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Intersectional Feminism > Is Happiness in Feminism more important than Reality?

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message 1: by Eternal (last edited Jan 21, 2017 06:11PM) (new)

Eternal Student Is Happiness in Feminism more important than Reality?
Yes, that is a real question. Some may not even understand what I mean or why I am saying this...

Briefly said: To me, Happiness is like any other drug. It gives you an awesome high that can last a very long time. And it is addicting. We all desire it constantly. Oh, what triggers our minds to jump from joy? To want to embrace each other? To kiss, to mingle and express our glorious ecstasy called LOVE!

How often does Happiness take the first spot when the world around you is showing you a different reality? When you can't see the ugliness because it would ruin the image of joy, freedom and endless amount of mental ecstasy.

Oh the sanity, the questions about "Why is Feminism not at the front of things?" "Why is Feminism made fun of?" "Why is Feminism seen as a waste of time by many?" "Why is this not working?"

Does this mean to dive into the ice cold reality of despair and hatred? Sigh, that is like a Christian asking how an Atheist or other believers can even understand the essence of love if they don't believe in a loving "God" or the loving sacrifice of its son. Sacrifice! My what great love! Don't you understand? "Sigh, but don't believe in this or that even if it evokes an emotion". Who cares!!! Love matters right?!

Though.... isn't the truth Balancing both the grand the illusion and the magnificent certainty?Take the drug of Love like one does Alcohol on the weekends. Cautiously. Like LOVE one can't see it is influencing ones personal life. "You aren't thinking straight, the reality is not like that!" some want to yell at young couples who are in love gazing into their eyes lost in the blissfulness of traveling imaginations. Then they fight, scratch each other wondering "Where did it all go wrong?" Sigh, what went wrong was the expectation of being happy forever! That is like asking after becoming sober "Where did it all go wrong?" and utterly being lost about the idea that the influence of the bottle was the reasoning behind it all.

What I might be saying is this...

Know when Happiness is influencing your views, thoughts, rationality when running an organization, a business or any sort of group involving more than one individual how do you know that the reason it is failing is to kindle the flame of LOVE without a doubt and for no matter what.

Quick the feeling is fading!!! SMILE! LAUGH! BE POLITE! Make it come back!!! Oh Happiness where have you gone??? I need it!! How do we get happiness? How to keep it longer? Who mixes it best than the ideology of marriage and eternal happiness!!! The neverending drug!! Oh what a lie... but lies don't matter at all... only.... happiness... and love.... matter.... stab me with the dagger of eternal companionship so I don't need to sit in the cold without my daily dose! Oh, how can I live without happiness? That isn't possible!!! Only death and destruction awaits nothing more!! Hell!!! Save me!! Give me another dose!! Still the pain!! Radicate my loniness with the veil of instant satisfication!!!

Am I saying to push Happiness and Love to the side? No! Know how it works and if you do understand it, realize this reflects on to everything including organizations. Why do you think there is such a thing as love-bombing in cults and sects? It is addicting and by the time the members realize something is wrong, they have been absorbed too much into it. A veil has been placed onto their heads and seeing anything other than the oh so beautiful golden veil! Oh, how many have the strength to push away the illusion of warmth, life, and light for a few seconds to unveil the secrets of the world? To see the face of Reality and noticing that one is standing at the edge of the world ready to plunge towards the death caused by true and self-imposed ignorance.

Now.... the process of how things are to move forwards, to be active and change the world utilizing Feminism?

Is Happiness in Feminism more important than Reality?

[I can already see the posts: "Sexualization is a reality!" "Define Reality!" "Marginalization is a Reality!" I am not speaking of those things, I am speaking of how Feminism functions, how it operates and how it is planning to change the world and the tools being used.]

message 2: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments Feminism is about equality I it makes me happy working for it and achieving the goals derived form that. Look at the pictures of Emma at the Washington march we shared her delight at what was happening. Her smile is the answer to the question posed here.

message 3: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments I'm afraid I'm not sure if I could follow your brief explanation.
Therefore question, would I be right to paraphrase your post with:

"Are people flogging to feminism only to make themselves feel better while closing their eyes to harsh realities, or do they have a real plan how to make the world a better place?"

message 4: by Eternal (new)

Eternal Student @Gerd

Are Feminists more concerned about happy feelings or about the realities around them?

Are there some that just come here to get a quick snort of "love" so they feel good about themselves and pretend to be doing something?

Is it more important to see a smile or to understand a principle why they failed?

Is is more important to yell "All we need is Love" and ignore doubt, confusion and true understanding?


