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Feeling Nostalgic? The archives > Oh, I give up, Sarah Palin is Crazy and Dangerous -> health care reform

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message 1: by RandomAnthony (last edited Aug 08, 2009 06:14AM) (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments I tried to give her a chance, but...apparently she posted this on facebook...

As more Americans delve into the disturbing details of the nationalized health care plan that the current administration is rushing through Congress, our collective jaw is dropping, and we’re saying not just no, but hell no!

The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Health care by definition involves life and death decisions. Human rights and human dignity must be at the center of any health care discussion.

Rep. Michele Bachmann highlighted the Orwellian thinking of the president’s health care advisor, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of the White House chief of staff, in a floor speech to the House of Representatives. I commend her for being a voice for the most precious members of our society, our children and our seniors.

We must step up and engage in this most crucial debate. Nationalizing our health care system is a point of no return for government interference in the lives of its citizens. If we go down this path, there will be no turning back. Ronald Reagan once wrote, “Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we’ll ever see on this earth.” Let’s stop and think and make our voices heard before it’s too late.




message 2: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) This depresses me so much.


message 3: by smetchie (new)

smetchie | 4034 comments GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


message 4: by Donitello (new)

Donitello | 148 comments Dangerous, yes, but crazy -- I only wish I thought so.

Between the Brown Shirt-style disruptions of town hall meetings and the Orwellian quality of GOP politics in general, Palin's unlikely political super-stardom actually scares me. All of this is way too orchestrated for my taste. I do not like the tenor of these times.


message 5: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) I'm with you, Doni.


message 6: by Sally, la reina (new)

Sally (mrsnolte) | 17320 comments Mod
Why in the world do they need to paint it as such a dangerous situation?
Why does she insinuate that this administration will refuse to care for some people like the Bush administration did Katrina victims? It just makes no sense to me at all.


message 7: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) Well, everybody knows that Obama palled around with terrorists? Right? Right?


message 8: by Donitello (new)

Donitello | 148 comments Bun and Sally, you may find two documentaries quite interesting vis a vis your comments. One is "Capitol Crimes" with Bill Moyers. The other is "Bush's Brain." You can watch the first one free here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontli...

The second can be watched instantly on Netflix, if you have it.

If everyone in the US knew some of the info contained in these two docs, I suspect our political discourse would be quite different.




message 9: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) I am just a poor boy though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles, such are promises.
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, hmmmm


message 10: by Donitello (new)

Donitello | 148 comments Larry,

1) Who is that directed at?

2) What does it mean?


message 11: by RandomAnthony (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments He's quoting Simon and Garfunkel.

Li la li...


message 12: by RandomAnthony (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments What's up with all these freakouts at health care meetings, anyway? Fox News is making them out to be a big deal, but they don't seem that crowded...reminds me of the tea parties...


message 13: by Donitello (new)

Donitello | 148 comments Yes, I got that part. My questions above could be condensed into one: Why?


message 14: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) I don't explain my art, Doni.

No ... I'm kidding.


message 15: by Donitello (new)

Donitello | 148 comments This is me with Larry's post:

[image error]



message 16: by Donitello (new)

Donitello | 148 comments Do you all understand each other as well as you seem to? When did I miss the exit ramp?


message 17: by Sally, la reina (last edited Aug 08, 2009 08:45AM) (new)

Sally (mrsnolte) | 17320 comments Mod
Well, Doni, the brakes don't work in this here car and we've been driving for nearly 19 hours now on our way to see the librarian in WA. So if we speak in half-tones and insider jargon it's not because Larry is trying to be obtuse, it's that we've been in this ding dang car for so long that he just makes sense to us now.


message 18: by Félix (last edited Aug 08, 2009 09:14AM) (new)

Félix (habitseven) Thanks Sally. Yeah I'm a bit bleary-eyed. Shouldn't we have been there by now?

My point *goes ahead and explains his art anyway* was that if you put all that excellent information in front of people (see comment 10), people would only hear what they want to hear.

li le li ....


Jackie "the Librarian" | 8993 comments I've realized that politics is a lot like any internet forum. Often, instead of a substantive debate, you get wild accusations and attempts to vilify one's opponent.


message 20: by Donitello (new)

Donitello | 148 comments Larry wrote: "My point *goes ahead and explains his art anyway* was that if you put all that excellent information in front of people (see comment 10), people would only hear what they want to hear."

