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Diversity - Spoilers through current book (whichever that might be)
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carol.
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Jan 20, 2017 10:15AM
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Ah, diversity. As a West Indian Black woman, who grew up in mostly White and Hispanic neighborhoods, I was quite used to not seeing "myself' at school, work, or even in my books. I actually didn't notice how lacking my entertainment was in diversity until people started asking for more.
Fast forward to marrying a biracial man (half White, and half Hispanic) and now raising 3 multiracial children, I find myself looking for diversity everywhere. This is one of the reasons why I absolutely love that Peter Grant is a biracial character.
Even though my kids' schools have all been multiethnic, and biracial children are the norm, they too still notice a lack of diversity in their movies and tv shows enough to comment on it every now and again.
My daughter is the most vocal, noting how there's always that one Black person in a sea of White faces, or no White faces in a sea of Black. How being diverse still seems to mean having the one Black kid, the one Hispanic kid, and the one or two Gay kids (but one has to go if you want to add an Asian or Eastern Indian child into the mix). How if there is a biracial kid they're not allowed to just be themselves; they are either stereotypically white or stereotypically black and called out for it by the other race.
I'm Indo-Canadian. The street I grew up on had one of every race it seemed, I was used to being one brown person among many white people at school and other places. I thought this was normal. But, when I went to college, I needed up hanging out with Chinese Canadians and finally felt comfortable; we actually had a lot in common in terms of family behaviours and expectations (and no, I'm not referring to the stereotypical Asian overachiever thing that everyone thinks of with respect to expectations.)At university, though, the whites were the minority in my program, computer science. But things went back to "normal" once I started work. Again, I was the lone brown person in the building, except for the security guards. But I was also starting to slowly notice how media, and stories in general, were really white, and I started noticing how Indians and other Asians were portrayed, if they appeared at all. I was not at all impressed.
Then I married a white guy and we have a bi-racial kid. So I notice mixed race couples and biracial kids, and every time I catch sight of a mixed race couple in media or on the street, I perk up.
To bring this back to the RoL books: I'm thrilled Peter is biracial. I was also so happy that so many of the characters in these stories reflect the years and years of immigration and mixing of cultures in London.
And Nyssa: I totally agree with what your daughter says. It's as if a cast of characters will implode/explode/fall apart if there is more than one of someone non-white, or non-heterosexual, or non-male.
I've already said it in my review for book 2 of this series, but I love the women featured in this series. I loathe with a fiery passion the term "strong, female character". I think Ben Aaronovitch has managed to create a cast which includes fantastic women, some of whom are brown.
I also perk up when I see other mixed race couples.My mom and step-dad used to do the same too! :) My mom said either they or the other couple would give the international, recognition nod to each other, when they lived in England. Lol
One thing I admire about British tv, biracial couples seem to be quite the norm. While here in the US, a few years ago, a biracial couple in a Cheerios ad still caused a fuss!
What I like about RoL is that Aaronovitch never seems to make a fuss of those things. Yes, Peter is biracial, Walid and Guleed are Muslims, Nightingale might be ga (or not, Im not sure there), Beverly Brook and her sisters is a persons of colour (not sure wether she is Nigerian or not), but that is only one aspect of there character and it does not define them completely. I've read so many books and seen so many films and series where the autors in an atempt to show how diverse they were with their cast focus soly on the race/gender/sexual orientation and in a kind of "positiv discrimination" gave of the impression "Look, that guy/girl is strong/intelligent/whatever even though s/he is a woman/black/gay/etc." Which is discriminating in and on itself.
Peter is not first and foremost biracial, he ist a PC of the Met and a trainee wizard who happens to be biracial, Walid is first and foremost a brilliant gastroenterologist, cryptopathologist and Scot who happens to have converted to Islam at some point, etc.
Interestingly enough the only thing he makes an issue of is DI Stephanopulos' sexual orientation. Peter never fails to mention that the first time they meet in a book, usually accompanied by some sort of lesbian stereotype. But there always is this sly irony to it so I'm not really sure how to take that.
Nyssa wrote: "I also perk up when I see other mixed race couples.My mom and step-dad used to do the same too! :) My mom said either they or the other couple would give the international, recognition nod to each..."
Whenever I walked around Vancouver or Toronto, it was normal to see mixed race couples. And how cool that your mom and step-dad would receive the "international, recognition nod"! : )
In Canada, you can see the occasional white-Chinese mixed race couple on an ad (the woman is always Chinese) for banks, or something like that. And more recently some vaguely Indian/Egyptian/something person with a white/Chinese mate.
