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Intersectional Feminism > Why Hillary Clinton didn't win? Gender Inequality.

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message 1: by Goldberg (new)

Goldberg | 15 comments There are thousands of political articles right now that try to explain why Hillary Clinton did not win.
Obama said that one important piece of the puzzle was that Clinton did not campaign in the Rust Belt.
Sanders proclaimed that:"Hillary Clinton lost the election because the Democratic Party was more concerned with “raising money from wealthy individuals” than campaigning on behalf of ordinary people".
And yet I always feel these comments barely scratch the surface of the truth.

Hillary Clinton lost because she is a woman.

All the other reasons are true but, if a man had made all the mistakes that Hillary Clinton did, he would still have won the elections by a large margin.

I think this is at the heart of why Clinton lost. Instead, I am continuing to read comments that point the finger at her.

What's your opinion about all this?


message 2: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments Given the nature of her opposition it does suggest her gender played a role and her "mistakes" would not have had the same impact had she been a man.


message 3: by Gerd (last edited Feb 05, 2017 04:20AM) (new)

Gerd | 428 comments I've always been of the opinion that Trump vs Hillary was Americas touchstone regarding emancipation - and it showed quite predictably that America ist still more comfortable with voting a hypocrit, misogynist racist in the highest office, long as he's a man, than to give the job to a far better qualified woman.

Well, it also shows up a inherent weakness of the American voting system which allows the tail to wag with the dog if actual votes per head pro Hillary are to be believed.


message 4: by Goldberg (new)

Goldberg | 15 comments Gerd wrote: "I've always been of the opinion that Trump vs Hillary was Americas touchstone regarding emancipation - and it showed quite predictably that America ist still more comfortable with voting a hypocrit..."

In the end the majority voted for her.
Yet, I was astonished to know that 53% of white women voted for Trump.
53% !!! Why?


message 5: by Gerd (last edited Feb 05, 2017 08:28AM) (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Goldberg wrote: "In the end the majority voted for her.
Yet, I was astonished to know that 53% of white women voted for Trump.
53% !!! Why?"


I saw one statement on the internet of women who said she voted Trump because Hillary advocated killing babies... I guess the long and the short behind the amazing number of votes by women may come down to religious stupidity.

Edit:
No offense meant, except where offense is meant.


message 6: by James (new)

James Corprew Hillary lost (in my opinion) due to being a continued part of a broken system of corruption in America. But other factors played a huge part of her losing which involve her inability to connect with minorities in certain states that Obama had previously won over during his 8 years.

She also failed to connect with people over healthcare to which a good portion of people simply did not want to continue as a nation using a system that Obama had put in place. There are also undoubtedly a portion of America that did use her gender against her although i dont think that the was the crutch of her problems.

At the end of the day Americans as individuals will always vote for a candidate that gives them the best chance to succeed in America and in life. Not every American is a bleeding heart and cares for gays/lesbians, women's rights, minorities, etc. Some people simply care about their own loved ones and want someone who is going to care about their needs and their desires to make life better for them.

Trump is just further proof of how broken the government system is, he is the epitome of how far America has fallen with its politics. But because Clinton failed to win with the trust factor (email scandal) whereas Trump showed who he was on his sleeve people used him to send a message that they were tired of the status quo.

The problem in all of this of course is you get a man who is gravely unqualified to lead a nation. But because Americans continue to settle for candidates who are more self serving than actually caring about the general public its always going to be more of the same. We will continue to go through this vicious cycle of swapping out a left candidate for a right candidate every few years.

We as Americans need to get smarter, do more research when we go to elect our leaders. Simply leaving it up to the media and a two party system isnt working and the quality of candidates is getting weaker and weaker as we go along. Simply put, Americans need to wake the hell up.


message 7: by Robin (new)

Robin (z_rob) | 128 comments What's more, in America like in many occidental countries, people dont vote anymore FOR somebody, but rather AGAINST somebody. That time many didn't like clinton, so they voted trump. It's a bit short-sighted, but thats how humans behave sometimes..


message 8: by Mimi (new)

Mimi (missanalytical) Clinton and the DNC failed to pay attention to intersectional issues. While it was a factor, her loss was about more than just her womanhood.


message 9: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Peterson | 1 comments I can agree with Mimi, where Clinton's loss was about much more than just the fact that she was a woman.

What Clinton really failed to represent was a change where the average, working class American needed to see change. Trump, however radical and poorly presented, brought something different into the arena.

