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World & Current Events > Why wall? Why pay?

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message 1: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14868 comments In the light of 'mini-crisis' with Mexico, I'd like to hear opinions and explanations. I can understand why the wall might be needed or wanted, but why Mexico is required to pay for it, if it's not interested in building it?


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Utter stupidity.


message 3: by Michel (last edited Jan 27, 2017 02:29AM) (new)

Michel Poulin Another delusion from the great leader Trump. Next, he will say that the Democrats are preparing a coup d'état to oust him, with his minister of propaganda (Kellyann Conway) and Media basher in chief (Sean Spicer) insisting that they have alternative facts to prove this.


message 4: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Michel wrote: "Another delusion from the great leader Trump."

No wall is high enough to keep people out. If there is a will, there is a way.


message 5: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin Or they can go under it.


message 6: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Michel wrote: "Or they can go under it."

Dig in LOL Literally.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments It's to keep out all the nasty women.


message 8: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin In Spanish, they are called the 'Mala Mujeres'.


message 9: by Philip (new)

Philip (phenweb) | 0 comments We have a whole channel and still we have illegal entry and I don't mean through the channel tunnel.
Vehicles, planes, ships, boats probably even swimmers. If people are desperate they will find away.
As for paying 20% tax as proposed on Mexican imports means US buyers will pay
I would recommend Mexico builds a wall to prevent Americans fleeing south or going to Mexican towns on the border to get cheap prescriptions / beer / food. I'm sure Mexico can impose border controls too.

Perhaps Canada should do the same and charge America for the pipeline from Alaska or just do a Russia and turn it off. Still he's said nothing about Canada yet - perhaps Trudeau is a big buddy?

In the meantime if the wall is built perhaps Mexicans can fly to Canada then cross south?


message 10: by Michael (last edited Jan 27, 2017 07:58AM) (new)

Michael Fattorosi | 477 comments If you want to get rid of illegal aliens its very easy and you dont need a wall.

1) you block all out going swift transfers to Mexico from the US. That dries up $25 billion a year that leaves this country to help support families in Mexico. Now there is little financial reason to come to America to send money back home.

Then to get your money back home you have to illegally transport it yourself or give it to someone else. Not likely to happen.

2) You allow US citizens to report businesses that hire illegal aliens and provide them a % of the back taxes and fines the company owes to incentivize self-policing.

3) You cull the list of social security numbers to see how many payments are being made into each one. When I did employment law, an illegal alien could easily purchase the social security number of a deceased individual on the streets of Los Angeles for $100 and have fake docs made for a little more so it appeared they were legal.

Those are 3 easy steps to keep out illegal aliens. Mostly once you take away the illusion of the "American dream" there is no reason to come here.

But a wall will protect the southern border from drugs/guns/terrorists ect so really its a two issue problem, not just illegals.

Even if only that $25 billion a year was stopped from going into the Mexican economy every year it would devastate them. Im sure they would be willing to pay $10-$12 billion for the wall to keep that pipeline of US funds coming.

Thats $100 billion or more over Trump's 4 yrs - why wouldnt they pay 10% of that for the wall ?


message 11: by Philip (new)

Philip (phenweb) | 0 comments Michael wrote: "If you want to get rid of illegal aliens its very easy and you dont need a wall.

1) you block all out going swift transfers to Mexico from the US. That dries up $25 billion a year that leaves thi..."


I don't know what the numbers are so is this a net figure or gross?

I presume the Swift transfers also covers all legitimate payments from companies e.g. tourist payments for US citizens visiting Cancun, etc.? Business to business links not using BACS/CHAPS, US Government payments etc.? How much comes back the other way for US citizens transferring money into US accounts? Do we know what the ultimate destination of the money is e.g. a charity HQ in Mexico that distributes money to Peru.

