World, Writing, Wealth discussion

30 views
World & Current Events > Manchester & Now London

Comments Showing 1-50 of 61 (61 new)    post a comment »
« previous 1

message 1: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13426 comments Condolences to our friends in the UK...


message 2: by Mehreen (last edited May 23, 2017 03:18PM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Condolences to the victims.


message 3: by Matthew (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) I'm glad people are choosing to focus on the victims. Right now. what's needed is for people to focus on healing.


message 4: by Leonie (new)

Leonie (leonierogers) | 1579 comments Just astoundingly dreadful. Wrote a blog post. https://leonierogers.me/2017/05/23/wh...


message 5: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13426 comments Leonie wrote: "Just astoundingly dreadful. Wrote a blog post. https://leonierogers.me/2017/05/23/wh..."

Strong post, Leonie


message 6: by Leonie (new)

Leonie (leonierogers) | 1579 comments Nik wrote: "Leonie wrote: "Just astoundingly dreadful. Wrote a blog post. https://leonierogers.me/2017/05/23/wh..."

Strong post, Leonie"


Yes, there are times when sitting on the fence just doesn't cut it, does it?


message 7: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 9464 comments This was absolutely dreadful. All I can say is, I hope they find the bomb-maker quickly, because we can assume there will be more if they don't.


message 8: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Ian wrote: "This was absolutely dreadful. All I can say is, I hope they find the bomb-maker quickly, because we can assume there will be more if they don't."

These bomb-makers are everywhere these days, it seems. I hope they catch them all.


message 9: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments It was an effective blog, Leonie and incapsulated many of the feelings decent human beings would experience at the atrocity.
I worked, in my callow years, in Manchester and the events took me back to all the wonderful people I then knew, so the murders felt very near. Why, why, why? That's what people keep saying. That's what politicians keep saying. That'swhat religous leaders keep saying. But no one answers. The silence is acute.
A twenty three year old man did this. Why? We can't ask him. Other terrorists have reasons; the IRA. The PKK. The Chechnyans. The PLA. EOKA. They all had (have) an objective to attain. But a twenty three year old man blows up over seventy people - because he's a Muslim. And not because the people he has killed are not Muslims, often they are. So where does the mind begin to contemplate doing such a thing? Is it because he wants to kill anyway? Deep down, perhaps for years, he has wanted to do something like this, something to show someone who he is; that he is not just another person?
After such atrocities I am always saddened that everyone concentrates on the how and not on the why. We don't need politicians to react, we need psychiatrists and behavourists. The assassins might tell us it is because of this or that, but it never is. It is about them. Or perhaps with the present bunch it is about going to Paradise. Then we need to tell them there is no such place. Paradise is what they blew up.


message 10: by Matthew (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) P.K. wrote: "It was an effective blog, Leonie and incapsulated many of the feelings decent human beings would experience at the atrocity.
I worked, in my callow years, in Manchester and the events took me back..."


People tend to assume the why, like blaming the person's religion or assuming its because "they hate our freedoms". You're right, we need to actually ask the question and not assume the answers.


message 11: by Leonie (new)

Leonie (leonierogers) | 1579 comments It's such a difficult thing to fathom - finding the why, and then understanding it, may we'll be one of the most difficult things ever.


message 12: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Humans have chosen wrongly from the beginning of times. They have chosen war over peace, and greed over temperance.


message 13: by Matthew (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) Leonie wrote: "It's such a difficult thing to fathom - finding the why, and then understanding it, may we'll be one of the most difficult things ever."

The best answers I ever read were from Gwynne Dyer, famed Canadian journalist, military historian, Middle East specialist, and a decorated officer with four different navies. He has a way of cutting through the idiosyncratic explanations and bigotry. I recommend reading him.


message 14: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Matthew wrote: "Leonie wrote: "It's such a difficult thing to fathom - finding the why, and then understanding it, may we'll be one of the most difficult things ever."

The best answers I ever read were from Gwynn..."


