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Feminism > KAROL CONKA - Lalá - song about female sexual pleasure

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message 1: by Emma (new)

Emma Clement (emmatclement) | 1764 comments A friend of mine in Brazil told me about this, which I find interesting. There's a Brazilian rapper, Karol Conka, who wrote a song about female oral sex, which is becoming a hymn to women in Brazil. It's a feminist song about female sexual pleasure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_veX...

A friend translated the lyrics to English from Portuguese to me:

naughty, very wet, while I smoke weed

La la la, lick me there
La la la, lick me, lick me, lick me there

It's unbelievable! They get inaction
When we know what we want and we demand it
You have to know how to do it or you'll upset me
Equality in pleasure rights, more understanding

This is not here as a decoration piece
Find your way, get comfortable
Don't be fake, so go on and lay down
If I want it, respect it

You turned me off
Got me confused
You talk too much, but when it's time to do it your action doesn't correspond to what you say

Don't even start, I'm just someone with experience and knows what I have
I saw so many men full of themselves thinking they did well

My friends agree with me too
You can go further
If you don't apply yourself you'll get rid of a harem

Bow down, touch your lips on the flower
Break this taboo, it's not any favor

What turns me on are your licking abilities
Naughty, very wet as I smoke weed

Any thoughts on this? While I think some parts of it are quite crude, I do like how it is getting ideas of female sexual pleasure out there, and I think it is a step in the right direction!


message 2: by Monica (new)

Monica | 16 comments First of all, I hope I translated everything right, using similar expressions in informality.

I agree with you. She uses vulgar expressions and the video is very graphic. But I do like the fact that this song is being commented and discussed a lot. Oral sex on women and female sexual pleasure is a taboo here in Brazil. Almost 50% of Brazilian women, according to a research I've read recently, say that they don't feel sexually satisfied during relations with their partners.

Talking about sex among mothers and daughters is a taboo for a lot of families here. My family, for instance, is very close-minded about that. My mother has never talked about sex with me and she didn't want to take me to my gynecologist when I was a teen.

So, a song like this, that reaches a lot of Brazilian people is an opportunity to discuss the female sexuality.

And I think it goes well with "The Handmaid's Tale". At least, it does as far as I've read it.


message 3: by Gerd (last edited Jul 08, 2017 09:44AM) (new)

Gerd | 379 comments Think the same I think of other songs in that direction, it comes off very demeaning to the hypothetical sex partner, IMO.

I do like another song (which I didn't like at all back when) a wee bit better:

Let's talk about sex

At least it includes the idea of talking about it, not just demanding it.


message 4: by Emma (new)

Emma Clement (emmatclement) | 1764 comments Monica wrote: "First of all, I hope I translated everything right, using similar expressions in informality.

I agree with you. She uses vulgar expressions and the video is very graphic. But I do like the fact th..."


I agree, I see a big connection with "The Handmaid's Tale" and this song! They are both great opportunities to discuss sexuality with females.

Gerd wrote: "Think the same I think of other songs in that direction, it comes off very demeaning to the hypothetical sex partner, IMO.

I do like another song (which I didn't like at all back when) a wee bit b..."


Ooh, I like that song! Another great opportunity to discuss sex and sexuality.


message 5: by Monica (new)

Monica | 16 comments Gerd wrote: "Think the same I think of other songs in that direction, it comes off very demeaning to the hypothetical sex partner, IMO.

I do like another song (which I didn't like at all back when) a wee bit b..."


That song is great!!!It does make us talk about sex and discuss it.

The Brazilian song makes me think about how demanding and rude she was. I like the idea, not the execution.


message 6: by Georgios (last edited Jul 08, 2017 06:19PM) (new)

Georgios Right.

I cannot believe how far off songs have gone these days. They are supposed to be art, but all they do is talk about fukcing, smoking drugs and all that kind of stuff. Cannot get any lower than this sorry.

Where did all the good artists go? Where did all the poets go? Is this new generation gonna produce a new Jim Morrison or are gonna be stuck with Justin Bieber?

How much longer are you gonna stick outrageous, lewd and offensive lyrics to music and call them "Songs"?

Serioulsy, where are the Pink Floyd of this generation? Where is your Janice Joplin, Annie Lennox, Bruce Spingsteen, Queen and Elton John, Sting, Deep Purple, Doors? Where are all your artists and music makers?

Swallowed by the offensive gangasta rap and hip hop lyrics that MTV is dishing out for art. Well... MTV has turned the new generation to trash eaters when it comes to Music. Exactly the same way McDonalds has done in food.

I will challenge any single member one of this current generation. They bring me a song by a Generation Z(ombie) artist, and I will match it up with a better one by an artist of the previous generations (X,Y, boomers). And then we will discuss the damage that MTV has done to art.


message 7: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1427 comments We should make this the official OSS anthem. Show the progress we have made. It's about liberation a natural act. In an equal world it would be sung openly. So why not.

MTV is great there recent awards were gender neutral and recognized a talent we know well on OSS ;)


message 8: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 743 comments Mod
See, to me this is a statement of sorts rather than a song. :) May I remind you all, however, that we have some very explicit lyrics in the reggaeton that blasts in clubs worldwide every weekend? Those are frowned upon by those of us who would rather listen to what we define as 'actual' music, yet it's difficult to find people who stop dancing at said club because the lyrics made them think 'ugh this is so explicit, I can't even.' Interestingly enough, these are almost always sung by men or else women have a very marked role in them.

If I have to be perfectly honest, the execution, as someone put it above, is a bit too crude for my personal taste. However, I too see the value in videos and messages like these reaching societies that are otherwise pretty conservative / in need of a debate. It's sort of like what the Pussy Riot were back in the day in Russia. Do I see what they do as music? Hmmm. As I said above, not exactly. But the means of expression that they chose to portray their message allowed it to spread more easily and enabled some debate along the controversy.

