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Intersectional Feminism > If Society Abolished Gender Roles, Would Trans People Still Be Around?

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message 1: by Indigo (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments As the person who started the topic, I respectfully request that you all obey the terms of agreement for posting on the forums here. Any trolls or those deemed as such - people who refuse to read the replies that others sent them, refuse to acknowledge the sources provided, and continue on saying transphobic, homophobic, sexist, racist, and other bigoted words - will be called out by me and others in this thread, judged by the mods, and if necessary, evicted from the thread as well.

I want this to be a safe space for all, and that by necessity means a safe space for LGBT+ or MOGAI community members, as well as for those who are disabled, POC, neurodivergent, poor, and otherwise not of the dominant white, straight, Christian, cisgender, able-bodied, neurotypical, middle-class to rich group of people of this country of America and in many other places around the world.

Unfortunately this thread, as like other threads in this forum, is written in English. Those who need for whatever reason clarity or someone to reword something to make it easier to understand, please feel free to request that. I know English is not the first language of most people around this world, and even if it is your first language, you may still struggle with it. We are here for you as well.

Also, for the benefit of all those who are hard of hearing/deaf (such as I), please make sure to link to videos with proper captioning or a captioned movie/video if you do link something. That or provide a transcript either written up by yourself or by others that is accurate to what is actually said by the people within the video.

All those who violate these terms will be referred back to this first post so that they may educate themselves on what is to be expected in this thread. Hopefully, this will cut down on cyberbullying and invite those members of this forum - such as myself - to actually join in and comment, when before they declined to post or comment on anything out of fear of being the only one or possibly attacked for being of a minority group, and therefore feeling too unsafe to participate.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Let's all make sure this thread is a safe one indeed, and one to thoughtfully and calmly discuss this topic. Especially since it has proven to be quite a controversial topic before and often botched by those who did not have enough experience to really know what pitfalls and hurtful traps to stay away from.

Thank you and have a good day.


message 2: by Indigo (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Now that I got those terms out of the way and made them explicitly clear, let’s get onto the topic of this thread.

Let’s imagine a world without gender roles. Gender roles are certain sets of traits that are approved of by society that everybody MUST fit into or risk ostracization/being kicked out (or worse). In this society (of America at the very least, but it is indeed a binary society promoted across the world by White Imperialist Culture through force and extermination of all those who didn’t fit that binary) the gender role of “man” is a very different thing than the gender role of “woman” and there is no space in this binary society for any other roles approved of by society. Hence why I call it a binary society, or one with only two choices.

Likewise, the assignment of sex upon an infant is meant to force or conform that infant into one of two paths. If the infant is assigned female, they are assumed to like all stereotypically feminine traits and praised for when they fit the gender role of girl, and punished through various means when they deviate. There is, of course, more leniency and flexibility as one gets older and is more able to actually say how they truly feel and get more and more power and legitimacy from increasing age to back up their beliefs and viewpoints.

The same thing happens to infants assigned male as they are forced into the gender role of first boy, then man. Any infant that has genitals that look different than the two sets determined by society is someone who is considered intersex. Unfortunately, up until very recently in some places (and even to this very day in most) that non-conforming infant is forced to undergo genital surgery that the infant and their parents did not agree to, in order to force that infant into one of the two boxes. This leads to a lot of trauma that must be dealt with later on, and opens up the infant to further abuses as they grow older, by the medical establishment.

Now… in this hypothetical world (since most assuredly we DO NOT live in this world and MUST deal with the reality of the painful and destructive world facing us today) such coercive gender roles and boxing is therefore gone and not engaged in. There is no more destructive genital mutilation, no more assumption of someone’s gender. There is no more “decorating the nursery in only blues for a boy or only pinks for a girl” (never mind just how recent that color association was in fact).

There are no more putting one’s assigned sex upon a birth certificate. There is no more only “boy’s toys” or “girl’s toys” and never the twain shall meet. There is no more automatic assumption of someone’s pronouns just by looking at them, and no more using “ladies and gentlemen” as if there aren’t people in the audience who identify as nonbinary. There is no more forcing those perceived girls and women into certain jobs and those perceived as boys and men into others. There is no more confusion over what nonbinary genders even are, as well as no more confusion and rejection of requests to please use a certain set of pronouns that aren’t “he/him/his” or “she/her/hers.”

Likewise, there is no more asking who the “man is” in the relationship, or questions of “who wears the pants” or “the man brings home the bacon.” There is no more assumption that as a boy/man you must have a high sex drive. There is no more assuming that men “must” pursue women, and that women “must” be pursued even against their wills. There is no more forcing men to be violent, cold-hearted, unemotional abusers just to “be manly” in others’ eyes. There is no more forcing women to be quiet, docile, self-doubting, and servile to be the “perfect wife” for another (usually assumed to be a man).

There is no more anger and rejection of a man engaging in what is considered “feminine” traits, because in this world there are no gender roles and therefore there is no set list of traits considered assigned to one gender verses the other. There is no more double-standard of valorizing women when they engage in “masculine” traits and yet tearing them down if they do it “too much.”

There is no more hatred and attacks against men who wish to be mothers, who have periods, have breasts, have curves, and have vaginas instead of penises. There is no more hatred and attacks against women who wish to be fathers, who have erections, have flat chests, have broad shoulders, and have penises instead of vaginas. There is no more hatred and attacks against women who are hairy and men who cannot grow a beard. There is no more hatred and attacks against people who are fat and overweight, as well as those who are skinny and have ribs showing, against people who have over-defined muscles, as well as those who are more soft than hard in curves. Why? Because certain body ideals are strongly tied with gender roles as well. The “woman must be curvy but also thin” and the “man must be muscular and never skinny.”

So, my question asks… in such a world without gender roles? Is there still gender?

My answer is….

Yes.


message 3: by Indigo (last edited Jan 18, 2017 11:34PM) (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Yes, there would still be gender in a world without gender roles.

Why, you ask?

Because the key word is the one you’re overlooking. It’s the word “roles.”

There have ALWAYS been people feeling and identifying with one gender or another. Regardless of whether society feels that is “appropriate” or not. There have ALWAYS been people who feel like their bodies are shaped wrong and do not line up with how they feel their bodies should work and function. There have always been people who love certain genders that society has not approved of.

Look deep into history of all sorts of cultures around the world and you WILL come across those people. Even if White Imperalist societies try their hardest to erase and eradicate the evidence, it is there. We are there. We will ALWAYS be here.

In such a hypothetical world, however… what won’t be there is the pressure from society telling us that we MUST be a certain way or another.

To be honest… that sounds wonderful to me!

Yes, we trans people will indeed be in this world. We may not be called the same thing, but we will still exist. Why? Because our dysphoria is on multiple levels.