Unfortunately, Clinton also does not have the trust of the people, which also hurt her in the long run. I really feel that literally almost any other democrat that could have been presented as the nominee man or woman, could have won.


message 10: by Mia (new)

Mia | 13 comments this is my view on this
some people in my class(i'm 18) think that trump is better than hillary and they say from two evils better choose the leser evil(i hope that you know what i mean) and that is trump and he honestly makes me sick the way he speaks(grabb them by the pussy) is very repulsing and my english teacher(she's a woman) said she sympathises him and that he is a good president this honestly makes me sad and i am scared where is this world going


message 11: by Mia (new)

Mia | 13 comments i know this isn't connected to this question but i just had to say it


message 12: by Goldberg (last edited Feb 12, 2017 02:10AM) (new)

Goldberg | 15 comments Thank you, your comments are very interesting. I am trying to remove the gender factor here. But let's imagine this scenario : Trump was a woman (I know it's hard but). Do you still think Hillary would have lost with Mrs Trump?
I think that Mrs. Trump would be removed by the party at the first mistake.


message 13: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments People I know who are sympathetic to Trump do seem to fall into the camp he was the best on offer. To be honest this sounds like an excuse these people support and even voted for a self confessed misogynist, racist.

Who outside of a out and out dictator could possibility be worse than that. There is an argument that modern politics played a part peoples disillusionment is clear and rightly so.

However right wing elitist options have not changed they offed no alternatives they oppress minorities of any sort, women particularly. We need to let women know there are options; become feminist form political parties offer a real alternative to the establishment.


message 14: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Hey ya'll, I think I want to offer a different perspective, in particular to mitigate against this idea that "everyone who supports trump is a sexist/racist/xenophobe"

First, let's admit that Clinton had a mountainous optics problem. Emails, Bengazhi, Clinton Foundation, Big Banks/Goldman Sachs, The Dress; with careful understanding and thought, not only are these almost non-issues but Trump has significantly more damaging scandals.
But (as we've all just seemed to realized) the election had nothing to do with facts. It's all optics. Even though Trump has done these terrible things. Hilary is a extremely competent politician and actually not that many scandals or mistakes (but she's human. She has had error in judgment but whatever).

But people feel like she's not trustworthy. And Hilary made a major misstep by instead of meeting more voters especially in middle America, she used celebrities, which only increased the disconnect people her and the ordinary voter.

Now let's be fair. Everyone who actively supports Trump is complacent in sexism and racism. But frankly, most everyone is! How many people don't think they are a feminist? How many people secretly think their taxes are being stolen by the poor/immigrants? How many people just go through life without every advocating for a minority group? I would venture to say that nearly everyone is complacent in some sense, myself included. It takes a lot of consistent work to resist.

So between the horrible optics and the complacency, plenty of people didn't vote for Hilary and some even choose the "lesser evil" with Trump. It has less to do with right and wrong, and way more to do with feelings.

If we want to distribute blame, let's me offer a list, starting with those we can affect to those we can't.

First: ourselves. We had the burden to be active citizens not only in 2016, but 2014, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009 etc. etc. Local elections, state elections all affect the make up of this unrepresentative and corrupt system. But beyond voting, we should have educated ourselves by listening to others. Not only who we agreed with but who we don't agree with. Internalize their arguments and perspectives and work to teach them the other side.

Second, the Media. We've seen a total break down now in particular, but it's been in decline since 24 news cycles. Media tries to find the best story (think of click bait or the missing airliner) rather than the important story. This cycle also leads to the spread of scandals as "news" as well as the rise of fake news.

Third, The Republican Elite. Clearly they wanted to win. They stacked state elections to control re-districting. They've only further stoked the smear campaign against Hilary and Obama. They lie and cheat, like Garland or "Obamacare" or touting the "ineffectiveness" of the government they were in control of.

Fourth Special Interest Groups. The NRA, DeVos the new secretary of education, all of this money pouring into elections warps the system.

Fifth, the education system and the masses. Look, we have a real problem in America with school systems. We ought to be creating thoughtful, critical, open minded, kind, well spoken students. Instead, we make a poor attempt of creating a fact machine. And the result are easily gullible voters, who spread fake news without checking sources. Who aren't actively engaged in the country.

There is a lot of blame to spread around, but I don't want to keep this narrative of "us against them". There are only facets of us.

So with open minds, relentless hope and optimism, let's keep talking and listening and being active citizens. The journey will be arduous and non-linear, but we'll be smarter and more knowledgeable for it


message 15: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments Winston Wrote : "not everyone who supports Trump is a sexist/racist/xenophobe"

Well they support a man who is by his own admission all of those things they are supporting those values by default. So the very best they can claim to be is naive.

Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 3 millions she lost to the electoral collage, vast majority of whom are represented by white males.

Q.E.D she lost primarily due to sexism. Not in the general population but the establishment. Which with no sense of irony the billionaire Trump claims to oppose.


message 16: by Kathy (new)

Kathy Strickland (kathystrickland) | 2 comments Hi everyone! I would like to start saying that im not an US citizen, but I was recently there and I noticed the different opinions that are dividing the country. I was at the womensmarch and I saw so many people angry about Trump. I don't like talking about politics that are not of my country, but I would like to say that the US is a strong and free country, and they deserve someone who treats everyone equally, without discriminating, or insulting to try to prove more "power". I watched the debates, and I saw Hillary as a strong and independent woman. Im not debating whether she was a good candidate or not, because it's not my country, but I can agree that she inspired women all over the world, to be heard and to believe in their intelligence and strength.
Kathy, Argentina.


message 17: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Emma wrote: "@Kathy I agree! I don't like to discuss her politics (what she planned to do if elected, etc) because the election was so heated. But I do think she would've been a strong, independent woman as pre..."