If Conka's Lalá is doing that, my musical taste set aside, I say it's not that bad. :)


message 9: by Helen (new)

Helen (helen2U) | 287 comments I don't have a problem with women being explicit about what they want, they should know for f**k sake, otherwise you wouldn't be happy. It's a great way to start the conversation, see men don't have issues talking about what they like, whereas women hold back. It's a great statement this song, sure they are not Toni Morrison or Maya Angelou or Gloria Steinem poetic but it gets the point across.


message 10: by Georgios (new)

Georgios Ana wrote: "If Conka's Lalá is doing that, my musical taste set aside, I say it's not that bad."

Ermmm no. What its really doing is to decrease your tolerance on what it is obscene and offensive. At the end they can serve you with whatever obscene and offensive crap they want, pass it for art and make a buck.

What happens next is that you start thinking tallentless nude women who wear too much makeup are actually artists and they have a message to give. Nope they just want to make a buck because they are cheap.

Now if you want to talk about songs and video clips that have a message by contemporarz artists, why dont we talk about Katy Perry? All her video clips have a plot and a message that point towards female empowerment,

There are A LOT of songs that talk about female sexual empowerment. When I say a lot I mean a lot. These songs are widely accepted and they have created discussions before. Why do we have to accept obscentity as art and put it at the same level as actual art?

Art is supposed to educate. Would you accept an obsenity spouting teacher in a school to teach kids? Why should we accept this song then. Would you be ok for an 5 year old to hear the lyrics of this song and then repeating them non stop inside your house, or to his 5 year old friends, or singing them in front of a strange looking man? How do you limit the exposure of underaged people to this kind of filth, even before their parents had "the talk"? How do you preserve a child's Innocence with this kind of trash going around? Its gonna be playing on the radios you know.

Thats what the exreme commercialisation of MTV did to music as an art. Patty Smith would not be noticed in this era because she would not oversexualise herself and she did not look like she was able to achieve multiple orgasms on queue. I mean look at all these new female artists. I am not the one to complain about a woman being beautiful and sexual (Katy Perry <3 <3 <3) but most of them look like proffesional porn stars rather than singers. And dont get me wrong. I actually like some porn starts. But there is a time and a place where you can see them.

The hypercommercialisation of the music as an art made it an industry and it has led it to become far less than it is. It's sex that sells and because of that female singers are hypersexualised. That song is a byproduct of female hypersexualisation, as a means to sell, not a way to discuss a feminist point of view Do not justify it by going to the "The end justifies the means" mentality. This way it wil lead to even more wrong results.


message 11: by Emma (new)

Emma Clement (emmatclement) | 1764 comments Helen wrote: "I don't have a problem with women being explicit about what they want, they should know for f**k sake, otherwise you wouldn't be happy. It's a great way to start the conversation, see men don't hav..."

I totally agree!


message 12: by James (new)

James Corprew | 547 comments Georgios wrote: "Where did all the good artists go? Where did all the poets go? Is this new generation gonna produce a new Jim Morrison or are gonna be stuck with Justin Bieber?

How much longer are you gonna stick outrageous, lewd and offensive lyrics to music and call them "Songs"?

Serioulsy, where are the Pink Floyd of this generation? Where is your Janice Joplin, Annie Lennox, Bruce Spingsteen, Queen and Elton John, Sting, Deep Purple, Doors? Where are all your artists and music makers? "


Great list of artists there but keep in mind personal taste is all subjective. While i dont listen to hip hop, rap, or dance music outside of a song here or there i dont worry about what an artist chooses to convey in their music because at the end of the day i can choose to listen to it or simply ignore it. Personally i cant remember the last time ive ever listened to mainstream radio, even at work i just plug in my ipod but god forbid if people heard the lyrics to some of the music i listen to. They probably would shit themselves. lol


message 13: by MeerderWörter (last edited Jul 09, 2017 08:59AM) (new)

MeerderWörter | 2290 comments Georgios wrote: "Ana wrote: "If Conka's Lalá is doing that, my musical taste set aside, I say it's not that bad."

Ermmm no. What its really doing is to decrease your tolerance on what it is obscene and offensive. ..."


Sometimes drastic means are necessary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1zaK...

You're not gonna like me for the song I think, but we need to talk about sexual pleasure. In a way that is not heteronormative!


message 14: by Georgios (new)

Georgios James wrote: "Great list of artists there but keep in mind personal taste is all subjective. While i dont listen to hip hop, rap, or dance music outside of a song here or there i dont worry about what an artist chooses to convey in their music because at the end of the day i can choose to listen to it or simply ignore it. Personally i cant remember the last time ive ever listened to mainstream radio, even at work i just plug in my ipod but god forbid if people heard the lyrics to some of the music i listen to. They probably would shit themselves. lol"

Hang on a second there. How much of a choice do they give the General Public when all they are pushing through radio is... crap?

I mean this has just recently came out. Have you seen it?

Letter to Annie Lennox

A radio producer sent a letter to Annie Lennox telling her that she is willing to help her become a star because she liked her music. Annie Lennox, to become a Star. lol.

I mean come on. The radio and television is so dominated by the music industry that young people do not even know who Annie Lennox is! This is where you say WTF?

I will add something else. Where did all the lyricism and melody go? Where did all the poetic lyrics go?

How long since we have seen anything like this?

src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHNa_...



message 15: by James (new)

James Corprew | 547 comments Georgios wrote: "James wrote: "Great list of artists there but keep in mind personal taste is all subjective. While i dont listen to hip hop, rap, or dance music outside of a song here or there i dont worry about w..."

