World, Writing, Wealth discussion

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message 1: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14968 comments With all the drinking and arguing we may be missing out on something romantic here. Time to set things straight -:)
Don't keep a record, but my initial impression is that the written gives men the initiative in the first kiss, while the visual gives it to a better half.
What do you think: who should venture such a perilous activity?


message 2: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments It depends watcha kissing, Nik


message 3: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 10762 comments If a person, hopefully both at the same time, otherwise there is something of a mismatch.


message 4: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14968 comments Yeah, a mismatch can be awkward -:)


message 5: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14968 comments Is it just my impression or have you noticed it too that in books it's largely men's initiative while in the movies - ladies'?


message 6: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments I think that's because most screen plays are directed and written by males and, in Holywood, the screen has been the outlet for men's sexual fantasies but with authors there is a majority of female writers and they are just following traditional mores that the male should be the predominant mover. But in reality sex comes from all angles; what young good-lookin male hasn't been attacked by an older female or what fifteen-year-old female hasn't made up to an older guy?


message 7: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14968 comments P.K. wrote: "I think that's because most screen plays are directed and written by males and, in Holywood, the screen has been the outlet for men's sexual fantasies but with authors there is a majority of female..."

That can be the explanation or maybe a man initiating a kiss doesn't look good or modern in current era...
Yeah, the reality can be much more extreme than fiction, because in writing authors strive to sound 'realistic', while the reality isn't bound by these petty concerns


message 8: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments you could expand the 'kiss' into sex scenes generally, Nik. I don't like the simulated explicit stuff on screen. Unless one is blind or deaf everybody knows what it's all about without showing it, but how explicit should an author be about sex? I think we touched briefly on that in another post, but it would be interesting to know if there are any boundaries for authors and what they are.


message 9: by Nik (last edited Aug 12, 2019 09:37AM) (new)

Nik Krasno | 14968 comments I think most commodities have their consumer base - some narrow and some broad. Taking Harry Potter for example, I think its uniqueness is in how perfectly mainstream it is - not too violent, not too complex, not too anything - just cute, nothing to criticize really.
And then there are the extremes of the spectrum and boundaries. The Fight Club didn't seem that cool after 9/11 and the recent cancellation/postponement of The Hunt's release by Universal seems very appropriate: https://www.usatoday.com/story/entert... as art has influence and artists & producers - responsibility.
My stuff is being constantly criticized for multiple sex scenes unnecessary for the thriller genre, but I don't like them explicit too -:)


message 10: by P.K. (last edited Aug 12, 2019 10:11AM) (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Horses for courses? But the problem is that courses change very rapidly; it is often the case that by the time a movie is released the idea behind it has been replaced by something else, hence the squeal from producers (and authors) for ' the next big thing'. But Harry Potter is a contrary argument. It is mainstream in one sense; that it doesn't offend anyone. But don't be fooled by that. What it was was a great idea at the right time; a boy with the ability to fly (Peter Pan), and use magic as a power-base over enemies. It appealed to all those youngsters who wanted to turn their tormentors (and parents) into toads and all those bullied kids who are now committing suicide because of social media. It was also very easy to read; it was a mum talking to her little boy (from a table in a sleazy cafe instead of sitting on a bed reading a story). But some sixty publishers and agents turned it down before someone liked it. I actually read the first book and thought that if I had been a publisher I too would have turned it down. That's how much I know.
I have also read her adult book 'Lethal White' under the pseudonym Robert Galbraith. It read well but has many fault lines. It proved she could write other stuff but I would only give it three stars here. But it did make for a good TV mini-series.


message 11: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14968 comments That's true, hence - the momentum is super important, like popularizing Atomic Vodka, as mentioned by J. on another thread, while the buzz of Chernobyl series hasn't worn out yet.
I've read a few Potters. I understand their appeal and I certainly take my hat off to Rowling for her Cinderella story & ultimate success, however the books, unlike many, never grabbed me. She hasn't lost much from my lack of enthusiasm though -:)


message 12: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Well Nik, if you read a few then they must work for you. But momentum is a strange animal. We writers either look into the ether and try to find 'momentum' to jump onto it or we just write what we want to write and hope it works. Rowling did the latter and, in the long run, writing what you want to write is the best way. But sometimes, like Jeffrey Archer, if you have money and the right help writing to a formula can also work - but, like most decisions, you have to be sure all the boxes are ticked before you start, and, like Archer, writing to a formula does not good writing make.
Rowling is now adapting Potter for the stage. Is that a sign that she has run out of enthusiasm or talent to try soemthing new? It can't be to make more money can it?


