Terminalcoffee discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Feeling Nostalgic? The archives
>
Blasphemy!
Mod
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. As I said, I've seen Alice in Chains live, and they are in no way better musicians than Nirvana. Their sound is muddled, they played the same chords in most songs, and most of their lyrics are/were banal.
Nope, not better.
Did little ole me start this melee? Big ruckus for such a little comment...The Ramones were also underrated, as you "walk onto the street and ask 20 people" - few of them will be able to tell you the name of a Ramones song. But if you play one, probably just about any single they published, 19 of 20 will know the song.
The Stones is considered by some to be the greatest rock band of all time, but so is Queen, so is The Eagles, so is Zeppelin, so is Aerosmith, and the list goes on... There are no absolutes, there are only opinions and preferences. Ergo, there is no right or wrong.
I DON'T LIKE STEPHEN COLBERT. I'll always have some respect for him for the way he satired in Bush's face at the White House Correspondents Dinner, but he is not that funny anymore. And his gag-reporters? Are uncomfortably obnoxious. Also? I think if you're going to come to America (legally, illegally -- no major qualms about that... or if there are, I'm less blasphemously assertive on my views) -- if you're going to come to America, it's important to learn English, I think. I think. I mean, if you can get by without, okay, but I don't think we should demand to be understood by the general populace in other languages.... Like call the government racist if the citizenship test happens to be in English... Um.
If you ask me on the streets of Berkeley, I'll lie or evade and run away. But I think this way.
Oh I most definitely agree. Is that not PC? Oh well. I mean if I were to move to France or Italy or Japan, of course I'd learn the language!
Wingedbeaver wrote: "From a musical point of view Alice In Chains wrote more complex songs, they experimented with harmony (something not used much if at all in their genre), they toyed with song structure, they used l..."I disagree completely, esp. in light of the fact that these bands were emerging from the punk/post-punk tradition in which making a song more complex wasn't necessary the goal and added complexity doesn't necessarily equal talent. I'll leave that up to Yes and Emerson, Lake and Palmer. I see Nirvana's power as closer to the Ramones/Husker Du tradition, esp. in the connection of direct, unadorned music to the symbolic demise of hair metal.
Randomanthony wrote: "Wingedbeaver wrote: "From a musical point of view Alice In Chains wrote more complex songs, they experimented with harmony (something not used much if at all in their genre), they toyed with song s..."We agree to disagree on Alice In Chains (yes complex doesn't always equal talent but in this case it did), but I'm not sure where we differ on Nirvana. I agree that their power is in the Ramones tradition but I've never met anyone who tried to argue that the Ramones were talented musicans. As one of my friends but it, Nirvana were the Sex Pistols of their generation, struck a chord socially but couldn't tell you how to strike a chord musically.
(Which isn't totally true since we have to come to find out that Dave Grohl is a genius)
Interestingly enough I once heard Little Steven once describe the difference between the Beatles and the Stones. When heard the Beatles you were blown away, everything they did was so precise and perfect and advanced. Listening to them put you in awe. But when you heard the Stones it was so dirty and sloppy. It made you think, hey, I can do that. I think that's the effect Nirvana had.
Sally, live isn't the best to judge rock music. Venue to venue can effect the sound. The muddled sound you heard could have been from a bad sound guy or a poor sound system. Also, I doubt they ever played a show in their prime sober. I know you could say the same about recorded, they could add effects, but remember they recorded before pro tools.
Mod
Mod
This seems like a direct contradiction of your third paragraph.
But I'm in a bad, bad mood right now so I'm going to stop arguing this with you.
I will agree with the premise that music preferences are subjective. You can't argue someone into liking a band they don't like. Too bad! ;)
Mod
Thanks, Bun. *tucks wrath under tablecloth*
Yes, I think we're on the same page with Nirvana, WB. And I'm good with agreein' to disagree, good call.
Live IS the best method of judging a band/artist/musicians raw talent. If they can't produce that sound live, if it is only filtered or manipulated through studio effects, then they are less talented by far. Crap live, good albums = a marketing ploy of a band.
This may be true for some bands, maybe, but not all. What about music that doesn't necessarily lend itself to live music, e.g. Kraftwerk? I think the "live" experience and the "recorded" experience are apples and oranges, if you will.
Mod
Good thing I'm going to Phish tomorrow.
Seeing bands live can be a crapshoot. Sometimes the band is just ON, and the whole venue comes alive with energy you don't get from an album. There is nothing better in the world than a concert with that ENERGY.But other times, the band may be worn out from touring, fighting colds, and are phoning it in. Or as WB said, the venue has lousy acoustics and a poor electronics.
Or it's Dylan, and you never know WHAT you're going to get.
Mod
It's still a venue, still the best venue, still highly sought venue for the best bands. Can't wait.
Sally wrote: "I'm probably not even making sense. Sorry WB, I'm sure you are more coherent than I. To be honest, I think that musical taste is as arbitrary as different gastronomical taste. Potato, pohtahto, ..."I agree for the most part about live music, but rock is a different beast. I've seen bands multiple times, at different venues and one time the band will sound great and the other horrible. Sometimes they have a bad day, sometimes they are so high on smack or drunk on Jack that they can't walk on stage forget about play an instrument, sometimes the sound guy sucks and ruins the mix, some times the acoustics in the room aren't good for the music being played. I'm sure they were horrible when you saw them but I'm not convinced that determines their talent.
