Sylvester Group Read April 2017 Spoilers thread

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

For final conclusions!

[Jackie]

although this was the bazillionth time I've read that book this is the first time the foreshadowing struck me when The Duchess, who writes books of poetry, did so anonymously "of course" but the secret soon leaked out!

odd I never noticed that before.

[Louise]

i think Phoebe should have stuck to her original plan of living in a cottage with her governess and writing books.

[Abigail]

Maybe Sylvester has more potential to become a good husband than some others of Heyer’s selfish, pampered boy-man heroes. At least he is focused on duty to others, unlike, say, Mr. Beaumaris in Arabella (though I like Beaumaris for his sense of humor). But I have to agree that it’s a little hard for me to imagine Phoebe in the lady-of-the-manor role. Her unconventionality and horsiness are fine, but her shyness is problematic. If Sylvester were to retreat behind the film of ice with her, she’d totally wilt; and starched-up ladies of the ton might successfully intimidate her. She might well be happier in her cottage with Batty and her pen!

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

She will have Sylvester's lovable mother to guide her though.

[Abigail]

That should help! I do love the dowager duchess.

[Sherwood]

Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "She will have Sylvester's lovable mother to guide her though."

Yes! And to (gently) whap Sylvester upside the head when he's being obnoxious.

[Jacquie]

Phoebe's grandmother was already in a way of establishing her in the ton when the scandal about her book broke. As she was more involved with London society she would be able to guide her in town with Sylvester's mother for more emotional support. Oh yes -- when she has children of her own, Miss Battery as governess to them!

[Amy]

I picture Phoebe spending most of her time at Chance when they are married. I'm sure she'll go into London for awhile during the season but she'll be eager to get home also. She'll enjoy dancing and going to a few shows with her husband but her passion is horses and the country. She'll also have "a ready made family" that will need her to look after them. She'll become mother to Edmund and will want to keep her MIL company. (Can't you just picture them up in the Dowager's room, drinking tea together, and writing in companionable silence?)

I expect that she'll get a great reputation for being a phenomenal hostess at country house parties. She loves to hunt and ride. She's sociable. She's does a great job mimicking people. It will be the thing to do to get invited to spend a week at Chance with the authoress and the Duke.

[Sherwood]

[Amy]

Jackie wrote: "although this was the bazillionth time I've read that book this is the first time the foreshadowing struck me when The Duchess, who writes books of poetry, did so anonymously "of course" but the se..."

I never noticed that either. What a great bit of foreshadowing!

[Susan in NC]

Amy wrote: "I picture Phoebe spending most of her time at Chance when they are married. I'm sure she'll go into London for awhile during the season but she'll be eager to get home also. She'll enjoy dancing an..."

Oh I like the sound of that! She is shy and doesn't really like London and the Season, so I think Edmund and the Dowager will be ample reason to let the Ton come to Chance - and they will, if allowed, I'm sure the announcement of the marriage will set the tongues wagging after the book scandal!

Phoebe may be an Original, but being a duchess and having Sylvester, the Dowager and her grandmother on her side will make her much sought-after, socially, I think. And she will continue to grow in confidence with the tender love of the Duchess as a mother figure, as that is something she has never enjoyed, even from Batty. As for her marriage, she will now be in the small inner circle of people Sylvester will do anything to love and cherish, so I think that will allow her to blossom as well.

[Pamela]

Amy wrote: "I picture Phoebe spending most of her time at Chance when they are married. I'm sure she'll go into London for awhile during the season but she'll be eager to get home also. She'll enjoy dancing an..."

That's a lovely future to envision for Phoebe! She will keep Sylvester human and he will (just barely!) keep her within the acceptable bounds of society. And I agree that she and the Dowager will become best chums, verbally tearing Sylvester's eminence to shreds whilst he tolerantly smiles at them.

[Rosina]

Amy wrote: "I expect that she'll get a great reputation for being a phenomenal hostess at country house parties. She loves to hunt and ride. She's sociable. She's does a great job mimicking people."

She makes fun of people like Ianthe (let's leave the Wicked Uncle on one side). That is not a tendency which is going to win her friends, and those she's already caricatured may not forgive her, when others delight in pointing out how Phoebe has shown them to be foolish, vain, unintelligent.

