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General Discussion > Six Jolly Fellowship Porters

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message 1: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 829 comments Mod
Since we are leaving the marshlands of Great Expectations and traveling to the London docks, we need a different pub for our nightly (and morning and afternoon) libations and talk. So the Three Jolly Bargemen will be closing its doors, and all are invited to partake in the hospitality of the Six Jolly Fellowship Porters.

The fire is blazing in the inglenook, the best local beer is on tap, the wine is mulling, the barmaid has on her most winful smile, and mine jovial host awaits your company.


message 2: by Bionic Jean (last edited May 29, 2017 02:37PM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) And here we are:

"The Grapes" on the banks of the Thames, which was
the inspiration for Dickens's "The Six Jolly Fellowship Porters":


"A tavern of dropsical appearance... long settled down into a state of hale infirmity. It had outlasted many a sprucer public house, indeed the whole house impended over the water but seemed to have got into the condition of a faint-hearted diver, who has paused so long on the brink that he will never go in at all."


message 3: by Mary Lou (new)

Mary Lou | 2463 comments So many jolly people with pubs named after them! Glad to be here, and hoping there's a vegetarian shepherd's pie on the menu. If not, just bring on the chips!


message 4: by Kim (new)

Kim | 5978 comments Mod
Everyman wrote: "The fire is blazing in the inglenook, the best local beer is on tap, the wine is mulling,"

The Christmas decorations are twinkling.


message 5: by Peter (new)

Peter | 3212 comments Mod
I'll have some tea, some fish and chips and a tableful of friends.

Perhaps a quiz night too?


message 6: by Bionic Jean (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) I'm up for that Peter :)


message 7: by LindaH (new)

LindaH | 124 comments Everyman wrote: "Since we are leaving the marshlands of Great Expectations and traveling to the London docks, we need a different pub for our nightly (and morning and afternoon) libations and talk. So the Three Jol..."

Looks cozy. I'd be interested in some of that mulled wine, Everyman.


message 8: by Linda (new)

Linda | 363 comments A new pub to gather in - how exciting!

I am up for a basket of fish and chips, and something cold and refreshing to drink. I've just spent the long weekend working in the garden. Reworking the herb garden (my summer project) and planting the veggie garden. Both of which required extensive weeding first.

And count me in for quiz night, Peter and Jean. Time to work my brain while I give my muscles a break. :)


message 9: by Ami (new)

Ami | 372 comments Jean wrote: "And here we are:

"The Grapes" on the banks of the Thames, which was
the inspiration for Dickens's "The Six Jolly Fellowship Porters":
"A tavern of dropsical appearance... long settled down into a ..."


Jean, this is so nice! Great visual imagery.


message 10: by Ami (new)

Ami | 372 comments Everyman wrote: "Since we are leaving the marshlands of Great Expectations and traveling to the London docks, we need a different pub for our nightly (and morning and afternoon) libations and talk. So the Three Jol..."

I'll have Hot Toddy made with a nice rye whiskey! Thanks. Good to see all of you :)


message 11: by Tristram (new)

Tristram Shandy | 4665 comments Mod
From the marshes to the London riverside, that's quite some change - but the good thing is that we're still drinking in the old-accustomed merry company (new-comers being welcome, of course!)

I wonder if they serve German beer in this place? If not, I'll have a pint of Tetley's Imperial, to start with.


message 12: by Bionic Jean (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) Kim? Anything available on common drink in a public house at that time? I seem to recall Dickens regularly drinking a pint of sherry, which seems extraordinary, and I know the meals he had towards the end of his life were heavy on the alcohol and odd foods like giblets and jellied eels (which I would have though might hasten it!)

Maybe we should move a little towards what this pub now serves!


message 13: by Mary Lou (new)

Mary Lou | 2463 comments Jean wrote: "Maybe we should move a little towards what this pub now serves! "

I tried looking up the menu, but it wouldn't load. :-(

My great (great?) grandfather went to a state dinner in England back in the late 1800s, and I have the evening's menu and seating chart (he was quite a distance away from the king. Must have been Edward, so maybe the early 1900s). As I recall, the menu sounded pretty awful to this 21st century vegetarian. I think "aspic" was mentioned a lot back then. (According to Google - "a savory jelly made with meat stock, set in a mold and used to contain pieces of meat, seafood, or eggs." Ick.) The meals at the Six Jolly Fellowship Porters were probably a bit more basic than whatever they served that evening.


message 14: by Mary Lou (new)

Mary Lou | 2463 comments A timely coincidence:

http://dickenssociety.org/?p=1649


message 15: by Linda (new)

Linda | 363 comments Mary Lou wrote: ""aspic" was mentioned a lot back then. (According to Google - "a savory jelly made with meat stock, set in a mold and used to contain pieces of meat, seafood, or eggs." Ick."

