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message 1: by Trike (new)

Trike | 8317 comments There's no thread for the Wonder Woman movie? Weird.

Anyway, I just saw it and it's a decent flick. I think for people who haven't seen most of the superhero movies it will be enjoyable, but unfortunately this movie will only reinforce the impression that DC has been following too closely in Marvel's wake. I don't think it's enough to simply have the first female superhero get her own movie; they needed to change things up a bit.

On the other hand, maybe the mere fact that this is about a woman will make a difference. I suspect this will probably draw more women viewers than the typical superflick, so they'll probably like it quite a lot.


message 2: by John (Taloni) (new)

John (Taloni) Taloni (johntaloni) | 3917 comments Not sure if I will see it this weekend or next.

If this movie succeeds in being a film about a major DC character that doesn't suck, I'll be glad. Also, I hope to God her mother's name isn't Martha.

Plenty of female viewers for Thor btw, but I think the draw there was different.


message 3: by Leesa (last edited Jun 02, 2017 03:53PM) (new)

Leesa (leesalogic) | 639 comments I LOVED it. During the battle scenes i teared up because it was such a feeling to see female superheroes. MY heroes. I was the first to cheer at the end with the WW logo.


message 4: by Trike (new)

Trike | 8317 comments Leesa wrote: "I LOVED it. During the battle scenes i teared up because it was such a feeling to see female superheroes.MY heros. I was the first to cheer at the end with the WW logo."

Have you seen the other superhero films?

WW is easily the best DC movie since The Dark Knight, which for my money was the only good DC movie. WW is definitely the best of the rebooted DCU.


message 5: by Leesa (last edited Jun 02, 2017 04:15PM) (new)

Leesa (leesalogic) | 639 comments Yes, I've seen the others. WW is the only saving grace of BvS.

"What I do is not up to you."

YES!!!!!!

Also, Connie Nielsen and Robin Wright were amazing warriors. LOVED THEM!

When Wonder Woman charges through "No Man's Land" that was the big tearing up scene for me. Like my friend said, "this is the movie I've been waiting to see since I was five years old."

YEP!!!!


message 6: by Trike (new)

Trike | 8317 comments It's not a bad movie at all. BvS and Suicide Squad are bad movies regardless of whether they're compared to anything else. I was just disappointed that it was too similar to Captain America and Thor. Allan Heinberg wrote the brilliant Young Avengers, so I expected something a little more clever and original.

But like I said, I think the fact it stars a woman will probably be enough for most people.


RJ - Slayer of Trolls (hawk5391yahoocom) | 253 comments I haven't seen it - I'm hoping to take my daughter in a few days. I've seen the trailers though, and they look terrific. The theme song sounds great!


message 8: by Walter (new)

Walter Spence (walterspence) | 707 comments My wife and I saw it today. Definitely the best DC comics movie since Nolan's second Batman flick.


message 9: by Silvana (new)

Silvana (silvaubrey) | 1618 comments A decent movie but too many mansplaining for my taste. Some weird dialogue and the ending was...well I expected too much.

And a question: after all she did in this movie then why she could not take care of the monster in BvS?


message 10: by Trike (new)

Trike | 8317 comments Silvana wrote: "A decent movie but too many mansplaining for my taste. Some weird dialogue and the ending was...well I expected too much.

And a question: after all she did in this movie then why she could not take care of the monster in BvS?"


I thought her power level was pretty consistent, which is kind of impressive given how these films usually go.

(view spoiler)


message 11: by Trike (last edited Jun 05, 2017 09:48AM) (new)

Trike | 8317 comments Now that WW is a hit, I think it's safe to say that the DCEU is no longer in immediate danger of imploding. Of course, they still need Justice League to not suck. Hopefully they didn't put all the jokes in the trailer.

A couple articles of interest:

Wonder Woman's impact on the DCEU:
http://variety.com/2017/film/news/won...

How WW compares to other superhero films:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat...