message 13: by Joe (new)

Joe Clark | 165 comments P.K. wrote: "Well Nik, if you read a few then they must work for you. But momentum is a strange animal. We writers either look into the ether and try to find 'momentum' to jump onto it or we just write what we ..."
I like your thinking. I am not Rowling aficionado so I can't speak to her experience. But I do know that authors such as Stephen King, Mario Puzo and John Grisham struggled for years to get their stuff published.
Write what inspires you but be prepared for a long uphill struggle. If you get lucky and hit a wormhole that takes you right to the top great. You won't be disappointed.


message 14: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Yes, Joe, I agree with that. I didn't know it took Grisham long to make it though.


message 15: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5791 comments I read the first Potter book and didn't see anything to deserve the accolades and frenzy.

Back to the original question. I can't say that I've seen a difference between written and screen kisses initiated by either sex. Most seem to be mutually inspired. If only one leans in, it doesn't happen. Now in the old days, the guy would embrace the girl and plant one on her, but that doesn't happen so much these days.


message 16: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Scout has resumed the theme of sex. It's not a subject that bothers me now (there's one advantage of getting old) but I am tempted more and more of late to shout a few obsenities into the ether since the Me Too thing took off. It seems to me (and a few older French beauties) that the movement is trying to change who we are (like vegans). As a natural genleman I have no truck with those 'grab n'feel' cave-men, especially not if they are using some form of power-base as protection, but I have experienced plenty of incidents where women have used their sexual allure to gain an advantage in business. The Jeffrey Epstein affair has awakened all my doubts about the veracity of women claiming financial compensation or instant fame for some historic grievance of a sexual association. The girl who is now whining about Prince Andrew taking advantage of her when she was seventeen is hilarious to me. Whatever some law might say, women of seventeen are about as helpless and innocent as Genghis Khan. And if they aren't, they shouldn't be staying over at some sleazy guys luxury apartment. The upshot of the Me Too fashion is that there won't be any question of who makes the first move; it will be, who makes the first move with a lawyer present.


message 17: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5791 comments If you've read my comments on this site, you know how I feel about Me Too. But back to the first kiss. Mine was at 16 in the back of a '60s Chevy at the drive-in with a guy who was as inexperienced as I was. That's as far as it went and was pretty disappointing. Anyone else brave enough to share?


message 18: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments As we don't know if you are male or female, Scout, that is not as interesting as it might be.
My first memorable kiss was when I was about 10 or 11. It was at a house-party and we were playing some sort of forfeit game organised by my eldest brother's girlfriend. She was the image of the great British actress, Margaret Lockwood. My forfeit was to kiss her. Kissing Margaret Lockwood whom I idolised? I'm afraid my emotions got the better of me and I snorted as we kissed with unpleasant results. After that I tried go to first base and forget the hor d'oeuvre.


message 19: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5791 comments Does it matter if I'm male or female, P.K.? Your profile doesn't designate you as male or female, but that doesn't invalidate your contribution.


message 20: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Not at all, Scout. But if you are male and snogging a bloke when you were sixteen in a car is more interesting from a socialogical point of view thatn if you were sixteen and trying to get your leg over ( the advantage of American cars for such instances was that they didn't have a gear-lever0


message 21: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5791 comments You sound like a real - oh, sorry, gotta go.


message 22: by P.K. (last edited Sep 17, 2019 10:26AM) (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Scout wrote: "You sound like a real - oh, sorry, gotta go."