I don't know if I can give you a direct answer because the amount of interpretations and 'correct' way of reading are too many.

message 5: by Felicia (new)

Felicia (feliciajoe) I'm not sure I quite understand your question, so let me know if I'm answering something completely different here.

I think feminists are in this for more than the happy feeling. I base this off the fact that talking about feminism often makes me more upset than happy. Being continuously confronted with the long way we have to go before we reach true equality, with the many obstacles I have to make my way past, and with all the hate I will meet on the way, sometimes talking about this makes me lose my good spirit. At the same time, it brings me courage, knowing that I am far from alone in this fight.

So yes, my personal answer would be that feminists definitely see the reality and just fight to change it.

message 6: by Eternal (last edited Jan 23, 2017 05:56AM) (new)

Eternal Student @ Felicia

Respectable answer. Actually I quite appreciate that answer and thank you for taking the time to reply :)

Though maybe I am hinting not at the individuals particularly though the organization, group, club (or whatever other name that might fit to your liking) itself and how it operates.

Lets say there is a general fact understood by everyone [Society] but then you have a group of people who defy and deny all of it. Not only that they bring up their own numbers, facts and news KNOWINGLY they are wrong but are to operate under the idea of "equality for all even if it comes across as racist, sexist, etc." and as such implement to radical ways to 'solve' some solution.

It is as if "We don't see the change we want in 10 years, let us fabricate that change so we can feel better about our surroundings"

Don't get me wrong SOME things that Feminists fight for are logical and are indeed things that need to be focused on (Such as passing laws against sexism, racism etc.) but then you have the majority being, now I am being blunt, of conspiratorial and rather obscene implications.

Were the marches good? (the ones the last few days)

Everyone who is neutral on your affairs and wants to assist with your rational message... can't stop but also see all of the 'ugliness' which is shrouded by happy faces, colors and sugar overdose. The ugliness NOT being the anger, the demand for change. THAT is totally fine!!! People don't mind that!!! What they do mind... Lets just say it is hard to look past certain ideology, ties to communism, wanting change to appear to have caused change, etc. etc. etc.

Some of Feminist Philosophy (I am not talking about the genuine older waves) is so... Ever met a conspiracy theorist? Lets say they claim that there are serpent masters actually ruling the world. Some believe this heartily, bring forth 'facts' and try to convince other that the world is in danger.
"Look around you!!! We need liberty! We need Freedom! We need Equality! Because the serpents are trying to harvest humanities souls!"

Let me say this kindly...

Many think Feminists are bluffing with their data and facts. That is why 94% of women who agree with equality only a few percent actually ARE Feminists.

Am I saying you all are crazy? Nope! I think your attempt is unethical, your views are to fit some mold you all believe you need to follow and I think out of frustration. Yes Frustration, we all think we need to be the change. Though I think delusional and hysterical views are caused because the frustration of not seeing change. Impatience. Which then leads to confusing and odd formations. Which I think is now our today's Feminism. It is dead, murdered by impatience and unstructured implication of that message. Nobody wants to be with you all for a reason. But nope, over 80% of first world societies are wrong, right?

Why do you think a lot of you are ridiculed? Trolled on the internet? Stalked and marked for verbal abuse? Because you are right? Or because you all have a veil on your head not seeing the world like everyone else?

YES, there are people who hate women and don't want them to succeed. There are people who want to hurt, dominate etc. women. And they are the few. Society is telling you this. Not everyone is your target and that is why Feminism had to create a broader target. But let me guess, Society is wrong because the patriarchy is controlling society...

How would you treat a movement that keeps on telling you serpents are coming for you and we need to come together to fight against AIDS? Sure their commitment towards fighting AIDS is good... but...

"It is about the cause not about the group itself"
"It is about fighting for justice not about how it is represented"
"It is about doing what is right no matter how people think it is to be"
"It doesn't matter that something comes across as vulgar or not appropriate if it gets people to 'wake up'"


Are these excuses?

Does some of this make any sense? I am trying to hint at why Feminism is failing... maybe I am wasting my time.

message 7: by Robin (last edited Jan 23, 2017 12:22PM) (new)

Robin (z_rob) | 128 comments Feminism is a source of happinness to me, but not happiness in itself, if thats what you ask.

message 8: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Okay Let me try. @Eternal

Your posing this idea that lots of people believe in equality but don't believe in feminism because they don't want to face the reality that this aren't perfect.
By trying to convert the non supporters, feminists often use inefficient arguments, citing facts and figures that the other party can just ignore, kind of like how a conspiracy theorist would point out "obvious" things and not understand why you don't believe.
Meanwhile, this drives a self-centered culture in Feminist groups, where we keep circlejerking each other about but fail to convince the rest of society that our views are valid.

