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Theological Questions > Is your Jesus the TRUE or FALSE Christ?

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message 1: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Mark 13:22 - "for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect ."

Jesus Himself WARNS of false Christs and false prophets. How do we know if the Jesus we are following is the TRUE Christ or not?


message 2: by Wade (new)

Wade J. | 177 comments (1) Who is the focus of the glorifying - Jesus or a prophet?
(2) Was the "christ" being exalted prophesied in the OT, just as it was with the real Jesus?
(3) Was the "revelation" to the "prophet" just to that individual, or was it to a multitude (as it was with the real Jesus)?
(4) Does the false christ contradict the bible?

Just a few quick thoughts ...


message 3: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Wade wrote: "(1) Who is the focus of the glorifying - Jesus or a prophet?
(2) Was the "christ" being exalted prophesied in the OT, just as it was with the real Jesus?
(3) Was the "revelation" to the "prophet" j..."


Good stuff Wade!


message 4: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Wade - the real Christ can't allude to the Bible - most of it wasn't compiled and agreed upon. This insistence on taking the modern Bible literally in order to know Jesus of Nazareth is pure hogwash. Most of us never would have come to him with that provision added. This is merely modern day legalism - adding on conditions for salvation beyond the free gift ensured by belief in the events at the Cross.


message 5: by Wade (new)

Wade J. | 177 comments Robert ... I'm not sure where you're coming from at all. It sounds like you are looking for something that isn't there. You're trying to put words in my mouth. I don't appreciate that at all.


message 6: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Wade - the real Christ can't allude to the Bible - most of it wasn't compiled and agreed upon. This insistence on taking the modern Bible literally in order to know Jesus of Nazareth is pure hogwas..."

God says quote:

6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them , O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever .
___________________________

My response: Not to worry Wade, that Robert REJECTS the God and TRUE Jesus of the Bible in favor of the God of his own opinions.


message 7: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Or:
The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible (like it says).
And everything we can trust about Jesus is in there (nothing more, nothing less - for now). Paradise will reveal much more of course. But we ain't there yet.

Charismatics and cults might claim New information- but its impossible to sort through it. It is a fun game for those with discernment.
And academic scholars will obviously claim the opposite- reducing Jesus to a long dead Jewish Eco-hippy Guru.


message 8: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Rod - re: the Holy Spirit writing the Bible - He sure must be miffed that so much of His work was left on the cutting room floor.


message 9: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Wade - you asked four very open-ended questions. I wasn't interested in addressing them individually so I formulated a sweeping response. It was not an indictment of you personally, but of the theological direction I inferred from said questions.


message 10: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Rod - re: the Holy Spirit writing the Bible - He sure must be miffed that so much of His work was left on the cutting room floor."

God says quote:

6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them , O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever .
___________________________

My response: Not to worry Wade, that Robert REJECTS the God and TRUE Jesus of the Bible in favor of the God of his own opinions.


message 11: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Robert - as I have no Jewish blood that I know of, I am decidedly Gentile and owe my salvation ENTIRELY to Jesus of Nazareth. That he is part of a triune God I accept without hesitation because JESUS HIMSELF says so through the Gospels. Much of scripture is necessary to fully understand God's aversion to sin and the precedents for Christ's earthbounding. Much is Hebrew lore designed to elevate Yahweh to an even more awesome status (in the author's eyes) than in just telling the story straightforward and letting His glory shine through unembellished. Some stories are like our modern day Santa Claus - designed to wow little children. If you have the mentality of a child, Robert, fine; it probably doesn't do much harm other than rendering you immature company. BUT, if you take the Bible literally, as many do, to make admonitions sins such as having your women obey you or face hell when you have no idea how to lead, then you are dangerous. This wouldn't have anything to do with demanding sexual favors, would it, Robert?


message 12: by Wade (new)

Wade J. | 177 comments Colorado Robert ... You're about as rude a "Christian" as I've ever seen. Take your childish remarks somewhere else.


message 13: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Cutting room floor? Not unless God wants it there.