There are such things as physical dysphoria, which is one I think you’ve probably heard of. That is the feeling that your body shape does not match up with your mental map of what SHOULD be there. Since trying to change that mental map does nothing but cause torture, grievous mental, emotional, and physical harm as well as leading into outright suicide in many cases, the OBVIOUS solution is to change the body shape to match the mental map.

There is also social dysphoria. That is where your perception of how you want to be treated is not matched by how society treats you. This ranges from everything from being called “sir” or “ma’am” to being assumed a man or a woman based on your physical appearance and reacted to accordingly, to being included and treated in groups as one would another man or woman, and getting the advantages (or disadvantages) that come along with that.

Abolishing gender roles will help a lot with social dysphoria. It may even eliminate most of the dysphoria in this sector aside from the initial discrepancy as someone figures out how they want to be treated now is different than how they wanted to be treated before. Such as those who are genderfluid and will change between preferred presentation and treatments based on how their inner experience of gender changes. Or those who didn’t yet have the words for what they experience (as in feeling different from their body shape) and once gained the words, they then use it to empower themselves into being treated the way they feel most comfortable with.

However… abolishing gender roles will NOT abolish physical dysphoria. That is what WILL continue (to varying degrees as each person feels that dysphoria individually and personally) and will be a sign of incongruence between the person’s inner mental map and their outside body plan. It really does depend upon the individual whether they feel this kind of dysphoria at all, let alone for what body parts, and to what degree. It is a highly individual experience and varies depending on the person you ask.

But nevertheless, this will continue even in a world without gender roles. And since this is what people tend to think of when they hear the word “transgender person” then yes, we trans people will continue to be here. Also, those who are agender, will continue to feel like they have no gender and be perfectly fine with being treated in a similar way and not be forced to have to conform just to survive. Same with those who are bigender, pangender, polygender, and have otherwise “different from the Socially Approved Norm” of gender experience will likewise STILL be here, feeling what they’re feeling, and preferring to be treated in the ways that they wish to be treated. Men will still feel like men but have more freedom to engage in whatever behaviors MAKES them feel like men, truly, without having to worry about how others perceive them and whether if others would think them “less of a man” for doing that. Same for women and engaging in their femininity however they wish and feel most comfortable with.

Disclaimer: Obvious restrictions would be in place for behaviors that severely degrade, torture, abuse, rape, hurt, injure, or even kill other members of society. Those behaviors will never be tolerated no matter how that perpetrator feels about it. Same with behaviors that do not operate upon the informed consent of EVERY individual involved, with respect and acknowledgement to bodily autonomy, free will, and the right to healthy boundaries. Those indeed should NEVER be considered any sort of trait or behavior that one can engage in without severe recriminations and punishments no matter the perpetrator’s gender or the gender of the victims. Such behavior should NEVER be rewarded or perceived to be rewarded in ANY way, shape, or form. Thank you.

I just think being able to move through society with ONLY having to deal with physical dysphoria and none of the conformist BS that tends to come from social pressures to fit in one box or another, oh that would be divine. I can easily take hormones like testosterone to help with some of that physical dysphoria. And surgery (once it gets up to a certain level) to help with the rest.

But if I did not have to deal with the social pressures condemning me from walking around bare-chested because boobs are seen as inherently a “woman” thing and therefore “HORRIBLE!!” to have exposed for SOME reason…. Whereas flat-chested men do not have to deal with that pressure at all… I think I may not even need much of a chest surgery to deal with my dysphoria around that issue. So that is more social dysphoria for me.

(Some apologies for possible TMI up ahead with genital talk but it illustrates my point nicely.)

However, the functionality of my genitals is something that is more a physical dysphoria. I do not want it to “be better in the bedroom” as some may think or to “be seen as more of a man.” I want it just to have the basic functions that people born with penises enjoy, including all the bathroom functions, day to day functions, and yes even the somewhat embarrassing spontaneous erections functions. It’s less of how I’m seen by others and more of how my body works and functions for ME, and would stay there regardless if there are others around me or not. That is more physical dysphoria.

Now with that all covered, I would be curious to hear what your thoughts are regarding this. I’ve been thinking about this quite a lot and this is the conclusion that I have come to in regards to this particular topic.


message 4: by Laure (last edited Jan 19, 2017 12:48AM) (new)

Laure | 390 comments Thanks Indigo for creating this space.
Your description of a world without gender roles is awesome. On one hand, I really enjoyed reading it, thinking "yes, that's it, that's what I want!"; on the other hand, I feel (a bit) sad now, realizing that I won't live long enough to live until it happens (although I'm still quite young ^^)
I'm really looking forward to reading the comments of others, and especially the ones of non-binary or trans people.


message 5: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Indigo wrote: "Yes, there would still be gender in a world without gender roles.

Why, you ask?

Because the key word is the one you’re overlooking. It’s the word “roles.”

There have ALWAYS been people feeling a..."


I have read all your three posts in here, and am eager to read what will be discussed here in the future.
I must say that for me, this is a whole new perspective to look at it, because I have so far more thought about gender, and not so much about it from the sex' perspective.

If I ever came off as rude in any way, I deeply apologize, it wasn't my intention.
And I agree with you, gender and gender role are two aspects not to be used in the wrong way. They both exist (yet), but aren't to interchangeable.


message 6: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Laure wrote: "Thanks Indigo for creating this space.
Your description of a world without gender roles is awesome. On one hand, I really enjoyed reading it, thinking "yes, that's it, that's what I want!"; on the ..."


I can only second here Laure. I'm sad too that we won't live long enough to experience an environment without gender roles.

Non-binary and trans people, you're the experts in this, let hear from you!


message 7: by Indigo (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Thank you so much both of you Laure and MeerderWorter for the kind words and welcome! <3

I also feel sad that most likely I won't be able to see this happen on this planet within my lifetime. I will certainly do my best to make it happen for future generations however. Up to and including fighting every step of the way for equal rights and opportunities to live lives free from societal pressures to fit in only two boxes and nowhere else.

I know there's at least one other trans person on this forum but I am not sure if they're still visiting. It can be that, just like me, the dearth of ready contact with others like us in these forums made us look elsewhere for that kind of community and leave this site.

Hopefully the more trans and MOGAI friendly title will help encourage those remaining and those newly joined to take a peek here and see what they might want to share.

Meerder you didn't come off rude to me, to be honest. It was simply some other folk on some of the other threads that made me feel unsafe and worried about even contributing anything to the discussion in that environment. So I made it explicitly clear in the first post what I was looking for and would be watching out and guarding against, in order to make this place a safe space indeed.