Sorry, I'm a little bewildered. You didn't want to discuss the policy involved? That would, in my opinion, be more important for an elected official.


message 18: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Ross wrote: "Winston Wrote : "not everyone who supports Trump is a sexist/racist/xenophobe"

Well they support a man who is by his own admission all of those things they are supporting those values by default. ..."


Hey Ross, using QED doesn't quite work here as Hillary also lost the white women vote, especially non-college graduate white women. You're being very blanket. We've gotten into this before, where you seem quite willing to just stereotypes large groups as one cohesive unit. Again I'll politely point out that thinking is wrong and dangerous. It's also happens to be exactly what the other side is doing to you. Rise above, break the cycle, focus on science.

http://www.cnn.com/election/results/e...


message 19: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments @Winston you are in danger of looking like an apologists for Donald Trump is it your contention that sexism played no part in the election of this man given the nature of his campaign.

Millions marched the day after he was sworn in and nothing he has done has changed anyone's view that we were right to do so.

I stand by what I say if you support this man you are supporting overt sexism and racism. It is not stereotyping this man states what he is by word and deed every day the inescapable logic is you support those views if you support him.


message 20: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Ross wrote: "@Winston you are in danger of looking like an apologists for Donald Trump is it your contention that sexism played no part in the election of this man given the nature of his campaign.

Millions ma..."

And I quote my previous post that I'm having a sneaking suspicion you don't read :)

"Everyone who actively supports Trump is complacent in sexism and racism. But frankly, most everyone is! How many people don't think they are a feminist? How many people secretly think their taxes are being stolen by the poor/immigrants? How many people just go through life without every advocating for a minority group? I would venture to say that nearly everyone is complacent in some sense, myself included. It takes a lot of consistent work to resist."


message 21: by James (new)

James Corprew Winston wrote: "Ross wrote: "@Winston you are in danger of looking like an apologists for Donald Trump is it your contention that sexism played no part in the election of this man given the nature of his campaign...."

You realize you are just talking to a wall right? lol


message 22: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments I disagree Winston, there is a big difference from wrestling with years of social conditioning and supporting a overt bigot.

Progress to equality is being made every day. There was a time not so long ago when behaviour like that of Donald Trump would have been considered nothing out of the ordinary even normal. Now it is rejected even by most of his own party as extreme.

In the final analysis equality is simple. In this context it is just treating men and women the same. Respect there opinion equally.

I have been doing this for over a year now and it is second nature. Women and Men are equal once you really except that all the foolish prejudices and erroneous belief systems fall away. Really is very liberating.


message 23: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments James wrote: "Winston wrote: "Ross wrote: "@Winston you are in danger of looking like an apologists for Donald Trump is it your contention that sexism played no part in the election of this man given the nature ..."

Hahaha yeah James, I'm getting the feeling! No hate though, I've never been easy to convince myself!

Suffice to say Ross, the empathy you seem willing to extend to women [which we should applaud] you don't seem willing to extend to people who have a different perspective than you.

Plenty of people who voted for Trump may have a different set of values. That's totally legitimate. in point of fact, they have some very important points we ought to consider about Hillary/the DNC/the current system.

It's important, I think, to first understand their values/concerns without just categorizing them as sexists or racists.

Should they reexamine their value system? Probably. Treating women as equals (along with all minorities groups) is the basis of American strength, gathering from many views points to be more inclusive and better diversified.

But you seem bluntly aggressive about sticking to your views, which is allowed. I'm going to be done with this then :)


message 24: by James (new)

James Corprew Winston wrote: ".Plenty of people who voted for Trump may have a different set of values. That's totally legitimate. in point of fact, they have some very important points we ought to consider about Hillary/the DNC/the current system."

Thats kind of what i brought up in my initial post. There are people who voted for Trump that dont agree with the man's character or his personal beliefs but value what he has to bring to the table in other areas of their lives. Saying that everyone who voted for Trump is a racist or sexist is like saying everyone who voted for Clinton is a sexist because she happened to be a woman.

Its just not that simple since you have so many people with (as you said) different belief systems, values, and walks of life. When they go to vote for their potential leader they will go with the person that best gives them a chance to succeed in life as a individual or family. You can certainly look at any nominee and find flaws (Clinton had hers) but at the end of the day its always going to come down to what each individual wants that will give them the best quality of life for themselves.