One of the things that really pisses me off is the entrenched misogyny of both the film industry and moviegoers. The fact that people were claiming the WW shoot was a hot mess when it was nothing of the sort reminds me of the same bullshit charge leveled against Lexi Alexander when she was making Punisher: War Zone. I recently rewatched P:WZ and though it is like WW in that it's not quite as good as it could have been (or I hoped it would be), it's still a well-made movie that has a definite sense of style.

In P:WZ, Alexander opted to subtly mimic the classic comic book look by having certain sequences color-coded as if they were straight out of the comic. Say what you will about that choice, it is a bold one, and makes that movie look different from every other superhero film.

If you go back to Hollywood's early days, many of its most successful writers and directors were women. Much of Hollywood's success depended on women being creative, defining the look of movies that we still see now more than 100 years later. I don't know exactly when the pervasive sexism started infecting the industry, but it's high time we kicked that nonsense to the curb.

So while I don't think WW is a great movie, it is significant in that it has proved the dumbass naysayers wrong. And most of the issues I have with the movie are from the script, which was written by a man. A gay man, but still.

According to the articles I've read, the audience for WW has been about 52% female, when for a typical superhero movie it's usually around 40%. I don't know where those stats come from, but my experience is that most superhero flicks are more like 90% men. At my WW screening it was definitely a 50/50 mix, with a lot of women there by themselves. I have NEVER seen a woman alone at a superhero film before this, but in the theatre I was in, at least half the women were there alone. That amazed me.

I remember when I went to see Iron Man 2 there was only one woman in the theatre. That is far more representative of superhero audiences in my experience.

Hopefully Sony's Spiderverse film about Silver Sable and the Black Cat, titled Silver & Black, continues the trend, and Marvel's Captain Marvel crushes the box office, so we get to see a string of hits about female superheroes directed by women which leads to numerous tentpole flicks being directed by women regardless of content, thus blowing up Hollywood's preconceived notions about all of this.


message 12: by Melani (new)

Melani | 179 comments Trike wrote: "But I suspect very few women in the audience have seen Captain America...."

You know what, I've been ignoring the not so subtle digs at lady geeks in your posts, but this is beyond the pale. Why in the world would you think that the women on this board, a board dedicated to books with a science fiction/fantasy bent, will not have seen one of the largest superhero movies in the past 10 years? Please stop. Women who love comic book movies exist and we exist in large numbers.


message 13: by Trike (new)

Trike | 8317 comments Melani wrote: "Trike wrote: "But I suspect very few women in the audience have seen Captain America...."

You know what, I've been ignoring the not so subtle digs at lady geeks in your posts, but this is beyond t..."


I'm not taking shots at anyone. Read my last post -- I'm actively and volubly a feminist and have been for over 40 years.

All I'm talking about is facts. Audiences for superhero movies are comprised of a majority of men, just as readers of superhero comics are primarily men.

Wonder Woman is flipping that dynamic, so that the majority of the audience is women. The viewership stats (and my own anecdotal experience) are supporting that.

So when I say that I don't think many of the women viewers will be bothered by the fact the story closely resembles the one in Captain America because they likely haven't seen that earlier film, it's merely because they probably haven't seen CA.

Nothing more than that.

On Facebook last month I was surprised when there was this anger from my female friends about the lack of marketing for Wonder Woman. I was surprised because I had been seeing ads for it *constantly* every time I turned on the TV. But I tend to watch primarily genre shows. All the CW superhero series, for instance, and they were saturated with WW commercials.

As we dug into it, it turns out that WB was advertising quite a bit on established genre channels and that the women who were angry about the supposed lack of marketing didn't watch those shows. Like, at all. To me that just underscored the fact that women aren't as engaged in superheroes as much as guys are. Which I find especially weird given that the CW shows literally have romance plots at their core.

For instance, on The Flash, Barry Allen has spent this entire season trying to save Iris from being killed in the future, and he bumblingly does all the wrong romantic things for all the right reasons. Literally every other relationship between all the other characters during this season has played out the same way in support of that theme.

When I detailed that on the long Facebook post, quite a few of the women replied, "Well, I'd watch THAT." To which I replied, "Then why aren't you?" I can sum up their reactions thus: "Because I assumed it was a typical superhero show."

Which kind of proves the point.