I've also noticed that Brit TV tends to feature biracial couples much more frequently than N. American tv does. And though I've heard British brown actors voice their frustration with their job prospects in the UK, I find I'm more likely to see a brown person in a variety of roles on Brit TV than I am in N. America.
Lata wrote: "I've already said it in my review for book 2 of this series, but I love the women featured in this series. I loathe with a fiery passion the term "strong, female character"."I second that. That usually translates to "imature brat with sever anger management issues". I've rarely seen this interesting and really strong female characters as in RoL - even among all those female lead characters in UF.
Miriam wrote: "What I like about RoL is that Aaronovitch never seems to make a fuss of those things. Yes, Peter is biracial, Walid and Guleed are Muslims, Nightingale might be ga (or not, Im not sure there), Beve..."Agreed that Peter is foremost PC "distracted" Grant. And the other characters happen to be people with a variety of skills, who also happen to be people of colour,
And yeah, I was wondering also if I was the only one picking up on the way Stephanopolous was introduced in book 1. I'm starting on book 2 soon, in which she figures more prominently, so I can see if Aaronovitch reiterates the comments about her being a lesbian.
Lata, yes, he does. I'v read the first three books by now and he does it on every "first meeting" in the books. I wondered in Moon Over Soho and in Whispers Under Ground I really paused to think for some time because that felt so strange.
I wonder what's up with Aaronovitch deliberately calling our attention to her being a lesbian. Yes it's part of who she is, but she's also really good at her job, and in the context of a police procedural/urban fantasy, why is her sexual orientation such a big deal. Lesbians aren't uncommon.
Yeah, you are right there. Or maybe he wants to show us that even Peter who is a Londoner, PC, apprentice wizard, biracial, ... is not completely free of thinking in stereotypes.I mean, every now and again we are shown some of the prejudice Peter is confronted with based on him being a person of colour and we see him mentally rolling his eyes on those people but then he also has his own prejudice or misconceptions of lesbians. That's one way to show he's just another human.
True, it could be a way to show that everyone has issues and biases and -isms they may/may not be aware of.
Fascinating topic. So, full disclosure, I'm a white (German, Swiss, English and mutt) person from the midwest of the US, which means when I was growing up, about 93% of the people in the area were white. When we did ethnology in elementary school, people were Irish, Polish, French, etc., and the ethnic jokes were about Polish people, which I always feels goes to show one that people will find whatever reason they can to divide and marginalize. Eventually got turned onto sexuality and gender issues. Moved to Los Angeles in college and was immersed in ethnicity issues and hard-core new-wave feminism & multiculturalism.
I've always been a reader, so when I started to really understand the meaning of the whitewashing of all the fantasy books I read (and general implicit sexism), I made an effort to broaden out, eventually noticing the phenomenon Miriam notes above, where writers started to include the 'gay character,' the 'Asian character,' the 'black character,' etc. to meet readers' demands for more inclusivity and still being sensitive (!) to market demands. While that was a good starting point, that got tiresome as well. Very few fantasy/sci-fi books are filled with (heavy quotes here) "alternative" or, more accurately, under-represented/marginalized people.
Peter Grant series is truly the only UF that makes me feel like I'm back in college in California again, and we're just immersed in and reading about people in all their diversity. Which is not to say it is minimized either--I think Aaronovitch does a lovely job of finding the balance between recognizing -isms and not making them into the basis of the story, or the basis of a character trait.
I'll agree with everyone, and note that Stephanopolous does seem to be the one Peter is personally most ambivalent about. I was thinking it was Aaronovitch's issue, but now I think I agree with you, Miriam, that he is saying something about Peter's own personality and -isms. I note that Peter always seems to be careful to mind his 'ps and qs' around her. I suspect he might be intimidated by her.
I'll really look forward to everyone's opinion as we go on. I just re-realized there is a transgender character.
Carol. wrote: "I just re-realized there is a transgender character."
There is? Have I missed s/he or is s/he in one of the later books after Whispers Under Ground?
In a later book. It's quite lovely how it is dealt with, actually.
Carol. wrote: "In a later book. It's quite lovely how it is dealt with, actually."Lovely. I like it when authors treat their characters and readers with respect.
This is a great dialogue. And like some have said I like that Peter's being biracial isn't his defining quality. And I love that we get to know his parents and his roots and they matter. So his race isn't just a characteristic of diversity for diversity's sake alone. He's not the "token person of color."
Lata wrote: "Agreed that Peter is foremost PC "distracted" Grant."^Lol! That will now be his new official name - PC Peter "Distracted" Grant! :)
Miriam wrote: "Or maybe he wants to show us that even Peter who is a Londoner, PC, apprentice wizard, biracial, ... is not completely free of thinking in stereotypes.