Not many people go into the election process thinking of what it will do for someone else, but only what will effect them personally.


message 25: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments Feminism is progressing and even with set backs such the rise of the intolerant it will continue. The choices are clear to each person to follow there conscience and decide what there limits are. Personally can't see any benift that would allow condoning a man who openly displays contempt for women and people of other races.

If we reduce everything to a simple cost/benift analysis, well we can see the results unfolding around us each day.

Still we have plenty of people willing to work together, just look at the growing membership of OSS. Now is a time for optimism and to redouble the efforts towards equality.

Maybe next time we are called opon to vote we will do so with compassion and empathy and against the snake oil salesman offering the quick fix.


message 26: by Goldberg (new)

Goldberg | 15 comments Why 52% of white women did vote for Trump?

It is my experience that in countries where the women condition is particularly harsh, older women are the ones who "enforce" the rules on younger women.

This fact happens because of two reasons:
1. Older women can exercise power only on younger women, and they find a pleasure doing it because it is the only power they have. (daughters and daughters in law)
2. Older women obeyed to the tradition rules, and they feel that younger women have to follow the tradition too.

Is it possible that a similar unconscious mechanism acted in the most advanced country for gender equality(the US)?
Is it possible that 52% of the women thought that they had to "enforce" the fact that a woman can't be president?
Because they didn't have the possibility, etc.
What do you think?


message 27: by Robin (new)

Robin (z_rob) | 128 comments @goldberg sounds like a good analysis to me :)


message 28: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Goldberg wrote: "Thank you, your comments are very interesting. I am trying to remove the gender factor here. But let's imagine this scenario : Trump was a woman (I know it's hard but). Do you still think Hillary w..."

You mean if they resureccted Palin for the job?


message 29: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments Goldberg seems like an over simplification there were many reasons these women voted and over rode there moral imperatives. That being said the fact women don't feel empowered was certainly a factor. I would conjecture that not so many women would vote for him now.


message 30: by Goldberg (last edited Feb 12, 2017 09:51AM) (new)

Goldberg | 15 comments Ross wrote: "Goldberg seems like an over simplification there were many reasons these women voted and over rode there moral imperatives. That being said the fact women don't feel empowered was certainly a facto..."

I think that it is an oversimplification if you consider it the only reason.
Actually, here, I am talking about an unconscious mechanism. It is a sort of cultural background that, sort of, "creates" all the other reasons.
I don't know if I am expressing myself clearly enough.

I am interested in the other reasons you are speaking about, though. What were they in your opinion?


@Gerd "You mean if they resureccted Palin for the job?"
I admit I was thinking about her and I am quite sure the Republicans would never let her do a presidential campaign. Instead, they let his male counterpart do it, just because he is a male.


message 31: by James (last edited Feb 12, 2017 10:54AM) (new)

James Corprew Goldberg wrote: "I am interested in the other reasons you are speaking about, though. What were they in your opinion? ."

Here is an article where some women who voted for Trump were interviewed as to why they did so. In some of my circles from women i know (both old and young) their sentiments are pretty much the same.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/14/us...

Found this quote from one of the women to be pretty much how i felt about her.

"The first time she ran against Obama, I was all on board for Hillary Clinton. I really wanted to have a female president. I think that’s important. But I’m not sure that’s her. In the past, her stance on abortion was more the way I feel, just for the first trimester, then she did a 360. She was here in the primary, having a debate with Bernie Sanders. He answered the question honestly. When they asked her the same question, she kind of danced around it. Then she went on “The View” and said she was for late-term abortions. Just take a stance, be honest. Same thing as with gay marriage, she wasn’t for it, then she was. I’m 100 percent for it. It’s ridiculous the way we tell people who they can and cannot marry. Don’t go back and forth. Don’t pander."


Another article,

"All of this — along with other items on the Trump “wish list,” as Frable put it, like defeating ISIS and cracking down on border security — matters far more to her than anything Trump said about women or was accused of doing to them. Anyway, given Bill Clinton’s history, how can Hillary complain? “I have disrespect for Hillary for not doing more for herself, not standing up for herself with him,” Frable said. “That’s more damaging than goofball words Trump came up with.”

"Trump’s business record — the fact that he bounced back despite the ups and the downs — initially attracted Frable and her daughters. Frable also admires Ivanka Trump and felt she was one of the campaign’s “top three assets.” She sees Ivanka as a role model for Abigail in her own entrepreneurial interests. It’s not Hillary’s “Gloria Steinem feminism,” as Frable put it, that she values. It’s Ivanka’s sleek version of female success, which commentators have labeled “commodity feminism” — branding to sell products. “I’ve been paid the same as men, I’ve managed men,” Frable said. “I’ve not had any trouble working with men.” For Trump supporters that I talked to, college education didn’t seem to lead to support for the liberal women’s movement. Frable and her daughters oppose abortion as Christians. Other women called themselves pro-choice but backed Trump because they didn’t think he really opposed abortion or thought the law in states like theirs wouldn’t change even if he chose future Supreme Court justices with an eye to overturning Roe v. Wade."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...


message 32: by Gerd (last edited Feb 12, 2017 10:48AM) (new)

Gerd | 428 comments James wrote: "Same thing as with gay marriage, she wasn’t for it, then she was. I’m 100 percent for it. It’s ridiculous the way we tell people who they can and cannot marry. Don’t go back and forth. Don’t pander."