Yuk indeed! I think I've seen recipes and photos of dishes similar to this in my old Betty Crocker cookbook from the 50s, and also some Jello-pamphlets I have handed down from my grandmother when it seemed like Jello was somehow incorporated into every meal if possible.

description

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message 16: by Kim (new)

Kim | 5978 comments Mod
Jean wrote: "Kim? Anything available on common drink in a public house at that time? I seem to recall Dickens regularly drinking a pint of sherry, which seems extraordinary, and I know the meals he had towards ..."

I'm not sure yet. Whiskey, beer, wine, it all sounds awful to me. I've tasted each of them, so they don't just sound awful to me, they tasted awful to me and I don't plan to repeat the tasting of them anytime soon. If you can find a nice glass of iced tea or hot tea (the one with the bag :-) ) I'll be there. Even soda would do.


message 17: by Peter (new)

Peter | 3212 comments Mod
Catherine Dickens wrote a cookbook titled "What Shall We Have for Dinner?" It actually had more than one printing.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

Bon appetite


message 18: by LindaH (new)

LindaH | 124 comments Enjoyed the article you linked, Peter. I would agree with Dickens, toasted cheese is a nice ending. In fact, do you think it is available here at the Jolly Porters?


message 19: by Mary Lou (last edited May 30, 2017 01:07PM) (new)

Mary Lou | 2463 comments Peter wrote: "Catherine Dickens wrote a cookbook titled "What Shall We Have for Dinner?" It actually had more than one printing.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201..."


Ah, yes - I'd forgotten this! I tried to find it online, but was unsuccessful. :-(

EDIT - I didn't remember she'd used a pseudonym. Here it is! https://www.amazon.com/What-Shall-Din...


message 20: by Peter (new)

Peter | 3212 comments Mod
LindaH wrote: "Enjoyed the article you linked, Peter. I would agree with Dickens, toasted cheese is a nice ending. In fact, do you think it is available here at the Jolly Porters?"

Toasted cheese would be delightful. I'll pass on the aspic though.


message 21: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 829 comments Mod
Mary Lou wrote: "A timely coincidence:

http://dickenssociety.org/?p=1649"


There was a TV show, I think BBC, where a modern family went to live as an Edwardian family with appropriate servants. Called, at least in the US, Manor House.

Anyhow, one of the dishes they were served was a full pig's head, brought in on a platter. This would have been a great treat at the time, but the modern family was not impressed, and asked that it be taken away so it wouldn't be staring at them from the sideboard as they ate.

Dickens would have found that hilarious, I think, and could probably have written an entire sketch on it.


message 22: by Mary Lou (new)

Mary Lou | 2463 comments Mary Lou wrote: "I have the evening's menu and seating chart (he was quite a distance away from the king. Must have been Edward, so maybe the early 1900s)...."

I looked this up - it was Edward, but when he was the Prince of Wales, in 1883. My great grandfather, who was with the Smithsonian, was there representing the US for an international fisheries exhibition. So not a state dinner, but an illustrious guest list, nonetheless. Prince Edward attended or hosted several events surrounding the exhibition. One wonders if he was truly interested in fisheries, or if it was just a tedious royal duty. I'm guessing the latter.

Here is the evening's menu, in seven courses:

Thick and clear turtle.
Turtle fins a la belle vue.

Trout, perigueux sauce.
Turbot, whitebait.

Vol au vent de ris de veau et truffes.
Turban de cailleteaux a la Strasbourg.

Saddles and haunches mutton.
Roast and boiled chickens.
York ham.

Ducks, Guinea fowls.

Plover's eggs in aspic jelly.
Clear jellies-cream-french pastries.
Iced puddings and souffles.

Sardines a l'Indienne.


Wow - not a tossed salad in sight! I would have had to do some creative rearrangements with my fork while anxiously awaiting the French pastries.

