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World & Current Events > FREE vs PAY Education: College

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message 1: by GR (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments I had both types of college education. But this was back in the 1950s when education was free for public colleges, and affordable for private institutions. My education at a private school cost $300/semester. With the cost of education today, I can't see the purpose of education. There are better ways to get knowledge than through a conventional system. I taught in a college that was public and later became private. I saw what was happening to the private education system I didn't like. Private education became a business rather than an educational system. I would to know your opinions.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments I think the quality of education at public colleges is better but the experience/pastoral care is much better at private colleges.


message 3: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13764 comments Even before college - there are countries where public schools, I hear, are inadequate.. Education is usually a huge number on many state budgets and having it of low standard sounds like a big waste..

Returning to college: Yeah, education has become commerce..
And it looks like you can 'buy' education: as long as you pay, some colleges will make sure you get a degree notwithstanding academic achievements...
The big hurdle lies afterwards - for reputable/top colleges almost guarantee to their graduates 100K + job offers, while some other graduates have hardships to pass state examinations, where a profession requires those..


message 4: by GR (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments This one reason, Nik, I think intelligent people don't need to go to college today. All the knowledge of the world is available on the internet--tons of it--that is if you want knowledge. Skills are a different thing. What matters is, can a person use that knowledge and apply it? But today it is important to have a degree, even a degree has its limits depending on school. Also, there are other hurdles that stop one from getting a job-- cronyism. I've known people who wouldn't hire anyone who didn't go to the same school as he. A degree doesn't prove anything. I've heard employers say: what you learned in school means nothing--I'll teach you everything about your job that is required. With that attitude, why does anybody need a degree.

This is my thoughts on education:

Primary education should be heavy on the 3-Rs (writing, reading, arithmetic). If you can't pass, you stay behind. Secondary education should be on skills building--trades and crafts. Tertiary education should be on applying secondary education skills--apprenticeships.

Academia and knowledge is a whole different ball game. Those who are academic should be weeded out of the primary school system and placed in special schools for the talented, and prepare them for university.

The arts: music, art, literature should have special schools for this talent.

Those who want a college education should come from the Primary, secondary, and tertiary school system. There they can expand their knowledge on their skills. Same with the arts. Same with medicine. Same with applied arts, knowledge, etc. There should be institutions for these skills and offer degrees.

And above all, once upon graduation, a job is guaranteed. Without a job, the purpose of education has failed.


message 5: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13764 comments GR wrote: "This one reason, Nik, I think intelligent people don't need to go to college today. All the knowledge of the world is available on the internet--tons of it--that is if you want knowledge. Skills ar..."

That's why you have distant learning and modifications, so you don't 'go'..
I think what you offer make sense..
A degree is just a certain threshold. Recruiting is far from ideal, but that's how it is.
Jan Koum was looking for a job in Facebook, but rejected only to create WatsApp, which Face bought for 16 billions few years later -:)
Some actors complain about auditions that some great actor fail to impress in auditions. Maybe, but that's the system.
With authors too. I'm not sure Lev Tolstoy's book would pass the 'query letter and first chapter' test today -:)

With all the studies, kids still need and want to enjoy their childhood. Not sure geniuses would want to separate from other kids to move into 'all-genius' classes. Some balanced approach would be desirable, but certainly it'll be good to foster and encourage evident talents and abilities..


message 6: by Michael (new)

Michael Fattorosi | 477 comments $300 a semester ! Wow. I paid $300 a unit.

I would never send my son or daughter to a public school though. I'd give them a library card instead. Everything you can learn in a public school is in a public library.

The benefit of a private university isnt the quality of education, it is the people whom you get to network with. I went to undergrad in DC and I was hanging out on Capitol Hill. My friends were the sons and daughters of politicians and ambassadors. I grew up poor in NJ so it was a huge new world for me.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments GR wrote: "This one reason, Nik, I think intelligent people don't need to go to college today. All the knowledge of the world is available on the internet--tons of it--that is if you want knowledge. Skills ar..."

There is no knowledge on the internet, only information.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Michael wrote: "$300 a semester ! Wow. I paid $300 a unit.

I would never send my son or daughter to a public school though. I'd give them a library card instead. Everything you can learn in a public school is in..."