How do you get from there to Vote Trump?
You don't really believe that with his hatred against women and minorities he can possibly be pro gay-rights?


message 33: by James (new)

James Corprew Gerd wrote: "James wrote: "Same thing as with gay marriage, she wasn’t for it, then she was. I’m 100 percent for it. It’s ridiculous the way we tell people who they can and cannot marry. Don’t go back and forth..."

No idea, but the question was why women chose to vote for Trump. I just added to my last post and one of the bullet points was that some women didnt care about his personal character but what he could do for their families in general. I think while women in general dont like Trump's behavior i believe they found Hillary just too much of a hypocrite with her back and forth stances.


message 34: by Gerd (last edited Feb 12, 2017 11:01AM) (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Sounds like they just zeroed in on the lowest common denominator and decided Trump to be the lesser of evils. Which is an amazing ability to turn a blind eye toward the way he behaved himself up to, and during the election.


message 35: by James (new)

James Corprew Gerd wrote: "Sounds like they just zeroed in on the lowest common denominator a decided Trump to be the lesser of evils. Which is an amazing ability to turn a blind eye toward the way he behaved himself up to, ..."

Certainly possible as i had seen people i know on both sides of the political spectrum say they were doing just that. The stubborness of the left and the right was a primary reason why my wife and i voted for a third party. The polarization and divide that the country has right now is both sickening and depressing.


message 36: by Winston (last edited Feb 13, 2017 06:32AM) (new)

Winston | 180 comments Gerd wrote: "James wrote: "Same thing as with gay marriage, she wasn’t for it, then she was. I’m 100 percent for it. It’s ridiculous the way we tell people who they can and cannot marry. Don’t go back and forth..."

Actually there is a sizable gay vote that supports Trump. Two examples, the Deporaball during the Inauguration and Milo Yiannopoulos, a openly gay atl-right/kkk leader.

Interestingly, they are overwhelmingly white, which shows a little about intersectionality, and how that can causing some amount of confliction of views. They give trump the benefit of the doubt and hold Pence in reserve to (I assume) defend their white and male privileges [whether consciously or unconsciously]

[Eh, thought about that again. Second hypothesis, some are trying to "fit in", consciously or unconsciously, into the narrative and vote for Trump just to be part of something.
Additionally, some could be ignorant of their positions/interests or of Trump's positions/interests, but that's a weak position. Although, anyone could be ignorant of anything haha]

http://time.com/4642202/trump-inaugur...


message 37: by Tom (new)

Tom | 19 comments milo snuffleupagus being a trumpublican doesn't mean the lgbt community necessarily voted repub more this election than previously. Like, citation needed.


message 38: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Zaruyache wrote: "milo snuffleupagus being a trumpublican doesn't mean the lgbt community necessarily voted repub more this election than previously. Like, citation needed."

Like, I have an article in my comment. Like, I didn't say more lgbtq vote republican, like, some of the lgbtq community did. Like Milos is an example of how just being gay doesn't exclusively mean you're also feminist or for civil right cuz of intersectionality. Like, not everyone who voted Trump is a racist/bigot. Like, some of them are just normal people with different concerns than you. Like, be more condescending.

Yeah, I feel like I'm getting flack for saying "SOME TRUMP SUPPORTS HAVE LEGITIMATE CONCERNS EVEN AS THEY ALSO OVERLOOK OTHER ISSUES. THAT IS OKAY. LET'S LISTEN TO THEM AND LOOK TO A MIDDLE GROUND."

This is a reasonable point of view, ya'll fighting me like I'm outrageous at suggesting the possibility that they are also people. I'm with James on his shit, lots of different view points going on. Some of the concerns about Clinton/DNC/the current system are legit, though no false equivalence, Trump's way worse and he's proving it, but that doesn't mean everyone who supports him is a racist and to quote the all Holy Yeesus
"that's a pretty bad way to start the conversation"


message 39: by Tom (last edited Feb 13, 2017 08:20AM) (new)

Tom | 19 comments Winston wrote: "Like, I have an article in my comment."

article says there was a gay-friendly party for trumpers. Doesn't denote size of party or the extent to which the LGBT populace voted red this election. It doesn't show anything, actually, outside the fact that people who happen to be gay or be pro-gay also coincidentally voted or intended to vote trump this time around; two things that are neither mutually exclusive nor that shockingly bizarre, relatively speaking.


message 40: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Zaruyache wrote: "Winston wrote: "Like, I have an article in my comment."

article says there was a gay-friendly party for trumpers. Doesn't denote size of party or the extent to which the LGBT populace voted red th..."