Are you saying you dont have the ability to change a station? Channel? Are you physically forced to watch ridiculous television like the Kardashians? I wont disagree with the notion that i find a lot of mainstream music un-listenable. But that is just a personal preference, not something that i am being forced to listen to or watch.

As far as the Lennox thing, i remember not too long ago some members of the Black Keyes were inducting Steve Miller into the Rock n Roll HOF and Miller basically insulted them by saying "Who?" While its it is shocking that anyone in the music industry would have no idea of who Lennox is it really doesnt have any relevance to what is going on with modern music.

Its not like im aware of all the modern artists that are out there myself.

This topic has been discussed before and im as adamant now as i was then. When you try to silence people from having a voice you then become the enemy of people's civil rights and freedoms. Disliking what someone sings about lyrically is one thing, trying to silence them is something else entirely. I dont have to agree with lyrical content that is sung, but i would never try to tell them they cant sing about it. Such is the case regarding the song that we are discussing now.


message 16: by Cailee (new)

Cailee | 8 comments The vulgarity is so raw, so honest. I love it. Women have a right to express their desires just as men do, and we need to get rid of the taboo label. I think it's about time sexual pleasure is accepted as a matter of human nature for both sexes/all genders.

Art allows people to share their feelings, emotions, experiences, wants, needs, etc freely. It functions as an opportunity to start conversations that need to be had. I respect and appreciate any artist that takes initiative in pursuing those conversations, whether the approach is 'pretty' or not.


message 17: by Georgios (last edited Jul 09, 2017 01:59PM) (new)

Georgios James wrote: "Are you saying you dont have the ability to change a station? Channel? Are you physically forced to watch ridiculous television like the Kardashians? I wont disagree with the notion that i find a lot of mainstream music un-listenable. But that is just a personal preference, not something that i am being forced to listen to or watch. "

I do. As i matter of fact i have not watched the Kardashians like... ever. And if it comes to television I have simply removed MTV off my list, as with any channel that will put a reality TV show.

However I do believe that material that become available to minors should and must be cencored and no its not a matter of freedom here. I mean if a song is played on public radio minors will be subject to listening to it. What this happens they start assuming from an early age that this is the normal. When they grow up they will expecting the boundaries to be pushed. What will be next? Fucking on stage? Well thats for sex shows. And how much distance is there between a sex show and a music show when Miley Cyrous (someone with considerable talent actually) gets to do this on stage? I may have the judgement to change the channel. But does a 12 year old? What impression does that create to a 15 year old? Have you seen this advertisement by Monique Alexander? She is absolutely right. The porn industry will give teenagers the wrong impression about sex, and their access to Porn is restricted. What happens when you actually blur the line so much that the music industry becomes almost indistiguishable from the adult industry?

What happens when you open such doors to minors? Maybe such pictures will become a reality in the west because we will have become immune to it?

Is it trully a choice when they treat you like a consumer, and as such they do not want you getting away from the choices they have made for you? The music industry is set up in such a way that young people consume whatever they will push to them.

And there are several other questions that need answering here. Is it still art when it has been so heavily commercialised? I mean I have seen female singers that have absolutely no voice, that they need a second and third voice behind them to even make simple lyrics stand, but they are at the epicenter because they look hot and they are willing to do obscene things on stage. Whats more they recieve the treatment that a True Diva like Barbra Streisand or Liza Minelli would get. I mean if you take a look at that last link its highly sexualised but the song is highly artistic, melodic and to be honest its fun.

Compare that with Mrs Watson, because she can actually sing very well (I am not Ross so you can take my word for it). Is this fair for talented people?

The music industry is an industry driven by profit. As such it has killed music as an art. And it has done damage to society as a whole. But thats what happens when your guide is greed and your aim and objective is to make a buck no matter the cost.

Bonus Link


message 18: by James (new)

James Corprew | 547 comments Georgios wrote: "And it has done damage to society as a whole."

Interestingly enough, they have been saying that since Elvis Presley took the stage. If you are going to point fingers at the music industry for the fall of mankind you may want to go back further than modern music. I lived through the 70's and 80's and saw the same fear that you are exhibiting here. It was this same kind of fear that lead Tipper Gore to form the PMRC only to show it had zero relevance at all on the development of people. I grew up on the very music they tried to censor and im just fine. In fact, i listen to music that with some bands lyrically are a lot worse than the song posted above yet im not a deviant.

You seem to be debating two separate issues though. Are you concerned with lyrically content or just quality of music? If you are debating the quality of music than that is nothing more than personal preference for yourself. If you are concerned about lyrical content than by all technical terms your axe to grind goes deeper (or should) than just mainstream music. But then again you and i would be vastly on different ends of that spectrum as i would view you nothing more than the enemy of freedom of expression.

If a 12-15 year old teen is interested in Miley Cyrus, Katy Perry, Madonna, Jay Z, 50 Cent, etc and there are concerns about the message in the music than its up to the parents to actually guide their children with the things they are interested in. While the industry is driven by profit if the consumer need is there than they will simply give the public what it wants. But the need as you say to make a profit has been going on for many years now, it didnt just happen over night.

And lastly, who do you think should dictate what is acceptable and not acceptable in terms of artistic expression? And where do you think it should end? What happens when people decide that talking in groups such as this is harming their children because they are offended? You have to be careful when trying to open Pandora's box because once you do it becomes a very slippery slope.


message 19: by Georgios (last edited Jul 09, 2017 03:27PM) (new)

Georgios James wrote: "I lived through the 70's and 80's and saw the same fear that you are exhibiting here."

Its not the same. Absolutely not. We have progressed a lot since then. People do not have the same mindset. Back then they were very conservative. Besides back then what they were trying to sell was still music. Now they are not trying to sell music. They are trying to sell hypersexualised icons. And by doing that they are killing music.