Would you want to risk being the laughing stock of her next book?

[Belinda]

I'm going to attempt to do my chapter-by-chapter analysis because a) its fun and b) spending more time with a Heyer is like spending more time with a good friend. :>

Chapter 1

- I think we have discussed how alike Sylvester is to Darcy in Pride and Prejudice. The opening might as well be at Pemberley instead of Chance. Perhaps this was not a conscious device of GH but there are limited ways to potray rich, spoilt persons of enormous privilege and wealth?
- I think GH must have really been reading her fairytales before she wrote this. There are a couple of fairy tale allusions - 'no bad fairy attended his birth to give him a hare lip' etc (Snow White). Also in Chapter 2 he talks of turning his coat inside out to go amongst the common people to find his bride (what fairy tale is that? I can't remember).
- I disagree with Queen Pooh Bear when she said he was selfish for not stopping to play with Edmund. I think he didn't want to stop Edmund's pleasure and the one person Edmund obeys is Sylevester and he didn't want to spoil Edmund's fun.
- Again, GH shows he skill in portraying men of all ages. Its a lovely passage where she talks of Edmund's god-like adoration of his uncle. It seems as if Sylvester is the only person who is strict with him that he heeds? Edmund does seem to also like John Keighley and the farrier in charge of the stables, but he seems to sense that John does not have the authority that Sylvester does and so he worships his uncle and respects and obeys him.
- WE get a nice set up via Sylvester's internal thoughts (told by the narrator) on duty and responsibility. His view that he couldn't keep his dependents whom are in his employ waiting capriciously while he goes off hunting despite the fact it is a nice day. However we also start to see the arrogant (dare I say it) side where he unquestionably assumes the mantle of his right to command.
-We also see an insight into him as a person - he knows he has a winning smile and "he would have thought himself extremely stupid to withhold what cost him so little and was productive of such desirable results". Is that manipulative or just smart people management? No doubt other persons of vast wealth and privilege might have been rude with their retainers? Again, GH makes it a book on the triumph of morality of manners so we know Sylvester is a 'good guy' through this descriptor. Also he doesn't 'treat his inheritance like a play thing' despite he came into it at 19 years of age. There are a lot of characters in GH books that we look down on because they gamble their inheritance away or dip into it like a banking facility. Sylvester seems aware of his 'vast payroll' and inheritance - he treats both with respect and care. Again, we are being set up to like him as a person due to his morals despite his occasional arrogance (which we will work on during the book).
- WE see his unremitting kindness and care for his mother. We are pre disposed to like her as she is an invalid no doubt suffering constant pain but doesn't complain and discusses the good things in her life and how fortunate she was. WE see that, Sylvester can form a close loving bond with a female when he chooses and he does not like even so much as a frown on his mother's face. He is very caring and attentive to her needs.
- Unfortunately he displays his ruthless side in front of his mother - offering to fire Augusta with no thought to her situation or empathy. Just as a side note - why do all the unlikeable female characters have such hideous names as Augusta and cornelia? I can almost tell who is going to be a 'goodie' or 'baddie' just based on their name alone. 'Ianthe' for example gives us an immediate clue - it can be translated as a purple or violet flower, but aside from that meaning it is a high flown Greek classical allusion - to a Cretan girl who married Iphis after Isis turned Iphis from a woman into a man. Isn't that telling? Nugent Fotherby might as well have originally been a woman with all his foppish ways and pre-occupation with fashion. Also the flower allusion shows how Ianthe is in the world - to be admired and feted. A 'pleasure loving creature' as the Duchess says in her insightful way. The Duchess is an astute reader of people (as Phoebe is as we shall see later).
- Sylvester further alarms his mother with his cold and ruthless listing of 5 debutantes that might suit his marital purposes.

[Susan in NC]

Well done, and thank you!

[Belinda]

Do you know the working title of Sylvester was 'Snowbound'? How better to throw two characters together to get to know each other than by having:
a) someone break their leg and must lie still for a week (Tom), and
b) snow them in!

[Susan in NC]

Hah! And now we have Snowdrift! Granted, she didn't choose that title, but she did get some serious mileage out of snow as a plot device, didn't she?