For those who wish to comment, I look forward especially to those of the MOGAI community, like me, the trans people, nonbinary folk, and intersex people. Even effeminate gays and butch lesbians would be more than welcome to comment, even if the trans people, nonbinary people, and intersex people are the ones I'd look for the most.

Thank you, those of you who are cisgender, for choosing to step back and listen in this thread and to default to those with more experience in these matters. Feel free to comment of course, but I am thankful that you are not trying to assume or dominate the space. Thank you again for doing this for us.


message 8: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments OK first thanks for opening the debate to include someone actully effected like yourself will clarify matters. So on to the discussion are you saying Indigo gender roles would be open to anyone no matter who they identify as. Or the elimination of roles completely.

If there are no roles gender as a social comstruct as opposed to biology would diminish or even vanish, therefor how would someone know they are in the wrong one. I know this may seem obvious and even simplistic. But from what I have read on gender identity it seems the signs of not being in the correct one are in dress and prefernces, such as toy selection. without gender roles identity itself would change and maybe gender would not be such a factor.

In the past as far as the 1900's all children wore dresses until they were 5 years old, then short dresses and trousers until you were considered adult and long clothes were worn. These conventions were used to impose roles as a method of control suggesting the powers that be were aware of the social elements of identity.

in summary if the brains of women and men are same beyond sex does gender as it is currently seen exist as an absolute at all.

I am not making a judgement on if these things are a good or bad just opening the debate.


message 9: by Jule (new)

Jule (beautifulletters) | 16 comments I don't think I'm able to contribute much to this discussion, but I also want to thank you for creating this space. When I read your posts in another thread, I noticed that I was actually using some terms that were completely wrong and I want to apologize for that. It definitely wasn't my intention, but I know that can't be an excuse for everything and I promise to be more careful in the future. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for giving me the opportunity to learn (of course I'm aware of the fact, that this is not why this thread was created in the first place, but I'm just letting you know that it's still helpful for me, to educate myself on the topic and to gain a bit more of understanding).


message 10: by Carol (new)

Carol  | 3 comments I just wanted to comment and say that even though I have nothing to directly contribute to this conversation (as a bi cis woman), I found your post both interesting and enlightening. I look forward to reading the perspectives of others who are the true experts in this subject. And really wish that I will someday get to live in the world you describe--it would be better for everyone, regardless of gender identity.


message 11: by Ross (last edited Jan 19, 2017 03:13AM) (new)

Ross | 1444 comments I believe I am right in saying you do not have to be an expert to contribute to this or any other thread if only experts where allowed the whole heforshe moment would not have gotten far let alone made the progress it has.

We are all experts of our own thoughts. If a pattern Clark can unravel the secrets of the universe you out there may have the key idea to make a gender equal world a reality tomorrow.


message 12: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Indigo wrote: "Thank you so much both of you Laure and MeerderWorter for the kind words and welcome! <3

I also feel sad that most likely I won't be able to see this happen on this planet within my lifetime. I w..."


I'm glad I didn't come off rude, I wasn't sure. Now, I'm not familiar with the acronym MOGAI, so what do the single letters stand for?
Thanks in advance,

and, you're always welcome!


message 13: by Jeremy (new)

Jeremy Thompson | 62 comments Gender is more than roles. Expression and identity are in the mix. Of course there would still be trans folk.


message 14: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Ross wrote: "If there are no roles gender as a social comstruct as opposed to biology would diminish or even vanish, therefor how would someone know they are in the wrong one. I know this may seem obvious and even simplistic. But from what I have read on gender identity it seems the signs of not being in the correct one are in dress and prefernces, such as toy selection. without gender roles identity itself would change and maybe gender would not be such a factor. ..."

This sounds too simplistic to me.
Dress and toys selction are something I belive where men and women would show little difference given free reign.

I don't think that gender is a simple "construct", kids already realize that there is a difference between boys and girls before that difference becomes much of a thing.
So, I'd say gender is as much a biological trait as it is something learned from society.


message 15: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
Thank you so much, Indigo. Really. I was kinda worried that you would not be willing to open your own thread after the incidents these days, so to say. I know that it's very easy for us to say that this is overall a safe place, we do our best, blah, but the thing is, we're still cis. We still don't fully understand.

As for me, I am busy right now but I don't think I will contribute much to this thread for now anyway, other than just reading carefully. :)

Oh, and please do not hesitate to let us admins know if someone tried to spoil the fun. I am sure any of us would be happy to help. :)


message 16: by Indigo (last edited Jan 21, 2017 03:36AM) (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments MeerderWörter wrote: "Indigo wrote: "Thank you so much both of you Laure and MeerderWorter for the kind words and welcome! <3

I also feel sad that most likely I won't be able to see this happen on this planet within m..."


I've recently learned of MOGAI and decided personally that it was automatically far more inclusive than LGBT+ where you have to keep adding letters to try to represent everybody.

MOGAI means Marginalized Orientations, Gender Alignments, and Intersex. It was created to try to avoid some of the traps that pedophiles were trying to use to classify themselves as a "misunderstood oppressed minority" which only perpetrated some very sick abuses of the pedophiles on unprotected children and minors. It was also created to avoid having to keep adding on a letter and have people forget certain letters or hyperfocus on others to the exclusion of everybody else.

Also the "orientations" are meant to refer to both sexual and romantic orientations though they can differ in an individual person. (Pedophiles NOT included.) "Gender alignments" include trans folk as well as nonbinary people. And intersex featured prominently so that we will not forget them and will make sure to include them and not exclude them when they need our help and support.

I hope this helps? :) I love the MOGAI acronym myself but I use LGBT+ in conjunction with that because I know not a lot of people are aware of it, due to it being so new.


message 17: by Indigo (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Jeremy wrote: "Gender is more than roles. Expression and identity are in the mix. Of course there would still be trans folk."

Wonderfully and succinctly said there Jeremy. My hat off to you.


message 18: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Indigo wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Indigo wrote: "Thank you so much both of you Laure and MeerderWorter for the kind words and welcome! <3

I also feel sad that most likely I won't be able to see this happen o..."


Thanks, yet another lesson learned. Yeah, it makes more sense to use this one, where you don't have to add letter by letter, and you could forget some, and focus too much on others.


message 19: by Indigo (last edited Jan 21, 2017 04:25AM) (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Gerd wrote: "Ross wrote: "If there are no roles gender as a social comstruct ...

This sounds too simplistic to me.
Dress and toys selction are something I belive where men and women would show little difference given free reign.

I don't think that gender is a simple "construct", kids already realize that there is a difference between boys and girls before that difference becomes much of a thing.
So, I'd say gender is as much a biological trait as it is something learned from society."