Of course some of this may be illegal immigrants sending money home. Some could be legal immigrants sending money to relatives, friends acquaintances, charities etc. How will this excellent idea be policed? Is that more border guards or treasury officials checking every Swift transfer, because I could send the money to Canada for onward transmission to Mexico?

Should help boost employment statistics in the federal government but isn't part of the plan to reduce government spending on federal agencies i.e. smaller government?

I'm not directly affected being across the Atlantic but I did use to live on the US side of the Mexican border so I have experienced the direct border guard issue and impact on local economy of illegal working, hospitals schools etc.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Michael wrote: "If you want to get rid of illegal aliens its very easy and you dont need a wall.

1) you block all out going swift transfers to Mexico from the US. That dries up $25 billion a year that leaves thi..."


If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doing what they want with it, including sending it home. In fact, if an undocumented worker is supporting a large extended family those are 5 or 6 of his family members who 'don't* feel the need to come to the US.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments If Trump is against undocumented workers why has he consistently hired them on his construction sites?


message 14: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14868 comments Re: SWIFT, I'm not sure not-bank money transfers, like Western Union, Moneygram and others use swift. Wire is an expensive system. From what I see most foreign workers use 'cheaper' platforms and cash-given, cash-received options..
PayPal too ..


message 15: by Michael (last edited Jan 27, 2017 09:30AM) (new)

Michael Fattorosi | 477 comments Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doing what they want with it, including sending it home. "

Just because you earned it doesnt mean you can do whatever you want with the money. Its technically not yours. It belongs to the Federal Reserve, or the US government - not you. Its really just an IOU.

Try buying $20,000 worth of Nickels and melting them down. You will be arrested.

Section 331 of Title 18 of the United States code provides criminal penalties for anyone who fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the Mints of the United States.

If I want to support a terror group with my money, the US government has the right to stop those transfers as well. We longer live in an age of indelible rights. Your rights or lack there of are now based on the US government.

Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If Trump is against undocumented workers why has he consistently hired them on his construction sites?"

Every employer is for cheap slave labor. He was no different when he was just a business owner. If you can hire a Mexican for $4 per hour or an American for $11 per hour, 99% of all business owners will take the Mexican and maximize profits. As President he has to take a slightly different approach.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doing what they want with it, including sending it home. "

Just because you ..."


Your points about what one does with his/her money is valid but doesn't speak to the fact that sending money to family in Mexico is not illegal. Therefore they aren't breaking laws by doing so. As for your last statement that is not entirely true. I personally know business owners who refuse to hire undocumented workers. Trump broke the law by doing so and now he wants the same taxpayers he cheated to pay for his wall. It's the act of a despot.


message 17: by Michael (new)

Michael Fattorosi | 477 comments Its not illegal, until and if its made illegal. Try sending a wire to Iran and see what happens. Wire transfers to certain areas and countries raise red flags under the Patriot Act. What is the difference between an Iranian sending money home to support his/her family and a Mexican doing it. Only one thing - the US government has decided it is different.

Im sure there are some employers that wont. There are severe criminal penalties for doing so, however those penalties are hardly enforced. Im not sure where you are located but in Los Angeles, it is a much larger problem. Ive handled class actions vs. car washes for underpaying illegal aliens and not following wage/OT laws.


message 18: by Michael (new)

Michael Fattorosi | 477 comments Nik wrote: "Re: SWIFT, I'm not sure not-bank money transfers, like Western Union, Moneygram and others use swift. Wire is an expensive system. From what I see most foreign workers use 'cheaper' platforms and c..."

WU if you're sending it to a bank then yes, it uses SWIFT. If its cash in-cash out, then no. Moneygram no. Paypal is a bank as well.

With a Republican held Congress it wouldnt take much to pass a law preventing/disabling the cash in-cash out system anyway.


message 19: by Matthew (last edited Jan 27, 2017 10:47AM) (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doing what they want with it, including sending it home. "

Just because you ..."


