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Intersectional Feminism > Donald Trump Signs Anti-Abortion Executive Order Surrounded By Men

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message 1: by Kressel (new)

Kressel Housman | 436 comments The worst part about this is that it affects women in the developing world, and we read about their health crisis in Half the Sky months ago.


message 2: by Michael (new)

Michael (michjarv98) | 7 comments I am sickened by the people who say that we shouldn't kill Zygotes. If we did this, we'd have to stop killing off diseases. More to the point, women should have the right to choose what they want to do with their bodies because men are freely able to do the same thing without a law being passed.


message 3: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments Also the fact this legislature is used as a political football is telling the democrats sign it in, Republicans revoke it. Time to stop treating women's issues as somehow of secondary importance and suitable only for games.

Should be noted that these presidential orders are not written immediately into law far from it. However with a republican house and senate this probably will get through.


message 4: by Robin (last edited Jan 24, 2017 01:29AM) (new)

Robin (z_rob) | 128 comments When one thinks about it, it should be interesting to see the proportion of women in the Republican and Democrat membership. I think the number is different. But yeah, let's stop playing games and get into some real action, and real change.


message 5: by Ines (new)

Ines (imaginary_space) To answer your question: Yes, I think you were out of line with your response to that person's comment.
Why do I think so? Because she made her point very clear and did not say one of the things you accused her of. She didn't say "eradicate all men", she didn't say all men are responsible, she didn't say men are the only reason. What you did was ignoring her point by turning the discussion away from the actual topic and into a discussion about discussion. I totally understand why she cut you off, because it happens very often when women try to discuss issues like that and frankly, it's tiring and beside the point. I suppose you didn't need to be told she didn't mean "eradicate all men", you knew that already or you could have easily guessed it, given that she never wrote it.
So why make an accusation, correct a statement she never made, thereby invalidating her argument and derailing the discussion by trying to make her defend herself rather than arguing about the topic at hand?


message 6: by Astrid (new)

Astrid | 215 comments Ines wrote: "To answer your question: Yes, I think you were out of line with your response to that person's comment.
Why do I think so? Because she made her point very clear and did not say one of the things y..."


I hate when bits of a discussion is deleted... Now I feel completely out of the loop :)

On another note, I honestly can't believe that in 2017 these laws are still being discussed. A woman's right to decide what happens to her own body should be a given.


message 7: by Ines (new)

Ines (imaginary_space) I hate when bits of a discussion is deleted... Now I feel completely out of the loop :)

Oh, right... it's not there anymore. Well, now I took all that time to write a clear response (and English is not my first language, so that probably took me longer than it would have a native speaker) and Ryan deleted the topic he actually wanted to discuss out of his first post. Not really satisfying to partake in a discussion like that.

To give you some context: He had postet a short conversation he had had with another person in the comments section of the article and originally asked our opinion about that.


message 8: by Prpages (new)

Prpages @Ines
I agree with you. I kept trying to write a response to it yesterday but couldn't find the right words at the time. One thing that sort of really bothered me about the response was that it seemed to sort of invalidate her anger. Anger that is completely justifiable. It's as you said, unfortunately pretty common and really frustrating.

On another note, I'm really upset about this. None of the aid actually ever went to funding abortions, and taking away aid, used to fund health clinics for women will kill women. None of the men in that room will ever be impacted by the bill. Beyond infuriating and really upsetting both for the women in developing nations this will impact, as well as what it might mean for women's reproductive rights and healthcare in the US.


message 9: by Ashley Marie (last edited Jan 25, 2017 07:25AM) (new)

Ashley Marie Seeing that photo, let alone reading the article, absolutely disgusted me.


message 10: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1091 comments Mod
Yeah, it's not going to be a pretty picture.

When people begin talking about how Trump is not pro-life or pro-choice make sure to reference this action! We know that we have a hard enough job with a GOP controlled Congress, but do not let others forget or misunderstand that this is exactly why most pro-choice marched on Jan. 21 and were upset.

That said. MAKE SOME NOISE!

Contact your representatives and make sure they know why it's not kosher for those in developing nations to be devoid of reproductive health, but in the United States that will not be tolerated, Tell your representatives that we need to protect Roe v Wade even more and that we will not go back. Site Half the Sky. Site your experiences, just get out and start telling them.