[Belinda]

Chapter 2 & 3

- GH shows her strong feel for theatrics. We are still in the middle of 'Act one' and still in the middle of his scene with his mother.
- Again we need to set up exactly what we want in this book - i.e. the heroine, whom Phoebe embodies.
- Sylvester shocks his mother with his pride and arrogance further saying he could have 'his pick of them' in reference to the debutantes.
- Jane Aiken Hodge says the Duchess is a rare character for GH 'an intelligent parent who actually pays a constructive part in her child's story' as its her intervention that gets them together in the end.
- Here is the set up of what he wants in a wife - basically a mirror image of his mother.
- Ianthe interrupts and we get to see the outright conflict and sarcastic comments that Sylvester makes. Ianthe is over the top and dramatic. We see her character precisely through her actions and sylvester and his mothers discussions after she leaves. i.e. she is easily diverted from Edmunds fate by the Duchesses comment on how delightful her new pelisse is. Sylvester points out she can't be that concerned if she is prepared to go off on a expedition of pleasure if Edmund is really at the bottom of the lake.
- Again - morality is all important - Sylvester would like Ianthe better if she was truly devoted to Edmund.
- Its quite amusing that someone told Ianthe she looks angelic with her child in her arms. How many modern celebrities (i.e. Kardashians or well paid hollywood actors or pop stars) treat their children like accessories? How much are they truly raised by nannies rather than their fame hungry parents?
- The concept of Sylvester being a 'wicked uncle' is introduced - that is an accusation Ianthe has levelled at him and coincidentally what Phoebe called him in her novel.
- The duchess actually suggests that one of these girls may reject him and Sylvester laughs that out of the park - he has 'a layer of rich marchpane' covering his faults. His mother asks if he wishes to just be desired for his possessions (rather than who he is)? He then heartlessly says he doesn't mind as long as she doesn't enact him tragedies.
- We see further evidence of Sylvester's arrogance and pride reflected from all sides - August repeats Aunt Louisa's comment that Sylvester 'knows his worth too well!'.
- The character of Lady Ingham is introduced. She is 65 - but 20 years ago why didn't she take charge of Phoebe when her mother died? Because of her indifferent health which we are led to believe is a bit of an excuse - i.e. she calls the doctor whenever she wants to get out of something disagreeable. She stuffed her house full of the antiques from her former residence (seen that device before). She prates on for 20 minutes about her health - perhaps an understandable pre-occupation given her age (65 back then would have been 80 in our terms given the poor health care available)?
-Lady Ingham 'forces her fence' with Sylvester by putting Phoebe as a potential bride in front of him. Sylvester is miffed not because she did that (as it taken hold of his mind she would be suitable) but because she did not do it adroitly and offended his pride. This book is all about pride. He childishly thinks of offering for another of the debutantes just to get back one back and Lady ingham but dismisses that as 'impropriety' of conduct.
- How did Sylvester develop such pride? He has been his own master since he was 19 with no-one telling him what to do. He has also been the master of many other people since the tender age of 19. Wouldn't that give you an inflated sense of self? Its a shame his uncle doesn't bring him into line and guide him - instead his uncle is telling him to set him self up due to his exalted position and 'keep a proper distance'. Oh the folly of being surrounded by bad advisors and with having untold wealth and freedom to do whatever you want to do. He does seem to have internalised a code of conduct but he cannot see when he strays into being selfish and arrogant. He probably discounts his mother's wisdom due to the fact she is an invalid woman not out and about in the world- that is a shame.
- Again, we see the set up for Phoebe before we have even met her by Lady Ingham when describing Phoebe's dead mother. She is not beautiful or particularly accomplished, not modish - looked best in a riding dress and said outrageous things. She preferred horses to any other man she had met and probably married the foolish Marlow simply because he was a clipping rider.
- Lady ingham describes Phoebe in almost exact same terms as her mother - she is not a beauty, has been brought up well and has quick understanding. She has respectable birth and fortune but doesn't show well to advantage with her mother-in-law.
- At the end of the chapter, Lord Marlow has adroitly invited him to Blanford park and Sylvester is congratulating himself on the success of his tactics.
- I have to say the first page of chapter 3 is almost a direct characterisation of Darcy. When Sylvester was pondering whether he was arrogant or not he thought he didn't reserve his civility for those of consequence, he didn't arrive a parties late or refuse to stand up for country-dames. He didn't leave early or leave invitations unanswered and he knew his tenants and was nice to them on public days. Very, very similar to P&P.