Idiosyncrasies, bigotry and racism are intrinsic to every culture. Nothing new about that.


message 15: by Nik (last edited May 26, 2017 05:19AM) (new)

Nik Krasno | 13426 comments There are studies that deal precisely with the question of motivation. Unfortunately, not all suicide bombers are intercepted, but those who are enable the investigators to understand what prompted them. Moreover, there are organizations that encourage, glorify and sponsor martyrdom.
Some of the suicide bombers pursue noble aims, but the axiom here is that targeting, killing kids and civilians is never justified whatever the aspiration, legit or not, and that terror is a heinous crime.


message 16: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13426 comments Regret to hear about a new attack and more victims..


message 17: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Regrettable.


message 18: by Mehreen (last edited Jun 04, 2017 02:24AM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Nik wrote: "There are studies that deal precisely with the question of motivation. Unfortunately, not all suicide bombers are intercepted, but those who are enable the investigators to understand what prompted..."

When the war led by the axis of evil, George Bush was unleashed on Iraq against massive public protests all over the world; children were killed and maimed in Iraq. Read John Pilger on the war of Iraq.


message 19: by Philip (new)

Philip (phenweb) Once again my capital city has come under attack, but we will not be cowed. The UK has defended itself against far greater threats than a ragtag bunch of insane religious fanatics who will achieve nothing but the deaths of innocent people.

They will not achieve a single political aim or alter a single parameter of UK foreign policy. The deaths and injuries are appalling and my sympathy is with the bereaved and families including the often innocent families of the attackers.

The attackers are not fighting a war they can win; they will not take territory. They can only change us if we let them by becoming a more restricted hate filled population that limits civil liberties in order to be more secure. There is a cost to freedom and unfortunately putting up with these stupid pointless attacks is a price we may all have to pay.

The British will continue. From the Armada to the Luftwaffe and the IRA all tried. These idiots will fail too.


message 20: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13426 comments Well said, Philip...


message 21: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13426 comments Mehreen wrote: "When the axis of evil led be George Bush was unleashed on Iraq against massive public protests all over the world, children were killed and maimed. Read John Pilger on the war of Iraq...."

Whatever happened in Iraq or elsewhere doesn't justify killing any single civilian anywhere else. Nothing justifies these acts of terror.

Specifically about Iraq, I think they had Saddam Hussein and its armed forces to care for it and the safety of its citizens, instead of invading Kuwait and defying concerns about WMD. Bush reacted (maybe overreacted), but Saddam is responsible. However, inability to stabilize the country and solidify its institutions may be attributable to those who tried to arrange the orderly retreat and transfer of power.
At that, each killing of uninvolved requires investigation and I assume they were conducted..

And Kim too will be responsible, if the situ further deteriorates...


message 22: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Is George Bush and his axis of evil responsible for the war and killings in Iraq? Nothing justifies terror attacks. Nothing justifies the war on Iraq when no weapon of mass destruction was found. To kill innocent civilians, be it in the name of terror or war is wrong.


message 23: by Denise (new)

Denise Baer So sad to hear of these terrorist attacks. I have no words to express how I feel. This is a very sad world. Prayers to all affected by violence and hatred.


message 24: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments The sympathy and support has poured in from so many countries, but so far, none from a muslim country


message 25: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13426 comments Mehreen wrote: "Is George Bush and his axis of evil responsible for the war and killings in Iraq? Nothing justifies terror attacks. Nothing justifies the war on Iraq when no weapon of mass destruction was found. T..."

I think Iraq war and its justification or criticism are open for debate and certainly a legit issue. However, did those 7 killed and 48 injured tonight in London invade Iraq, or include Bush among them? No. Mentioning of Iraq in the context of a heinous terrorist attack sounds like an excuse and justification, while there are none.
There are will be also those who'd praise terrorists and call them martyrs/saints/models for youngsters and so on. Unacceptable, yet it'll happen.

