The Old Curiosity Club discussion
The Haunted Man
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The Haunted Man - Part One
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Julie
Thanks for the information ... and thanks to your husband as well. I imagine that your location, being so close to mine, has great amounts of holly. It is a joy to see in any season, but especially this time of year.
The conversation regarding holly brings a smile to my face, while at the same time makes me want to put my grumpy pants on. A smile because, of course, it reminds me of Christmas. But grumpy because when we bought our house, there was a very large holly tree (maybe 30 feet tall?) planted very close to the front corner of our house. While it was lovely to look at, it did not bode well for my "enjoyable gardening time", which I always looked forward to, as the prickly leaves were scattered all over our front yard and lawn and it was nearly impossible to go outside barefoot in the summer or do any sort of yard work without getting pricked both on the feet and hands by all the leaves. Needless to say, we had my father-in-law fell the tree. We now use the stump as a bird bath.
We still have another, bigger, holly tree also in our front yard, but out near the street, and I don't so as much gardening out there, so it's safe. :)
It really is beautiful, but I don't think I'd want to garden in the middle of it either!
I am watching Scrooge with Alastair Sim on Turner Classic Movies. Haven't seen this version in years. Best of the bunch. Always leaves me teary.
Peter wrote: "Your comment that the ghost that haunts Redlaw is “an element of Radlaw’s own very soul” is, to my mind, exactly what Dickens wanted to suggest. In my message 6, I give a reference to an article on Jung’s concept of the shadow."Thanks for the link to Jung's Shadow, Peter. It's an interesting twist that Redlaw's shadow comes into his consciousness, to the extent of having a conversation. A frequent occurrence, it would seem -- as everyone says he's haunted. But he hasn't been able to incorporate this part of himself, and takes the offer/temptation to let him forget. The price, I imagine, will be his empathy.
I'm curious about the sister, and does he feel to blame for her end? His name makes me think of blood. And his friend became his brother-in-Law. Hmmmm.
Kim wrote: "Redlaw and the Boy
Chapter 1
John Leech
Commentary:
Little of Leech's usual sense of comedy and caricature appears in this plate. However, he allows a strongly felt emotion to dominate, as in..."
Thanks for all the wonderful illustrations and commentary, Kim. This street boy also reminded me of the boy Ignorance in A Christmas Carol. And a little of Jo in Bleak House, but with more defensiveness and self preservation. It's so ironic that Redlaw, in a way, chooses ignorance for himself -- ignorance of his own past.
I think this boy has one of the best line's in this section:
"Live! What's that?"
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Hi Vanessa
Dickens did like his ghosts, especially at Christmas. I am fascinated by how he portrayed the ghost in The Haunted Man and Jung seems to give a reasoned explanation although Jung was after Dickens. ... which of course leads to the question “Did Carl Jung read Dickens?” A question for another moment of research. :-))
In any case, the four ghosts in ACC and the ghosts that Gabriel Grub encounters on Christmas Eve in PP are all very clearly external ghosts. They are ghosts of other beings. They all have a dialogue with either Scrooge or Grub. When illustrated, they all are seen as being quite distinctly separate. In The Haunted Man, however, the Spectre/ghost is much more internal. It arrives as a shadow and then seems to be a part of Redlaw much more than an external presence.
Kim’s postings of the illustrations show that Tenniel in both the frontispiece and in “Redlaw and the Phantom” have Redlaw and his close likeness (the phantom) together, not separate as in the ghosts of ACC and PP. Since we know Dickens was very particular about how the illustrations to his work were completed, it is reasonable to say that he liked how the placements of the figures both looked and were placed.
Curious, and yet revealing, I find. In The Haunted Man Redlaw is indeed haunted, not by any external being, but by his own self. That, to me, summoned Jung.
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I was reminded yesterday why I never watch movies about books I've read, I turned on the television and a version of A Christmas Carol was on and I spent the entire time either saying "that didn't happen" or "why did they skip that part", I suppose I should stick to the book. :-)
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Peter and Vanessa,
I find that reading most intriguing, and it seems to be working for what I have so far read of the second part of the story. Somehow, a man being haunted by his own sinister alter ego is, for me, much more eerie than the external ghosts in the Carol.