I mean, every now and again we are shown some of the prejudice Peter is confronted with based on him being a person of colour and we see him mentally rolling his eyes on those people but then he also has his own prejudice or misconceptions of lesbians. That's one way to show he's just another human. ."
^Excellent point! I thought Peter's reaction was just another way of incorporating diversity into the story, although not as successfully done than with racial identity. But now, I think you're right.
Philip wrote: "... I like that Peter's being biracial isn't his defining quality. And I love that we get to know his parents and his roots and they matter. So his race isn't just a characteristic of diversity for diversity's sake alone. He's not the "token person of color." "
^This! Aaronovitch has done a good job of incorporating racial identity without beating the reader over the head!
I just realized that even though I posted this link to another thread, much of the content of the review of The Hanging TreeThe Hanging Tree pertains to diversity. So here's the link: http://www.tor.com/2017/01/30/book-re...
Thanks, Lata. It occurs to me, as I'm listening to Hanging Tree, that issues of ethnicity and culture come up in every book, in a multitude of ways. Sometimes they are funny in-jokes (in this one, Peter describes someone and says, "they couldn't be more obviously American if they painted themselves red, white and blue").
In some books, he'll mention hair issues--I think Whispers Underground had a small side character where the discussion was about 'ethnic' hair and letting it be 'natural.'
I think Peter is mostly resigned to small racisms, but they occasionally get mentioned, as in Foxglove Summer and being the 'poster boy' for police. In Hanging Tree, there's a moment with their new friends where Peter is referenced as the way 'things have changed.' He also has the 'master' discussion again.
I just love the way it all falls out--it feels so real to me, the way one has to notice race when you are a person of color, but how it isn't every waking moment or always need to be the Issue of the Week.
Interview that discusses multiculturalism and Peter Grant series: http://www.star2.com/culture/books/bo...
I really love Aaronovitch for declining two TV deals for his books because they wanted to whitewash Peter.I mean, how could they even think of it? Have they ever read the book. A big part of why they are so brilliant is because of their diversity.
There are hundreds of straight white heros out there in urban fantasy. No need to screw one of the few series that is different.
I was impressed as well.There's a reason I don't watch television... I can totally see how the execs might bill it as a show only for BET or something if it was to be done in America.
How nice that Aaronovitch hated the first US covers, which were utterly blech! And I'm glad he didn't allow producers to whitewash Peter Grant. What gives? Are we brown people so horrible that it's better to imagine us only as janitors and taxi drivers and nothing else?
I guess they feared white people wouldn't watch the series with so many non-white characters including the main character. I guess that wouldn't fit into their nice little pattern where you can only have so many non-white characters in a series and to add one you'd have to take another one out.I don't understand why though. Those books are bestsellers. Many people love them. And I guess many love them because they are diverse and so very British. To me that's the very essence of this series. And I would have never given any tv series a chance that would have Peter played by a white guy.
Americans can't seem to handle a multiracial cast and the Queen's English at the same time, I guess. Ugh. Now to hide from Trump's Gestapo before they revoke my citizenship.
I used to be a dual citizen of both Canada and the US. Here's weird timing for you: the day I gave up my US citizenship was Nov 8, 2016. (It's not like I picked that date. That was the date I was assigned over a year earlier as I ever so slowly worked through the process.
Lata wrote: "I used to be a dual citizen of both Canada and the US. Here's weird timing for you: the day I gave up my US citizenship was Nov 8, 2016. (It's not like I picked that date. That was the date I was a..."O.o Wow!
Hmm. Coincidentally, the day I stopped watching the news.
Carol. wrote: "I just re-realized there is a transgender character."Found her. And I think you are right. It's dealt with really good. Most of all I liked Nightingale's reaction to the "Gender Reevaluation Board". I mean, he's more than a hundred years of age, old British and gentleman to the core, so one would think him quite conservative either. And all he says is that he thinks a board like this "un-british" and one should just accept a persons word about his/her own gender and accept it.
And I like the fact, that it was not talk out in length in the narrative. I guess many an author could not have walked away from the temptation to make Nightingale the conservative guy he seems to be only for the opportunity to discuss their position on trans people in length to show how very forward they are. Maybe even marking the character as "s/he" all the time and bring it up frequently. I like the fact that after it was mentioned it wasn't brought up again an just accepted that she sees herself as female and so she is.
Yes, you identify everything I love about how he treats diversity in the series. I do think her portrayal was perhaps more nuanced then sexual identity has been with Stephanopolous, but I suspect that is also because Peter first knew the character as a woman, so he had to check his own assumptions.