I do think WB missed a huge opportunity by not promoting WW on shows which have majority female viewers, such as the various Real Housewives series, but the complaints that the studio wasn't promoting it at all were simply false. They just were hitting the typical places they advertise all superhero movies, which is in venues where women are the minority audience.

I have converted a number of those women to viewers, and they are enjoying them immensely. Particular favorites are Legends of Tomorrow and The Flash. I was at dinner last week with some friends and I was raving about how much fun LoT is. One of those friends is a new mom, and she and her wife are really getting into LoT. This is a show that wasn't even on their radar until I talked it up.

So no, there are no digs at lady geeks at all. I want them to share in this thing that I'm really into. I hope this helps clear that up.


message 14: by Trike (new)

Trike | 8317 comments I also want to mention a similar thing I experienced when I was a kid. I talked about this on Usenet 20 years ago, so it's probably still out there somewhere.

When Star Wars came out, I was 12. (The very fact that I don't refer to it as "Episode 4" is usually a clue that I'm old.) Over the course of the summer I had seen the movie twice, which was by far the lowest number of any of my friends once I went back to school in August and we compared notes. Most of them had seen it 10 or 12 times. One guy had seen it 31 times. (These kids were clearly richer than I was, even though it only cost 75 cents to see a matinee back then.)

So I assumed that everyone had seen the movie. It was all anyone talked about. When my parents took me and my brother to see it, my mom -- who worked nights as the head nurse in the ER -- promptly fell asleep. In Star Wars. She was 40 years old at the time. Now that I'm in my 50s, I get that. I've done similar things myself. (I fell asleep in one of the Fast & Furious flicks.)

Anyway, in 1980 when Empire Strike Back came out, a bunch of us were sitting around during lunch hatching a plan to go see it after school and the big topic was whether anyone's parents would consider it a date if we took our girlfriends. (It was a different era.) Turns out that none of the girls had seen Star Wars. Literally zero of them. So they had no interest in going to see Empire.

I was gobsmacked. Here I had blithely assumed everyone had seen it at least once. Nope. That movie became the biggest blockbuster of all time on the backs of guys seeing it over and over again obsessively. Even some of my buddies hadn't seen it, including my by-then best friend.

That's when I realized that actually very few people had seen Star Wars, and almost none of the girls had.

This was before VCRs, and Star Wars had never been on TV, so if you hadn't seen it in the theatres then you didn't get a chance to do so. Even though it had been re-released a couple times in the interim, it was mostly playing to the exact same audience. And it makes sense to not see the sequel if you haven't seen the original.

Ever since then I've tried to persuade and cajole women into seeing sci-fi flicks, but they're mostly not interested. I go to most movies either alone or with a couple of my geek buddies. The women deem them "boy movies", which is the flipside of "chick flicks," but I go to see those, too, where they don't see the SFF movies.

This is why I've argued strenuously in favor of inclusion and diversity -- see the various threads like the one about Iron Fist where I'm literally the only one defending changing a character's race or gender or sexual orientation from the default of "straight white male." Because that's the best way to get people to love the things I love, by giving everyone else representation onscreen.


message 15: by Melani (new)

Melani | 179 comments I'm so tired of men telling me that people like me don't exist, or are so super rare that we're just odd. So tired.


RJ - Slayer of Trolls (hawk5391yahoocom) | 253 comments Melani wrote: "I'm so tired of men telling me that people like me don't exist, or are so super rare that we're just odd. So tired."

I read his posts twice and I don't think he's trying to say that at all.


message 17: by Leesa (new)

Leesa (leesalogic) | 639 comments I see the same as Melani does. Very off-putting.


message 18: by Silvana (new)

Silvana (silvaubrey) | 1618 comments Just sharing my observation: There were lots of women during the screening that I went into. And most of my female friends who watched WW have seen Captain America and the other superhero blockbusters. They might not be into comics but they are dedicated moviegoers.

It might be different in other locations but definitely there are considerable amount of women who watched WW who also watched the other superhero movies either alone or with friends (not necessarily with boyfriends who dragged them into the movies).