Usually true, yet not always. My Lai and the 1968 Democratic National Convention come to mind....




message 21: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) Not always. I know.


message 22: by Sally, la reina (new)

Sally (mrsnolte) | 17320 comments Mod
Jackie "the Librarian" wrote: "I've realized that politics is a lot like any internet forum. Often, instead of a substantive debate, you get wild accusations and attempts to vilify one's opponent."

Well put.


message 23: by RandomAnthony (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments Jackie "the Librarian" wrote: "I've realized that politics is a lot like any internet forum. Often, instead of a substantive debate, you get wild accusations and attempts to vilify one's opponent."

You're the devil who is trying to make us convert to Pan-Socialistic Communist Heathen Overthink UnAmerican Practices, huh? HUHHUHUH????

:)




message 24: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) I never would have thought of that.


message 25: by Jackie "the Librarian" (last edited Aug 08, 2009 04:01PM) (new)

Jackie "the Librarian" | 8993 comments

Yes!!! JOIN US!!!


Jackie "the Librarian" | 8993 comments I fixed it, Larry. I forgot I'd changed the keyboard settings so I could accent crème fraîche, and it screwed up the quotations.


message 27: by Sally, la reina (new)

Sally (mrsnolte) | 17320 comments Mod
RA, that was very Gary of you.


message 28: by Cosmic Sher (new)

Cosmic Sher (sherart) | 2234 comments I have to say that personally I am utterly confused on what to think about the National Healthcare... in theory I absolutely think we need one. The corporate greed and back-assward insurance companies involved is nightmarish. And when you don't have healthcare (as we don't right now) the price to stay alive is exhorbitant for those that have to rely on life-saving medications. It feels like having to pay for Mafia "life insurance" every month.

But, it seems that Obama & the govt are taking this in directions that don't make much sense to me. The point should not be to take away choices for good healthcare or make it more difficult for those who are providing it. My Dad is going to be losing 50% of what he receives from the insurance companies by September because of bad policy, and he is no living-off-the-poor kind of doctor, he is actually more like a psychoanalytic-country-doctor type who's generosity leaves him with very little in his pocket except what the insurance companies decide to pay. And now his reward for being a really good-hearted shrink is to have his financial security utterly stolen.

And, yes, I can't stand the vilification of everything Obama or Democratic or even just new. People like Palin can't understand the complexities of life enough so they bill everything they don't like or understand as "Evil". This is the exact kind of thinking that damages communication and prevents both sides from coming together to actually find a best solution to issues like these. It truly makes me wonder if those who are opposing it so vigorously had actually taken that energy and put it toward smart & innovative solutions instead of fighting it tooth & nail, maybe we would have a more solid, steady plan for our healthcare.

Sorry I'm on a rant, but as much as I am confused about what to feel on this issue, it is also something that is affecting my entire family face-to-face. It's just so frustrating.


message 29: by Cosmic Sher (new)

Cosmic Sher (sherart) | 2234 comments Oh, I didn't mean to imply it is all on one side or t'other... it's all over the place. People would much rather sling mud & epithets than sit and talk out a situation.

You said good.

::lobs a ripe tomatoe at the Palin picture::


message 30: by RandomAnthony (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments KD has a point...I agree that blanket "all republicans are crazy and dangerous" statements, and using terminology like "fascist" or "homophobe" toward anyone who questions gay marriage is out of line, too...it just doesn't do add to that particular issue's debate.

I agree with Sher in that I'm crazy f--king confused by this whole health care thing. I'm esp. confused with what would be so wrong with effective national health care. People keep using the word "socialist" like the "socialist" is hiding in your closet and going to jump out and yell "boo" in the middle of the night.


message 31: by Donitello (last edited Aug 09, 2009 02:22PM) (new)

Donitello | 148 comments What would be so wrong would, I think, be that health insurers, pharmaceuticals, and others wouldn't be able to make grotesque profits of other people's misfortunes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKI9be...

Anyone see the Daily Show interview on the above video? Elizabeth Edwards said that $1 out of every $700 Americans pay into healthcare is spent paying the salary of the president of United Healthcare!!

People in the US wonder "where the money would come from" to pay for nationalized healthcare. The money is there, and already being spent. It's just not being spent on care.

1) Top people in this for-profit industry make obscene salaries. 2) Pharmaceuticals are priced in the stratosphere (as evidenced by the way $70 meds suddenly cost $5 when their patents expire). 3) Administrative costs eat up, I think 30% of expenditures. 4) Because they're competing with each other, insurance companies and hospitals alike have to spend big bucks in marketing. 5) Again, because of competition, each hospital has to own its OWN expensive equipment -- even if one machine would serve the whole community -- just so it can advertise that it has "state of the art care." 6) Malpractice and other lawsuits happen much more here, IMO a fact stemming from the deep distrust and anger of an abused public. 7) Out of fear of malpractice suits (or sometimes because they own interest in the clinics), doctors often call for unnecessary tests; and note that this is particularly done with INSURED patients.