It's more than an IOU, it's money that is paid to seasonal and migrant workers with the understanding that their labor benefits the US economy and the agribusiness and meat-processing industries immensely. This understanding is why a US-Mexico wall has never been built and why the border is left deliberately porous.

Illegal immigration is nothing more than a political sound bite, since any politician with half a brain knows how much US industry relies on it. And not all the money they make is sent home, of course. Much of what they make they spend locally, which has significant benefits for the US economy.

In fact, according to the USC, the 2.6 million illegal immigrants living in California add $130 billion a year to the state's economy, which works out to 18% of the states' total GDP. Immigrants in general generate one-third of the state's GDP through their labor, but illegals account for more than half of that.

http://www.caimmigrant.org/research-a...

And then there's the Department of Labor reports that of the 2.5 million farm workers in the U.S., over half (53 percent) are illegal immigrants. The Congressional Budget Office also claims illegals generate $12 billion annually in local and state tax revenue and have added more than $300 billion to the Social Security Trust Fund.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blo...
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2...

And the overall economic benefit of illegal immigration accounts for approx. 3% of private-sector GDP annually, which works out to about $5 trillion over the past 10 years. All of this exceeds the cost of having these 11 million people in the US. And Mexico is hardly the only country that stands to lose if they are all deported or the wall is built.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w22834
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa...


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Matthew wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doing what they want with it, including sending it home. "

J..."


Excellent data. I would add to this the fact that many of these workers are horribly exploited on top of beimg villified.


message 21: by Matthew (last edited Jan 27, 2017 10:53AM) (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doing what they want with it, including sendi..."

Oh hell yes! As far as farm laborers, meat-packers, and domestic servants go, their labor is sought out because they will work for less, won't ask questions, and can be threatened into silence. But as always, people like to blame the exploitees, not the exploiters.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Matthew wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doing what they wan..."

This. And the fraud/extortion perpetrated on them by check cashing storefronts and money wiring services.


message 23: by Matthew (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doi..."

Really? Not surprised at all. Phone cards and pyramids schemes are another. Basically, any credit and quick cash scam is sure to target illegals, believing them to be desperate enough to scam (or that they'll be easier to trick).


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Matthew wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not righ..."

Oh indeed. In Charlotte, NC there was an investigation that revealed check cashing places stealing money from non-English speaking customers. Cashing a check for $900 and giving the confused worker $600, for instance - not counting the ridiculously high "rates and fees"


message 25: by Michael (new)

Michael Fattorosi | 477 comments Matthew wrote: "And the overall economic benefit of illegal immigration accounts for approx. 3% of private-sector GDP annually, which works out to about $5 trillion over the past 10 years. All of this exceeds the cost of having these 11 million people in the US. And Mexico is hardly the only country that stands to lose if they are all deported or the wall is built. "

Your argument is premised on the fact that if those 11 million illegal aliens were not here the void created by their expulsion would not be filled quickly. It would most certainly be.

And Im not blaming the exploitees, Im blaming the exploiters. Which by your residence in Canada doesnt even include you but I digress. The exploiters are the average American consumers who are not willing to pay more. We exploit the Mexicans because we want and believe we are entitled to lower priced everything. They supply cheap goods and services and we lap it up.

Without that Americans would adjust.


message 26: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan Matthew wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doing what they want with it, including sending it home. "

J..."


Hi Matthew, your comment begs the question as to why there isn't a legal "immigration" system to facillitate the participation of Mexican labour in the US economy given the size of the impact of that labour.

The cynic in me would suggest that the primary reason that the illegality of the immigration has never been resolved is because illegal immigrants are easily exploited, and that powerful vested interests wish to keep the status quo.


message 27: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan I suspect that when Michael referred to money as an IOU (#15) he may have been referring to money as a debt instrument, which it literally is.