What I found annoying was the presence of little kids in the theater. But that's another topic.


message 19: by Silvana (last edited Jun 06, 2017 08:23AM) (new)

Silvana (silvaubrey) | 1618 comments Trike wrote: "Silvana wrote: "A decent movie but too many mansplaining for my taste. Some weird dialogue and the ending was...well I expected too much.

And a question: after all she did in this movie then why s..."


(view spoiler)


message 20: by Trike (new)

Trike | 8317 comments Melani wrote: "I'm so tired of men telling me that people like me don't exist, or are so super rare that we're just odd. So tired."

I give up. Haters gonna hate.


message 21: by Aubrey (new)

Aubrey (pennyken) | 19 comments Trike wrote: "Melani wrote: "I'm so tired of men telling me that people like me don't exist, or are so super rare that we're just odd. So tired."

I give up. Haters gonna hate."


Does it have to turn into a hater thing and get pushed off like that? A few other people have agreed with Melani's problem with your comments and I feel the same way.

Reading your posts I understand that you want an inclusive and diverse geek universe which is great. I also agree with you about the WW script (written by a team of men) which was my biggest issue with the film as well. We need more women writers, directors, and producers and it sounds like you are totally for that which is great.

However, a few of your comments come off as presumptive about what women viewers vs male viewers will enjoy and watch which, to me, is what's bothersome.

You posted the statistic that -

"According to the articles I've read, the audience for WW has been about 52% female, when for a typical superhero movie it's usually around 40%."

If this is true, then why would you think that most women seeing WW haven't seen CA? Why would you assume that women haven't seen almost any superhero movie or show until it gets talked up to them personally?

Maybe from your personal experience you haven't seen women in superhero movie theaters and maybe your female friends don't watch superhero TV shows without you personally telling them to. But that's not true of all women viewers and it seems like there are more of us than you think.
I just think you should be careful not to confuse your own experience with the larger reality about viewers.


message 22: by Rebecca (new)

Rebecca (raitalle) | 52 comments Aubrey said everything I was thinking of saying, and probably better than I would have. It's very off putting when someone assumes that women haven't seen a superhero movie, especially so when that thought is posted in a group like this.

For the record, I went to see WW with my husband this past weekend. I loved it, although I do agree with some of peoples' disappointments here. There is so much to be happy with it for doing though, and I look forward to the time when a woman-led movie like this isn't such a big deal, and there isn't as much pressure on it to be perfect.

Btw, out of the two of us, my husband is the one who hasn't seen Captain America :P


message 23: by Aubrey (new)

Aubrey (pennyken) | 19 comments Rebecca wrote: "Aubrey said everything I was thinking of saying, and probably better than I would have. It's very off putting when someone assumes that women haven't seen a superhero movie, especially so when that..."

Thanks, Rebecca.

I went to see WW with my bf last weekend and I basically had to drag him along with me. (He's not into the Sci-Fi/Fantasy world at all.) We both came out of it having really enjoyed it and thinking it was better than we expected it to be. I loved Gal Gadot's performance so much! Robin Wright was beyond amazing as well.

Like I said, my main complaint was with the writing mostly because there were so many plot holes. My bf called it the "Swiss cheese of movies" and I thought that was hilarious and accurate.

Anyway, I agree with you that I look forward to a time when a woman-led movie is the norm and everyone can talk about it like we would any other movie. :)


message 24: by Silvana (new)

Silvana (silvaubrey) | 1618 comments Robin Wright was a pleasant surprise for me. Didn't know Claire Underwood is in WW. I wish when I am 51 I can look as fit as her.


message 25: by Vanessa (new)

Vanessa | 101 comments Trike wrote: "Melani wrote: "I'm so tired of men telling me that people like me don't exist, or are so super rare that we're just odd. So tired."

I give up. Haters gonna hate."


Aubrey and Rebecca already captured most of the points I was thinking, and I wanted to say that I agree with them. I think you made some very thoughtful points about flaws in the movie and then a few presumptive points about how gender dictates a person's interests. The idea that men like only like this type of movie and women only like another type of movie is outdated. And if we're using anecdotal evidence, then every superhero movie that's come out in the last twenty years (and I've seen pretty much all of them; even X-Men 3, which was awful) had an even split between men and women.