As of not finding WMD, I'll tell you this much. Could Saddam have proven he didn't have any? Of course, and that was on the table but he chose to defy and threaten. As the leader of Iraq he was responsible for well-being of his citizens. And his superhero army just fell apart. However, these cowards think they become real heroes, martyrs and whatnot when they hide and operate among and from within their women and children or when they attack unarmed civilians, women and children.
I'll give you another example. Stalin had precise intel that Hitler was gonna attack USSR. He ignored it and when nazis attacked they wiped out the most chunk of the Soviet army and as a result 20 mil people died to avert German attack. Ruthless as he was, he didn't care, but he couldn't be not responsible.
If you ask me what's better: reckless (Stalin) or overzealous (Bush) - I'd pick overzealous. Any leader of his/her country is elected by his/her countrymen and is primarily responsible for their safety. They pay him/her salary and finance army for that.
Does Trump need to wait until Kim hits Los Angeles with one of the missiles? Of course, not. He must do everything to prevent it. Can Kim defuse the tensions and look for a deal? Of course, he can, but he probably won't, while the fate of N. Korea is clearly his responsibility. Don't see much difference with Saddam's situ.


message 26: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 9464 comments Re Saddam, either GWB knew Saddam had no WMD or, like Trump and climate change, he (and close associates) chose not to. The UN weapons inspectors KNEW there were none being made, and there were no workable "left-overs" from previous times. Of course Saddam was an idiot, but whether that is an excuse to kill over 100,000 is another matter, while it s arguable that creating the conditions to form ISIS was not exactly less idiotic.

Back to the main thread, I think the real problem is how to stop this from continuing. If some Brit has gone and fought for ISIS, I see no reason why he/she should be let back into the country as a free citizen. It is all very well to have freedom of speech, but if you have radical "clerics" spouting hate, I see no reason why they should be permitted to continue. Somehow the state has to persuade peaceful Muslims to provide information about the haters. Quite often, in these incidents, there were clues that this was going to happen, but people who claimed to be good did nothing.


message 27: by Philip (new)

Philip (phenweb) Ian wrote: "Re Saddam, either GWB knew Saddam had no WMD or, like Trump and climate change, he (and close associates) chose not to. The UN weapons inspectors KNEW there were none being made, and there were no ..."

Ian - agree

Fighting for a foreign power is treason - not performing an act or preparing an act of terrorism. Their whole outlook is to overthrow the state i.e. the democratically elected government of whichever country. As a citizen of that country its treason and should be treated as such. They don't terrorise me


message 28: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13426 comments Did they identify the perpetrators, gave their background?
I must've missed.
As of how to prevent and tackle the threat, it'll require an entirely different level of treatment and prophylactics. Local Muslims should probably be the most interested in hounding the extremists, as they can fall victim just as anyone else plus cope with suspicions and bias that might be developing...
In this sense Trump's temporary limit on travel until a verified profiling system is in place, doesn't look totally unreasonable.


message 29: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin Nik, the flaw in that travel ban argument is that the three attackers in London yesterday were probably British citizens and local residents. So were most of the later terrorists caught/killed in England in the last few months, so a travel ban would have done basically nothing to prevent those acts of terrorism. The real problem now is 'homegrown terrorists' and 'lone wolves' inspired by ISIS propaganda, people who already live among us.


message 30: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 9464 comments Michel is correct that the recent British terrorists were home-grown, nevertheless a number of home-grown islamic Brits had gone to fight for ISIS, and I can't see that they are going to return home and become model citizens. Further, Abedi, the Manchester bomber, had apparently recently gone to an ISIS camp in Libya. Banning foreign travel may not be the complete solution, but even a partial solution is better than nothing. But I agree, the most important thing is to identify the radicals who are spouting their hate and encouraging the likes of Abedi. As far as I am concerned , that is sedition, and that is a crime.


message 31: by Mehreen (last edited Jun 04, 2017 05:28PM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Politicians need to wake up! Show some respect to the Middle Eastern people! They need to realise that it not a permanent battle ground between gods and the mortals. The governments both in the ME and the West collude at the cost of human sacrifice. This carnage must stop!!!


message 32: by Matthew (last edited Jun 04, 2017 06:43PM) (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) Nik wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Is George Bush and his axis of evil responsible for the war and killings in Iraq? Nothing justifies terror attacks. Nothing justifies the war on Iraq when no weapon of mass destruct..."

It sounds like you're using the "preemptive war" justification Bush did, that is necessary to strike at an enemy before they can threaten you. Are you not aware of the fact that this justification didn't come into play until after it was determined that the claims about WMDs and tied to Al-Qaeda were revealed to be lies. The same is true about Bush's claims that the invasion was conducted to "liberate Iraqis". In short, these were bullshit excuses used once the bullshit of WMDs and Al-Qaeda were revealed to be a total fraud.