I agree with you Gerd. I know many different cis men and cis women who already use toys and tools as well as buy and wear clothing often ascribed to the so-called "opposite gender" without once doubting their own intrinsic experience of their gender identity.

As a trans man, I am an effeminate one. I would love to wear tight and clinging clothing like those effeminate gay cis men do, be clearly a man in a dress, but I do not out of fear that cis people would misgender me as a woman when I am not, based on my body shape, and then threaten me with rape, violence, or even death for my non-conformity.

But that doesn't change the fact that I am NOT a "manly" man, a "macho" man, and have absolutely no interest in most of the "stereotypically manly" activities (such as sports, beer or alcohol, armpit hair, being a slob, anything related to guns or violence, or being more emotionally repressed than a robot). I also have no interest in a great deal of "stereotypically feminine" activities (like makeup, shopping, gossip, eating chocolates, wearing high heels, shaving legs, paying attention to fashion, and eating salads).

I mean I died a little inside just writing out that "stereotype" list, because I could not understand why society thinks THIS list of random traits is somehow "masculine" or "feminine" verses just... neutral traits that just are.

Instead, I'm artsy, emotionally expressive with intense emotions, creative, eccentric, would wear wizard robes or longcoats every day if I could, dye my hair blue, cry at the drop of a hat, would rather use words than fists, watch science documentaries obsessively, am an Air Disasters nerd, and love to discuss social justice issues and throw shade on how obviously fracked up everything is in this society.

Yet I am a man, identify as a man, and feel ridiculously happy when someone refers to me as "sir" or "son" or "man" or with he/him pronouns. Being seen as a man in a dress by other men in dresses at Comic Con made me feel euphoric and like I was "finally seen as who I am in truth." Being around effeminate gay men who flick their wrists, say "girlfriend," grin big and laugh bigger, have fabulous style of hair and clothing, neatly groomed, and shed tears without shame makes me feel like I've "come home" to my "kindred spirits."

To have a body that society has labeled a "man's body" (flat chest, deep voice, penis, less body fat and more sharp definition, height, broad shoulders, and muscles) would feel FAR more natural to me than being in this............ strangely shaped body that lacks what I want down there, and seems to think that regularly bleeding out and clenching in great pain once a month is a fun torture device to make me feel even less at ease in my own skin. Having the inconvenient "morning wood" would be far easier to bear than looking in a mirror to see someone who is a "familiar stranger" at most and certainly would never be mistaken as "me" by myself.

I knew long before I ever knew there was a word for transgender people or that concept even existed, that I wanted to have a penis and not a vagina. I knew this from an early age but never breathed a word of it because I likewise knew that such longings were "terribly abnormal" and just something you Never Spoke About. However, I had jut assumed that everybody else felt just as ill-at-ease in their own skin as I did. Just as disconnected from their own reflections as I was.

It wasn't until I read those as symptoms of gender dysphoria in my late teenage years that it hit me hard in the face. My first reaction was "Wait what?! You mean to say that other people don't feel this way? I thought it was normal, just something nobody ever spoke about! ...You mean to say that it's actually abnormal and something only found in gender dysphoria...?"

That was a bit of a nasty shock to me.

So, to answer your question Ross... NO.

Gender is not toys played with or clothing worn. One can choose to use their clothing to advertise how they feel at heart, or to express different parts of their gender to the outside world.

But that does not mean that gender can be reduced to mere articles of clothing. That does not mean that without gender roles entirely, that somehow gender would not exist.

I feel my own gender strongly enough to know that even without gender roles that I am still my gender, that I am still a man. I just feel manly doing things that this society would call "feminine." That's how I feel manly and like a man. I don't feel like a woman doing it. I feel like a man doing it.

There have been plenty of cis men throughout history and in all sorts of different cultures who did feminine things (leaving aside for now the tricky bit of how something that is "feminine" in one culture can be considered rightfully as "masculine" in another...) and they are still men. They do not doubt what their gender is, nor do they feel like they are a woman or want to be a woman.

Trans women feel very differently than cis men. And just like a trans man can do feminine things alongside cis men doing the same feminine things and still be men, trans women doing masculine things are just the same as cis women doing masculine things because at the end of the day they are still women.

Gender is not what you do, or how you appear, or what you perform. Gender is how you feel inside, regardless of anything else going on around you.

Sex is the shape of your body. Sexual orientation is who you go to bed with (or even if you want to go to bed with someone at all), as in sex partner. Gender is who you go to bed AS (as in who are you beneath the clothing, underneath the sheets, underneath your very skin itself).

So those are important points I want to emphasize here. Thank you for taking the time to read this far.


message 20: by Indigo (last edited Jan 21, 2017 04:38AM) (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Ross wrote: "I believe I am right in saying you do not have to be an expert to contribute to this or any other thread if only experts where allowed the whole heforshe moment would not have gotten far let alone ..."

I am not saying that "only experts are allowed to comment here." I am saying that if you are cisgender and do not know what it feels like to be told that you are an entirely different gender than the one you know to be true inside you for a good part of your life by practically everybody else in society, that you may miss some things that those of us who have experienced this would more likely know by heart.

I am also saying that if you come here and insist that your viewpoints and information is far more "correct and accurate" than what we are sharing (those of us who have had to really deconstruct the whole notion of gender roles and even gender itself a lot of times, who have often poured over research and evidence, theories and philosophies, and wrestled with those weighty, thorny issues in our heads in an attempt to figure out how to possibly explain them to the people around us in any way, shape, or form), then I will kindly ask for you to sit down and be quiet for once to really listen to someone else who knows better about the topic. To listen and learn, instead of trying to dominate the conversation and insist that your viewpoints are what's most accurate, over the top of our voices.

Why is this important to create a space that emphasizes this?

Because our voices are so regularly drowned out in the rest of society, the rest of the internet even, that we need a space to ourselves to really speak frankly and to be heard for once.

Also, a lot of pain and torture, mess and chaos, has resulted from cisgender people thinking that their half-baked and barely understood ideas are the Right And Proper Truth, then steamrolling over our voices and bodies in an attempt to crush all opposition to that decided-upon cisgender narrative. Much of which could've been avoided entirely if those cisgender people had taken the time out to really listen to what we have to say and actually try to boost our voices instead of yelling over us and drowning us out.

This is not to say that "only experts" are allowed to talk. This is to say that while you're here (if you're cisgender), please do be ready to quiet down and listen up when someone who is trans or nonbinary or intersex is speaking from our experiences. To listen and maybe learn a thing or two.

Of course you can talk, but do be prepared to be reminded to calm down and give others space to talk as well.

Remember... you're still learning.

We're willing to talk and share our own experiences... but for there to be any learning to happen... you must also be ready to listen.