And also, despite its flaws, I really enjoyed WW. I was giddy when I saw a woman pick up a tank and throw it, and I almost cheered out loud when I heard a woman tell a man that she makes her own choices. It was so refreshing, it's sad.


message 26: by Melani (last edited Jun 07, 2017 09:10AM) (new)

Melani | 179 comments Rebecca wrote: "Aubrey said everything I was thinking of saying, and probably better than I would have. It's very off putting when someone assumes that women haven't seen a superhero movie, especially so when that..."

Yes, thank you Aubrey. You said it extremely well.

As for Wonder Woman. I loved it. I cried so much. Yes I have some criticisms, but they just aren't strong enough to override the sheer joy that everything in the movie gave me. From little Diana to the Amazons to that amazing trench scene, I just loved everything. It was exactly what I've always known I wanted to see in a movie.


message 27: by Aubrey (new)

Aubrey (pennyken) | 19 comments Melani wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "Aubrey said everything I was thinking of saying, and probably better than I would have. It's very off putting when someone assumes that women haven't seen a superhero movie, especia..."

Thanks Melani and Vanessa.

I loved the movie as well. Hearing from so many women who are responding positively to it and are feeling empowered and represented on the screen is making my heart so happy!


message 28: by Aubrey (new)

Aubrey (pennyken) | 19 comments Silvana wrote: "Robin Wright was a pleasant surprise for me. Didn't know Claire Underwood is in WW. I wish when I am 51 I can look as fit as her."

lol, she is just so wonderful. I want to be her when I grow up. I really appreciated that she wasn't wearing a ton of make up and you could see her real face, wrinkles and all. She looked so beautiful and like a natural warrior.


message 29: by Stephen (new)

Stephen Richter (stephenofllongbeach) | 1322 comments Easily the best DC movie in a long time. Everything worked for me.


message 30: by John (Nevets) (new)

John (Nevets) Nevets (nevets) | 1545 comments Saw it at a matinee today. Thought it was great. Did it have aspects of other films I've seen, sure. But they were put together so well, to tell a great story I really don't care. The same way that "The Force Awakens" used a lot of elements of "Star Wars", but it was done so well to tell such a great story, I really didn't care. I'll take more great stories any day.

Also, I usually don't pay attention to this, but after reading some of this post I did. Of roughly 20 people in the small theater, on a Sunday afternoon, a week after this film was released, the audience was 2/3 woman. And it looked like a couple of the guys had been dragged there.


message 31: by Michael (new)

Michael (michaelrowe01) | 17 comments Saw it today... loved it! Best DC movie in years


message 32: by John (Taloni) (new)

John (Taloni) Taloni (johntaloni) | 3917 comments Saw it today. The theater was full at a matinee. Now, these are the "reserved seating" theaters with the big seats, but still. 2:30 on a Sunday in the second week. Full. Looking at boxofficemojo, the dropoff for Wonder Woman is the lowest of all the recent DC movies. That means its sustain will be better going forward. Expect this one to beat Man of Steel and Suicide Squad and possibly even Batman vs Superman. Remember that Gal Gadot was not a star before this, so Wonder Woman made it without Ben Affleck or Jared Leto or a boob-swinging Harley Quinn. I doubt people were showing up to see Chris Pine, although that choice probably made Hollywood suits sleep easier. Quite simply, the box office for Wonder Woman is because it is a good movie, and Gal Gadot kicks ass in the role.

As to the quality of the movie, I found it to be the best of the DC movies. That's damning with faint praise for the recent ones, which I've found to be uniformly terrible. Don't care about the inflated box office, I could care less about disappearing Supes or both Bats and Supes having moms named Martha. They stunk.

As for the recent-past Batman movies, I'm old enough to remember when Dark Knight was new and Frank Miller pulled the gritty Batman out of thin air. Prior to that Batman was a great detective. I see little evidence of a great detective in the Bale Batmans, just a guy with a lot of money brute-forcing his way through cases.