(Sorry if I didn't get it. If I could offer some constructive criticism on your writing, I would suggest using less capital-first-letter words and less quotations that are meant to emulate conversation. They make it harder to understand.)

If I've defined your argument correctly (which I very well might not have) I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think that we do have problems discussing outside of anyone who shares our views already. I think self-imposed blinders and culture of fighting are main contributors to the disconnect.

First, we're often blind to the legitimacy of other people's arguments. While some groups will declare there is a "war on men" from women's groups, we're prone to not recognize that they have a legitimate concern. Women are making huge advancements and are building a self confident and supportive culture. But some men DON'T have self confidence/support groups themselves. And the disconnect/blinder to the other groups issues causes a lot of friction.

Second, we love fighting. You're wrong, I'm right, end of story. You'd have to be an idiot to believe anything else,
But in reality, things are complicated and nuanced. Picking sides and fighting rarely solves the problem. But rather than trying to make positive but difficult strides toward progress, most would rather just fight harder for something easier to believe in.
Example: gender wage gap is real, but simply raising women's wages won't solve the underlying problem of career choices/educational choices, female individuals asking for raises, differences in assumed risk in certain jobs.
But rather than talk about how to fix those problems, simply demanding "Where's my 22 cents?" just stops all sense of having a good conversation.

Anyway I hope I read your posts correctly. Let me know if I missed anything and what you think about my argument. Cheers!

message 9: by James (new)

James Corprew Winston wrote: "Okay Let me try. @Eternal

Your posing this idea that lots of people believe in equality but don't believe in feminism because they don't want to face the reality that this aren't perfect.
By tryi..."

Great post Winston, you make a lot of interesting and constructive points.

message 10: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Well, ties to communism are not bad per se, communism is a good idea - not workable, but at it's core a good idea.

If I get you right you see feminists as adopting the credo of Rudi Dutschke, which roughly went:
"Fight the system, only because it is the system."
A fight for fight sake (which ultimately led to RAF terrorism).

"Many think Feminists are bluffing with their data and facts. That is why 94% of women who agree with equality only a few percent actually ARE Feminists."

Ahm, pot calling kettle there. :D
You should never simply suck some numbers out of your fingers if you try to accuse anybody of... well just sucking numbers from his fingers. :)

Feminists are not a single united movement, they differ, they follow different goals, different ideas and ideals. Trying to lump them together simply doesn't work - and _that_ really may be the problem some people have with it, other than religion it's not something you can take up (out of the box so to say) but needs actual work on your behalf, interest, you have to invest time to find out who is fighting for what.

Yes there are streams in feminism that seem to belief in "The Patriarchy" as others do in "The Illuminati", yes there are those feminists that are only a hairsbreadth away from hating men, if at all that much.
But in that they differ no iota from any other large group.

message 11: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments @James Thanks! Appreciate the compliment!

message 12: by Noor (new)

Noor Amgad (nooramgad) | 16 comments Well in my point of view, reality gets me a little pessimistic. Harsh reality. In reality, you see what really is happening. Dirty truths. Happiness for me is the complete opposite. It is a source where I can be optimistic. As I like writing, I need to achieve a level of happiness. So feminism, also in my perspective, is a combination of both harsh reality and happiness. Where you need to see what REALLY is happening which is disappointing, but in the same time to stand for these things you need to achieve that level of happiness.

message 13: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
I think, the more you ponder about the world and mankind and things that are wrong and need to be repaired, the more you risk your happiness.

...However, for those of us with a certain personality, that's just the way it is. :) Feminism is just one of the things that are in my mind, which never seems to stay silent, for good and for bad as well. Sometimes I like it. Sometimes I wish I could make my mind shut up, just for a little while.

message 14: by Robin (new)

Robin (z_rob) | 128 comments Ana wrote: "I think, the more you ponder about the world and mankind and things that are wrong and need to be repaired, the more you risk your happiness.

...However, for those of us with a certain personality..."

That's very true, that's why one has to find a middle way between pondering about the world and get happy:)

message 15: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Ya'll are so negative about the world. Like we've got a bunch of problems but in nearly every category, we're much better off as a whole than any time in history. I would argue, that for particularly white women, I don't think there has been a better time. And I would hesitantly argue that in very modern history, women today have it better than previous generations.