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I was reminded yesterday why I nev..."
I know how you feel, Kim, but I bought the Disney version with Jim Carey for the children last year, and I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed it. There are, of course, a lot of action scenes but all in all, it is very faithful to the book and also has the more contemplative passages that are left out in many film versions. They really put a lot of thought and effort into it, and I think that Dickens would probably have liked it because there is quite a lot of action in it - as in his books.
Here's a trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ3lr...
Linda wrote: "...I then found myself lost as to how many people were in the room since I was confused by the Williams and Swidgers. :) I thought they were one in the same, but was glad to get clarification in these threads...."
Ha ha ha Linda, I had the same problem :D
Tristram wrote: "... I bought the Disney version with Jim Carey for the children last year, and I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed it...."I want to buy that one, Tristram. I just saw the trailer, I like Jim Carey and the special effects they used in the film to make him look like that.
Hello everybody,I’m behind schedule, I’ve finished chapter 1 and I’m starting chapter 2 tomorrow. I’ve just finished reading (and enjoying) all the comments.
Speaking of repetitions, there is a repetition that Dickens uses in the dialogue between Mr Redlaw and the Phantom-doppelgänger, (thank you Peter for the great article about Jung).
When the Haunted Man sees the Phantom, he says:
“I see you in the fire,” said the haunted man; “I hear you in music, in the wind, in the dead stillness of the night.”
When the Phantom mentions the sister, the Haunted Man says:
“I saw her, in the fire, but now. I hear her in music, in the wind, in the dead stillness of the night,” returned the haunted man.
When the Phantom speaks about pictures of the future, the Haunted Man says:
“I saw them, in the fire, but now,” he murmured. “They come back to me in music, in the wind, in the dead stillness of the night, in the revolving years.”
When the Haunted Man says these revolutions of years that we commemorate bring back painful recollections which he would not deprive himself of, the Phantom says:
“They have been wont to show themselves in the fire, in music, in the wind, in the dead stillness of the night, in the revolving years,” returned the Phantom scornfully.
It’s a repetition not just of a word but of a full sentence. To me it sounds like a refrain. The Phantom uses its part of the repetition scornfully, with a humorous effect, to mock the man and bring him back to what he thinks the grim reality is.
That dialogue is the part I enjoyed the most.
The Jim Carey Christmas Carol is my husband's favorite, even though he is not a big Jim Carey fan. We've owned a copy for years and usually watch it more than once each Christmas.
I enjoyed watching Jim Carey in the Grinch
Milena wrote: "I enjoyed watching Jim Carey in the Grinch"I'm sorry, but I couldn't stand that movie. :(
Not caught up yet on these comments. I'm sorry I've been unwell so when I got to the end of Edwin Drood I took a bit of a break. I'm not sure whether I shall read The Haunted Man but I'd like to read at least some of it. I still have Madame Bovary (and others) waiting from a few chapters in!Everyman, I am so delighted to see you. We missed you. I feel cozily at home with the 'grump' motif being bandied about. Of course, it's really a term of endearment as you well know 😊
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I want to buy that one, Tristram. I just saw the traile..."
I'm sure you'll enjoy it, Milena. A lot of the dialogue seems to have been taken straight from the book.
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Madame Bovary, Hilary? What made you start this book? Did you lose a bet? You have my full sympathies because this is one of the most long-winded and pointless novels I have ever come across. Even if I include the whole works of Thomas Mann ... ;-)
Linda, not everybody likes Carey. But I also liked The Mask when I saw it at the cinema. It was a crazy film, I know, but I confess that I laughed from the beginning till the end. I don't know if I would enjoy it so much now: my tastes have changed since then (although I always like a good laugh). :o)
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So, how did you like the book? :-) It's been so long since I read it I don't remember much about it.