And its already been demonstrated to death that GWB and his administration were told that these claims were based on fraudulent evidence. And yet, they pursued a case for war based entirely on these claims because they didn't care. Hell, it was they who assembled the phony case for war because they had a preexisting agenda to invade the region and effect "regime change". And they - by their own admission - chose WMDs and terrorism as justifications because they figured it would work.

Also, not only did Saddam not have WMDs or the capacity to make them, but to assume that he would have tired and then attempted to use them on the US (similar arguments are being made for Kim Jong-un) are sheer stupidity. The US has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, and anyone who attempts to fire a single nuke at them will be nuked thousands of times over. Nobody is stupid or suicidal enough to risk the total nuclear annihilation of their country out of an act of spite.

What's more, the invasion of Iraq, based entirely on bullshit reasons, resulted in the deaths of upwards of 1 million Iraqis. That invasion and that death toll is what led to Al-Qaeda in Iraq, the rise of ISIS and the entire renewed waves of terrorism we see sweeping across the world right now. Of course it's not justified, but it is what it is. Condemning it without considering where it came from, or making excuses for the actions that inspired it, is going to result in us just going around in circles.


message 33: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 9464 comments Yep, we can go around circles discussing WHY we are where we are, but let's accept we are here. The question is, now what?


message 34: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin Now, we hope that our Muslim citizens in our respective countries will rise up to the challenge and will run out the Muslim clerics who spew hate speaches in their mosques. The real solution is there, from within local Muslim communities. When hate will find no fertile ground anymore, then it will shrivel and die.


message 35: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 9464 comments Michel wrote: "Now, we hope that our Muslim citizens in our respective countries will rise up to the challenge and will run out the Muslim clerics who spew hate speaches in their mosques. The real solution is the..."

Indeed.


message 36: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments I agree with you Michel; there has been too much pussy-footing around the PC scene. I know more and more Muslim social leaders are speaking out, especially after Manchester where they have learned the northern habit of saying what they think, but the clerics have been miserly quiet. They must be speaking directly to the families during their visits to the mosques. They must be preaching not solidarity with their faith but solidarity with their communities. I liked the PM's intentions of being angry. We need some anger. We need to angrily preach that the people we went to war with in Iraq and Afganhistan were, are, evil, not Muslim. Their religion has little to do with their attitudes to other races, other beliefs. They have no respect for other peoples lives. This is a war with the egocentricities of people, like all wars, not with religion per se. I hope prison sentences are increased to life for anyone practising terrorism. And I hope Muslims are kept apart in prison and not allowed to practice their religion there. And I want the original proposals of the Terrorism Act to be reimposed, including Stop and Search. I am and have been a Liberal Democrat for years but this is war and war cannot afford too many liberties that help the enemy. We owe this to every person killed in Manchester and London. We owe this to all the European people who have struggled over centuries to make a society that is inclusive and fair.


message 37: by Mehreen (last edited Jun 04, 2017 10:51PM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Matthew wrote: "Nik wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Is George Bush and his axis of evil responsible for the war and killings in Iraq? Nothing justifies terror attacks. Nothing justifies the war on Iraq when no weapon of m..."

No it's not! Politics like this creates terrorism and bad blood in the first place. People don't apologise. Did the Brits apologise when they colonised India and killed millions there?

What now? To answer Ian's question, I'll repeat myself. Politicians need to grow up! They need to wake up! And they need to change tactics if they want to stop terrorism. There is no quick fix. History tells us that rise of terrorism didn't happen in one day and it will also not go away in one day.


message 38: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 9464 comments As I said before, we have to put aside the issues of why we got to where we are, and deal with where we are. I think that like it or not, we have to deny ISIS, al Qaeda, or whatever they want to call themselves, bases, which means get them out of Iraq, out of Raqqa, and anywhere else. That probably includes Libya and Somalia. They want to kill us, so they have to pay the consequences. I think we deny entry back to our countries for people known to have fought for ISIS, or trained in an al Qaeda camp. There will probably be a bit of unfairness here, but that is just unlucky. If you are a Muslim and want to go to Libya for peaceful purposes, make sure the trip is registered and you can prove you did hat you say you did. We have to bring back sedition laws for radical clerics. That does not mean we stop people from criticising the government, but that can be done in clearly peaceful ways.