Now if I am debating lyrical content. Yes I am. I believe its lost in this generation and Generations are defined by their art and artists. So if they have somehow lost the value of poetry and lyricism yes thats something to be concerned with. There has been no Generation in history that dis not value poetry. And Generation Z opinion on the matter seems to be "poe... what?"

Now lets discuss the freedom of expression issue. First of all I am in favour of freedom of expression. But this has its limits. What if some "artist" decided to start slaughter live animals on stage as a sacrifice to the Gods? Would that not be offensive? Are there not any laws that prohibit violence and cruelty against animals?

What if Miley Cyrus or some other "Performed" decided to have live sex in a show that included minors. Would that not break any laws?

So yes you are saying freedom of expression but there are laws in every country that ensure that you have freedom. Unlimited freedom does not exist, because your actual freedom ends where the rights of others beggin. So when an "artist" tramples with their percieved "freedom of expression" my own rights and challenges my morality yes I will speak up and condemn it as I have every right to do so. And as I said: Laws define very very well what it is legal and what is not.

James wrote: "If a 12-15 year old teen is interested in Miley Cyrus, Katy Perry, Madonna, Jay Z, 50 Cent, etc and there are concerns about the message in the music than its up to the parents to actually guide their children with the things they are interested in. While the industry is driven by profit if the consumer need is there than they will simply give the public what it wants. But the need as you say to make a profit has been going on for many years now, it didnt just happen over night. "

Oh that thing about parental guidance again. Well that would have been easy if the only experiences a minor had would be from inside the family. However thats not the case. Children and teemangers go to school, they have friends they go out. They recieve information and input from many other sources and in most cases the parents have no idea about and so they are not even able to deal with them effectively. Besides what makes you think that even an adult will be able to distinguish properly if something is good for a child or not? Also what makes you think that a child or a minor will be properly supervised? Did you see the add of Monique Alexander? She stated that 90% of children younger than the age of 11 will have come to contact with hardcore porn. It's not possible for 90% of people to be bad parents. And its not reasonable to impose unwarranted restrictions to a child. What this means is that its impossible to screen everything that a child or a minor will see.

And you know what? If you think the hypersexualisation is something that must be performed then its all right and fine with me. But you will do it at the proper time zone. And you will make sure that what you are transmitting is not being watched by minors. I refuse to allow their Greed to shape the future generations morality.

James wrote: "And lastly, who do you think should dictate what is acceptable and not acceptable in terms of artistic expression? And where do you think it should end? "

As I said. There are very very good laws in place to protect minors. We should stick to them and if needed discuss them again. But this unlimited restrictions, no rules, everything goes, as long as it pays mentality has to end. Freedom of expression is not licence to be lewd and offensive. Rules HAVE to apply. If you do not apply rules then you allowing for violation of everyone else's rights.


Pictures of home
I Watched DP last year here in Germany. Brilliant. Just Brilliant.


message 20: by Emma (new)

Emma Clement (emmatclement) | 1764 comments James wrote: "Georgios wrote: "And it has done damage to society as a whole."

Interestingly enough, they have been saying that since Elvis Presley took the stage. If you are going to point fingers at the music ..."


Well said, I totally agree. With each new wave of music, art, etc - people express themselves in a new way, and every time there is pushback against it (just because it is different and "wrong"). Art and music have been parts of human life as long as there has been human life. Change is inevitable - art and music will continually change as society changes, and fighting that is futile.


message 21: by Andrey (new)

Andrey Svintsov (Andrey1912) | 35 comments I think pleasure is awarded to each as he likes it. Someone from work gets fun.


message 22: by Andrey (new)

Andrey Svintsov (Andrey1912) | 35 comments But there are classical music, classic literature, who will always listen and read.


message 23: by Georgios (new)

Georgios Emma wrote: "Well said, I totally agree. With each new wave of music, art, etc - people express themselves in a new way, and every time there is pushback against it (just because it is different and "wrong"). Art and music have been parts of human life as long as there has been human life. Change is inevitable - art and music will continually change as society changes, and fighting that is futile."

Back then there was something to push for change. There was an issue of freedom of expression. Right now it's not an issue of Freedom of speexh and expression. It's the issue of making a profit. That's their guide. And you are taking the bate. And you are swallowing it wholesale. They are treating the new Generation like fools and they end behaving like fools. And for what? For Greed, for making a buck.

I oppose that. And I do not care how many mantles you take, "Freedom of truth", "progressive", "change" etc. None of these are true. Its Greed that is hiding behind that, and the need to make unispiring artists sell. Because lets face it if they were inspiring they would be inspiring with their clothes on. And trust me I do enjoy the sight of a nude woman. I am not the pushback. You are not progress. You simply being taken advantage by having your money taken by second and third rate unispiring artists, their producers and their companies.

What would have Miley Cyrus be without all the lewd behaviour? Nothing. Just another singer with a good voice nothing more. What all these new performers would be with their clothes on? Second or third rate performers who none would notice, because their music and their lyrics is unispiring.

It all comes down to commercialisation NOT freedom of expression.

There is a very good rule that seperates an artist from the trash. Which one of these songs will be remembered and be still be played in the radios in 5 or 10 years time. My guess is none. Well... actually Wrecking Ball was a damn brilliant song, ruined by a stupid video.


message 24: by Gerd (last edited Jul 10, 2017 01:44AM) (new)

Gerd | 379 comments MeerderWörter wrote: "You're not gonna like me for the song I think, but we need to talk about sexual pleasure. In a way that is not heteronormative! ..."

Like that song. It has a good sense of humour.


I do prefer the 80's style of dealing with sex, in songs like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzA-V...