[Belinda]

Chapter 4

- I do like the minor character of Sibby - or Miss Sibylla Battery - with startling blue eyes and a big nose (described next chapter) - gruff on the outside but with a warm affectionate heart on the inside. What a relief that Phoebe had some confidants - her half sister susan and Mary (but NOT eliza) and her brother like friend of Tom Orde.
- Again - similarities with Pride and Prejudice. Lizzy had only her sisters for solace and occasionally her weak (indolent but likeable) father as her mother was foolish in the extreme. But don't start me on Mrs Bennett - one of my favourite foolish people of all time.
- How gruesome she was whipped and kept in solitary confinement. No wonder she feared and disliked her stepmother and hid from her in either the nursery or stable.
- Her father had the power to intervene of course but we are told several times he is a 'weak man' that can be mulishly obstinate and that he is indolent so turned a blind eye to what his second wife was doing. He grumbled when Lady ingham summoned him but seemed quite pleased a marriage had been set up for Phoebe. The only area he defended his daughter is when her interests co-incided with his - in relation to the stables and he defended her.
- WE are told Phoebe has a thin, wiry figure with a brown complexion however she has clear GRAY eyes (boom - my theory proved yet again that almost every GH book has someone with grey eyes and they turn out to be a protagonist). The vivacity has been beaten out of her yet she is quite clear headed - i.e. she knew the duke would hardly remember her. She seems quite self aware.
- I love the school room portraits - i.e. the spiteful Eliza calling through the key hole that Sukey (Susan) is 'the greatest beast in nature'. All the nicknames - Sukey, Sibby etc.
-Morality of manners - Susan is shut down when she points out the advantages of being a duchess as being 'vulgar' by Sibby.
- It slightly makes me nauseous that GH has romanitized being an authoress as something wonderful - (she has to justify her own career!). That Phoebe 'escaped' via her vivid imagination. The childish fantasy of setting up her own establishment is discouraged by Sibby. The fact that GH could financially provide for herself and her extended family through her writing is quite rare - one in a million not a viable career alternative for most people.
- We see what a friend and ally Tom is as Phoebe shared her manuscript with him and Sibby.
- Phoebe is portrayed as a real tom boy.

[Abigail]

I’m so happy you’re doing the chapter-by-chapter notes again, Belinda! You always have such sharp perceptions, and you remind me of all the things I just slid over without consciously noting. Thank you!

[Cindy]

Rosina wrote: "She makes fun of people like Ianthe (let's leave the Wicked Uncle on one side). That is not a tendency which is going to win her friends, and those she's already caricatured may not forgive her, when others delight in pointing out how Phoebe has shown them to be foolish, vain, unintelligent. ...."

I think those who may have snubbed Miss Marlowe would have a completely different attitude toward the Duchess of Salford. A grand title, backed by a socially prominent and wealthy family, can inspire people to overlook a multitude of sins.

[Belinda]

Susan in NC wrote: "Hah! And now we have Snowdrift! Granted, she didn't choose that title, but she did get some serious mileage out of snow as a plot device, didn't she?"

Absolutely Susan. Then throw in a convenient third factor (Kneighly's cold) that means Sylvester must run around and perform demeaning tasks below his station (to truly humble that pride) and you have the perfect mix!

[Belinda]

Abigail wrote: "I’m so happy you’re doing the chapter-by-chapter notes again, Belinda! You always have such sharp perceptions, and you remind me of all the things I just slid over without consciously noting. Thank..."

Thanks Susan. I'm perhaps a bit over the top and go on a bit but I'm amongst friends right? Right? Or at least those whom are also passionately devoted to the enjoyment of GH's works. You and Susan in Nc are very sweet and encouraging to those of us that like to go on a bit. :> You really must learn that all that does is encourage us to rabbit on more! Ha ha. For me its a function of free time - I only get a few hours free per week and my husband has kindly taken my 4 year old down the park a few hours with strict instructions to me to relax. No further hints needed..