The naive Diana Prince worked well, even to the "clay" origin story bit. Steve Trevor really worked as the not so noble guy trying to achieve a noble end by whatever means he could. I also appreciated having a female villain. Yes, women can be bad too.

The reaction of the troops to Wonder Woman made a lot of sense. Yes, you would follow a demigod who got you those results. The aged generals could be sexist jerks but the troops knew results.

The fight scenes were fabulous. Well choreographed, and you really feel like that's her in the fight. There may be CG but it never felt like a cutaway scene. It probably helps that Gal Gadot was in the Israeli military and has been in a war zone. Her experiences helped her bring a sense of realism to the screen.

I'm sure there will be a Wonder Woman 2, after these results. I'm actually expecting Justice League to stink, so here's hoping for a good sequel.

One other tidbit...on the way out I saw an older couple...and since I'm in my 50s I mean "past retirement age." I had a quick chat with the woman. She said she really enjoyed it. She may have been a geek like me, I didn't get a chance to ask. But women well out of the movie going age are showing up for this film. That should tell Hollywood something.


message 33: by Tommy (last edited Jun 12, 2017 12:33AM) (new)

Tommy Hancock (tommyhancock) | 97 comments There was no dragging for me. For the first time in my life, I went to see a movie in a theater alone this weekend. The people I know who wanted to see it already had and I didn't want to waste time finding someone else so I just hopped on over after work.

Honestly, I don't do social commentary or study audiences or anything like that. I can only speak for myself and what I thought about it. Personally, I loved it.


message 34: by Allison (last edited Jun 12, 2017 07:11AM) (new)

Allison Hurd | 226 comments Leesa wrote: "I LOVED it. During the battle scenes i teared up because it was such a feeling to see female superheroes. MY heroes. I was the first to cheer at the end with the WW logo."

SPOILERS IN MY POST! You are warned!!

High five, Leesa! I was borderline ugly sobbing when the Amazons stormed the beach, and when Diana did what the entire Alliance could not by entering No Man's Land.

The ending was meh, but there was enough meat in the movie that I will tentatively trust DC to continue the brand. That's a big step for me, as I was most recently calling for the DC empire to let it go already and stand down for better production teams to come save their properties.

It was definitely not the perfect movie, but I would like to say that a lot of the complaints I've seen actually made the movie feel so much more relatable to me. Yeah, a human dude felt he could and should control her somewhat and she sometimes allowed it out of what felt like political rationale (she was a princess in a foreign land after all) and sometimes out of expediency for her own aims, but she never let him gainsay her or make her feel like she owed him anything. Or shame! I loved how shameless she was, ripping dresses that didn't belong to her, telling off the clearly uncomfortable, rather useless leaders in the War Room.

She could follow their rules, but she never played their game, and that felt awesome to me. I also don't think she "loved" Steve. Maybe I'm alone, but I got that she found him attractive, and they had a bond from the time before, but he was not built to be her partner in the movie. He was an introduction, and the thing that got her in the end was that even though all sorts of things were terrible the world over, some people were willing to die to make it better. We watch videos of strangers assembling to throw cars off of injured people or dive into oceans to save dogs, how much more moving is it to be on site as your friend and new lover blows himself up intentionally to save a bunch of people who wouldn't even know he was dead?

I am probably trying to make this the movie I want, rather than reading what was written, but I liked most of the dialogue. I felt her pain and admired her for not letting them dull her sparkle.


message 35: by Allison (new)

Allison Hurd | 226 comments Also, I agree with Silvana though that with her powers, I don't understand why Diana doesn't just stop all the bad things. I was trying to think why she needs the Justice League, and the best I can think of is this:

-Batman's the IT guy
-Flash is a land mount to get her places faster than she could run by herself.
-Jason...I mean Aqua Man is her every other kind of mount. Really he's the only one I understand getting an invite. Look at him. Just look at him.
- Cyborg is her sentient shield from which she can fly into battle.


message 36: by Aaron (last edited Jun 12, 2017 12:56PM) (new)

Aaron Nagy | 379 comments I thought it was really good and I'm surprised as I think most of the DC movies have been garbage lately. Most of my problems with it had to be with how ham fisted the choice of the great war felt. When I first heard about it I thought it would be great and better than doing WW2 for the millionthy time especially with who the villian was going to be as the war was much of a war for the sake of war, but it really felt like they were playing up the whole hey look Germans bad remember WW2 when Germans were bad we totally arn't the Captain America movie

(view spoiler)


message 37: by John (Nevets) (new)

John (Nevets) Nevets (nevets) | 1545 comments Ok, once again I'm a bit slow. I was tweeting something out today and abbreviating Wonder Woman as WW when I realized that the WW1 movie took place during WWI.