Michael would be able to confirm.


message 28: by Bernard (new)

Bernard Boley (bernard_boley) | 126 comments Philip wrote: "We have a whole channel and still we have illegal entry and I don't mean through the channel tunnel.
Vehicles, planes, ships, boats probably even swimmers. If people are desperate they will find aw..."


I was about the say the same thing.

Out of 2000 miles of the mexican-american frontier, there's already some 600 miles of walls and americans have already been paying for it. In the Texas 200 mile Big Bend area, it will cost a fortune to build a wall there. Then you have the Texan owners on the frontier who refuse to sell the Feds the right to cross their land. The feds haven't won yet in court.

Take lokk here to better understand some of the problems:

5 reasons Trump’s border wall will be nowhere near as easy to build as he makes it sound

Mexicans don't need visas no more to enter Canada. So guess who's gonna go north before going south.

There's a couple of things Trump probably forgot. Mexico can also charge a 20% importation taxe on the american goods entering the USA and could easily find suppliers from other countries to minimize the price increase it would experiment and offer them excellent importation opportunities.


message 29: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Mexican President says they are going build a tunnel. Which way is the world heading?


message 30: by Bernard (new)

Bernard Boley (bernard_boley) | 126 comments Mehreen wrote: "Mexican President says they are going build a tunnel. Which way is the world heading?"

Who knows! MAybe someone should come up soon instead with a Babel Tower project. Reaching up seems better than laying down, don't you yhink? LOL


message 31: by Mehreen (last edited Jan 27, 2017 10:50PM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Bernard wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Mexican President says they are going build a tunnel. Which way is the world heading?"

Who knows! MAybe someone should come up soon instead with a Babel Tower project. Reaching up ..."


Yes of course. Reaching up is easier but when push comes to shove anything is possible. Trump already has one big tower of Babel, I guess, his twitters.


Olivia "So many books--so little time."" | 1 comments It's not only Mexicans who enter the US via the Mexican border, it's also people from Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras fleeing violence in their homelands. The problem of undocumented immigration can be solved or at least lessened by making legal immigration into the US easier. And by the way people who cross the Mexican border aren't the only undocumented immigrants the US has to deal with, but also people who may be legal when entering the US by plane, ship, etc., but overstay their visas. I think Trump's plan to build a wall is a dumb idea, but if he were really paranoid about undocumented immigration he should build a dome.


message 33: by Jimmy (new)

Jimmy A few random points which may or may not have been covered:

Mexico is our ally. Russia is not.

A stable Mexico on our border is extremely important to our national security.

Many of the immigrants are fleeing from Central America and crossing through Mexico. Helping those nations stabilize is also critical.

I remember once when a judge prevented the immigration department from making a sweep of a Swift slaughterhouse because it would be catastrophic for the meat industry. Illegal immigrants were doing the jobs no one wanted.

Companies like Swift know what they are doing when they hire.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Graeme Rodaughan wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doing what they want with it, including sendi..."

Yes. They would have to advocate for the laborers if they systemically acknowledged their contribution to the economy and we all know justice cuts into profit. Like my father-in-law says, it's classic (view spoiler)


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Michael wrote: "Matthew wrote: "And the overall economic benefit of illegal immigration accounts for approx. 3% of private-sector GDP annually, which works out to about $5 trillion over the past 10 years. All of t..."

Even if the labor void were filled the economic contribution and therefore impact would be diminished because they would have less money to put into local economies. I don't think this is bad, however, because taxation gives you protection, but the amount of disposable income certainly shrinks. And because these are low wage jobs the entitlement benefits would not decrease but rather increase tremendously.


message 36: by Michael (last edited Jan 27, 2017 05:26PM) (new)

Michael Fattorosi | 477 comments Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Even if the labor void were filled the economic contribution and therefore impact would be diminished because they would have less money to put into local economies. I don't think this is bad, however, because taxation gives you protection, but the amount of disposable income certainly shrinks. And because these are low wage jobs the entitlement benefits would not decrease but rather increase tremendously.
"


Im confused. Im not sure what you mean.