Cosmic Sher, it sounds as if your father is one of the many doctors who are not profiting from our system. In fact, I am bemused by people who, in agreeing that the system is abusive, point immediately to doctors! It's like there's this collective unconsciousness about the reality of corporate greed. We are "confused" as to why good healthcare is so difficult.

Edit: Cosmic Sher


message 32: by Donitello (new)

Donitello | 148 comments Sally wrote: "Well, Doni, the brakes don't work in this here car and we've been driving for nearly 19 hours now on our way to see the librarian in WA. So if we speak in half-tones and insider jargon it's not be..."

I goldurned hate when that happens.




message 33: by [deleted user] (new)

I'm no Palin, but it always scares me when the senate tries to pass something that they haven't read and analyzed thoroughly. By this time, I would hope most of them had, but when it first went up to the House, no one had really had a chance. If I'm wrong on that, please let me know.


message 34: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) You're wrong. There is no one "something" to have read yet. There are 5 Senate bills in development, each different from the other.


message 35: by Misha (new)

Misha (ninthwanderer) Kaiser Family Foundation has a side-by-side comparison of health care proposals here:

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/sideb...

I've been trying to wade through all of this to write an article about how reform proposals will affect local consumers in my area. It's not an easy task.


message 36: by Sally, la reina (new)

Sally (mrsnolte) | 17320 comments Mod
Deleted Member wrote: "it always scares me when the senate tries to pass something that they haven't read and analyzed thoroughly"


It always does? When else have you been scared of the senate passing a particular bill? And how do you know that they haven't been reading carefully/analyzing the document?


message 37: by RandomAnthony (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments I think they're supposed to be read the different versions over summer recess. It's like homework.


message 38: by Donitello (new)

Donitello | 148 comments As I understand it, that's a pretty regular occurrence. Did I read that, or did I see it on a special report on TV? Anyway, apparently many bills are tens to scores of pages long, and the point was that if legislators read them all they'd never have time to vote on them. I remember wondering, "How can this be? Don't they have aids to read and brief them on the bills? And if not, why not??"

Anybody else know more about this?


message 39: by Misha (new)

Misha (ninthwanderer) The health care bill that passed out of the Senate HELP committee is 1,000 pages long. Legislators get reports that summarize the bills. I can't remember how long the report for the HELP committee bill was -- 40 or 50 pages? I have it saved as a PDF on my work computer.


message 40: by RandomAnthony (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments Why? Are you looking for light reading, Misha? You gonna take it to the beach?


message 41: by Misha (new)

Misha (ninthwanderer) I'm a journalist who writes about politics and health care. This pretty much encompasses all of the above. :)


message 42: by RandomAnthony (new)

RandomAnthony | 14536 comments Ok, Misha...if you're gonna read that document, you need to explain it to us, twitter-style:)


message 43: by Sally, la reina (new)

Sally (mrsnolte) | 17320 comments Mod
Wow. Just, wow.

I feel like I just discovered that our country is run by a bunch of twats who don't read.


message 44: by Félix (last edited Aug 09, 2009 09:04AM) (new)

Félix (habitseven) Yup, Sally. It's called democracy.


message 45: by Sally, la reina (new)

Sally (mrsnolte) | 17320 comments Mod
*writhes*



No, I was aware of how this runs. I once went to a senate subcomittee meeting with my friend in DC who was working as an assistant for some kind of ... er... political activist lawyer?
Anyway - it was a whole day briefing on some bill. We were only there for half a day, but they were reading through, subsection by subsection.

See, in my ideal mental USA government, all bills would be ten words or less, and would be printed on giant pieces of paper titled "bill" and passed around rolled up in a red ribbon.




message 46: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) Yeah, if only ....


message 47: by Misha (new)

Misha (ninthwanderer) I'm just a bill, sittin' here on Capitol Hill.


message 48: by Sally, la reina (new)

Sally (mrsnolte) | 17320 comments Mod
Yay! It's been stuck in my head since after I posted that.


message 49: by Misha (new)

Misha (ninthwanderer) It's been stuck in my head since 1976.


message 50: by Félix (new)

Félix (habitseven) There really aren't any good brainwashing services anymore. *he lamented*


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