Make it a standing tradition to call your Representatives (both state and federal) once (or more) a week!


message 11: by Sara (new)

Sara Goldenberg | 2 comments I don't like this at all.

Abortion is not the best form of birth control, nor something I'd ideally consider for myself or my daughter, but that doesn't mean no one should have it as an option, especially in the case of rape or incest.


message 12: by Robin (new)

Robin (z_rob) | 128 comments I agree @Sara. This is not something insignificant but is SHOULD be an option. And it's still a bad idea to do this. Anyway we all know that the current president of the US is not a progressivist at all.


message 13: by Prpages (new)

Prpages Pam wrote: "Yeah, it's not going to be a pretty picture.

When people begin talking about how Trump is not pro-life or pro-choice make sure to reference this action! We know that we have a hard enough job wit..."


To add onto this a little bit for those in the US here: https://5calls.org/
Is a website where you can put in your location and they'll give you scripts as well as what issues you should be calling about and who to be calling.


message 14: by Munira (new)

Munira | 1 comments I was appalled when i read this. I can't believe that in 2017 people believe that women shouldn't have the rights to do what they want with their own bodies. All women should have this option and no-one should be allowed to take this right away.


message 15: by Tess (new)

Tess | 2 comments I am Dutch and I really want to let everyone know about this initiative, which comes from the Netherlands but is meant for everyone in the world. It is an attempt to come together and compensate for the rights and freedoms that the US is now taking away from women all over the world, and I think it's awesome:

http://www.shedecides.eu/


message 16: by Janet (new)

Janet (httpwwwgoodreadscomjanet_benton) | 1 comments Tess wrote: "I am Dutch and I really want to let everyone know about this initiative, which comes from the Netherlands but is meant for everyone in the world. It is an attempt to come together and compensate fo..." TESS, I was so thrilled to learn about this. Yay Netherlands!


message 17: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments Impressive Tess, nice to see some nations keeping focus where it needs to be.


message 18: by Sara (new)

Sara (marseira) | 1 comments "With the Muslim ban, Trump has shown that the worst fears about his Presidency are true. Add your voice to the open letter below to join the resistance — then spread it far and wide:

---

Dear Mr. Trump,

This is not what greatness looks like.

The world rejects your fear, hate-mongering, and bigotry. We reject your support for torture, your calls for murdering civilians, and your general encouragement of violence. We reject your denigration of women, Muslims, Mexicans, and millions of others who don’t look like you, talk like you, or pray to the same god as you.

Facing your fear we choose compassion. Hearing your despair we choose hope. Seeing your ignorance we choose understanding.

As citizens of the world, we stand united against your brand of division."

Sign the Global Open Letter to Donald Trump: https://secure.avaaz.org/campaign/en/...


message 19: by Tom (last edited Jan 30, 2017 03:20PM) (new)

Tom | 19 comments Michael wrote: "I am sickened by the people who say that we shouldn't kill Zygotes...."

especially since it's believed a fairly large percentage of pregnancies end in miscarriage naturally anyway (often times early enough that the woman doesn't even realize she's pregnant, iirc). So it's OK for your body to do it, but not a doctor. Hooray for arbitrary lines in the sand!


message 20: by Astrid (last edited Jan 31, 2017 02:13AM) (new)

Astrid | 215 comments Tess wrote: "I am Dutch and I really want to let everyone know about this initiative, which comes from the Netherlands but is meant for everyone in the world. It is an attempt to come together and compensate fo..."

Between this initiative and the hilarous video (watch it - seriously) the Netherlands are champions right now.


message 21: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments ah excellent Astrid The Dutch are leading the charge


message 22: by Roger (new)

Roger Burt | 26 comments I'm just sickened. This affects women's health, will mean more not less pregnancies and more illegal abortions which affects women's health. The death rate for women will climb. The crime originates with these men.


message 23: by Kressel (new)

Kressel Housman | 436 comments Astrid wrote: "Between this initiative and the hilarous video (watch it - seriously) the Netherlands are champions right now."

What's that blackface thing all about?


message 24: by Amanda (new)

Amanda Miller (rosethorn7) | 123 comments I am American and I am sickened about everything that is happening.


message 25: by Sandra (new)

Sandra | 273 comments ditto


message 26: by Odette (new)

Odette | 14 comments Kressel wrote: "Astrid wrote: "Between this initiative and the hilarous video (watch it - seriously) the Netherlands are champions right now."

What's that blackface thing all about?"