It's no good coming to the party unless you intend to participate, Scout. I would love to know what I sound like; not many of us know what we sound like.


message 23: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14968 comments The implicit prevails over the explicit here.
I hope this discussion is in good spirit and just want to remind that insults or derogatory comments are neither allowed nor tolerated.
In my perverted perception, the first kiss should be something exciting, positive and memorable, although, unfortunately I don't remember mine -:)


message 24: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments And a sense of humour, Nik. How did you enjoy your elections. Get any kisses there?


message 25: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14968 comments Bona fide humor is welcome.
Our elections remind Brexit a bit, as they return undecided for the 2nd time around and would require some serious compromises to avoid third and so on rounds...
Other than that, it was a fun day out :)


message 26: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Except that your elections are more loaded than Brexit. I hope a good coalition results - for everyone's sake.


message 27: by P.J. (new)

P.J. Paulson | 94 comments My first kiss was at 15 with a boy from Indiana whom I met while on Christmas vacation with my family in Hollywood Beach, Florida. Our families were staying at the same hotel. One evening after dark on the beach we kissed. Quite romantic and good company, but not a very good kiss.


message 28: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments P.J. wrote: "My first kiss was at 15 with a boy from Indiana whom I met while on Christmas vacation with my family in Hollywood Beach, Florida. Our families were staying at the same hotel. One evening after dar..."

How good can a kiss be? Have any writers out there described a particular one. In my upcoming book, 'The Girl of Drovers' Hill' I did try to get away from the simple physicality of it in a seduction scene


message 29: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5791 comments To finish my sentence, you sound like a real subtle guy.


message 30: by Erik (new)

Erik Rodriguez | 3 comments Personally, Chapter 7 of Rayuela "your mouth" written by Julio Cortázar, describes the best literary kiss I've read


message 31: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Scout wrote: "To finish my sentence, you sound like a real subtle guy."

Well, thank you Scout. I know from your posts here and elsewhere that you are a regular reader and know how to read behind the words.


message 32: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Erik wrote: "Personally, Chapter 7 of Rayuela "your mouth" written by Julio Cortázar, describes the best literary kiss I've read"

A whole chapter on a kiss? I would like to read that. Is it in Spanish or English? I wonder which took longer; the kiss or writing about it?


message 33: by Scout (new)

Scout (goodreadscomscout) | 5791 comments Hey, P.K. I've been a little ill (like a hornet) lately, and felt called out by you in message 18. Thus, I overreacted. A failure to communicate, I imagine. Carry on.


message 34: by Erik (new)

Erik Rodriguez | 3 comments P.K. wrote: "Erik wrote: "Personally, Chapter 7 of Rayuela "your mouth" written by Julio Cortázar, describes the best literary kiss I've read"

A whole chapter on a kiss? I would like to read that. Is it in Spa..."


Dear P.K. I gave myself the task of looking for the best translation of the chapter so that you can read it in both English and Spanish, I send you the link in case you have an interest in reading it, hopefully you can tell me.
https://www.paolacaronni.com/paolas-b...

Regards!!


message 35: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Scout wrote: "Hey, P.K. I've been a little ill (like a hornet) lately, and felt called out by you in message 18. Thus, I overreacted. A failure to communicate, I imagine. Carry on."

I'm sorry to hear that, Scout. I hope you are feeling better. I know our little posts are nothing if they are not a social exchange so I am pleased you are able to communicate in them.


message 36: by P.K. (new)

P.K. Davies | 358 comments Erik wrote: "P.K. wrote: "Erik wrote: "Personally, Chapter 7 of Rayuela "your mouth" written by Julio Cortázar, describes the best literary kiss I've read"

A whole chapter on a kiss? I would like to read that...."


Thank you, Erik for the link. It was not disappointing. I read it in English and then watched the video and, not understanding Spanish, was able to follow Paola's reading with the lines. He has a wonderful voice, as liquid as the words, and must be a powerful presence in any group of poetry lovers.
It was fascinating to learn that such groups exist in Hong Kong too. I wonder how the present turmoil there will affect the poets? Does poetry suvive in violence, or is it a way of mitigating it? After all, the First World War threw up many great poets and poetry but I wonder at their ability of feeling poetic after witnessing such horror. Thank you again.


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