Although my family has always done parochial school I really like homeschoolers.


message 9: by Michael (new)

Michael Fattorosi | 477 comments I was talking about public or private college/university.

I couldnt do homeschool either. Children are already around their parents' views and opinions a lot. A parent/teacher is going to teach that child what he/she thinks that child needs to know based on their own biases. Too narrow of a world view.

Teachers are a window into new opportunities and experiences in life. I can remember almost all my teachers since I began school 42 yrs ago, and they have shaped my background and personality such as much as my parents.

Without that influence I cannot say who I would be.


message 10: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 13764 comments Don't know whether it's free vs paid, but still some food for thought.
We have a few state unis with steep entrance criteria and where the education is paid but it's roughly 2-3 times cheaper than colleges, where entrance requirements are lower.
Easy (relatively) to get into college, but costs one much more.
Recent and previous data from Bar Exams constantly reflect that uni graduates have much better chances to pass than those from colleges.
For example, 70% failed last bar exam. From uni graduates passed between (53 to 73% depending on the uni), while most colleges had lower success rates, some as low as 16 and 17%!
So one paid more all those years, obtained an academic degree, but is barred from the Bar -:(

What can be a possible conclusion? Maybe that commerce cuts some corners sometimes -:)


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Michael wrote: "I was talking about public or private college/university.

I couldnt do homeschool either. Children are already around their parents' views and opinions a lot. A parent/teacher is going to teach t..."


Not all parents should homeschool but many are absolutely cut out for it. It can be a richly rewarding experience for the child. It's also a myth that homeschooled children aren't exposed to challenging ideas. Besides, when they go to college they are exposed to whole worlds of new ideas and perspectives.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Nik wrote: "Don't know whether it's free vs paid, but still some food for thought.
We have a few state unis with steep entrance criteria and where the education is paid but it's roughly 2-3 times cheaper than ..."


This makes sense according to my experience.


message 13: by Michael (last edited Jan 27, 2017 10:57AM) (new)

Michael Fattorosi | 477 comments Tara Woods Turner wrote: "It can be a richly rewarding experience for the child. It's also a myth that homeschooled children aren't exposed to challenging ideas. Besides, when they go to college they are exposed to whole worlds of new ideas and perspectives. "

I just dont see how thats possible. Its not ideas that I am speaking of, its a diversity of people they do not get to experience at home. Staying home and being homeschooled limits a child's interaction with other child and other adults. It limits them from playing organized sports, it limits them from negotiating through issues like bullying, hazing, group interactions, socialization, embarrassment - a host of issues that come with being a member of community and having certain roles in that community, finding and fighting for your place in that community.

Im a lawyer today because all through school - even elementary school, I would stand up to my teachers and defend students I though were being treated unfairly. I got punished for it but I learned how to argue/debate with authority figures very early. And from that I learned I wanted to do that for a living.

From playing football in high school, I learned what was to lead a team a people to reach a collective goal. How to embrace them when they needed it, how to motivate them when needed and how to console them when we lost. All important lessons that came into play when I ran several companies through-out my life.

There is so much I would have lost out on being home schooled.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "It can be a richly rewarding experience for the child. It's also a myth that homeschooled children aren't exposed to challenging ideas. Besides, when they go to college th..."

That was your experience and I'm glad it was a positive one. But different kids respond to different stimuli and each child should ideally be in the learning environment best suited to him/her. I also don't think you're up to date on just how innovative, dynamic and inclusive home school associations gave become. The old stereotypes of geeky, poorly socialized, maladapted kids hanging on to their mothers' apron strings needs to die. Homeschooled kids play sports, go to prom, go on field trips etc etc.

But let's not go on as if there aren't glaring disadvantages to public school. Learning to run with a pack in order to protect yourself even when you don't agree with the group. Having to defend yourself against the cruelty of students. Having to devend yourself against the cruelty and/or apathy of underpaid and overworked teachers, being forced to learn at a pace too fast ir too slow for you. I could go on and on. And let's not go down the road of resilience - every important child psychologist in the padt 60+ years has stated unequivocally that decreasing stressors for children under the age of 16 is far better for their peychological/cognitive/emotional outcomes than merely showing them how to swim in the deep end. Negative theory isn't as effective as reinforcement theory. In other words a child learns not to bully by being given situations in which to see the benefits of kindness/empathy - not by surviving it. It's science.


message 15: by Michael (new)

Michael Fattorosi | 477 comments Well I have to admit you make great arguments that I cannot refute. Nor will I. I tend to think differently though.