If illegal aliens were replaced by American workers and wages were raised how would this hurt anything but consumer prices. Wouldnt that improve the lives of many Americans especially in the local communities ?

Graeme Rodaughan wrote: "I suspect that when Michael referred to money as an IOU (#15) he may have been referring to money as a debt instrument, which it literally is.

Michael would be able to confirm."


Yes, money isnt money, its a debt instrument. It stopped being money when we went off the gold and silver standard. You dont own your own money you merely use the Federal Reserves IOUs... in $1, $5, $10, $20, $50 and $100 increments.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Even if the labor void were filled the economic contribution and therefore impact would be diminished because they would have less money to put into local economies. I don..."

It would be good for both immigrant and community as far as quality of life/ethics but there would not be more money in circulation.


message 38: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan Michael wrote: "Yes, money isnt money, its a debt instrument. It stopped being money when we went off the gold and silver standard. You dont own your own money you merely use the Federal Reserves IOUs... in $1, $5, $10, $20, $50 and $100 increments. ..."

Bingo.


message 39: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan Jimmy wrote: "A few random points which may or may not have been covered:

Mexico is our ally. Russia is not. ..."


We are rapidly moving into a multi-polar world where the USA, China and Russia are the main powers.

The post-cold war unipower model of the US being the remaining and sole super-power is becoming history.

In a three way split - the safe place to be is allied with one of the other two players. The guaranteed losing position is to be the "odd" one out.

Who will it be the US partner of choice? Russia or China?


message 40: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Graeme Rodaughan wrote: "Jimmy wrote: "A few random points which may or may not have been covered:

Mexico is our ally. Russia is not. ..."

We are rapidly moving into a multi-polar world where the USA, China and Russia ar..."


It is unlikely that it would be China given the issues with the South China sea already heating up.


message 41: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14868 comments It may appear that the problem is solved after an hour long phone conversation between Nieto and Trump. Looks a little like blackmail tactics, but it might've worked. Although they agreed to go confidential, we'll soon see what happens on the ground..


message 42: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Nik wrote: "It may appear that the problem is solved after an hour long phone conversation between Nieto and Trump. Looks a little like blackmail tactics, but it might've worked. Although they agreed to go con..."

Remains to be seen.


message 43: by Philip (new)

Philip (phenweb) | 0 comments Just wrote a long fake conversation between the two and then lost the post when my browser went back for no reason.


message 44: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments With the wall, it seems Trump is pursuing a personal vendetta. He should pay for it as he has both means and desire.


message 45: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14868 comments Philip wrote: "Just wrote a long fake conversation between the two and then lost the post when my browser went back for no reason."

-:( That's annoying


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Philip wrote: "Just wrote a long fake conversation between the two and then lost the post when my browser went back for no reason."

Coincidence?? Hmmm...lol.


message 47: by Bernard (new)

Bernard Boley (bernard_boley) | 126 comments Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Philip wrote: "Just wrote a long fake conversation between the two and then lost the post when my browser went back for no reason."

Coincidence?? Hmmm...lol."


No. It's a conspiracy. LOL


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Bernard wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Philip wrote: "Just wrote a long fake conversation between the two and then lost the post when my browser went back for no reason."

Coincidence?? Hmmm...lol."

No. It's a..."


Or he has a nasty computer!


message 49: by Denise (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments I'm not a Trump supporter by any means, but to be fair, he is not the only one who supported a wall.

Obama http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/527/

Hillary Clinton https://youtu.be/AlFi0QUboxs

For Trump to think that Mexico will pay is delusional.


message 50: by Matthew (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) Graeme Rodaughan wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "If those individuals earned those wages with their labor it is not right to prevent them from doing what they want with it, including sendi..."

Well there is, actually. The "guest worker" program has been attempted, but it has failed due to political opposition and the inability of any government to agree on implementation.


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