Where as the sexual message in this one, I admit it, went right over my head:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCpz3...


However, Conka ranges for me in line with lyrics like these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u96t...

It's, IMO, not about sexual pleasure, this is what porn is about.
Just doesn't sync with my high ideals of intercourse. :)

Edit:
Oh, how about that song "I touch myself" - never heard it, but they did talk about it on Buffy and I did mean to look it up ... someday.
Had to add this, seeing how Relax for obvious reasons reminded me of that scene from the show.


message 25: by James (last edited Jul 10, 2017 03:13AM) (new)

James Corprew | 547 comments Gerd wrote: ".Oh, how about that song "I touch myself" - never heard it, but they did talk about it on Buffy and I did mean to look it up ... someday."

I think you are talking about this song (which is great by the way) and at the time caused a bit of a stir. Here is an article with the song and more about how it was received.

http://people.com/celebrity/i-touch-m...

I especially liked #2 on the list.

"2. And the song has since been held up as an anthem of empowerment"

"Notably the video for the song – filmed in a nunnery in Pasadena, California – was banned in the Divinyls’ native Australia. But as a 2013 Cosmopolitan essay about Amphlett notes, the song and Amphlett deserve to be celebrated: “In a world where female sexuality and masturbation is still widely feared and demonized, we need to pay some major respect to the brave women who empower us. ‘I Touch Myself’ is not just a party song, but also an emboldened call-to-action. Amphlett reminded us that we are in control of our own bodies and pleasure, and there is no shame in that game.”


message 26: by Georgios (last edited Jul 10, 2017 05:02AM) (new)

Georgios Gerd wrote: "
Like that song. It has a good sense of humour.


I do prefer the 80's style of dealing with sex, in songs like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzA-V...

Where as the sexual message in this one, I admit it, went right over my head:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCpz3..."


These were actully very artistic. Relax will play even today in radios because its a damn good tune. Also keep in mind that these songs came out a long time ago when it was still problematic to come out with such a message. And for that they have my respect, both as artists and as people.

However today its different. They are doing it not because they want to progress society but 100% because thats what sells and they want to make a buck.

I will however, insist at the fact that today lyricism and poetry has been lost from todays songs and music. I find that this the biggest damage done to mankind as a whole from commericialised music industry. Why?

Poets are the dreamweavers of their generation. They create the visions of their generation. Without them cynism sets in, denying vision, hope and collective growth potential. While poetry is not read by many, poems made into songs are sang by millions again and again and again, even through the generations. By allowing cynism to take over the new generations, all we are telling them is, that all they are is "fuck, eat, shit" like cattle and sheep bred for economic purposes. This cannot, SHOULD NOT happen. Bring back poetry in music and songs. Give the young people a vision for their lives.

Thats all i am saying.


message 27: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 379 comments James wrote: "I think you are talking about this song (whi..."

That was enlightening, thanks.
Don't now the band, but then I'm not that much of a nineties man and I guess the song wasn't that widely spread in Europe.

Didn't know Cindy Lauper's "She-bop" was about that topic, who'd a have thought?


message 28: by Aline (new)

Aline Bronkhorst (alinebronkhorst) | 3 comments Monica wrote: "First of all, I hope I translated everything right, using similar expressions in informality.

I agree with you. She uses vulgar expressions and the video is very graphic. But I do like the fact th..."


Indeed sexuality is not a very discussed topic in Brazil. Perhaps among close friends (as I do) but it's still a taboo.
Female sexuality is even less discussed.

When I first watched the video a few days ago, my reaction was: "Finally someone is talking about this!". And I think that the moment in Brazil couldn't be better.

After years of males dominating the musical scene, the numbers of women succeeding is increasing and Karol Conka is just of many others (from sertanejo - the Brazilian 'country music', MPB - Brazilian popular music to funk). And Karol Conká is not the only one talking about female issues.

And, even though it may seem crude and offensive to some it is very important that somebody is starting the discussion, isn't it?
The video has already over 3 million views and we are here discussing it as are many others.


message 29: by Emma (last edited Jul 10, 2017 09:01AM) (new)

Emma Clement (emmatclement) | 1764 comments Aline wrote: "Monica wrote: "First of all, I hope I translated everything right, using similar expressions in informality.

I agree with you. She uses vulgar expressions and the video is very graphic. But I do l..."


I love how you say "And, even though it may seem crude and offensive to some it is very important that somebody is starting the discussion, isn't it?" I totally agree!! Well said, well said! That's my exact feelings on the matter, and why I am happy I started this thread!


message 30: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2290 comments Gerd wrote: " Like that song. It has a good sense of humour."

I really like Sookee's songs, man, she takes a piss at right-wing radicals;) Ne Queerfeministin eben;) A queerfeminist, that's what she is;)


message 31: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2290 comments Aline wrote: "Monica wrote: "First of all, I hope I translated everything right, using similar expressions in informality.

I agree with you. She uses vulgar expressions and the video is very graphic. But I do l..."


One stone makes water wavy, many stones make it only more so.


message 32: by Georgios (last edited Jul 11, 2017 01:32AM) (new)

Georgios MeerderWörter wrote: "One stone makes water wavy, many stones make it only more so.

You do agree to viewpoint that "The end justifies the means". It is true then. You are evil.


message 33: by Emma (new)

Emma Clement (emmatclement) | 1764 comments Georgios wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "One stone makes water wavy, many stones make it only more so.

You do agree to viewpoint that "The end justifies the means". It is true then. You are evil."


Please don't call out OSS members as "evil" or resort to other name-calling. Let's be civil without reporting to personal attacks.


message 34: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2290 comments Georgios wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "One stone makes water wavy, many stones make it only more so.

