entering our country are not being required to be vaccinated for Covid and are being dispersed throughout our country. People bringing in drugs and human traffickers are coming in. Here's an article from one of our most liberal outlets about what's going on in Texas, so it's not biased toward conservative viewpoints. If you want to know what's really going on with our Texas border and its governor, read this:
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/06/102525...


message 33: by Papaphilly (new)

Papaphilly | 3258 comments Funny thing about this article is that it is by NPR, not a bastion of Conservative thought.


message 34: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5776 comments Right, PapaP. The fact that a liberal organization reported this gives it credence. Is anyone worried yet about who's coming into the country on the southern border? It seems Biden's administration is fine with it.


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