Coincidence? .... I think not!!

(actually I think it probably was, but had to use that line.)


message 38: by John (Taloni) (new)

John (Taloni) Taloni (johntaloni) | 3917 comments John (Nevets) wrote: "Coincidence? .... I think not!!"

Admit it, you were twirling your handlebar mustache as you said this, weren't you?


message 39: by Caitlin (new)

Caitlin | 355 comments Trike wrote: "Have you seen the other superhero films?"

Trike wrote: "But like I said, I think the fact it stars a woman will probably be enough for most people."

Trike wrote: "But I suspect very few women in the audience have seen Captain America."

Trike wrote: "...the audience for WW has been about 52% female, when for a typical superhero movie it's usually around 40%. I don't know where those stats come from, but my experience is that most superhero flicks are more like 90% men. At my WW screening it was definitely a 50/50 mix, with a lot of women there by themselves. I have NEVER seen a woman alone at a superhero film before this, but in the theatre I was in, at least half the women were there alone. That amazed me."

Trike wrote: "I'm actively and volubly a feminist and have been for over 40 years."

Trike wrote: "Audiences for superhero movies are comprised of a majority of men, just as readers of superhero comics are primarily men. "

Melani wrote: "I'm so tired of men telling me that people like me don't exist, or are so super rare that we're just odd. So tired."

Leesa wrote: "I see the same as Melani does. Very off-putting."

This was then backed up by other women in the thread, and I will now chime in as well. A couple points:
1. The statements you make do come off as jabs at women, especially in this forum where we're all geeks & nerds.
2. For some reason, you trust your own anecdata of few women seeing superhero films, even in the face of a statistic that tells you the audience is 40% female
3. It's great that you're a feminist and have been for 40 years. I'd like to encourage you to listen to and learn from these women that made their points to you. From your responses, I do not believe you have yet questioned your viewpoint on this. Feminism has advanced quite a bit in the last decade, let alone over the past 40 years. In order to keep up in any field, there needs to be continuous learning - I wouldn't want to go to a doctor that had been educated forty years ago, practiced the whole time but didn't pay attention to any new developments during her career.



And as for the movie - I loved it. I also ugly cried through my first viewing of it, because it was so refreshing to see a superhero movie that didn't have the male gaze permeating every camera angle! I went alone for my second viewing while I wanted to kill some time at a conference in a different city, and I am tempted to go a third time this week.


message 40: by AndrewP (new)

AndrewP (andrewca) | 2471 comments Saw it this weekend and agree with most of the comments, best DC movie in years etc. But my wife made the observation that for about 50% of the movie it looked like WW was the co-star in her own movie. It was all about Steve Trevor for much of the screen time.


message 41: by John (Taloni) (new)

John (Taloni) Taloni (johntaloni) | 3917 comments ^ That's true, and I can come up with two reasons for it.

1. Steve Trevor was a big part of both the early comics and the 70s TV series. To some extent his presence would be expected.