You don't seem to give the Holy Spirit much credit for the Bible. Yet God states this as essential. Why trust any of it then?
I'm 100%. Just for the fun of it.


message 14: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Wade - ad hominem is a philosophical ploy that states you have no original input. Try putting on a thinking cap just for a change of direction.


message 15: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Rod - there are eyewitnesses to the Resurrection account. I believe them and unhealthy choices back up Jesus' assertion that I can do nothing right without Him. My knowledge of genetics and physics points toward a nonmaterial original Creator. Because I don't believe the Holy Spirit put pen to paper, but planted visions in the authors, room for exaggeration and bias is the default mode for writers everywhere (myself included). Scientists are by nature skeptical, but the process has brought forth tangible advancement in technology and knowledge of God's natural laws. I don't know what artists are (including theologians and Bible "experts"), but judging from the lack of progress in social order and religious continuity, I'd say they need a different tact rather then relying 100% on anything that hasn't been remotely successful in advancing world order. (Jesus, however, is an unqualified success!)


message 16: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Rod - there are eyewitnesses to the Resurrection account. I believe them and unhealthy choices back up Jesus' assertion that I can do nothing right without Him. My knowledge of genetics and physics..."

You believe an awful lot of whatever YOU WANT to believe.

What is your authority? Or does it all boil down to YOUR OPINION?


message 17: by Wade (new)

Wade J. | 177 comments Colorado Robert ... you're absolutely right about ad hominem attacks. Why are you engaging in them??? It's hard to take you seriously when you're so impressed with yourself.


message 18: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Wade wrote: "Colorado Robert ... you're absolutely right about ad hominem attacks. Why are you engaging in them??? It's hard to take you seriously when you're so impressed with yourself."

True Wade. There is no authority upon which to have a discussion with someone who claims to love Jesus... but disrespects the Bible, the Word of God.

Jesus did not hold the Bible in contempt as that Robert seems to...

Matthew 4:4 - "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."


message 19: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Robert, Wade - to put the shoe on the other foot - the Gospels (part of the Bible you claim to love so much) state that ALL that is necessary for salvation is accepting Jesus Christ as the divine son of God sent to relieve the sins of the world. That does not mean accepting the most implausible parts of Scripture as directly from our Maker. To do so implies that you have no active mechanism to distinguish fact from fiction or you have an ulterior motive. I will give you two the benefit of the doubt and say that you think your stance makes you more righteous and able to be more of service to the Lord. Though Biblically inaccurate and legalistic, that is at least a positive interpretation. Knowing mortals to be forever sinful (but forgiven) and not even remotely righteous (Biblical, not my opinion), darker motives may be in order. Quite frankly, I've met far too many who use religious quotes to justify the most abhorrent of behavior. If you two want to be Jewish and dictate circumcision or some other condition on being Christian then by all means join that faith. I have a new covenant which doesn't require such baloney.


message 20: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Robert, Wade - to put the shoe on the other foot - the Gospels (part of the Bible you claim to love so much) state that ALL that is necessary for salvation is accepting Jesus Christ as the divine s..."

My response: The Gospels (Jesus Himself) WARNS us of FALSE christs... like the one you proclaim... your Jesus is a liar. The Jesus of the Bible embraces almost all of the Old Testament as SCRIPTURE (God breathed).

Yet YOU REJECT the true Jesus.


message 21: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Accept which/what Jesus as son of God?

Why believe anything about Jesus? Especially the "defying death and rising from the dead to be our eternal King who judges all of creation"

And you call that normal Robert? Why not be consistent and believe THE REST as well? Just curious.


message 22: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Rod - eyewitnesses plus a personal calling. No need to believe Samson's extrahuman exploits; nothing is gained except admitting you're superstitious.


message 23: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments So what, Robert; I believe MOST of the Old Testament?


message 24: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Robert - are you even promoting Jesus; or are you just promoting your own fanaticism.


message 25: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Can I believe Jeremiah? Or David? Or Daniel?


message 26: by Wade (new)

Wade J. | 177 comments Colorado Robert said, "... I will give you two the benefit of the doubt."