I tend to fear that this emphasis on the psychological / emotional welling being of every student is what has led to the "snowflake generation" that we now have in the US.

Participation trophies have done nothing to prepare them for the realities of the world. That is clear from the reaction after this last election.


message 16: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 9744 comments I think the problem is that University degrees have achieved a "status" that is not entirely deserved. For some careers a degree is most certainly required, at least under our current social system. You don't want to have just anyone doing surgery on you, and in science, unfortunately there are a number of things you have to learn that really cannot be learned without guidance by most. The problem is not whether the brightest individual could do it; it is how can anyone else be sure they did?

Unfortunately, that has created an industry where too many people take it up, often under financial strain, and end up with nothing that it really suitable for them.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Michael wrote: "Well I have to admit you make great arguments that I cannot refute. Nor will I. I tend to think differently though.

I tend to fear that this emphasis on the psychological / emotional welling bein..."


Ah! We certainly agree that there is a huge problem with snowflake syndrome. But that's not the result of protecting oyr children psychologically nor is it the fault of education. It is the result of poor parenting - 100%. Parents are doing the right thing by seeing to the safety and emotional well-being but they are failing miserably at giving their kids a chance to use that safe space for things that matter such as growing, learning and pushing themselves. So these kids remain safe in a suffocating bubble of ease where nothing that could make them stronger is allowed in. The kids have no intuition, problem solving skills, conflict management or emotional self-governance. Schools have to more or less comply or the Starbucks Mafia will sue them to hell and back because Timmy ate a peanut by mistake or Skyler got a D on her science project.

Most homeschoolers don't operate like that. For example, my sister is a homeschooler and so are most of their friends. One of her friends has class on their farm. Her ten year old can tell you what kind of amoeba can be found in their pond, how many liters of goat's milk per grams of enzyme it takes to make cheese and what properties of colloidal oats fight inflammation and why. But guess what else? He can also tell you what happens when you fall out of a pecan tree after your mom has told you 109 times not to climb the pecan trees in the spring lol!!


message 18: by GR (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments Michael wrote: "$300 a semester ! Wow. I paid $300 a unit.

I would never send my son or daughter to a public school though. I'd give them a library card instead. Everything you can learn in a public school is in..."


An interesting beginnings, wow, all those fascinating people to gather tons of stories from. I went to an art school that was filled with fascinating famous people, present, future and past (Chouinard Art Institute, LA -- now CalArts). Their list of alumni reads like a book of Who's Who.

I think I've mentioned this before. When I was going there, I was on scholarship. I didn't like being pulled out of class to clean up a room for a VIP visit or Dinsey's monthly visit. I was on a working scholarship. I got a job at a restaurant for $50 a week. I got off scholarship because I could pay for my apartment, tuition, and food, and have enough money left over to save. You don't see those days anymore.

When I was teaching, tuition became $300 a unit, and climbing. I just looked up the cost of Otis, where I taught, and tuition cost is $41K. I'm sure that's per year. Not like when I was going to school--$600/yr.

How could anyone pay $41K back. Full tuition living on campus: $62,628 x 4= $250,512, and a student wants to incur this debt? They must be out of their mind.

In order come out even, you'd have to have a job that pays beyond reality. The cost of education today is insane.


message 19: by GR (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "It can be a richly rewarding experience for the child. It's also a myth that homeschooled children aren't exposed to challenging ideas. Besides, when they ..."

This what public schools have become. My son pulled his 2 daughters out because of this. They are now homeschooled. Not good for broadening their mind, but better than gangs.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments GR wrote: "Michael wrote: "$300 a semester ! Wow. I paid $300 a unit.

I would never send my son or daughter to a public school though. I'd give them a library card instead. Everything you can learn in a pub..."