You do agree to viewpoint that "The end justifies the means". It is true then. You are evil."


First, Emma said it already and I definitely don't think that the end justifies the means. The means make the end, that is what I believe in!


message 35: by Georgios (new)

Georgios Emma wrote: "Please don't call out OSS members as "evil" or resort to other name-calling. Let's be civil without reporting to personal attacks."

Please refrain from acting like an administrator. You are not one.

MeerderWörter wrote: "The means make the end, that is what I believe in!"

"The means justify the cause" Means that you will use whatever means necessary to justify a cause.

"The means make the cause"? Does this mean that you adjust the cause to the means? Moving goalpost kind of mentality? "Well we cannot really get there, but we can get to this other place so that's good enough" Thats equally disturbing if you ask me. It shows no real cause.

Here is another good song. Second half with english lyrics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THs0V...


message 36: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2290 comments How you advocate for something, so will be the goal. If you use violence, the outcome will be violent too.


message 37: by Robert (last edited Jul 11, 2017 10:20AM) (new)

Robert Smart | 250 comments What the holy hell is going on in here! LOL! ;)).

I would go so far as to say that as in the way societies have changed over different periods of time the music, film, photography, comedy and so on and so fourth in the end changed to fit whatever "need" exists at that particular time of there creation.

How many young minds were warped by Eddie Murphy in his stand ups of "Delirious" or "Raw"?

How up in arms were people when Madonna performed "Like A Virgin" rolling around on stage in a white wedding dress?
https://youtu.be/AFiwFKDyp8A

How many religious groups were pissed at her again when she released "Like A Prayer"?
https://youtu.be/79fzeNUqQbQ

Shall I go on.

Push the envelope of tolerance with "Papa Don't Preach"!
https://youtu.be/RkxqxWgEEz4

As in multiple statements made above.
Who is responsible for deciding what is right or wrong for a child if a parent is unable or unwilling to interject themselves? And what right do THEY have to do so?

Should we just keep making more and more laws and create the illusion that they work and we are better with them in place?

This folds into another discussion where an OSS member told a 12 year old that they were too young to read some of the book topics presented here.

There are many different variables of the same inherent topic.

I have an apartment building in Lawrence Mass. I lived there for three years myself. Upon my arrival to the "war zone" there were 5 and 6 year old children unsupervised all day long everyday walking up and down the street yelling explicit obscenities at each other. And I repeat unsupervised as in no parents watching their own young children on a narrow one way street while teenagers drag raced in their souped up cars. Gun shots behind my house! Hypodermic needles laying around! Where were the laws and enforcement there?
Nothing has changed it's still the same now as it was then.

This is NO different. It boils down to education and parental involvement and guidance. You can't expect that just because there is a "LAW" against something that all will be right and okay.

And you can't throw into the mix "Oh that is too offensive" so we need to have a law against it!

Again. What is the cutoff point to that? Who deems what is "Too offensive"? And again what right do they have to classify it that for the rest of us?

I know the original topic in this thread may have been morphed into something else over the period of replies. I believe this song and video has every right to exist and be seen by whomever!

In the end it boils down to the simple fact that just like when we were all children, if we wanted to find a way to see, hear or do something in the end there is not a DAMN thing any parent, law and so on was or is going to do or say to stop it! PERIOD!


message 38: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Hey Georgios what if it isn't your right to deem what is appropriate or not? What if you aren't the universal arbitrator on what other people can enjoy or think or feel?

It's music whether you like it or not.

Who cares if Conka is doing it for art or just for money? She's clearly found some level of success. I hope it's doing exactly what she wants to do. It's awesome that it come from Brazil and not just another Western Euro country. It's empowering strictly on the fact that SHE is doing it. It's additionally encouraging that it's from a different country.

Judgey Georgie is hardly the bar. All people will have their own tastes. Trying to contain them within your own cultural structure is nothing more than intolerance. And if you're white and male, it's oppressive, because that's what white males have been doing since the Industrial Revolution (ish)


message 39: by Georgios (new)

Georgios MeerderWörter wrote: "How you advocate for something, so will be the goal. If you use violence, the outcome will be violent too."

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3!

Winston wrote: "blah."

Winston you little fascist: All people have a right to an opinion. If you do not like mine i really really DO NOT CARE. I will voice my opinion as it is my given right.

Also to get the record straight. I do not like the wording of your sentences towards me. Why? I am much more educated than you are at least professionally. Chances are that I am more educated than you are in literature too. I also have much more life experience than you do. Oh and I am also making my own money and I am indipendant, whereas you probaly rely on the money of your parents at least to some degree.

Therefore I have earned the right to be properly adressed by you even if you do not like what I am saying. Talk to a person the same way you would talk to them in real life. Because I know and YOU know that you are only able to talk to me with such impudence because you are hiding behind a computer screen.

Also cut the feminist crap. You and me know that you are no feminist and all your arguments are what you think people want to hear. Remember that remark you made about "male voices silencing a womens voices" in a thread that was about male voices? That told me what I wanted to know about your reasons for being here.


message 40: by Georgios (new)

Georgios Winston wrote: "Judgey Georgie"

Right.


message 41: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Georgios wrote: "I am indipendant"

you most certainly are!


message 42: by Georgios (last edited Jul 11, 2017 02:06PM) (new)

Georgios Robert wrote: "I would go so far as to say that as in the way societies have changed over different periods of time the music, film, photography, comedy and so on and so fourth in the end changed to fit whatever "need" exists at that particular time of there creation."