Exactly, you're right that I'm right. Thank you for pointing that out. There is an intersectionality where there are gay people who also find it in their best interest to support Trump, even though he's not a pro-gay candidate. I don't know why they do, I'd like to ask and learn if I had an opportunity. it sounds irrational to support someone that is anti-gay agenda, yet be gay yourself. Assuming they don't hate themselves [maybe they do, I have no idea. Pence supports rehabilitation camps so...] just maybe they have other reasons for voting Trump.

Maybe, just maybe, not every Trump supporter is a sexist.
Maybe [look how nicely this ties into the topic of the thread]
Hillary Clinton didn't lose JUST because she is a woman.

Q.E.D. *mic drop*


message 41: by James (new)

James Corprew The Times posted the results of the Exit Poll which breaks it down nicely of which groups voted for who, etc. In this case when it came to the gay/lesbian community 14% of that population voted for Trump. While it doesnt go into their reasoning it does show that there was a percentage of them that did vote for him despite things Trump had said or did throughout his campaign. There was also 8% of blacks who voted for Trump, 29% for Hispanic and Asians as well as 37% of other nationalities who voted Trump. The link also does a good job of gauging what issues mattered most to people when casting their votes.

On a side note i think it should be said that i dont think Winston or I are trying to endorse Trump in any way but only show that not everyone who voted for the man looked at it through one particular scope. The fact that you had minorities and people of other sexual orientations voting for a guy who seems to be against them shows that they were apparently looking beyond the character of said man.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...


message 42: by Goldberg (new)

Goldberg | 15 comments After reading the NYT article (thanks for posting) and hearing your opinions, which are very interesting.

I am even more convinced that women, gay, LGBT and any minorities that voted for Trump voted for him based on an unconscious and irrational mechanism.

There were no real rational reasons to vote him.

But the first unconscious mechanism I proposed was very limited.
I think that, in the end, they voted for him because they felt more similar to him.
Similar attracts similar and Hillary did not have enough similarities with them, she was felt like the elite.

I will let you find the similarities between Trump voters and him.

Of course, this is a very irrational way to vote because Trump IS part of a billionaire elite who will do everything but the interest of the people who felt similar to him.

This already happened in Italy with Berlusconi, in UK with the Brexit. And I fear for France now with Le Pen(hopefully not).


message 43: by James (new)

James Corprew Goldberg wrote: "After reading the NYT article (thanks for posting) and hearing your opinions, which are very interesting.

I am even more convinced that women, gay, LGBT and any minorities that voted for Trump vot..."


Well, rationality is subjective depending on who you are. Im sure if you asked some Republicans on their feelings of those who voted for Clinton or even people like me who voted Johnson they would say we were "irrational" in our choices. In fact, leading up to the election i had many telling me i was wrong for my choice and that was basically making a vote for Trump which of course is absolutely ludicrous. I could easily say that those who voted for Clinton or Trump were not only irrational but incredibly stupid but the reality is they simply voted for personal preference and who they felt gave them the best chance to succeed with their life in America. Whether Trump can follow through for those who voted for him remains to be seen so the next 4 years will be interesting to say the least as we are in uncharted territory with this particular President.


message 44: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments Trump met with Canadian PM Trudeau. Trump acknowledged the contribution of women and proposed programs to encourage further involvement in business. The press conference did look like Trudeau was giving a masterclass in statesmanship but at least Trump appeared to be listening!


message 45: by Connie (last edited Feb 14, 2017 12:22PM) (new)

Connie Goldberg asked:"Why 52% of white women did vote for Trump?"

Well, I can't speak for anyone other than myself and the people/women in my family/social group, but I'll try to explain my perspective. And it had nothing to do with unconscious mechanisms, finding pleasure in exerting power over another woman, or "enforce" any rules on younger women to ensure a woman doesn't achieve political success.

First let me explain my demographic:
- I am a white woman, a retired senior military leader (25+ years in US gov't service)
- I'm a liberal feminism scholar in the vein of early feminists like Edith Wharton, Sara Teasdale, with a sprinkling of John Stuart Mill and Mary Ritter Beard...feminists who championed the freedom to choose their own lives and to compete with men on equal terms with equal opportunity-not to compete as men, and who attested to the endowment of women with reason and the capacity to establish their own self-worth, and who also considered the liberation of women to conversely bring liberation for men, freeing them from bearing a full responsibility for the well-being of society, and their families.
- I was raised and currently live in the midwestern US...a region that has been politically overlooked in recent years. I am a screenwriter, writer, and part-time college professor.
- I worked part-time jobs to pay my way through college because my divorced, blue-collar parents didn't have the financial means to help.
- I have risen above the effects of sexism and sexual assault.