It's connected to this Dutch holiday tradition for children. Black Pete is the helper of Sinterklaas, like the elves are for Santa Claus, though just extremely racist. The opinion on and image of Black Pete is making a change, with a lot of people thinking that Black Pete's image should change into something less racially stereotyped.
When we made the international headlines a couple of years ago, we all felt attacked in our traditions (Hoping not to sound like I'm trying to make an excuse for this, but I think the majority of the Dutch people didn't understand the international outroar because we (caucascian) people, didn't see black Pete like that. We have a bit of a different history with slavery than the U.S. Still not trying to give this as an excuse, I rather blame the history courses and books in schools who I think are sorely lacking on certain things, slavery, the dutch involvement in it and societal repercussions of it being among them). A lot of people made the excuse that he was black because of the soot of the chimney and not because of a racial stereotype of slavery. I have to say myself that I didn't see black petes in that way when I was a kid. I think that this is the innocence of children. But I understand as well the people who do feel marginalized and want it to change.
I'm of the opinion that Black Pete should change with the times and when someone goes to the chimney and gets covered in soot, it's fine too to have just a few black/dark marks and smudges. Or the initiative as done by some cities etc: rainbow petes. I thought it was a bit of a lame excuse to say that he's black due to soot and then also give him red lips, curly wig, golden earring(s) etc.

So I"m happy to say that the idea and opinions, though slowly, are changing but sad to say that it's not the government who's taking the lead in this but actually the private sector by supermarkets not showing the 'traditional' black pete and public as well as commercial tv stations changing the images or at least not solely showing blackfaced.

Sorry for the long explanation and hijacking the thread a bit..

To get back to the topic and the article. I'm also disgusted by Trump stopping funding of NGO's even bringing up the possibility of abortion. Even though this has basically been done by every Republican president, as far as I understood, I had hoped that in this day and age, politicians understand the rights of women to decide on their own (reproductive) health. I find it even worse that it is also punishing those activities of these NGO's which are so important but may not be related to abortion whatsoever....

That's why I'm so happy with the She Decides initiative by minister Ploumen. What I find as beautiful is this response by an American citizen and which was posted by the minister on FB: https://www.facebook.com/lilianne.plo...


message 27: by Tess (new)

Tess | 2 comments Odette wrote:

What's that blackface thing all about?"

It's connected to this Dutch holiday tradition..."


Thanks for explaining so well what I didn't know how to explain!

And that is truly a wonderful letter.


message 28: by Sandra (new)

Sandra | 273 comments would this signing have been more palatable if he had been surrounded by women?


message 29: by Mia (new)

Mia | 13 comments i think that if a woman decides to have abortion she will do it even if the law forbids her but she will do it illegaly in some basment and that can lead to diseases but if she firmlly decides to do that nothing will stop her so why don't we just legalize abortion so that women could be safe beacuse they are going to do it no matter what the law says


message 30: by Mia (new)

Mia | 13 comments to add to that previous comment women should be able to do whatever they want with their bodys why does he have to decide it is not his body nor his life


message 31: by Sandra (new)

Sandra | 273 comments Mia wrote: "i think that if a woman decides to have abortion she will do it even if the law forbids her but she will do it illegaly in some basment and that can lead to diseases but if she firmlly decides to d..."
mia, i was around before abortion was first legalized in the u.s., and there were many terribly tragic stories, exactly as you mentioned. those were called 'back alley' abortions, some with horrific results, all because it wasn't legal. you're absolutely right that if a woman wants an abortion, she will find a way to get one. why not keep her safe, indeed!


message 32: by Amanda (new)

Amanda Miller (rosethorn7) | 123 comments This really disgusts me as it shows where the true power lies. How can men know what is best for women? Only a woman does.


message 33: by Holly (new)

Holly (goldikova) Well, at least a couple tablets of misoprostal will still take care of the problem.


message 34: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments it is worth noting that there are men in authority who regard womens productive rights as a matter for them to rule on imagine what few qualms they have for altering any rights currently affored women.


message 35: by Cristina (new)

Cristina Valverde Moreno | 4 comments First of all, sorry for my English, this is my second language and I make a lot of mistakes.

There is no discussion that women we should have the right to decide what to do with our bodies.