Milena wrote: "Linda, not everybody likes Carey. But I also liked The Mask when I saw it at the cinema."I generally like Jim Carey, mostly his older stuff starting way back when he was on the TV show In Living Color. The Grinch, though, I didn't like the overall feel of the movie, so it wasn't Jim Carey in particular that I didn't like about it.
I still haven't even finished part one, but after all those "when"s, I just had to check in and see what everyone had to say about them. I hadn't noticed a lot of the other repetition (except for the old fellow being 87), so thank you, Peter, for pointing it out. I admit to having less than charitable thoughts about all those whens. First, I thought Dickens must have had a hard time deciding what imagery he wanted to use, so he got lazy and used every idea he'd come up with. Then I wondered if he was being paid by the word. Like another reader (forgive me, I've forgotten who), I lost the thread of the whole thing and had to go back to see what all those whens were referring to. It definitely set a mood, but I thought it went on entirely too long. I enjoyed the way Dickens wrote William - brown gravy! :-) He is so masterful at character quirks! And far from being annoyed by Philip Swidger, I found his repeating his age endearing. He is eighty-seven, after all. Milly (aka Mrs. William) seems like one of CD's more lovable female characters - I don't picture her as having tiny hands and feet, but rather of being well-rounded in both personality and physique.
I don't know what to make of Mr. Redlaw, and have yet to meet the malicious spirit. Hoping to get at least that far before the day is through.
PS to Kim - I have a holly with berries in my yard, and love to bring some cuttings in at this time of year to decorate. It will be interesting to see what symbolic role the holly might have as the story goes on. I quite like the idea of keeping my memory green!
PS to Gilbert - I'm with you! Alistair Sim's version is the best!
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What was not to like?
Let me see, where shall I start? ;-)
Hahaha, Tristram, Bovary was being read in another group but I'm struggling to get anywhere with it. I've heard that it gets better after about 100 pages! We shall see. Dickens holds a mirror up to all other authors and too often they are found wanting.
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But after which 100 pages? I cannot be the first or second 100 pages ...
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Hi Julie
I’ve found a partial answer to your question about Dickens’s knowledge and reading of Jane Austen. In Claire Tomalin’s Charles Dickens she cites the fact that Dickens received a set of Austen’s work from his publisher Bentley. In the endnote that follows it reads “Bentley published his editions of Austen in 1833. Forster noted that Dickens had not read any Austen when writing Nicolas Nickleby, and, according to a later friend, the poet Frederik Locker-Lampson, ‘he did not unduly appreciate Miss Jane Austen’s novels’. Collins, “Interviews and Recollections” I, p. 117.
I’m glad you raised the question. Now we know a bit more Boz trivia.
Peter wrote: "Julie wrote: "Thanks, Peter, for the intro! Just to make sure I have the rules right, I'm posting under the assumption that it's ok to talk about anything in Part One, The Gift Bestowed, but nothin..."Thank you! Also I love "he did not unduly appreciate Miss Jane Austen's novels." Appreciation in moderation, it seems--unlike all those unduly people who got carried away. :)
(Dickens to poet friend: "They were okay I guess.")
I suspect he would have thought Jane Austen did not cast her eye very far from the gentility from which she herself sprang. Aristocrats just get parodied, and the working classes do not exist for Austen. Wonderful though her insights and wits are, Dickens's purview was far wider I think, and he probably thought this more interesting. Oh dear, I've started at the end. Sorry for my very late arrival, I did actually manage to read the book in parallel with you all, but could not either get to a computer, or stand the light from it. I'm a lot better now though and fascinated by what I read here.
Yes, the "when"s. I thought at the time, who else could get away with this, apart from Dickens! It narrowed our focus nicely, and increased the atmosphere, though I confess to a giggle at the conclusion "in short ..." LOL! Again, so very Dickens.