Another banquet he attended served eight courses. It's all in French, but these particular foods popped out at me:

Haggis a l'Ecossaise
Macaroni a la Creme
Asperges en branches

I could do without the haggis, but the creamed macaroni and asparagus sounds good.


message 23: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 829 comments Mod
Mary Lou wrote: "Jean wrote: "Maybe we should move a little towards what this pub now serves! "

I tried looking up the menu, but it wouldn't load. :-( "


I got to the menus page, but the actual menus were "currently unavailable." :(

I'll have to have a stern word with mine host.

In the meantime, you can safely order Steak and Kidney pud, Scotch Egg, Toad in the Hole, or other similar standard pub dishes. However, I fear that the vegetarian menu, being less traditional, will have to be requested directly from your server.


message 24: by Mary Lou (new)

Mary Lou | 2463 comments Everyman wrote: "Dickens would have found that hilarious, I think, and could probably have written an entire sketch on it. "

Undoubtedly! Reminds me of the Chinese restaurant scene in A Christmas Story, but I won't subject those with sensitive dispositions (or stomachs) to the video clip.


message 25: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 829 comments Mod
Kim wrote: " If you can find a nice glass of iced tea or hot tea (the one with the bag :-) ) I'll be there. Even soda would do. ."

We do NOT serve teaball tea. "You canna make a good cup of tea by dipping a mouse up and down by its tail in a cup of hot water." (Grandmother Montgomery).

You can certainly get a pot of hot tea, either India or China, your choice. Or you can get a Ginger Beer (non-alcoholic). When I was over in England I drank my way from pub to pub on nothing but Ginger Beer. I guarantee that this pub will stock the best selection of Ginger Beers available.


message 26: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 829 comments Mod
LindaH wrote: "Enjoyed the article you linked, Peter. I would agree with Dickens, toasted cheese is a nice ending. In fact, do you think it is available here at the Jolly Porters?"

Most certainly it is. Also Welsh Rarebit (a favorite dish of my father, who would always order it when it was on the menu).


message 27: by Kim (new)

Kim | 5978 comments Mod
Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: " If you can find a nice glass of iced tea or hot tea (the one with the bag :-) ) I'll be there. Even soda would do. ."

We do NOT serve teaball tea. "You canna make a good cup of tea by..."


Should I pretend I know what Ginger Beer is or are you going to tell me? And I have never even seen tea that isn't in a bag, so everyone must drink it. It's really the easiest way to make it I would think.


message 28: by Dianne (new)

Dianne | 17 comments This menu is making me lose my appetite, oh my. Well I could go for a toasted cheese.


message 29: by Bionic Jean (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) I think most of our modern dishes would have been unheard of for Dickens - and "Jello" was even unknown to me. The cooks of the time would no doubt have used gelatine though, as manufacturers of English processed foods do.

Do you remember when we were reading Barnaby Rudge and I posted a photo of "The Maypole" Inn which is very near here? Well that is now a Tandoori restaurant!


message 30: by Tristram (new)

Tristram Shandy | 4665 comments Mod
Jean wrote: "jellied eels"

You do make my mouth water, Jean! I don't know about jellied eels but smoked eels are a treat that I invariably enjoy whenever we spend our holidays at the Baltic Sea. My wife already shudders at the thought of our next visit to the island of Fehmarn, I'm sure.


message 31: by Tristram (new)

Tristram Shandy | 4665 comments Mod
Mary Lou wrote: "Jean wrote: "Maybe we should move a little towards what this pub now serves! "

I tried looking up the menu, but it wouldn't load. :-(

My great (great?) grandfather went to a state dinner in Engl..."


Aspic! they surely knew how to live!


message 32: by Tristram (last edited May 31, 2017 04:40AM) (new)

Tristram Shandy | 4665 comments Mod
The menu sounds like a wonderful thing to me, although I would not have liked everything. The plovers' eggs seem strange to me but you could have chosen the pastries or puddings instead. As to the third dish, it would have been hard to choose between the vol-au-vent and veal or the quail ... I am really and truly getting hungry now. I just wonder why there is no mention of vegetables? Surely, no one could have eaten all those meat-oriented dishes without any greens?


message 33: by Bionic Jean (last edited May 31, 2017 04:54AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) I don't think they believed in 'em. It was all meat and various innards :( And bread to mop it all up with - and a pint to wash it down!


message 34: by Ami (new)

Ami | 372 comments Tristram wrote: "Jean wrote: "jellied eels"

You do make my mouth water, Jean! I don't know about jellied eels but smoked eels are a treat that I invariably enjoy whenever we spend our holidays at the Baltic Sea. M..."