I hope that is more clear to you, after my explanation.


message 21: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Indigo wrote: "We're willing to talk and share our own experiences... but for there to be any learning to happen... you must also be ready to listen. "

You have put that in a wonderful way. May I copy it and use it for myself, when others are discussing gender with me?


message 22: by Indigo (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments MeerderWörter wrote: "Indigo wrote: "We're willing to talk and share our own experiences... but for there to be any learning to happen... you must also be ready to listen. "

You have put that in a wonderful way. May I ..."


Of course you can copy it and use it for yourself as needed! :) <3 I remember reading something similar to that but forgot the exact phrasing so I made it my own there. :) It's definitely a good truth to remember though. :)


message 23: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Indigo wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Indigo wrote: "We're willing to talk and share our own experiences... but for there to be any learning to happen... you must also be ready to listen. "

You have put that in a..."


Thanks. Be sure to come across it somewhere here:)


message 24: by Bii (new)

Bii (biileto) | 2 comments I recently read The Hand of Darkness which tackled this issue. It's a sci-fi novel about an ambisexual society, thus no gender roles. It's very interesting if you'd like to see LeGuin's take on this topic.


message 25: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (last edited Mar 12, 2017 07:45PM) (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
I am using a few free minutes at work to type this comment so I can't extend myself much, but I would just like to say that, the older I get (which is luckily not much yet, haha, Peter Pan syndrome here)...the older I get, the more OK I am with realising that I don't know everything. That I actually barely manage to grasp a tiny percentage of said 'everything', and that while this is fine because I am human and there's only so much I can truly get to be knowledgeable about, my not knowing/understanding everything does not render other people's experiences and stories invalid.

It is not easy to dismantle the set of rigid, one-size-fits-all Unquestionable Truths that we have been given. And that's fine, we are all in this together. But it's just like Indigo said -when somebody else's story is out of our own realm, it's OK to be humble, to listen rather than to talk. It's actually empowering to walk out of an interaction with another person feeling like you've learned something new and your views are now more ample, even if that leaves place for a healthy degree of questioning. I think we tend to overvalue the concept of Truth. Truth might make us feel safer, but it won't necessarily make us happier, more compassionate or wiser.

Philip Pullman said it much better than I have, anyway:

We don't need lists of rights and wrongs, tables of do's and don'ts: we need books, time, and silence.

To which I'd like to add that we need people, too. :)


message 26: by Christian (new)

Christian Frates (Cwf97) | 6 comments If that happens, I would say, yes because my two favorite writers which are Lilly and Lana Wachowski who are two transgender sisters who created the Matrix trilogy and Jupiter Ascending. They are the best transgender women writers of all time.


message 27: by Karen (new)

Karen (crazykaren) | 9 comments Yes, The Left Hand of Darkness covered this very well.


message 28: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Ana wrote: "I am using a few free minutes at work to type this comment so I can't extend myself much, but I would just like to say that, the older I get (which is luckily not much yet, haha, Peter Pan syndrome..."

Karl Mannheim actually developed a very good concept, that says that while there might be ONE truth, we can never see all of it, since we live in different places, times, and have different upbringings. Especially nowadays, where we live in a global village, we need to remember this more and more.


message 29: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1086 comments Mod
Please forgive me, but I do not understand.

If there are no gender roles, would we have such words like feminine or masculine? Similar to how the words baldam, gudgeon, or habliment are no longer in use. If gender roles are not present, then wouldn't our culture and therefore our language also progress as well?

Would we still need a word to describe these antics that are not prescribed to one or another but is what it is? Like an apendex, it's there, but we don't have too much of a conscious need?


message 30: by Indigo (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Pam wrote: "Please forgive me, but I do not understand.

If there are no gender roles, would we have such words like feminine or masculine? Similar to how the words baldam, gudgeon, or habliment are no longer..."


Gender roles are expectations of how you "SHOULD" act. You can most certainly act a certain way, and not have that be the expectation of behavior at all. We love labeling things in general so I doubt the labels and the associations would go away entirely.

We love boxing things up and saying that THIS color has these associations and THAT color has those associations. Even if you got rid of the damaging anti-blackness and the valorization of white over black, light over dark, you'll STILL be left with things like how navy blue is a "serious military" color from the association with the navy uniforms, or red is a "color of blood and war" or even "love and romance," and that yellow is a "happy color" because of the sunflower and sunshine association, and so on and so on.

Just because none of those are tied to any particular gender roles doesn't mean they get all abolished because of that. They're still there and will still be there. And different cultures will still interpret the same color and label differently, due to their individual history and environment.

I see labels like feminine and masculine remaining because they do help with describing a certain category. Abolishing gender roles means that you don't HAVE to fit in that category or this category and there's no punishment for not fitting anymore. That you have the freedom to move between categories and find which one works for you.

After all, go to different places in the world and you'll find different stereotypes of what "masculine" means vs. "feminine" and beyond that as well. We don't all interpret it the same way, and that's part of the diversity that I hope we would more freely share with the abolishing of gender roles.

Gender would still be here, perception and expression of your gender would still be here, certain traits clustered together under a label would still be here. What would NOT remain is the insistence and pressure to conform to a certain narrow box or set - which is what gender roles ARE. If that makes sense?


message 31: by Gerd (new)

Gerd | 428 comments Pam wrote: "Please forgive me, but I do not understand.

If there are no gender roles, would we have such words like feminine or masculine?"


I don't quite see why not, even if we got rid of "gender role" we couldn't get rid of gender. There will always be a visible physical difference between the sexes.


message 32: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Gerd wrote: "Pam wrote: "Please forgive me, but I do not understand.

If there are no gender roles, would we have such words like feminine or masculine?"

I don't quite see why not, even if we got rid of "gend..."


That and I'd argue that feminine traits are most likely found in women, and masculine traits in men.


message 33: by Indigo (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Gerd wrote: "Pam wrote: "Please forgive me, but I do not understand.

If there are no gender roles, would we have such words like feminine or masculine?"

I don't quite see why not, even if we got rid of "gend..."


And there'll ALWAYS be a difference in how you prefer to be seen, addressed, expressed, and related to.

There's always a difference in how you experience gender as well, even if it's internally felt and not externally measured. An agender person is going to perceive their gender differently than a pangender person. A man generally is going to feel better being referred to as "he/him/his" and "sir/mister" while a woman is generally going to feel better being referred to as "she/her/hers" and "ma'am/miss" and there are indeed people who generally feel better being referred to as "they/them/their" and "mx." (mix)

Just because they have no biological underpinnings doesn't mean that those people's preferences and enjoyment of being referred to as one way instead of another is somehow "invalid."