Now, to answer the question about why I didn't vote for Hillary Clinton.
Short answer - I have never liked or trusted the person.
Long answer - When President Bill Clinton first took office, I was in a position to witness the character of his wife; she tried to impose a joint presidency on the nation and overstepped her bounds frequently. Then reacted poorly when reined back in. Let's not forget, that administration accepted payment / favors to stay in the Lincoln bedroom, and sullied the sanctity of the Oval Office with a cigar and a blue-dress-wearing intern, who Mrs. Rodham-Clinton (as she was known then) attacked while defending the molester. Politics is a fertile ground for evil ambition and exposes a certain ugliness within a person's soul. To me, Mr. Trump is an open book, his bombast readily exposes his warts; but Mrs. Clinton isn't as open, she hides her warts behind a smile that doesn't extend to her eyes.

I will gladly welcome the day when the US elects a woman to the office of the President, but let's be serious; how can we expect equality in the presidency when the most left-wing population, e.g. Hollywood, can't get on-board the wage/opportunity equality train.


message 46: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments Connie, Hollywood's equal pay problems are the same as any male dominated industry, they are male dominated and suffer from institutional sexism.

What I don't get from your elegant argument and others like it. Is the alternative to Hillary in this election was Donald J Trump. A self confessed, if that is the right word given he never apologised, misogynist and racist. who has no experience of politics. So far there have been doubts cast on all of his cabinet appointments and one National security council Mike Flynn resigned over links with Russia.

Anyone had to be better than this for the US and the world.

Stiill on the plus side at least Trump paid some attention to the masterclass in statesmanship given by PM Trudeau yesterday.


message 47: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Connie wrote: "Goldberg asked:"Why 52% of white women did vote for Trump?"

Well, I can't speak for anyone other than myself and the people/women in my family/social group, but I'll try to explain my perspective...."


Hey Connie! Thank you for your service! It's greatly appreciate for you to work for this country's safety and I totally get to take advantage of all that. I'm grateful!

I definitely understand the optics of Mrs. Clinton, she's as skivvy as any politician, and I've definitely heard from particularly military service people that her time in office has been fraught with misuse of power/dangerous use of military force. In fact, if I have a policy issue with her, it is how hawkish she is.

I do have a couple questions for you, if you'd oblige. Feel free not to answer anything you don't want to.

Did you vote for Trump?

Do his actions/statements concern you? Not only as a xenophobe but also as a leader/military commander? In particular, his thin-skinness and his lack of awareness for any military strategy or tactic? (I'm thinking of his "don't warn cities before we bomb them" idea, and the terrifying casualness towards nuclear weapons, that time he said he "preferred war heroes that don't get captured".)

And domestic policy, was his platform appealing to you? If you liked his maverick style, that's fair but then how do you react/think about his recent actions that favored his billionaire buddies but not the common people? (like rolling back Dodd-Frank)

Finally, I've had major concerns about his special interest conflicts. He seems to use his power to milk the government for money, like renting out space in Trump Tower, or having his family fill in as advisors, or the fact that his private interests are not in a blind trust, but are done by his kids. It seems he continues to have the option to fill his own pocket via the taxpayers dollar. What's your thoughts on this?


message 48: by Connie (last edited Feb 14, 2017 06:57PM) (new)

Connie In response to Ross and Winston: Ross wrote: "What I don't get from your elegant argument and others like it. Is the alternative to Hillary in this election was Donald J Trump. A self confessed, if that is the right word given he never apologised, misogynist and racist. who has no experience of politics. So far there have been doubts cast on all of his cabinet appointments and one National security council Mike Flynn resigned over links with Russia." and Winston wrote: “Do his actions/statements concern you? Not only as a xenophobe but also as a leader/military commander? In particular, his thin-skinness and his lack of awareness for any military strategy or tactic?”

I weighed the options leading up to election day with an optimism that I still maintain.

One of the major disadvantages of a military career...although it's also got advantages...is the frequent assignment / job changes. It never failed that as soon as I felt I was really good at my job it was time to change assignments, which meant adding a whole new skill set to my experience level. It was tough because I went from knowing what I was doing to being the newbie who had to learn the job, the personnel, the mission, the work location, the community, and the associated politics. I eventually learned that it took about 3 months to get my sh*t together...even when I was in a senior position.

Just like every new senior boss I've had to adjust to...including the Presidents...I'm giving the current President the leeway of learning the job, recognizing that he is going to fail, and assessing how he recovers from those failures. EVERY President that has taken office since I've been old enough to vote, and paid attention to the role, has had failures. Every one. But Trump is the first president to come to office under the microscope of social media with an opposition playbook poised and ready to react to each misstep, real or perceived.

When Obama took office his governing experience was limited and his diplomatic experience was next to nothing. (He was sworn into the US Senate in January 2005 and announced his candidacy for President in February 2007...so in truth his national governing experience was barely two years). His understanding of the Department of Defense was awkward and troubling. I was in charge of a division focused on support to force protection and anti-terrorism, and within six months of him taking office my job was hindered by regulations that focused on us apologizing for being America, while trying desperately to prove that we were, or rather our President was one of the good guys no matter what.