Nevertheless it will be a long struggle, because as Mehreen noted, terrorism did not sprout up last night, and it will most certainly take a long time to put it out. However, the policy of Obama that tried to contain ISIS and al Qaeda has to be abandoned, because it just plain did not work. Equally, we have to stop trying to tell governments in the Middle East how they should govern. What we have tried also does not work there. Following General Wesley Clark, we have to find a plan that might work, and make it work.


message 39: by Mehreen (last edited Jun 05, 2017 04:37AM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Ian wrote: "As I said before, we have to put aside the issues of why we got to where we are, and deal with where we are. I think that like it or not, we have to deny ISIS, al Qaeda, or whatever they want to ca..."

However, Teresa May's cyber plans might.


message 40: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Mehreen, fake history does not help; we killed millions in India?


message 41: by Mehreen (last edited Jun 05, 2017 04:39AM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments P.K. wrote: "Mehreen, fake history does not help; we killed millions in India?"

Why, are you trying to say, it was all bloodless? Every life counts, be it a farmer, a doctor, a politician, or a rickshaw puller.


message 42: by [deleted user] (new)

I loved reading all these comments. It's satisfying to see everyone look at the big picture. It's not a race issue or religion issue it's a people issue and how we can all just get along and be more accepting to each other.


message 43: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Don't want to get off topic but, Mehreen, India is a great, complicated story and the Brits have more to be proud of in its establishment than not. Yes, there were some skirmishes because the country, like Iraq and other countries now in conflict, was divided into many regions run by autocratic royal families. Then it was all about commerce (The British India Co) but when the government took charge they made a country out of India. They did their best to stop it dividing into Hindu v Muslim regions but the Indians insisted on it against our advice. The result was millions slaughtered and we see the seeds then sown of the trouble in Iraq and Afganhistant today with the help of Pakistan. and that conflict is not over, the problem of Kashmir is still not settled. History is important to understand how people feel. Unfortunately the US has been bad at understanding that and has never taken advice from Europeans who do understand these things. That's how we got into Iraq - blindly.


message 44: by Mehreen (last edited Jun 05, 2017 10:17PM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments P.K. wrote: "Don't want to get off topic but, Mehreen, India is a great, complicated story and the Brits have more to be proud of in its establishment than not. Yes, there were some skirmishes because the count..."

"Some skirmishes?" You call people getting killed in Bengal, Gujrat, are generally all over india "some skirmishes? I haven't even started - Australia, NewZealand, America the Middle East, (Lawrence). I don't think you know your history of the British persecution, not to mention the dirty politics of divide and rule it played through out the world.


message 45: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments OK Mehreen, we know where you are coming from


message 46: by Mehreen (last edited Jun 05, 2017 10:11PM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments So don't expect an apology from anyone P.K

Nothing personal, mate. All good.

Speaking of which you can join in a group discussion of my book, The Pacifist. Ian Miller is leading it.


message 47: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 9464 comments Also, P.K., in fairness your are getting a bit far away from the topic. Maybe another thread would be better if you want this discussed more deeply.


message 48: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments I don't Ian; history is what the reader makes of it, unless one has experienced it. And I am old enough to have experienced a lot of it.
I have your book, Mehreen; I am looking forward to it. It has a fascinating cover; etching or wood-block?


message 49: by Mehreen (last edited Jun 05, 2017 11:38PM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments P.K. wrote: "I don't Ian; history is what the reader makes of it, unless one has experienced it. And I am old enough to have experienced a lot of it.
I have your book, Mehreen; I am looking forward to it. It ha..."


My publisher has done it. I think it's etching. Look forward to an animated discussion.


message 50: by Matthew (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Nik wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Is George Bush and his axis of evil responsible for the war and killings in Iraq? Nothing justifies terror attacks. Nothing justifies the war on Iraq whe..."

Are you sure that message was meant for me? I think you meant this for Nik - could be wrong though ;)


« previous 1
back to top