Abortion is a delicate issue because it is something that can't be stopped. If a woman wants to abort she will do it, in a way or another (more dangerous). This law approvement only shows that each day we are less protected. Men and women we should have the same rights but a woman gives birth and a man doesn't. I think that's an issue to consider women opinions. Men should not decide on this by their own, they will never feel what having a baby is and the consequences it has for the woman having it!

Men don't get fired for getting pregnant, men don't feel their bodies changing, men don't have to change their diet, they don't have to give up stuff they like to do or need help to get a bus/train, etc.

I just can't understand why this man (and the rest of his tribe) continues to make decisions in matters he doesn't know anything about.


message 36: by Sandra (new)

Sandra | 273 comments just to play 'devil's advocate' here, where does the man belong in the abortion picture who helped create the fetus in the first place? this is his child as well - should he have a say in all this? just putting it out there, interested to see responses.


message 37: by Cristina (new)

Cristina Valverde Moreno | 4 comments Sandra wrote: "just to play 'devil's advocate' here, where does the man belong in the abortion picture who helped create the fetus in the first place? this is his child as well - should he have a say in all this?..."

Hi Sandra, of course, you are very right there and we are not saying that the man doesn't have an opinion. But, in my opinion, the most important voice in the debate over abortion is a woman because the consequences of carrying a baby are hers.


message 38: by Roger (new)

Roger Burt | 26 comments Yes, and as a man I find it infuriating that so many men assume they have the ultimate say on women's lives. And so much of this even goes to the level of impairing women's health care in general.
I want my daughters and granddaughters to have the ultimate say in their lives. I believe in partnership between men and women but not domination. The movement to empower women is at the forefront of movements on our planet at this time.


message 39: by Ellie (new)

Ellie Normally, i would agree 100%, but I am pro-life, for one reason and one reason only: it is not the woman's body anymore, because a living child is inside now, no matter how big it is, it is alive.


message 40: by Colleen (new)

Colleen Back up your "pro-life" world then and abolish war, support poor people and children with social services, end capital punishment, try and improve the quality of everyone's lives, not just the quantity of and make men more responsible. Etc.


message 41: by Cristina (new)

Cristina Valverde Moreno | 4 comments Colleen wrote: "Back up your "pro-life" world then and abolish war, support poor people and children with social services, end capital punishment, try and improve the quality of everyone's lives, not just the quan..."

Isn't that comment a little bit unfair? Because there are worst things it is not right to be "pro-life"? I totally understand her point of view, I don't share it but I understand it


message 42: by Sandra (new)

Sandra | 273 comments possibly a more correct term would be 'anti-abortion'. 'pro-life', altho it has been twisted to mean 'anti-abortion', is, in actuality, a term that considers all life, not just that of the unborn, not just that of humans, for that matter. i believe specificity in language is extremely important.

if one is indeed 'pro-life', one must consider and be passionate about 'life' in general. how many mosquitoes or flies have you killed? sure, maybe this is an extreme example, but i'm using it to make a point.

by the same reasoning, 'pro-choice' refers to the ability of adults to make choices for themselves about anything and everything (in ideal situations). the choices i make for my life may not agree with someone else's choices, but does that mean there is no room for respect, tolerance, or understanding?

i get it that anti-abortionists believe that abortion is murder, the killing of another human being. even those in the medical profession can't agree on when a zygote becomes human. how can we? we all have our own beliefs about it, and that is a choice.

a woman's body is still her body, even when she has the responsibility of carrying the beginnings of another human being. where the line is drawn comes down to a belief, a choice. in an ideal world, everyone would make responsible, healthy, respectful choices. as it is, we do the best we can.


message 43: by [deleted user] (new)

Cristina wrote: "Men don't get fired for getting pregnant, men don't feel their bodies changing, men don't have to change their diet, they don't have to give up stuff they like to do or need help to get a bus/train, etc.

I just can't understand why this man (and the rest of his tribe) continues to make decisions in matters he doesn't know anything about. "


Obs: I want everyone to know that English is my secondary language before reading it all. I'm sorry if none can understand the text or find grammar issues.

I totally agree with you. But according with all you can think about it, i'll try to give answers as:

Such are my older thoughts i used to hold .. but it have changed a bit.. until we understand abortion subject completed. I'll try to write it all and as an reflexive thoughts and texts:

"I used to be against the abort as a contraceptive method. For sure. In part was like.. "We are defending the absurd and irresponsible one on the middle of all options we have to prevent it to happens. Now abort as a contraceptive method??? It sound as madness."