I can't remember the exact lines--I think it evolved over a few pages, I remember being struck by it as listening--but I had the sense he was evaluating how it must of felt being the wrong gender. While looking at the photos, I think.
haha...it reminds of that dialogue when Nightingale uses the term Black Magician and Peter corrects the term to "ethically challenged magical practitioners". Kobna conveys Nightingale's patience and openness to the new world with a touch of exasperation perfectly.
That is one of my favorite times that Peter/Ben confronts our language head on.I just love the way Ben integrates those issues. I'm at the part in Whispers where Peter hooks up with Guleed for the first time and Casey (the white dude) as they go to Peter Galleger's house to meet any family--Guleed and Casey are the 'family liasons.' Guleed pulls out her wooly hat with ear flaps and puts it over her hajib. Peter asks her where she got it, and she says her brother sent it to her. Casey makes some crack about being cold in sand country or something, and Peter narrates, "Guleed and I just looked at each other because what can you do?"
That's the gist at least. I listened to it on the way to work :)
sidebar - you're just a little ahead of me iirc. I'm with Zac getting outraged by Molly's unilateral laundry efforts. this book makes me want to try brawn sandwiches with hot chocolate...then i remember what brawn is...reverse segue
Peter: Some would call me a black magician.
Nightingale: You're barely an apprentice!
interesting magazine links above, i hadn't realised that the US cover was different for that reason.
Oh, that scene was when they first went to the house, right before meeting Zac. Man, I love Kobna's reading of Zac.I don't know what brawn it! I'll be honest--most of the English food sounds unappetizing.
Carol. wrote: "Oh, that scene was when they first went to the house, right before meeting Zac. Man, I love Kobna's reading of Zac.I don't know what brawn it! I'll be honest--most of the English food sounds unap..."
Brawn is basically meat in aspic. Usually made by boiling a pig's head. Known in the north of England as potty ead or potted head.
Some English food is delicious. I loved fried slice. Had it for breakfast every day I was in London.
Reading this thread is very interesting.I was born and raised in Auckland, New Zealand, which, like London, has a multiplicity of ethnicities. I'd never heard the term biracial until I visited the USA. It was simply families. Dad might be Maori and mum white, or mum a Maori and dad an Indian.
I now live in Melbourne, which probably has more ethnicities than Auckland.
Diversity has always been a part of my life.
Carol. wrote: "I don't know what brawn it! "as Peter describes it "head cheese"
Margaret wrote: " Some English food is delicious. I loved fried slice. Had it for breakfast every day I was in London. ."
heheh, i worked in London for about six months. way too many hot chip sarnies. took a few more months to remove the heathrow injection when i returned to Sydney
What's a 'fried slice?' Slice of what? :DOne of my friends felt that in RoL that the diversity was rather canned at this point... to wit:
While the ethnic heterogeneity promotes diversity and adds flavor, the effort seems contrived somehow. For instance, there is the posh, white upper class male who dresses in beautifully cut suits and drives a Jaguar, an Asian-looking female with the palest skin and long jet black hair skilled in housekeeping, a highly credentialed male doctor of Middle Eastern origins who works for the NHS, a mixed race Sierra Leone male whose father was a failed Jazz musician and cocaine addict, and a magical Nigerian personality resplendent with big braided hair and Portuguese beads. Once again, I cannot shake off how purposefully colorful this casting variety is. It is almost made for TV.
I want to tell him he's wrong, but I can't, not exactly...
Well Molly is certainly not Asian - and I never perceived her as such - and Walid is a Scotsman. He converted and took on another name. The guy is most likely white.I must admit it never felt like that for me. Of course you can always boil down the characters to two or three maior aspects, and call the strereotypes but then that would be you doing and does say more about you than the book.
Take Nightingale for instance: Yes he dresses very immaculate, but Peter also peceives him as a bit "out of his time" when they first met. And peggs him as gay by the way. Then we learn Nightingale was born around the turn of the last century to an upperclass British family. So he was educated and socialized during the 1910s and suddenly his style of clothing makes perfect sense.
He drives a Jaguar from the 1970s or so, which is real posh but also has a very important reason: The lack of electronics in cars from that time which don't go well with magic. Same with the watch. (view spoiler)
So those things are there for a reason. And that are only two aspects of Nightingale's personality. He also is very openminded. Much of that is seen later but even in the first book we get an idea. He never remarks on Peter being a PoC and he is open to Peters suggestions regarding the ghost. We also get some first impressions that he is damaged or traumatized in some way by the event of the last war.
And so it is with all the other characters if you look for the details.