[Belinda]

Cindy wrote: "Rosina wrote: "She makes fun of people like Ianthe (let's leave the Wicked Uncle on one side). That is not a tendency which is going to win her friends, and those she's already caricatured may not ..."

Yes - who was that other authoress of the period (was it Caroline Lamb)? that got away with it? One of the ton - all quirks are forgiven or at least given a favourable light as a forgivable 'eccentricity' rather than an unpardonable vulgarity.

[Rosina]

Belinda wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Rosina wrote: "She makes fun of people like Ianthe (let's leave the Wicked Uncle on one side). That is not a tendency which is going to win her friends, and those she's already carica..."

From the Wikipedia entry on Lady Caroline Lamb: "Lady Caroline included scathing caricatures of several members of those prominent society members.[9] One of them, Lady Jersey, cancelled Lady Caroline's vouchers to Almack's in retribution for her characterisations. This was the opening salvo in a backlash that found Lady Caroline blackballed from fashionable society:[13] although her sister-in-law, Emily Lamb, Countess Cowper, got Lady Caroline readmitted to Almack's in 1819, her reputation never fully recovered.[1]"

Phoebe won't have a sister-in-law to readmit her. Her Duchessness may protect her from total blackballing, but people aren't going to want to be friends ...

[Louise]

i don't think phoebe is interested in high society, she prefers horses. will be much better off in the country. If she had to marry anyone, i think it should have been tom orde. THe ordes are nice people.

[Jacquie]

The mention of Caroline Lamb's husband, Lord Melbourne, reminds me of how much I enjoyed his character (and the actor!_) in the PBS series on Queen Victoria. Rufus Sewell could play any number of GH's heros!

[Belinda]

Oh I must look rigid Sewell up. I've had a thought as to who should be cast as sparrow/phoebe - Anne Hathaway whom is thin enough. She would just need to hit the tanning beds and get a bit horsey.

[Susan in NC]

Cindy wrote: "Rosina wrote: "She makes fun of people like Ianthe (let's leave the Wicked Uncle on one side). That is not a tendency which is going to win her friends, and those she's already caricatured may not ..."

That's what I thought!

[Susan in NC]

Belinda wrote: "Abigail wrote: "I’m so happy you’re doing the chapter-by-chapter notes again, Belinda! You always have such sharp perceptions, and you remind me of all the things I just slid over without conscious..."

You absolutely add to my enjoyment of a lovely book, you don't miss a thing and as Abigail says, your perceptions are spot on and remind me of things I glossed over - it's like savoring the memory of a fine meal you enjoyed tremendously, brings it all back! Not just being kind - rabbit away! Especially if it relaxes you and we can enjoy the fruits of your labors, double win!

[Susan in NC]

Belinda wrote: "Oh I must look rigid Sewell up. I've had a thought as to who should be cast as sparrow/phoebe - Anne Hathaway whom is thin enough. She would just need to hit the tanning beds and get a bit horsey."

Oh yes, Rufus Sewell is gorgeous, those eyes! Too old though? And Ann Hathaway would be very good, I was also thinking of Julie Sawalha (sp?), who played Saffy in Absolutely Fabulous and Lydia in Pride and Prejudice - but again, too old at this point I think.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Louise wrote: "i don't think phoebe is interested in high society, she prefers horses. will be much better off in the country. If she had to marry anyone, i think it should have been tom orde. THe ordes are nice ..."

I'd like to have seen Tom given his own romance. He is one of GH's best secondary characters.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Susan in NC wrote: "I was also thinking of Julie Sawalha (sp?), who played Saffy in Absolutely Fabulous and Lydia in Pride and Prejudice - but again, too old at this point I think.

Julia Sawalha would have been perfect.

[Cindy]

Susan in NC wrote: "And Ann Hathaway would be very good, I was also thinking of Julie Sawalha (sp?), who played Saffy in Absolutely Fabulous and Lydia in Pride and Prejudice - but again, too old at this point I think.

Julia is 48 now! Hard to believe--and depressing, too!! The difficulty is trying to find a plain leading lady. That's not that easy to do!

[Susan in NC]

Cindy wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "And Ann Hathaway would be very good, I was also thinking of Julie Sawalha (sp?), who played Saffy in Absolutely Fabulous and Lydia in Pride and Prejudice - but again, too old at..."