But if we take as we can't change it this much, the irresponsible one.. and he still giving a great damage and consequences to the Women.. The abortion as a contraceptive method is clearly an option. Can be allowed.

"But being "appellative" as - We can't deny the life dynamics.. or that we can't have a perfect life. Which one reasons we could use or defend against this subj? As if "Machado de Assis" have got aborted... and other greater thinkers have got aborted cuz they just have been born poor - or with a family that has no conditions to take care of the Children?"

But under the actual conditions the abortion would and must be allowed for the sake of the Women's healthy and prevent the illegal Surgeries and death as consequences of such surgeys. Also.. If we take that - a bit from the literature - that the Mother can feed a love for the Child such appellative observation would make no sense. The Child will get born anyways. And also not seeing as an bother thing inside a Women as the quote by looking the Child this way.

I think anyone who can help to reach a decision, a clear decision, if abortion must be allowed or not - I take as Intelligence and prudence has no gender (Both Men and Women are both able to have it).

And the most intelligent and correct decision about abort to me was made on the Brazil. I heard that they allowed it as a contraceptive method on the first three months of gestation. (Does such decision have been made on other countries? I would like to someone to give me this information) - I guess so much prudence on the middle of it all they have done this as a temporally decision - or not - by allowing it.


message 44: by Odette (last edited Mar 06, 2017 03:40AM) (new)

Odette | 14 comments Cristina wrote: "Colleen wrote: "Back up your "pro-life" world then and abolish war, support poor people and children with social services, end capital punishment, try and improve the quality of everyone's lives, n..."

I agree with Cristina, it sounds bit unfair to immediately slam someone who claims to be pro-life. As Sandra said, it's a bit confusing if Ellie meant pro-life or anti-abortion. But even so, I think that feminism is an emancipation movement, striving for equality for women. This means that every women should have the same opportunity, the same rights to make her own decisions and formulate her own thoughts and opinions. So if Ellie is pro-life or anti-abortion, she should have the freedom to think and feel so. The same counts for others. I think it's unjust if men (or women) mandate to other women what they can and can't do.

So much is changing to a woman's body if she gets pregnant, it depends on her financial and family situation. And getting an abortion isn't a light decision or easily made. I'm still a student and I would probably decide to get an abortion if I would get pregnant right now. Due to being a student I don't have a regular job yet, I am still living in student housing and my family is either not living close by or still working full-time.

So I find it horrible that a choice is taken away from women. It appears that a guy who impregnates a woman can very easily decide to 'get rid of it' by not being in the picture and not give any financial support.

And people, feminism isn't just black and white. There are so many factors which form us, our minds and our opinions (Intersectional feminism!). So to me the basic principle of feminism is to strive for equality for women (which for me is the freedom for women to do and choose whatever they want to do as men can). How you want to expand that is up to you. So officially, I think you can be anti-abortion in your beliefs, meaning that you would never do it, but still believe in equality for women. If you act upon it by wanting to limit a woman's choice or option (in any way and not just limited to abortion), then I don't think you can call yourself a feminist

I think most of the above makes me agree with Sandra. To have complete equality with men, women should be allowed to make their own decisions and not be limited by it due to us being women. We should respect each other's thoughts and although not agreeing with someone's point of view, respect the right for this person to form his or her own thoughts and opinions


message 45: by JeGargas (new)

JeGargas | 1 comments I agree with you Odette. I think the trouble is when people try to limit choices FOR women. You can be pro-life or pro-choice, but the trouble comes when one side tries to make decisions for the other. Feminism is about the freedom for a woman to choose for herself, so I think that pro-life and pro-choice people can co-exist, as long as they don't try to make choices for the other.


message 46: by Terri (new)

Terri (terrilovescrows) | 10 comments Colleen wrote: "Back up your "pro-life" world then and abolish war, support poor people and children with social services, end capital punishment, try and improve the quality of everyone's lives, not just the quan..."

Provide homes for unwanted children (and I don't mean a foster system for money -- that is broken already


message 47: by Terri (new)

Terri (terrilovescrows) | 10 comments Pro-Choice does not mean women WANT to have abortions, nor does it mean they are lazy or irresponsible. very few women actually use abortion as birth control. Every woman I have known who has had an abortion, has made the decision with lots of thought and emotional upheaval. They base it on the circumstances of their life at the time.


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