Your enthusiasm is infectious, Tristram. I'd venture out and at least try the smoked eel, if you were around...It can't be too different from barbecued eel, I'm guessing?


message 35: by Ami (last edited May 31, 2017 12:11PM) (new)

Ami | 372 comments Tristram wrote: "The menu sounds like a wonderful thing to me, although I would not have liked everything. The plovers' eggs seem strange to me but you could have chosen the pastries or puddings instead. As to the ..."

I just wonder why there is no mention of vegetables? Surely, no one could have eaten all those meat-oriented dishes without any greens?
My thoughts went immediately to digestive/colon health issues experienced by Victorian Society. But then I remembered reading a research article in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine a while back* discussing nutrition habits and more during the Mid-Victorian time period. Believe it, or not, their diet was actually nutritious and quite "similar to what we know now as The Mediterranean Diet"...
Our study of the mid-Victorian period shows that in marked contrast to the received wisdom, the mid-Victorians enjoyed high standards of nutrition. It indicates that a reversion to mid-Victorian nutritional values would significantly improve our own health expectancy.

You can look up An unsuitable and degraded diet? Part three: Victorian consumption patterns and their health benefits for further reading. I cannot link you to it directly.

*I happened to be watching Scorsese's, The Age of Innocence movie for the millionth time, and was always struck by the cinematography during the dinner scenes especially, and of course, the copious variety in foods that were being served at a single sitting. The era and geography are off, I understand, but i happened to come across this article in the process.


message 36: by Ami (new)

Ami | 372 comments Dianne wrote: "This menu is making me lose my appetite, oh my. Well I could go for a toasted cheese."

Oh, please...You know you love, JELLO. :P


message 37: by Dianne (new)

Dianne | 17 comments Ami wrote: "Dianne wrote: "This menu is making me lose my appetite, oh my. Well I could go for a toasted cheese."

Oh, please...You know you love, JELLO. :P"


Oh right! Especially jello salads! Everyone's favorite delight!


message 38: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 829 comments Mod
Kim wrote: "And I have never even seen tea that isn't in a bag, so everyone must drink it. It's really the easiest way to make it I would think. ."

Your Pennsylvania ancestors are turning in their graves to think that an offspring of theirs drinks dust. Which is the accurate term for the tea that goes into teabags. Dust.


message 39: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 829 comments Mod
Kim wrote: "Should I pretend I know what Ginger Beer is or are you going to tell me?"

And you the great Internet Researcher.


message 40: by Tristram (new)

Tristram Shandy | 4665 comments Mod
Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: "And I have never even seen tea that isn't in a bag, so everyone must drink it. It's really the easiest way to make it I would think. ."

Your Pennsylvania ancestors are turning in their..."


Dust diluted in water, that is. However, speaking of Dust, we are actually tuning into OMF where there is a lot of talk about Dust.


message 41: by Tristram (new)

Tristram Shandy | 4665 comments Mod
Ami wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Jean wrote: "jellied eels"

You do make my mouth water, Jean! I don't know about jellied eels but smoked eels are a treat that I invariably enjoy whenever we spend our holidays at ..."


I never had barbecued eel, but only the smoked variety, which is delicious. I wish I'd one of those eels here now.


message 42: by Kim (new)

Kim | 5978 comments Mod
Tristram wrote: "I never had barbecued eel, but only the smoked variety, which is delicious. I wish I'd one of those eels here now."

No! Not again!! It took me a long time to get the image of eating a eel out of my head when you told me about them last year, now it's back in there again. :-) Which reminds me, one of the men who is in our small group told me the other night - I'm not sure how we got on such a subject, but he told me that way back in the days when he was first working another man got fired for eating skunk. No one could stand the smell and though they warned him over and over he still ate that for his lunch. I'm still wondering if he was just making that up to make me shiver or if it really happened. Tristram, I'll eat one of your eels any day over skunk. Unfortunately, I have never seen one for sale here, I'm hoping we can't get them in Pennsylvania, but Everyman will probably come up with somewhere they sell them.


message 43: by Kim (new)

Kim | 5978 comments Mod
Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: "Should I pretend I know what Ginger Beer is or are you going to tell me?"

And you the great Internet Researcher."


Here you go:

Traditional ginger beer is a naturally sweetened and carbonated, usually non-alcoholic beverage. It is produced by the natural fermentation of prepared ginger spice, yeast and sugar.