Societies are changed by art. Art is, among other things, subtle if we are talking about powerful art it also utilises symbolism properly. Symbolism is a powerful tool because it helps in abstract thinking. It suggests and then it allows you to draw your own conclusions. Like a prayer, Like a Prayer, Papa dont preach all of them were pushing the boundaries of conservative society but they did it without going to the real of vulgarity. They were all at least lyrical. They even rhymed back then. So yes Mrs Ciccone is actually very very artstic, has some brilliant lyrics. However if any of Mrs Ciccone's songs were heard from minors they would not understand what she was actually talking about. And as a matter of fact I like that she is dating younger men. (This means that there is still hope for me and Monicca Bellucci :-P)

Its exactly the same for all great artists. For someone to understand what she was talking about they should have had at least some life experience. To be precise there has been several songs that have been talking about female sexual pleasure in the past, but none of which were vulgar.

So its not the issue of female sexual pleasure. It's the issue of VULGARITY.

Robert wrote: "I have an apartment building in Lawrence Mass. I lived there for three years myself. Upon my arrival to the "war zone" there were 5 and 6 year old children unsupervised all day long everyday walking up and down the street yelling explicit obscenities at each other. And I repeat unsupervised as in no parents watching their own young children on a narrow one way street while teenagers drag raced in their souped up cars. Gun shots behind my house! Hypodermic needles laying around! Where were the laws and enforcement there?
Nothing has changed it's still the same now as it was then. "


I am sorry to hear that. I absolutely agree that the situation has to change. However there is nothing i can do personally for that to change. But to want me to accept something that is wrong, I can have a say about it, because there is nothing i can possibly do for the situation in your neighbourhood? Is that not a bit faulty logic?

Robert wrote: "And you can't throw into the mix "Oh that is too offensive" so we need to have a law against it!"

Well... first of all i do not care about it, if its within my reach or not. I simply find it distastefull and I will ignore it. However that might not be the same for a minor. And I will be honest I had fun in clubs hearing "Voulez vous coucher avec moi ce soir" from Lady Marmelade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuqU4...

But this was not an environment that a minor would be in. And if they were they would be in their 16, 17. To be honest I started going to clubs the summer I was 15. Small town a couple of clubs they would allow for teenagers to go in, it is part of the innitiation and process of growing up. Still there is a whole distance to be covered from going to these places, to the point where you understand why you are going there. And there is also a great distance from learning to flirt with a girl at these ages to actually have sex with her.

And ofcourse its not the sex that bothers me. Its the entire process. You see flirting and getting around a girl and getting to know her allowed someone to build up some respect for her. Today the aim is 100% clear cut: Fuck fuck fuck fuck. Also you know that many women do not manage to have an orgasm when they start having sex. They eventually get there though. Thats not something to do with the man (apart that this early he might be a bit clumsy), but more with biological factors. What would such a song would suggest to the Girl? That she must have an orgasm, so it's the boys fault. Well... that will ruin a perfectly good first relationship to be honest.

As I said. They have removed lyricism and poetry from modern kids lives. They will eventually become cynics, and then some ugly things are bound to happen. Social imbalances such as what we see today with the wealth distribution within society. This has happen because long ago some people were also saying "Whats so bad about some people getting filthy ritch and some others getting poorer? That's the way of things. We cannot prevent it!"

Well... As it turns out they most certainly could.

The same holds true with this. You can do something about this. You can demand that Miley Cyrous will not be spreading her legs in her tours, or if she does the material will be out of reach of minors. Allow them to form a picture in their mind about what sex is, what it is about, what the other gender wants from them and not one imposed to them by some unscrupulous artist who's only goal is Greed. And as a matter of fact yes we already have the laws for that, and yes we also have the technology to impose restrictions for when and/or who can access that material.

The thing is that these laws are not enforced because some people have vested interests for these laws not to be applied. But that will not happen if your attitude is

Robert wrote: "In the end it boils down to the simple fact that just like when we were all children, if we wanted to find a way to see, hear or do something in the end there is not a DAMN thing any parent, law and so on was or is going to do or say to stop it! PERIOD!

This thing can only change if you say: "I have voted for you, to be in that seat of power and you are there to make sure that the laws are enforced or new proper ones are created. So either do that or give your place to someone who can."

Oh yes. I forgot.
Bonus track with subtle lyrics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C1BC...
I watched Simon Garfungel together with Sting here in Germany a year ago.

To hell with it. More Simon And Garfungel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3LFM... The Boxer

And some Sting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gzqs... Desert Rose


message 43: by Georgios (last edited Jul 11, 2017 01:52PM) (new)

Georgios Winston wrote: "Georgios wrote: "I am indipendant"

you most certainly are!"


Still more degrees and largely more educated than you are Winston despite the typo. But yes all you can rely upon is a typo. But that only shows me your intelect and your level.


message 44: by Georgios (new)

Georgios Another Bonus Track. Because I am in the mood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCsHv... Sting: The End of the Game


message 45: by Gerd (last edited Jul 11, 2017 10:08PM) (new)

Gerd | 379 comments The law and the arts, to play devils advocate for a bit:

The arts rely on the law/society trying to suppress them. If there wasn't a stigmatism to get pregnant out of wedlock "Papa don't preach" wouldn't have been written.

If Brazil's society wasn't the way it is Karol Conka wouldn't be demanding of her hypothetical lover to go down south.

Without that friction between right and "wrong", a lot of artists would have gone hungry - incidentally a lot of real artists actually did.
So yes Conka, W.A.S.P. and the like would not exist, or at least not make that much money from what they do, if it wasn't for them being regarded as controversial - which btw. is not in the same vein as the saying that art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable.
But point is, the more we try and push against something, the more we try to pass laws against something, the more we are going to justify it's existence (if only in the artists mind), when it comes to art.

Yet I'm (mostly) with Georgios there, I don't think much of the vulgarity we find in such songs. I do subscribe to the notion that language has a power to define us, and vulgarity only works to lower ourselves.