As for the assertion that President Trump is xenophobic; I don’t see it that way. He is working, although clumsily, to re-establish strong foreign and national security policy. To me, that means his first task is to consider the four basic, underlying national interests that guide all US policy--1) Defense of the Homeland, i.e. the protection of US territory, citizens, and the constitution; 2) Economic Well-being, i.e. to enhance citizens' opportunities and standard of living; 3) Favorable World Order, i.e. build a more stable world and friendly governments; and 4) Promotion of US values, i.e. emphasize basic freedoms and democracy abroad (without shoving it down the throats of other nations unless they are interested). I believe he has determined these interests have been unbalanced and out of sync, and unfortunately he has had to swing the pendulum drasticly in an attempt to regain balance/parity. To defend the homeland and the legitimate citizenry is not xenophobic, it’s nationalism.

Honestly, I've cringed at some of the tweets and knee-jerk reactions that have come out of the White House. If I were in a position to suggest it, I would insist upon a 1hr delay and a sense check before any of the President's tweets were posted. And I would invite the DC Toastmasters club for a couple of luncheons to help with his awkward, awful briefing style. He lacks the charisma to go 'off-script', which is incredibly off-putting, and adds fodder to his critics' playbook.

With regard to the statement, he's a "self-confessed, if that is the right word given he never apologized, misogynist and racist" I counter with a question...Have you looked-into, researched, etc. Bill Clinton's record, or even Hillary's, on the subject of misogyny? Or considered the record of JFK? I have not seen a fact-based report attesting to Donald Trump's misogynistic actions; I've heard the words, but haven't seen the evidence of any actual actions. He's a germophobe; I can't imagine him actually grabbing a woman's crotch, much less smoking a cigar after he has violated a woman’s vagina with it. And Hillary has been known to pit women against each other for her own gain (not a very female-friendly attribute). Sure I can imagine Trump talking trash; he’s a guy...as the frequently lone female on an aircrew of 23, you can bet that I have heard lots of god-awful, macho trash talk, but the words never equated to acts, and if I pushed back or called-their-bluff, the majority of those men would shrink back away from action. Is that type of talk or attitude right? No, but it's reality and as long as men equate their masculinity with their sexual prowess, it will happen. And as long as women grade themselves according to their attractiveness, they will doll themselves up in the hope of attracting the attention of every man in the room...and to show up any other women...yet they have no intention of going home with every, or any man; that’s not the goal. As humans, we do stupid stuff to establish our place on the social ladder, or to achieve status among peers or subordinates...and while we’d like to think our political leaders are above such petty humanity, it’s delusional.

I also have no fact-based evidence that the President is a racist. I'm not thrilled with the diversity of his cabinet picks, but I recognize he picked from a pool of his peer-group because he knew he was venturing into a world that was way out of his comfort zone. The cabinet is a fluid entity, but comfort and trust in its guidance is vital. Obama was a civil rights attorney before seeking public office, and he surrounded himself with similar-minded peers...but to Trump's credit, he's also seeking the counsel of those who have been critical of him. Many presidents didn’t; Jimmy Carter for one.

Is there anyone who would be better for the US and the world? There is absolutely no way to know this...he's been in office for less than a month and hasn't had the chance to succeed or fail. The hellbent-on-obstruction members of Congress are doing everything in their power to hinder his ability to succeed, and in the process they're hindering the nation's ability to succeed and get past the election and the transition period. This schadenfreude is detrimental to everyone.

As for General Flynn...again I'm a fact-based analyst. People can spout conspiracy theories for and against him. The fact is he served the US for a good, long time. I have crossed paths with him professionally, and I have my opinions, but they’re mine.


message 49: by Lena (new)

Lena | 9 comments I discussed this question with lots of people here in Lima. I think the people are afraid of lots of reasons. So it´s very easy to believe that one man knows the answer and knows what is to do. It´s easy to give your responsibility to him.
The people also voted for Trump, because he has a big company and he is rich and he´s a man. He is successful. The second reason is that Trump says sentences like "make America great again". He gaves ordinary people the feeling of beeing important, because they are americans and can be proud of this.


message 50: by Ross (last edited Feb 15, 2017 12:17AM) (new)

Ross | 1444 comments There is to be clear no need to speculate on Trump's bigotries; Bans on seven countries that he feels are "bad dudes". Grabbing women by there pussy, his words not mine.

These examples were filmed and subsequently acknowledged by the man himself. So the question becomes why people, women in particular, chose to ignore those facts. It points to lack of faith in politicians in general. Understandable certainly but we have to communicate to women that men like Trump can never be an alternative. Women's rights have progressed beyond that and the cost of people with extreme views like Trump is to high for everyone.


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