Its origins date from the colonial spice trade with the Orient and the sugar producing islands of the Caribbean. It was popular in Britain and its colonies from the 18th century. Other spices were variously added and any alcohol content was limited to 2% by excise tax laws in 1855.Few brewers have maintained an alcoholic product.

Current ginger beers are often manufactured rather than brewed, frequently with flavor and color additives. Ginger ales are not brewed.

Ginger beer is still produced at home using a symbiotic colony of yeast and a Lactobacillus (bacteria) known as a "ginger beer plant".

Ginger beer has experienced a marked increase in popularity in recent years accompanying the popularity of cocktails based on it, such as the Moscow Mule and the Dark 'N' Stormy.

As early as 500 BC, ginger was used as a medicine and for flavoring food in Ancient China and India. In the western hemisphere, ginger was used to spice up drinks. During the Victorian era, it was used to brew an alcoholic beverage termed "ginger beer".

Brewed ginger beer originated in Yorkshire in England in the mid-18th century and became popular throughout Britain, the United States, Ireland, South Africa and Canada, reaching a peak of popularity in the early 20th century.

Brewed ginger beer originated in the UK, but is sold worldwide. Crabbie's is a popular brand in the UK. It is usually labeled "alcoholic ginger beer" to distinguish it from the more established commercial ginger beers, which are not brewed (fermented), but carbonated with pressurized carbon dioxide. Another popular ginger beer is Hollows & Fentimans.Hollows & Fentimans claims its ginger beer to be gluten-free. Crabbie's ginger beer is free from gluten in the UK, but not the US.


How to make Ginger Beer:

Yield: makes 2 quarts

Active time: about 45 minutes

Total time: 2 days

Ingredients
3/4 cup packed brown sugar (you can adjust to taste)
1 1/2 cups peeled and minced fresh ginger
2 quarts cold water, divided
2/3 cup freshly squeezed lime juice
1/4 teaspoon dried champagne yeast

Directions

1. Mix sugar, ginger, and 4 cups water in saucepan. Bring to boil, stirring to dissolve sugar. Remove from heat, cover, and let stand 1 hour to steep.

2. Strain syrup through strainer and funnel into 2-liter soda bottle. Add lime juice. Fill with cold water to within 2 inches of top. Cap and cool in refrigerator or ice bath until about 65°F.

3. Add 1/4 teaspoon champagne yeast. (Reserve remaining yeast for next batch.) Cap bottle and let stand at room temperature for about 2 days, checking bottle pressure intermittently by squeezing it or releasing the cap slightly and briefly.

4. When ginger beer has achieved desired carbonation level, refrigerate. Serve and enjoy!





message 44: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 829 comments Mod
See? Now you know.

And you'll remember much better for finding out for yourself than if I had just told you. That's what education is about!

:)


message 45: by Mary Lou (new)

Mary Lou | 2463 comments Everyman wrote: "And you'll remember much better for finding out for yourself than if I had just told you. That's what education is about! :)"

So true. You've reminded me of my father, Everyman. When I asked him a question, he would never just answer it. The two of us would walk to the dictionary or encyclopedia and look it up together. Even now, I'm never far from my reference books, and I use them often.


message 46: by Mary Lou (new)

Mary Lou | 2463 comments More terror in London. So very sad.


message 47: by Tristram (new)

Tristram Shandy | 4665 comments Mod
It really makes me very angry to see that we don't seem to be able to take efficient measures against Islamist terrorism. But as with any other kind of terrorism in the past, it's more or less like fighting a nearly invisible foe.


message 48: by Mary Lou (new)

Mary Lou | 2463 comments I'm sure many of these creeps are not invisible, but on watch lists and known to authorities. But there aren't enough resources to watch them 24/7 and civil rights being what they are, little can be done until they act. The balance between liberty and security is such a precarious thing.


message 49: by Tristram (new)

Tristram Shandy | 4665 comments Mod
The British police reacted very quickly and professionally, and so they probably saved some lives. I also found Theresa May's reaction very honest and adequate, and I think that our politicians could learn from her - but that's just my personal opinion.


message 50: by John (last edited Jun 05, 2017 12:11PM) (new)

John (jdourg) | 1054 comments Ah, this is a very cool section. I'm still getting my "bearings" with the Group as I plod with along with my reading.

I've never been to London, but I once enjoyed a river cruise up the Cape Fear River in North Carolina. It was quite beautiful, both the city part and then going into what I would call "the quiets."

I would post a picture, but I can't figure out how to do it here. Usually a right click, copy, then paste works, but not here.


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