Remember that history is so long that we're not very good at comprehending it. Egypt started some 5000 years ago but humans as a species have existed 100,000 year before that and we've always had societies and culture and art, even if we didn't have formal means of recording. Ideas like equality and freedom are new, so new that you can't considered them ordinary or natural.

That shouldn't be cause for despair but for hope. We weren't all born equal, and no one is telling us we have to be. It is the collective choice of the vast majority of humans who have the empathy and caring to stand up and say "You're human just like me and we ought to be treated equally."

And if that isn't the most goddamn beautiful thing humankind has ever done, I don't know what is. (Close tie with Harry Potter, I love that shit.)

We've got a long way to go, but be immensely proud of how far we've come. And look around. It's not perfect, we won't stop fighting, but it's pretty great right about now. And I'm relentless optimistic about the future

message 16: by Sandra (new)

Sandra | 267 comments wow! this thread has gone here, there, and everywhere else re: feminism and happiness and reality and love.

i can speak for myself only. i am a feminist. my happiness doesn't depend on that fact, and i don't shunt away from reality. i speak up when i hear some sort of slur against a member of humanity. i live my life as respectfully as possible toward all. i'm not in a position to march with others anymore, but i have done so in the past. still, my heart is with the marchers, the demonstrators, the ralliers for whatever cause is right and just.

none of this makes me 'happy', per se. i am happy to be alive all these years, to see the changes that have taken place over nearly 7 decades, to have learned about the human spirit and its neverending reach for survival against the worst odds imaginable.

i am happy to have a wonderful daughter and husband who i love and who love me. i've had husbands who have hated me simply because i am a woman. i have another daughter who i don't like, have eliminated her from my life because of her abuse, but i still love her. does that make me happy? that i can love someone who shows no love toward me? no. that's just the reality of being my own brand of mother.

love comes in all forms, shapes, and sizes. i don't love my husband the same way i love my daughters or the same way i love my friends, or the same way i love humanity. does that make me happy? i don't connect those two. i'm happy because that's what i want to be. these are all choices i've made.

yet i can see both the beauty and ugliness of reality while living my life as happily as possible. i'm not blissful every day, nor am i wearing rose-colored glasses. i just live the best way i know how, being the best person i know how to be. i'm happy about that.

any 'movement' can throw out cliches - i've been hearing them since i've had awareness, from the hippies, to 12-step groups, to religions, to the aware and the unaware. i'm a proponent of independent thinking, and if that thinking coincides with the way i think, then we're on the same team.

i believe in equality for all humans. i speak up if i see or hear inequality, and it's in my power to do so. i love. i'm aware of reality. and most of the time i'm pretty happy with who i am. i am an individual, as is every person who is affiliated with whatever movement they so choose.

i don't know if this answers any questions. it's just one woman's life perspective.

message 17: by Noor (new)

Noor Amgad (nooramgad) | 16 comments Winston wrote: "Ya'll are so negative about the world. Like we've got a bunch of problems but in nearly every category, we're much better off as a whole than any time in history. I would argue, that for particular..."

Don't get me wrong. I know we are more innovative than the past. But as an old saying " History is repeating itself" (came in harry potter). Every era has its own villians, and as I say, preys and predators.

My father said to me that nothing is a hundred percent evil or a hundred percent good. And this is a valuable way to treat with people. We can describe the world nowadays as a ratio of 50 to 50 percent.

Sometimes I see the world as a peaceful place, but also we need to remember the bombs that have fallen on innocent countries. And yes I am a Muslim. I will support my people in everything. And that's why I don't see the world as an overall purified place. Sometimes you need to see the harsh reality to change things.

message 18: by Winston (new)

Winston | 180 comments Noor wrote: "Winston wrote: "Ya'll are so negative about the world. Like we've got a bunch of problems but in nearly every category, we're much better off as a whole than any time in history. I would argue, tha..."

Noor, I truly agree with you, this world is far from perfect and lots of places see horrific warfare/bombing/violence/unjustice. And I'm American so I'm far removed from events that happen in countries like Turkey or Nigeria, or Bangladesh, etc. I do find these terrible and that they are so under represented in the American narrative is a travesty.

But I just want to acknowledge the other face of reality, that it is better today than it was before. There are cycles of good people and bad people, but on a worldwide scale, more people can read, less people are in poverty, and warfare has greatly diminished. These are strong, positive strides.

We shouldn't be impatient with progress, nor falter in despair, but continue to struggle against intolerance and injustice with love and hope; knowing that we may not solve today, but make it as easy as possible to be solved tomorrow.

If I can help you, or causes you believe in, let me know how I can support and I'd be glad to look into it!

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