We learned quite early on that the Phantom is none other than another aspect of Mr Redlaw, so I wondered if Dickens had considered the obvious title, "The Man Who Haunted Himself". After all, coming so early in, it wouldn't have been much of a spoiler.I couldn't find any evidence for that though, but found that it had been delayed a year (as you said, Kim) on the advice of John Forster, after Dickens had written to him:
"Would there be any distinctly bad effect in holding this idea over for another twelvemonth? saying nothing whatever till November; and then announcing in the Dombey that its occupation of my entire time prevents the continuance of the Christmas series until next year, when it is purported to be renewed. I am very loath to lose the money. And still more so the leave any gap at Christmas firesides which I ought to fill."
This seems so unlike the Dickens we know, who excelled at juggling several projects at once, that I wondered at the true motives. Was he finding either Dombey or this story particularly difficult to write? I do feel that this story is unique in his oeuvre; there's nothing quite like it really.
The doppelganger seems to be a particular preoccupation of Victorian novelists, I guess because of the new theories and discoveries in psychoanalysis. I too thought of Jekyll and Hyde - and immediately thought that Mr Redlaw seems to be a counterpoint to Scrooge - there are so many similarities in his life.But where Scrooge has humour, there is none here with the Phantom. The humour is all added on, with incidental characters.
Yes, holly is a crucial part of Christmas in England, and very symbolic, so evergreen wouldn't do. Think of these lyrics to "The Holly and the Ivy":1
The holly and the ivy,
When they are both full grown,
Of all the trees that are in the wood,
The holly bears the crown.
The rising of the sun
And the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ,
Sweet singing in the choir.
2
The holly bears a blossom,
As white as the lily flower,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ,
To be our sweet Saviour.
The rising of the sun
And the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ,
Sweet singing in the choir.
3
The holly bears a berry,
As red as any blood,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
For to do us sinners good.
The rising of the sun
And the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ,
Sweet singing in the choir.
4
The holly bears a prickle,
As sharp as any thorn,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
On Christmas Day in the morn.
The rising of the sun
And the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ,
Sweet singing in the choir.
5
The holly bears a bark,
As bitter as any gall,
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
For to redeem us all.
The rising of the sun
And the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ,
Sweet singing in the choir.
Link here to wiki.
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Jean
You are so right. Dickens was quite the juggler. Perhaps not of objects into the air, but certainly of written work, projects, activities, travel and other obligations. Dare we say one of his phrases could be “Multi-tasking? Bah, humbug!”
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The first instance of the doppelgänger I ever read was Die Elixiere des Teufels by E.T.A. Hoffmann, and it was based on an old German superstition according to which seeing your doppelgänger was a sign of your imminent death. At least, that's what we learnt as a background story in our German lessons decades ago.
I also remember a Russian story by Dostoevsky in which a doppelgänger plays a role, and Nicolai Gogol's story "The Nose" also seems to be a variation of this motif.
I've never known any author who used doppelgängers as often as Dickens. But I have to admit, there are few authors I've read as much as Dickens.
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You're welcome. I can recommend the Elixiere especially because E.T.A. Hoffmann's exuberance is contagious.
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Apart from Redlaw and his "ghost", there is old Mr Flintwinch and his brother coming to my mind as well as Carton and Darnay. Are there any others? Maybe, if you stretch a point, there is Riderhood and Bradley trying to look like Riderhood. Let's hunt out some more.
Perhaps "doppelgänger" is too specific a word. But there are definitely other instances of people looking like others, or trying to. In Bleak House we have the strong resemblance between Esther and Lady Dedlock as a main theme ( we learn the reason for that), but we also have Hortense skulking around trying to look like Lady Dedlock.
The Old Curiosity Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Die Elixiere des Teufels (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
E.T.A. Hoffmann (other topics)John Forster (other topics)
Jane Austen (other topics)
I asked my botanist husband if holly was used for Christmas rather than Easter because that's when the berries were red, and he had this answer: "Yes. Plus the general symbolism of a plant that remains vibrant and green all through the darkest months of the year when everything else is brown and dormant. But the berries clinch it. We take the modern color palette of our temperate world for granted, but there is a reason red is a color of royalty and importance, as a scarce color in the pre-industrial landscape of Europe."
(And yes, we do conduct a ridiculous amount of our communication over email.)