So true - I would say no makeup and a dowdy hairstyle to tone down a beautiful actress, but they tried with Keira Knightley in the P&P remake and she still looked beautiful, just messy!

[Louise Sparrow]

Taken at the appropriate age, I'd have said Helen Bonham Carter for Phoebe circa Lady Jane/Hazard of Hearts

For Sylvester, Richard Armitage or Hugh Jackman?

[Susan in NC]

Louise Sparrow wrote: "Taken at the appropriate age, I'd have said Helen Bonham Carter for Phoebe circa Lady Jane/Hazard of Hearts

For Sylvester, Richard Armitage or Hugh Jackman?"

Oooh, great choices! But is Hugh Jackman too handsome and big? I thought Sylvester wasn't too handsome or tall? Richard Armitage in North and South - yes please! How do Englishwomen (and Scotswomen and Irish women and Australian women...) not melt into puddles every time your menfolk speak, those accents! Of course if you grow up listening to it, I imagine it becomes "meh" and you start actually hearing what they're actually saying, and unless it's brilliant or funny they just sound like any other doofus man...

[Louise Sparrow]

LOL that sounds about right... although there's a great variety in UK accents and some sound better than others.

[Teresa]

There are a variety of Irish accents from different parts of the country. Some of them are truly awful!! It can be a very flat, broad accent. And you're dead right about the doofus ones :):)

[Amy]

It is really interesting that there is no subplot or secondary character romance in this novel. It's one of the few that don't have one.

[Susan in NC]

Louise Sparrow wrote: "LOL that sounds about right... although there's a great variety in UK accents and some sound better than others."

I have noticed, I really only watch British television shows on our US public television stations so I've heard a wide range of accents - I guess they can't all sound like RSC actors!

[Susan in NC]

Teresa wrote: "There are a variety of Irish accents from different parts of the country. Some of them are truly awful!! It can be a very flat, broad accent. And you're dead right about the doofus ones :):)"

I know what you mean - some brogues sound so musical and lovely, and others sound more flat and harsh. And men of all nations can sound like dopes just by opening their mouths, no matter how sexy the voice or posh the accent! ;-)

[Susan in NC]

Amy wrote: "It is really interesting that there is no subplot or secondary character romance in this novel. It's one of the few that don't have one."

True, I would've loved to see Tom meet someone - even if it was just an introduction and show of interest on both sides. But she'd have to be really special, wouldn't she? I don't see him with a horsey tomboy, that spot in his heart is already taken; she doesn't have to be beautful, but I would hope she'd be warm and down to earth and have a great sense of humor!

[Louise]

Susan in NC wrote: "Louise Sparrow wrote: "Taken at the appropriate age, I'd have said Helen Bonham Carter for Phoebe circa Lady Jane/Hazard of Hearts

For Sylvester, Richard Armitage or Hugh Jackman?"

Oooh, great ch..."

i suppose it's what you're used to. The accents aren't a novelty if you grew up hearing them.

[Susan in NC]

Probably a good thing, can't have women all swoony all the time! My dear departed mother used to say she'd pay money just to hear Sean Connery read the phone directory aloud....;-)

[Teresa]

Ha ha ha! Good one Susan. He certainly had that 'something' didn't he!

[Louise]

Susan in NC wrote: "Probably a good thing, can't have women all swoony all the time! My dear departed mother used to say she'd pay money just to hear Sean Connery read the phone directory aloud....;-)"

I think foreign accents can sometimes be very seductive, i have known English women to be strangely affected by american accents, and also french, italian, spanish etc. and for that matter, scottish.

[Susan in Perthshire]

I am married to a Scot so I am clearly biased about seductive, charming Scottish accents! . Not every Scottish accent is attractive, but most are and his certainly is.

[Susan in NC]

Louise wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Probably a good thing, can't have women all swoony all the time! My dear departed mother used to say she'd pay money just to hear Sean Connery read the phone directory aloud......."

American accents, really? Wow, whenever I hear an American accent in a British tv show or movie it just sounds jarring! But French, Italian, and Spanish? Oh yes, like lyrical poetry for the ears!