Gee, thanks. You're awfully proud of yourself for a self-proclaimed Christian. Who gave you the authority to believe what you want to believe in the bible? Oh, that's right. You did.

Oh by the way, YOU are the fanatic. Not the other Robert. I've had about enough of your narcissism, dude. Have a nice life.


message 27: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "So what, Robert; I believe MOST of the Old Testament?"

The TRUE Jesus BELIEVED it all.


message 28: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Robert - are you even promoting Jesus; or are you just promoting your own fanaticism."

I preach the TRUE Jesus of the Bible... NOT the made up guy you proclaim...

Mark 13:22 - "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise..."


message 29: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Wade - you ought to work on your pent up anger; that's a sin unless you can't distinguish it from an admonition.


message 30: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Robert -luckily, the Jesus of Nazareth whom I call Savior distinguishes the path I had to walk to pick up and carry His cross. That doesn't include ridiculous Bible lore like being swallowed by a "big fish" (why not a giant squid or leviathan itself?) Bet if I offered to send all my money to your church, foundation, or better yet, to you personally, you'd somehow find a way to allow me as a Christian brother. Glad to see hypocrisy is alive and well in orthodoxy-la-la-land.


message 31: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Robert -luckily, the Jesus of Nazareth whom I call Savior distinguishes the path I had to walk to pick up and carry His cross. That doesn't include ridiculous Bible lore like being swallowed by a "..."

You Jesus is one of the FALSE christs that the TRUE Jesus WARNED us about.

Mark 13:22 - "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise..."


message 32: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments The TRUE Jesus states that the Law, Prophets, and Psalms are Scripture... but the other Robert KNOWS BETTER THAN JESUS.

Luke 24:44-45

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses , and in the prophets , and in the psalms , concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures ,


message 33: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Rod - because you cultivate scientists who abandon what they know to be true for some vague supposed ethereal reward (other than salvation which can be obtained while keeping your credibility), I really don't know what you believe. Last I checked you believed the earth to be 6000 years old. Wow the ancient fossils of sea creatures I find atop the mountains in West Texas must be a figment of my imagination.


message 34: by Wade (new)

Wade J. | 177 comments We need to introduce Colorado Robert to Stuart the atheist. They're both very impressed with their own godship.


message 35: by Robert (last edited Oct 18, 2017 04:14PM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Wade wrote: "We need to introduce Colorado Robert to Stuart the atheist. They're both very impressed with their own godship."

You got that right Wade!

He claims to love Jesus... but REJECTS the Word of God that Jesus claims as authoritative!


message 36: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Matthew 12:40 - "for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster , so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Jesus believed in Jonah's plight in the belly of the great fish...

...Robert, do you believe the Jonah account?


message 37: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Robert, does a huge freakin flood not perfectly explain Texas mountain fossils? Yes - 6000 years seems about right.

As a scientist, haven't you seriously looked into the claims and efforts of creation scientists? Hopefully you don't just dismiss them the way you do Biblical miracle stories. Our very conscious existence is a miracle of Biblical proportions.

You seem to have a large consistency problem in your material and spiritual reality. (But no hate here - I'm always up for talking it out with ya buddy)


message 38: by Wade (new)

Wade J. | 177 comments I'd like to highlight Rod's comment about 6000 years ...

Unlike the naturalists, Christians don't really need the world to be either young or old. Truth be told, it's an "in house" discussion among Christians and our exegesis. Whether the earth is young or old, Christ is still king.

On the other hand, naturalists MUST have an old earth, or their worldview completely shatters. And thus, naturalists cannot even consider any of the testimonies of the some of the brilliant young earth creationists.