Even then, the "two biological sexes" you're thinking of? Nah, there's a ton of variations there where there are people who have XY but appear visibly female (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome as one possibility) and internal testes but external vagina. Where you have XX but have a lot of what we would call "male" characteristics (PCOS for one example) in terms of excess hair growth, deeper voice, more muscle tone and easy weight gain, acne problems, etc. on top of the sucky cysts and unpredictable and irregular (heavy or very light) periods. Not to mention all the other variations in intersex and even in our "socially accepted and defined binary sexes" and even the historical record for more than just two accepted sexes in many different communities around the world (despite the white European invaders doing their goddamn best to destroy and forcibly eradicate all evidence to the contrary).

You can even argue that the water gets too murky in the sex of the body department for it to be THAT clear-cut and obvious, so "why shouldn't we get rid of sex too?"

But here's the thing... getting rid of any and all sex terms doesn't change the fact that someone has a vagina that needs a certain kind of care, and someone else has a penis that needs a certain other kind of care. It does allow for trans men (hi! *waves) to get care for their vaginas without being stigmatized for having what seems at first "incongruous body parts" for our gender. And trans women for getting care for their penises without having that discredit or devalue their own gender.

So why keep sex and gender, but abolish gender roles and narrow boxes for sex and gender?

Because we're not trying to erase the whole thing entirely and start from scratch. People strongly feel the way they do for a reason. There was a study on a poor twin who had his penis cut off in a botched circumcision and was forced to be raised as a girl to see if social conditioning was all that was needed to circumvent the sex of the body.

Despite what the corrupt and abusive doctor proclaimed in his study results, David Reimer (the twin in question) revealed the truth that he had terrible dysphoria and suicidal urges from being devalued and discredited all his life and forced to be something he's not. He revealed this before his suicide on May 4, 2004 at the age of 38 years old.

If you want to claim that there is "no such thing as gender" (and conflate it with gender roles as I'm trying to outline and specify the difference that lies between) then do you really want to deny the fact that David Reimer clearly stated what his gender was and that being raised counter to that caused him such psychological distress as to be one of the factors that lead to his suicide?

Leelah Alcorn also committed suicide in 2014 due to her family and community staunchly denying her gender and refusing to support her. (They deadnamed her and refused to use her chosen pronouns even AFTER her death and tried their best to erase every goddamn bit of evidence of her real gender from the internet and records.)

Transgender people have one of the highest rates of suicide in the country of any group (POC trans people especially high) and if they are forced to deal with a very unaccepting family and community, then their chances of suicide shoot up to almost 50%, while if they have an accepting and supportive family and community, then their chances of suicide drop 50% to a very low number (sources: https://thinkprogress.org/no-high-sui... and http://www.torontosun.com/2015/06/08/... )

This is more to let you know that there is indeed a group of people with a strong sense of gender. To undervalue that or dismiss it, is in turn a transphobic act in this society because we all live in a binary world that is still very intolerant against trans and nonbinary people. A world where we are dismissed and undervalued for our gender every day. Cisgender people get their gender respected, no questions asked. Transgender and nonbinary people get gender "identities" and have to insist upon our "preferred" pronouns and keep insisting upon that despite the cisgender people's surprising reluctance to change (no matter that if someone misgenders your dog or baby and you correct them, they immediately rectify their mistake...)

So I would say, there is indeed a thing called gender. It's just the roles in particular that are not something we really need to have around anymore. The roles being a certain set of behavior that one must engage in or face ostracization and denial, exile or even forcible punishment and threat of death.

So of course there's going to be gender and sex in this idealized world if one abolished the roles. There just wouldn't be an insistence on ONLY performing your gender in a certain strict and regimented fashion, or facing great punishment for the perceived "transgressions."

Does it make more sense now?


message 34: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Indigo wrote: "Gerd wrote: "Pam wrote: "Please forgive me, but I do not understand.

If there are no gender roles, would we have such words like feminine or masculine?"

I don't quite see why not, even if we got..."


The John/Joan case is so important, because it shows exactly how gender is innate, and not trained. When I first read about it I cried, because it was so wrong to do that in the first place.
Intersex people also have very high suicide rates, sex and gender is simply a matter not to mess with.


message 35: by Theo (new)

Theo | 2 comments They wouldn't say they are trans and identify as trans because that wouldn't exist, but they might still feel like it.


message 36: by Indigo (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Theo wrote: "They wouldn't say they are trans and identify as trans because that wouldn't exist, but they might still feel like it."

If I understand right what you said, it's basically this...?

That the whole having to fight to get your gender acknowledged wouldn't be a problem anymore, for you could proclaim what your gender truly is and have people just accept you on the spot like any cisgender person currently enjoys. That you wouldn't be forced into one of two restricted boxes from birth and left to find out what really works best for you in terms of your gender and address and expression and all.

Then yes, there wouldn't be the adjective trans in that sense of the word.

But there would be the adjective transgender in the sense of needing to transition from what your body makes you do (in one certain version of puberty and effects of hormones) to another path where the effects of the hormones is more in alignment with what your gender really is. Until we get the ability to wave our hands and change our bodies in a snap of the fingers, there's still going to be a tedious and drawn-out process of trying to figure out which medical paths are right for you and then pursuing them. Such as the length of time it takes for the hormones effects to really kick in. Not to mention the after-care from surgery and the wait for the scars to heal.

Just like any group that has to undergo surgery or a long medical procedure to alter their body in such a way that it is more comfortable and safer for them to live in it, there would still be a group popping up that meets to discuss the process and vent about their frustrations and celebrate their achievements. Just like amputees today, or heart-valve replacements or so on.

It would be a more medically focused group, with advice given about how to live one's life and deal with the side-effects of hormones and/or surgery as needed.

So yes, we'd still be here. Our group would still be here. Smaller yes, since not every trans and nonbinary person actually WANTS surgery or hormones. A good number of them don't, even if they did have the money and services in place to afford it.

The focus of our group might be different. But we'd still be here, and the adjective transgender might take on a bit of a new meaning and definition.


message 37: by Pam (last edited Apr 19, 2017 03:33PM) (new)

Pam | 1086 comments Mod
Indigo wrote: "Just because none of those are tied to any particular gender roles doesn't mean they get all abolished because of that. They're still there and will still be there. And different cultures will still interpret the same color and label differently, due to their individual history and environment?"

Hmm. I suppose I need more context. Again, please forgive me. I am not trying to dismiss your insights or the reality faced by David Reimer, Leelah Alcorn, or others experiencing disphoria. I suppose I am trying to understand your world without gender roles.

Maybe I have read to many science fiction novels in the sense that in 50 years you will most definitely still see the same society as today. Rules that guide us now, even with laws and social mores in place.