Well and maybe that's our little inner "racist" speaking: We are so used to getting our diversity in little homeopathic doses that everything else feels forcefully constructed and artificial.
Ugh. As a PoC, I did not feel that Aaronovitch's diversity was "canned". It felt natural for the setting (London). 1) As Miriam said, Molly's not of Asian descent. I grew up amongst a lot of Chinese, and Molly does not read at all Asian to me. And no, I'm not talking about all the disgusting negative stereotypes there are of Asians. Ben also does not describe her physically in a way that reads Asian to me.
2) Walid is described in book 1 as having ginger hair, which is in keeping with his Scottish heritage.
3) Nightingale is a swank dresser, but then, he grew up in a time when wearing waistcoats, pocket squares, greatcoats, etc. were the norm for gentlemen. His formative years would have included learning a particular style of speaking, behaviour, dressing, love for nice shoes and clothes.... And the part I like best about Nightingale is just how openminded he is, and how he understands why Peter cannot call him "Master", how Nightingale respects Walid's choice of name and religion, and other instances of his interactions with other characters.
4) And a Nigerian woman becoming the Thames spirit is pretty cool, and reflects that London has had all sorts of immigrants over the centuries.
5) And Peter being mixed race does not feel weird to me at all. I went to school with a several mixed race individuals, and many of my child's friends are mixed race.
I didn't feel that the above "ethnic heterogeneity" felt contrived or TV-ready.
By the way, has your friend looked at TV lately? PoC still largely figure as side and supporting characters, in a cast of mostly European-descended individuals. There are very few PoC in TV shows who are the main characters.
Perhaps because I read too much fantasy... I always took Molly as some sort of Fae. ;)
I kind of get how one could see some of the issues--N. as 'posh,' Bev as the 'African woman as sex goddess,' but I think there's a ton more subtlety in the characterization of everyone, so I really never viewed them as one-note. Although, saying that, I also appreciate that Ben also doesn't bother to 'explain' things about why people would be the way they are, like why Walid is a Scottish Muslim.Ha, excellent point, Lata. Although maybe he is watching more 'modern' tv shows.
The interesting question is: Would people perceive the cast in the same way as artificial and made specially for tv/movie/etc. if they were all white? Has anyone ever acused Jim Butcher of creating the cast of the Dresden Files with a tv/movie adaption in mind?
I have only read the first two books in that series, but I don't remember any non-white, non-straight character. And don't tell me, Chicago is 99% white. I've never been to the US but that I would not believe.
Well, the person that thought of that in the review is not a normal UF reader--but that's an excellent point. I can see where some creators may feel castigated either way, that they aren't being inclusive, or that they are inclusive in a canned, artificial way. I think reading the series makes it absolutely clear that it isn't artificial. And excellent point, Miriam, about Dresden/Butcher. Of course, I think his writing is generally sexist and homophobic (on the rare occasions it comes up), so I'm doubtful he'd do any justice to PoC.
Carol. wrote: "What's a 'fried slice?' Slice of what? :DOne of my friends felt that in RoL that the diversity was rather canned at this point... to wit:
While the ethnic heterogeneity promotes diversity and add..."
Fried slice is a slice of bread, white for preference, fried until it is golden brown and crispy. Cholesterol city but soooo good. Especially with baked beans.
Carol. wrote: "Perhaps because I read too much fantasy... I always took Molly as some sort of Fae. ;)"She is. In Foxglove Summer when Peter meets the Fairy Queen he realizes that that is what Molly is.
Miriam wrote: "The interesting question is: Would people perceive the cast in the same way as artificial and made specially for tv/movie/etc. if they were all white? Has anyone ever acused Jim Butcher of creati..."
Chicago, apparently, like Detroit has a majority black population. According to a friend of mine who went there for work. He wasn't troubled as he's Maori and grew up in Auckland like I did, but his white Australian co-worker nearly had conniption fits.
Margaret wrote: "Carol. wrote: "Perhaps because I read too much fantasy... I always took Molly as some sort of Fae. ;)"She is. In Foxglove Summer when Peter meets the Fairy Queen he realizes that that is what Mol..."
I know that, silly! I'm just saying from the start, I never thought she was human, so human ethnicities were kind of irrelevant :)
Carol. wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Carol. wrote: "Perhaps because I read too much fantasy... I always took Molly as some sort of Fae. ;)"She is. In Foxglove Summer when Peter meets the Fairy Queen he realizes that..."
So did I. Wasn't there a scene in RoL where Peter remarks on Molly having too many and too sharp teeth?
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Moon Over Soho (other topics)The Hanging Tree (other topics)