2. Chris Pine is at least a modest star, Gal Gadot an unknown. Hollywood suits seek reassurance. Thor had Natalie Portman as star anchor for the then fairly unknown Chris Hemsworth, Wonder Woman has Chris Pine.


message 42: by Caitlin (new)

Caitlin | 355 comments The running time is 2 hours 21 minutes, and yet I still wished for more time to flesh out the rest of the other characters even more.


message 43: by John (Nevets) (new)

John (Nevets) Nevets (nevets) | 1545 comments I know most folks around here don't pay attention to the box office numbers for movies, but during the summer I find it a fun distraction. The reason I bring this up, is Wonder Woman is still doing pretty darn good bringing in money. Even though It is still almost 30 million behind GoTG2, I think it might end up passing it. This is even more of an accomplishment since GoTG2 made almost 30 million more in it's opening weekend then Wonder Woman. But based on the number of days since release, WW has caught up to GotG2, and still seems to have more legs. Give it a month more, and I think it can do it. That is if Spiderman doesn't take all the air out of the room for other comic book movies. Even if it doesn't pass it, the fact that it is doing this good, is just awesome.

It is always cool to see an underdog accomplish something like this. I just hope that WB, and the rest of Hollywood, recognizes what allowed this to happen and gives Patty and Gal a chance to continue doing good work ( both with this property, and others) with out interference that oftentimes comes with a big success.


message 44: by Allison (new)

Allison Hurd | 226 comments John (Nevets) wrote: "I know most folks around here don't pay attention to the box office numbers for movies, but during the summer I find it a fun distraction. The reason I bring this up, is Wonder Woman is still doing..."

+1! Thanks for sharing, John!


message 45: by Gary (last edited Jul 06, 2017 02:43PM) (new)

Gary Caitlin Duck wrote: "...anecdata..."

I'm sure I'll be finding a few uses for that term in the near future. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, and kudos all around to you and several other ladygeeks for your comments in this thread.

In any case, here are some thoughts on WW:

There are a few glaring plot holes, some of which we can put down to "comic book adaptation" thinking, and some we have to just go... well, that just takes me out of the movie. Getting from somewhere in the Eastern Med to London in a few hours of night sailing because Steve managed to "hitch a ride" makes less sense than an invisible jet, for instance, and there's just no getting around that one in a way that adds up. That the German officers' costumes were all slightly cartoonish with strategically placed, oversized (to my eye) medals, and (though I'm no expert) a strange mish-mash of WW1 and WW2 German uniforms is more "Well, that's supposed to look like it might on the page..." even though we're in an era when things like military uniform/awards are often portrayed with a lot of accuracy. They didn't go retro-70s with the clothes or equipment, but props are still props, so WW's shield and the "Godkiller" sword look much more like the product of a good 3D printer than something that came out of the forges they used to arm hobbits in New Zealand.

I thought the villains a little flat. Though the red herring-villains are suitably despicable ("They don't know that....") none of them really scared me, so the last third of the movie or so was pretty predictable as far as reveals are concerned. A general shooting a junior officer in the face to get men who aren't watching to work harder was actually kind of trite. Later, there's lots of CGI with CGI and some CGI on the side, which is fine, I guess, but at a certain point with so much computer graphics, I have to wonder if I shouldn't just be watching this on a laptop.

But, overall, I think that this article is on to something. They got more right in this one than they got wrong, which you can't say about the other DC movies, and that's almost certainly because of a few core leadership roles behind the camera.

It seems like an awful lot of superhero movies get made by folks who don't much like superheros or even comic books. That's probably less the case now than it was 20 years ago, when directors of certain superhero films boasted about never reading comic books as if they, the cinema nerds, weren't them, the unwashed comic book buying nerds. That seems to be the major problem with the DCEU films. A more "gritty" Superman, for instance, is one thing, but if one really wants to make a darker, less idealistic, even dour and depressing comic book movie, then doing so in the context of a Superman adaptation seems more than a little petulantly shitty. "Truth! Justice! And the American Way! ...for me to poop on!" as Triumph the Insult Comic Dog might say. The core concepts behind that presentation aren't particularly more developed. It takes a special kind of hubris to look at a century or so of idealistic comic book development and say, "Now, THAT is the venue for me to spend hundreds of millions of dollars portraying a dystopic world where everyone and everything is corruptible...." That's what didn't happen in WW. They went idealistic. And they did it while dancing around on the edge of T. S. Eliot's The Waste Land. How's that for literally flipping the script? The movie works for a range of reasons (good casting, comparatively peppy dialogue) but that "return to the basics" when it comes to what a superhero actually is and does, is also certainly one of them.


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