But 200 years? A thousand years from now... would this still be a thing.

For example.... let's say that we live in a world where it is all "online" and it's all a virtual reality. Like a nicer version of the Matrix where your "body" is a pod somewhere and your mind is in a completely self contained world all of your making. You can interact with others or filter them out as needed.

So in this world where your mind and conscious determines what is allowed and not allowed, would gender roles still exist? In this world, removed completely from social expectations and physical demands where you could be and look however you wanted to be or look where everything is accepted because it is your utopia - remembering of course that you can specifically program out haters or those who differ from your world view..would gender roles exist?

Would disphoria still be a thing? Would the term feminism or masculine still exist or would they be as meaningless to you as a internet password is to an ant?

If the entire world agreed tomorrow that there is no such thing as a boy or a girl would we still have the concept of boy and girl 200 years or 1000 years later?


message 38: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Pam wrote: "Indigo wrote: "Just because none of those are tied to any particular gender roles doesn't mean they get all abolished because of that. They're still there and will still be there. And different cul..."

Hm Pam, I'd like to write an answer to both your and Indigo's post.

I totally agree with what Indigo said, but while he looks at a world where physical appearance still matters, you don't, Pam.

I still think that physical appearance would matter, even in a world where it doesn't really. We have an innate feeling of who we are, man or woman, or otherwise. We "know" both our sex and gender. I doubt that everyone will suddenly have a different avatar than male and female or inbetween. I doubt that feminine and masculine would vanish, they would adapt, for sure, but not vanish.
I believe that a world where you can filter out everyone who you don't like, or don't share an opinion with, is very dangerous. Because we need to work together, and not close our doors and not speak with each other.

So, I doubt that an "online" version of our life would solve the problem, because gender is innate, and sex is a very strong marker. Change would happen, but not as much as this.

As a closing point, I'd like to say that a world like the one described by Indigo is the world I want to be in. No harm against intersex and trans people, one can conclude that this society is way more inclusive and acknowledging and respectful than now.


message 39: by Indigo (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments MeerderWörter wrote: "Pam wrote: "Indigo wrote: "Just because none of those are tied to any particular gender roles doesn't mean they get all abolished because of that. They're still there and will still be there. And d..."

Very good points there Meerder!

For example: A truly post-racist world (we are not there by any stretch of the imagination) would acknowledge and accept everybody's skin colors, culture, ethnicity, and embrace that diversity. We would still have words for those appearance and differences, we would still use those words, but hopefully they would be far less problematic than the ones we use today. We would - instead of shunning or playing off those differences as "trivial" - embrace them and celebrate them and include them and have full acceptance and respect for them.

That's similar to what I'm thinking of for a world with no gender roles, but that still has gender and sex, sexuality and romantic orientations. That still had bodies that have bodily needs which need to be cared for. That still had us interacting with each other via our bodies at least some of the time.

Such a world is more likely to come by sooner in the future than the one that Pam described. For it may take a lot of time and resources to really figure out how to keep consciousness completely within a computer or computer-like structure and have no physical body needs at all.

But hopefully it wouldn't take nearly so long or as much resources to actually learn how to be more accepting, welcoming, inclusive, and respectful of each other while we all still deal with our human body limitations.

So that is my dream.

...I could go on really with how we do have virtual worlds even today (such as Second Life), but most still play out fantasies of their ideal bodies and lives, with purely human forms, a limited palate of skin tones and features, and limited body part differences. Some break the mold and take on animal and mythological forms, different skin, hair, and eye colors, or even different body parts than one would ever see upon a human (even with accounting for the current or near-future levels and skill of surgery and augmentation). But most do play it very conservative and stick to what they know as humans. With all that possibility before them, they still stick with known norms of humanity and bodies that they are comfortable with.

And with the chance to really experiment with new forms of society now that they're removed from a lot of their previous limitations.... the players still by and large saw fit to replicate and keep using their old societal patterns. It took a hellava lot for even the avant-garde species-changer players to dare change or challenge accepted societal norms of behavior engrained in them (like sexism, racism, classism, ableism, LGBT+ and MOGAI-phobia, and so on.) It was remarkably static and stale compared to what could've been; a fact that was noted by the social scientists of the time.

So even in your ideal future Pam, it may take longer than you think for humans to really break out of that mold and accept the new and unconventional, instead of simply rehashing the still flawed (and hateful in all its macro and microaggressions) world we have to live in today.

Why not try to correct that in the world we must deal with for the time being, in bodies we must confront and live with, so that when we do come to your future, then we won't have as much holding us back from really playing with those possibilities? Just a thought.


message 40: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1086 comments Mod
Indigo wrote: "...I could go on really with how we do have virtual worlds even today (such as Second Life), but most still play out fantasies of their ideal bodies and lives, with purely human forms, a limited palate of skin tones and features, and limited body part differences.

And with the chance to really experiment with new forms of society now that they're removed from a lot of their previous limitations.... the players still by and large saw fit to replicate and keep using their old societal patterns"


I understand your point. But I would also remind you that a) technology being as it is currently that we replicate ourselves based on what the programmers provide. b) we are still living the first generation of computer programming. i.e. computer users are still in our infancy. Who knows what will develop with our voices clamoring for different realities where we can challenge the norms from the previous generations. This of course starts to derail the conversation.

Indego wrote "Why not try to correct that in the world we must deal with for the time being, in bodies we must confront and live with, so that when we do come to your future, then we won't have as much holding us back from really playing with those possibilities?"

Absolutely agree. Again, I think I was getting hung up on why if do we still care about something that is only constant by today's standards. In the future, we create those standards. I think anything is possible with a set number of generations. Because society shifts due to technology, social pressures, and other external factors. We today cannot perceive these changes as individuals because there are thinkers out there who are still dreaming it up. And our children have not yet grown up who grew up with the new factors let alone our grandchildren hearing stories of yester years.

So if we abolished gender roles, whose to say that we also don't abolish dysphoria?

Society at large would not jam a soul into a set label. I assume then physical dysphoria would be similar to that of puberty. The person would undergo a process and people would just accept it that its happening. Hormone supplements could be purchased next to hair dye and vitamins at a drug store, for example. Surgery would be as common if not with a more favorable opinion than that of plastic surgery.

So where social and physical dysphoria not present because gender roles are long gone and our civilization is not burdened by the simplicity of our 21st century silliness... would trans-people still be around?

I assume the use of the prefix is used to honor your journey. To honor those who have come before and will come after. And more so, to make sure their is a community and awareness around the topic. Please correct me if not.