This is very intellectually dishonest.


message 39: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Rod, Wade - actually I have read some of the works of the so- called Creation Scientists. You guys are big on buzzwords like inconsistent and intellectually dishonest, but the only thing that comes to mind with them is "taken leave of your senses."


message 40: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Rod, Wade - actually I have read some of the works of the so- called Creation Scientists. You guys are big on buzzwords like inconsistent and intellectually dishonest, but the only thing that comes..."

My response: You should be BIG ON GOD'S WORD... like Jesus is!
________________________

Matthew 12:40 - "for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster , so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Jesus believed in Jonah's plight in the belly of the great fish...

...Robert, do you believe the Jonah account?


message 41: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Robert - you are comparing a dedicated Christian who only disagrees with you on the extent the Bible represents God's Word in it's most nonsensical nooks and crannies to an avowed atheist? What's the matter with you - are you mentally ill? Do you have no proportionality? I've never accused any of the Believers I've discussed various topics over the years with of lacking faith if they profess it, only an inability to bring logic to the table. You are dealing in matters way above your pay grade when you judge my devotion. I demand an apology and suggest you return to a modicum of humility when serving the Lord.


message 42: by Wade (new)

Wade J. | 177 comments Colorado Robert ... you're not in a position to demand anything. You've spewed hatred and nastiness, and now you're demanding an apology? ... LOL ...


message 43: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Rod - sure, a giant flood would deposit detritus of all creatures who lived in it since the sea existed, but I only find traces of specimens who thrived billions of years ago. Where are the latter day denizens of the deep? Oh that's right, by a miracle they disappeared and the old ones are just scattered there to confound the Godless scientific community.


message 44: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Robert - I believe the Jonah account - he spent some time clinging to driftwood in an angry sea. That's harrowing enough without the embellishment.


message 45: by Robert (last edited Oct 19, 2017 01:45PM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Robert - I believe the Jonah account - he spent some time clinging to driftwood in an angry sea. That's harrowing enough without the embellishment."

You have just called Jesus a LIAR... how dare you say that you love Him?

You do love "Jesus"... one of the MANY FALSE christs that the REAL Jesus WARNED about.


message 46: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle "Thrived billions of years ago..."

Why aren't you empirically skeptical of this??? Common sense and all.

No Newer specimens eh? How interesting. Like 6000 years new?

But I have no desire to argue good science vs. no science on this thread. Yawwwn! You may continue believing your secular fairy tales. And I'll believe in a savior who defies death... and a guy in a fish. I'm rather consistent that way.

We are a mean bunch aren't we? Me? I'm just happy people are chatting.


message 47: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Robert buddy: how do you even begin to tell a Muslim or Mormon or Buddhist or flying buttresses Nun that they are wrong?
You seem to have a broken fractured foundation.


message 48: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Rod - yep, discussing science with someone who wouldn't know DNA from 666 is a nonstarter. My foundation is the New Covenant all gentiles have with Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is interesting from a Jewish perspective and most of it is necessary to understand the need for the Lord, but rather useless to us goys beyond that. What are you going to tell Muslims - that Jesus is the true path to salvation, but first you have to believe in talking donkeys?


message 49: by Robert (last edited Oct 23, 2017 12:49PM) (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Robert - I knew it from the beginning, but gave you some rope to hang yourself with. No surprise here, you are a member of just another cult trying to hijack Jesus. Catholics, JWs. Mormons, Charismatics, even liberals with their hippie love Jesus happily bend the Lord like silly putty to their needs. So what's your game - white supremacy? Too bad Jesus accepts all who seek him even those you hate. Come to think of it - he accepts tax collectors and bureaucrats whom I hate (oops! dislike.)


message 50: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Robert - I knew it from the beginning, but gave you some rope to hang yourself with. No surprise here, you are a member of just another cult trying to hijack Jesus. Catholics, JWs. Mormons, Charism..."

My response: LOL!!!!!! ROFL!!!!!!! Now that is SADLY FUNNY!

You REJECT God and His Word... you worship a Jesus YOU MAKE UP IN YOUR MIND... and I am a member of a cult?????

Thanks... I needed the laugh!


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Melchisedec: A Character Study (other topics)