You didn't take grants an scholarships into consideration, which don't have to be paid back. Still, college is extremely expensive. I went to a small private college in NC but could never have afforded it on my own. My godfather's father helped finance the school's renovations decades before and my godfather built the football stadium and was a trustee, so yeah. Otherwise I couldn't even afford to walk past the school lol. But just because something is expensive doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

I advocate going to community college for two years first. That way you are paying a low tuition rate, you have a chance to find out what you really want to do and you can get your GPA up and qualify for academic and civic scholarships that will offset the cost of four year college when/if you transfer. Voila - minimal student debt!


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments GR wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tara Woods Turner wrote: "It can be a richly rewarding experience for the child. It's also a myth that homeschooled children aren't exposed to challenging ..."

Of course homeschooling can broaden the mind. If the parent is committed to the ourcome it is much easier to accomplish.


message 22: by Jen Pattison (last edited Jan 29, 2017 05:08AM) (new)

Jen Pattison | 409 comments Can we just clarify what we all mean here, US or European college? In Britain, a college usually means two things; either where you go at 16+ to learn things like hairdressing, catering, car mechanics etc., or one of the units of a collegiate university like Oxford or Cambridge. The 16-18 year old one (a further education college) is the one that is mostly understood by Brits.

I believe that 'college' in the US (and Canada?) is understood to mean 'university'.


message 23: by Roughseasinthemed (last edited Jan 29, 2017 05:43AM) (new)

Roughseasinthemed | 129 comments Jen Pattison wrote: "Can we just clarify what we all mean here, US or European college? In Britain, a college usually means two things; either where you go at 16+ to learn things like hairdressing, catering, car mechan..."

American education?

Don't they go to school, from which they graduate (?), then they go to college or school again (?) which may or may not mean university.

The UK used to have non-degree colleges of dance, drama, education etc which I'm sure you remember. Now everything is degree orientated and university. Next up: a degree for your newspaper round …


message 24: by Jen Pattison (new)

Jen Pattison | 409 comments Roughseasinthemed wrote: "The UK used to have non-degree colleges of dance, drama, education etc which I'm sure you remember. Now everything is degree orientated and university. Next up: a degree for your newspaper round …"

Yes there were colleges of dance and drama, but these were few; now you can do degrees in dance and drama in many universities. I think that people generally thought of 'college' as Colleges of Further Education, where you would learn a trade but now it's mostly hair and beauty and sports science.

I'm sure that a degree in News Delivery Logistics is on the cards...

I was looking at jobs the other day and thought, "What's a Hygiene Operative?" They were advertising for a cleaner!


Roughseasinthemed | 129 comments Jen Pattison wrote: "Roughseasinthemed wrote: "The UK used to have non-degree colleges of dance, drama, education etc which I'm sure you remember. Now everything is degree orientated and university. Next up: a degree f..."

Yup CFEs, spot on, we had one for dance and drama near us which is why I'm vaguely up on that history. Think it did PE as well.

HOs have been around for a while. I saw an ad the other day asking for cleaners and wanting a cv. For cleaning? Huh? Methinks we overdo paperwork sometimes. Give someone a start, if they don't work out, then that's it. Gone.

I know cleaners working for £7 an hour and some working for £10 an hour. Probably one is no better than the other.

But back on topic, I do think the educational system – in the uk – has deteriorated. For lots of reasons and in lots of ways. But I don't know if this thread is only discussing US ed.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Roughseasinthemed wrote: "Jen Pattison wrote: "Roughseasinthemed wrote: "The UK used to have non-degree colleges of dance, drama, education etc which I'm sure you remember. Now everything is degree orientated and university..."

Noy just US - ed anywhere. I believe the OP lives in Germany.


message 27: by GR (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments Tara Woods Turner wrote: "GR wrote: "Michael wrote: "$300 a semester ! Wow. I paid $300 a unit.

I would never send my son or daughter to a public school though. I'd give them a library card instead. Everything you can lea..."


Tara, I don't remember grants at that time (1950s), just scholarships. They may have had grants, but I wasn't aware of them. Education at that time was fairly cheap, and public education, JC, Colleges, and Universities was free. And, I believe the nation profited better from it too. High cost of education has made the our nation suffer. Most of our Brains come from outside the nation, mainly the East. And that is sad. That makes me wonder if the US has any Brains. And if the US does have Brains, where are they?


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