But I do also have to admit that I know zilch about the Brazilian culture, and when having grown up in a country where it is not seen as untoward for a young woman to present herself as sexually assertive, as we find by Annett Lousian in this song for example Das Spiel, it is difficult so see what people might find in something like Karol Conka's song.


message 46: by James (new)

James Corprew | 547 comments Ooooh, W.A.S.P., nice name drop. :)

Gerd did bring up a good point though and it reminded me of a video by Megadeth in 1986 featuring the title track "Peace Sells". Towards the middle of the song there is a moment where a long haired teen is watching tv with the music video playing and his dad walks into the room, grabs the remote and changes the channel saying "I want to watch the news!"

The kid turns back and looks at his dad and manually changes it back to the video and proclaims "This is the news!"

Point being, music is often a reflection of society, not the bane of it. Art and entertainment is often the outlet that people use to speak out about issues they are concerned with and sometimes its not very pretty. This doesnt mean that all lyrical content is politically or socially driven as some music is used for shock value to be more controversial and stand out.


message 47: by Keith (last edited Jul 12, 2017 04:56AM) (new)

Keith | 632 comments James wrote: "Point being, music is often a reflection of society, not the bane of it. Art and entertainment is often the outlet that people use to speak out about issues they are concerned with and sometimes its not very pretty. ."

A case in point https://youtu.be/94DNV6oM8HU

God knows how the UK went from this to Duran Duran within 2 years.............

The album from which this is taken, "Never Mind The Bollocks, Here's The Sex Pistols", was taken to Court, under the UK's obscenity laws (the same ones that were used to ban Lady Chatterley's Lover) due to the album cover. As always, banning something creates some notoriety and it then sells like mad; at least 300,000 units in this case.

'Relax' was mentioned above - banned by the BBC; sales eventually topped 2 million.

Banning/censoring is all well and good, but you just make something more attractive to the population you are trying to influence and it inevitably doesn't work.


message 48: by James (new)

James Corprew | 547 comments Very true Keith. As an aside, Megadeth do an awesome cover of Anarchy in the UK. :)


message 49: by Keith (last edited Jul 12, 2017 05:07AM) (new)

Keith | 632 comments James wrote: "Very true Keith. As an aside, Megadeth do an awesome cover of Anarchy in the UK. :)"

James, I am told that this is a seminal track in the birth of thrash metal.

See what you think https://youtu.be/hjyqpxkKJCM

Sorry, way off topic :(


message 50: by Georgios (last edited Jul 12, 2017 05:28AM) (new)

Georgios James wrote: "Point being, music is often a reflection of society, not the bane of it. Art and entertainment is often the outlet that people use to speak out about issues they are concerned with and sometimes its not very pretty. This doesnt mean that all lyrical content is politically or socially driven as some music is used for shock value to be more controversial and stand out."

That's assuming that music is the reflection of society. As a matter of fact there is A LOT of music out there that is actually that. However when something becomes overcommercialised and changes nature in order to look "avant guarde" (think the transformation Miley Cyrous went within a forthnight) then it's fake. And the question that begs to be asked here: Is sex something new or did billions of people do it and prectice it every day from the beggining of time? If that is the case then why do they hypersexualise artists and songs? The answer is so they can sell. Because sex sells.

So it's not art they selling but a severely degraded product. Exactly the same way that McDonalds sell their crap for food. And yes young people will accept it because the radio frequencies are so flooded with this crap that they besically have no alternative. Peer pressure works towards that direction as well. If you do not listen to that specific kind of music than you are not "cool", you are a "geek" so on and so forth. Due to this attitude kids will not even dare listen to something different. So yes there is a problem there. A severe one if you ask me, and its even worsened by the fact that people who are within the radio and music industry such as yourself do not recognise the fact that all these things are made for profit and in doing so cause tremendous damage.

Also who spoke about banning or censoring? All I am saying is ensure that appropriate music and shows are played at the right time and that minors to not have access to adult content or content that can proove to be misleading or reducing their choices.

And no this is not the same as the sex pistols, the doors, the stones or whoever else. At that time they still made music. They still had poems for lyrics. The still had large social issues open. Today this is not the case. Today we are dealing with the abuse of freedom and that fact that the checks and balances that are in place to ensure individual freedoms, personal and emotional growth, and even safety (because gangsta rap that promotes violence is not something good) are all overseen in order for enterprises to make an extra buck.

So we have article 22 from teh UN charter that is breached:

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Unfortunately exactl, because of what i discussed above there is not free development of personality, because other artistic and cultural options are eclipsed by marketing techniques and strategies.

There are a lot to be said about dignitiy and how such lyrics can be viewed as offence to human digninity. Have you thought that older and more conservative people do have a right to their dignity too? No? Why are you excluding their rights and opinions? The are parts of society too you know, and as a matter of fact they are the ones who are actually producing. The are the ones who are actually funding Generation Z to buy these products. So have you ever considered that they might actually want to have a say in how THEIR MONEY is being spent and the quality of products their children are being served?

No? You dont like laws? You like anarchy?

Well anarchy is one of the most totalitarian of regimes. It suppreses people's rights with the lack of laws and regulations, checks and balances. There is not absolute freedom. There never was and never will be. There is only one kind of freedom. It's conditional freedom, and the condition is that we can go as far as the other person's rights begins.

I will have the Lizard King's Lyrics help me in this one:

"One summer night, going to the pier.
I ran into two young girls.
The blonde one was called Freedom.
The dark one, Enterprise. "

Jim Morrison, Stoned Immaculate

The Lizard King knew something about the future indeed. So not just a poet. A philosopher too.

Anarchocapitalism/Neopliberalism must not be allowed to flourish. All these perversions come from there.


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