But if changing your physical gender is as accepted as puberty (for example) would there still be a need for that community?


message 41: by Indigo (last edited Apr 21, 2017 02:58AM) (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Pam wrote: "Indigo wrote: "...I could go on really with how we do have virtual worlds even today (such as Second Life), but most still play out fantasies of their ideal bodies and lives, with purely human form..."

Good points. I do want to bring up something though.

We have the technology and surgery today to make all deaf and hard of hearing people approximate some hearing (though nothing like hearing people can get). However, there's a thriving community of Deaf people (capitalized D indicates you're part of this community while a lower-case d just means you have moderate to profound hearing loss, so basically mostly can't hear to entirely can't hear) despite this.

The Deaf community prides itself on keeping its culture alive of its own signed language (different grammar and word order than spoken English so it's an entirely different language with its own customs and rules), through members who either have not ever gotten surgery or had speech training, or have gotten surgery and/or speech training but elected not to use their cochlear implants, hearing aids, or other assisted hearing devices. They usually do not speak or make verbal sound though most of them are capable of that. They have a long history, having formed around sign language and ASL in America has been around since 1817 when French Signed Language was brought over by Thomas Gallaudet who formed the first school for the deaf in Hartford, Connecticut. No doubt there were variations of signed language before then, but the French-based signed language became the official one and taught to all deaf people who had a chance to learn and then passed on.

Helen Keller learned her manual alphabet (a form of ASL done into a person's hand so that they can feel the shapes change and read it that way) from Anne Sullivan, her mentor, who had originally learned it from Laura Bridgman the first blind and deaf graduate of Perkins School for the Blind.

Despite hearing and seeing people's claims that surgery would wipe out and render "non-existent" those communities... guess what! They're still here.

The popularity of learning ASL testifies to this fact and actually allows the Deaf people to integrate further into the wider world and not be as isolated as they were before. There are more ways to include someone than assume that surgery and technology would "erase every single last difference between the person and the wider accepted world."

Even if the process for transgender people to get the body they need becomes as common and easy as going through puberty is (oh fucking gods do I wish), there would still be a community forming around the process since cisgender people would not need to go through this nor care to do so. I'm chronically ill and disabled and have seen many many communities pop up for all different things, simply to give those who have to deal with this sort of unusual experience (even if accepted by the wider group of people or general society at that time) a sense of solidarity and a feeling of belonging.

I know you are arguing from the position that if we had the right technology and tools, then why would we even have this be a concern or an issue in the first place? When it's easily fixed and readily solved and then just done away with.

I am arguing from the position of humans are inherently social species. We form groups even around traits that do not harm us, benefit us, and are a common shared experience (artists, actors, athletes, engineers, biologists, botanists, archeologists, hobbyist clubs, favorite fandoms of this or that, and so on). My case is that the human tendency to form groups around this would continue to be so strong that even with mainstreamed and very effective technology to reduce the pain of transition or the effect of dysphoria, that there would still be people forming that group around that process and still using the label or something like it to rally around.

No there may not be as much of a need to hold that label tightly as we do now, in direct opposition to the wider and unforgiving world. But there will still be a desire to band together with others who have similar traits or a similar experience and use that trait/experience as one of your calling cards or mark of identity. We see it all the time with benign and positive situations, as well as destructive and terrible situations, and everything in between. We have that craving as the human species to bond with others similar to us and band together, since we're inherently a very social species.

So that would never truly go away. Just change form and shape.

And as long as people are compelled to bond with others over similar traits and experiences, then yes there is a need for that community and label, even if it's not a desperate one like today. Even if it's just want-based in terms of finding others like you, it is still connected to the all-too human need and compulsion to belong and find others like you. So yes, I would argue from that vantage point that yes indeed we'd still need it. Just would need it in a different way.

Does that make sense?


message 42: by Pam (last edited Apr 21, 2017 09:21AM) (new)

Pam | 1086 comments Mod
Yes.

So to summarize: if society abolished gender roles trans people would still be around as a community.

We, as a society and species, may progress to the point where social dysphoria and physically dysphoria are no longer an issue. But the population that endured these will still band together and self identify as Trans.


message 43: by Indigo (new)

Indigo (indigo_denovan) | 96 comments Pam wrote: "So to summarize: if society abolished gender roles trans people would still be around as a community."

Exactly. :)

I'm glad we're both on the same page now!


message 44: by Tadej (new)

Tadej Brunšek (tad3j) | 145 comments The question is in the place, but we can also take another path, how society will benefit from it. In the primary society, there were only people who were same sex oriented but there was none homosexual (those two definitions are different) and none trans people.

But for that, it is not enough that we abolish gender roles, but we have to make majority of people understand the difference between us, remove the hate any idealisation about gender, ... so to speak, find a formula which can exactly explain human behaviour.


message 45: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Tadej wrote: "The question is in the place, but we can also take another path, how society will benefit from it. In the primary society, there were only people who were same sex oriented but there was none homos..."

That, dear Tadej, is impossible. Generations of sociologists have tried that, in vain.


message 46: by Ross (last edited Apr 24, 2017 05:33AM) (new)

Ross | 1444 comments Perhaps we do not need to abandon gender roles if the change is to great for humanity at the moment. If we make them a equal choice pick a role and identify with that.

Equality between genders would allow for roles to exists with out the favor of one over the other. People could pick the one best suited.

Also if there were gender equality gender selection would just be matter of choice how you got there would be of no consequence and not effect your life choices, career prospects for example.


message 47: by Tadej (new)

Tadej Brunšek (tad3j) | 145 comments MeerderWörter wrote: "Tadej wrote: "The question is in the place, but we can also take another path, how society will benefit from it. In the primary society, there were only people who were same sex oriented but there ..."

Maybe they "tried", maybe they don't have enough knowledge. But with the theory recently discovered, ... it is possible ;)


message 48: by David (new)

David B. | 11 comments Indigo wrote: "...out of fear that cis people would misgender me as a woman when I am not, based on my body shape, and then threaten me with rape, violence, or even death for my non-conformity."

I would recommend doing it anyway. When it comes down to it, that's how stuff like this gets around. People doing it regardless of what people think. Girls used to not wear pants, then one girl wore pants regardless of how peopled thought of her, then another girl wore pants, then another, and now it's commonplace.

I'm not sure what things are like where you are or how people will react, but if you're really that concerned, taking up a martial arts class for self defense might help. When it comes down to it, if you're not you, then who are you?

I agree with your opinion on gender dysphoria, though I am a bit confused as to why you asked the question just to answer it.


message 49: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments To read this topic with all its mutual respect and understanding feels so great!

It's somewhat sad that there isn't any talk in here anymore, but it just feels so great to read this topic!


message 50: by Pam (new)

Pam | 1086 comments Mod
Indigo, come back we miss you!


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