And I'm not sure how you think I contradicted myself.
And don't be sorry, I enjoy a good music debate
Wasn't it Keith Richard who said something like "On any given night any band can be the best rock and roll band in the world"?
Mod
Steely Dan is excellent live, by the way... ;)
Jackie "the Librarian" wrote: "Steely Dan is excellent live, by the way... ;)"Don't forget the prepositional phrase, "if you need something for when you can't sleep."
:)
Mod
Yes, you have, Sally. On my shebangs! On the latest one, there's "Don't Take Me Alive" which I love despite the fact that Donald Fagen doesn't know how to say Oregon correctly.
Wow, looks like I missed a great debate...I agree that what makes music great to the masses is subjective, however, like writing, there are measures for greatness.
Heavy metal for instance is unbelievably complex. I've been playing guitar for nearly a decade and have been playing drums for a few years, but there are many metal songs I couldn't even dream of playing. Do I enjoy metal? No. Do I think they are wickedly talented musicians that have mastered their craft? Yes.
Are there several musicians mentioned in this debate that were once masters of their craft? I'm sure there are, but many have been knocked from the pedestal.
The stones may have once been rock gods, but their lyrics don't resonate with me and I can play their songs with my eyes closed, literally, therefore, I do not enjoy their music. I have found newer bands who I feel say what the stones were attempting to convey, better and play with more talent.
So all that to say, I judge musical talent based on lyrics and instrumentation, not on how much I like the band. A band can be incredibly talented but underrated because musically, it doesn't appeal and vice versa.
That is all. :)
Oh, on Nirvana...I would have to argue that Kurt Cobain was a bit of a genius lyrically speaking. He struck a cord in a generation and has yet to be usurped, so I feel as though he deserves any accolade he has been given. Until a musician or band can trump Nirvana, they've earned their title as reigning champs of a generation as very few bands can say they started a movement musically speaking, many just follow a trend.
Whoaho. I think it's pretty hard to rationalize the idea that Nirvana started anything. Please explain. Even Nirvana admitted they borrowed the "quiet loud quiet" pattern from bands like the Pixies.
You didnt' miss the debate, Heather!Complexity does not always equal good. Just because music is easy to play does not mean it's bad.
It's not just about tricky chording, complex time signatures, and hard to reach notes. Sometimes those can combine into something genius and wonderful, but that doesn't mean simple tunes aren't as good.
Otherwise, no one would like the Ramones. Or "Louis Louis".
As for the Stones, perhaps their guitar lines are simple, which makes sense, as they base their music on the blues, which has a basic structure, but the riffs are genius. And have you listened to the drumming?
And any band where the guys are willing to sing "Whoo whoo!" over and over with complete seriousness are winners in my book.
The Stones are completely successful at what they're trying to do - create the best down and dirty rock and roll with roots in the blues that they can. Think bar band, not concert hall.
:::goes off to dance about architecture:::
Instrumentally, I would agree, lyrically, I would not. Smells like Team spirit is the anthem of a generation. Those lyrics belong to Kurt and he ignited the grunge movement.
Mod
The Stones have some of THE most recognizeable guitar riffs in music history. A few chords and "Oh, that's Honky Tonk Women" or "Sympathy for the Devil" or "Miss You."
Mod
Barf. He was pretty good, in my eyes, but I wouldn't call him a poet. But I wouldn't call Jim Morrison a poet, either.In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of a rock lyricist I would call a poet. Leonard Cohen. But he's a real poet. Tom Waits, who is already controversial. Ian Curtis. I imagine there are more.
Depends on what you mean by "ignited", Heather, but I would agree he was part of the product who popularized the "grunge" thing at that point in time.
Nirvana captured the zeitgeist. They WERE the band of the grunge 90s, and epitomized the teen malaise of those years. I found myself liking them despite myself.They may have been grunge, but their music lasts because their melodies were actually really good, and the lyrics (No Apologies) resonated, and still do with disaffected teens.
Their Unplugged set revealed just how good they really were, even without the loud guitars.
I think if you were a nerdy music fan at the time you probably were aware of a lot of bands from that period and before who were arguably just as good or better than Nirvana but didn't get popular for whatever reason. What was great about Nirvana, I agree, is that there was this pent up desire for that type of music and "Smells Like Team Spirit" helped ignite (to use Heather's word) that fuse. But...I know this is going to sound snotty...if you were only following music at that time superficially you could easily miss all the other great bands from that stretch who didn't get as much press and the like.
Mod
The Guess Who? Dylan? The Beatles? Jack Kerouack?
Where can we draw the line between poet and musician? Is there a line?
For me the line is "do their words work as well on the page without the music?"I would add Nick Cave to the list of poets.
Mod
I'd like to Add TS Eliot. I can always think of an appropriate quote from either The Wasteland, or Prufrock.
Hmm, perhaps I should re-phrase. I wasn't implying that if a bands instrumentation is easy that the band is bad, or vice versa. Rather I was saying that if a band is going to be called talented or untalented they should lack skills lyrically or instrumentally or posses them. It should not be based on whether or not you liked the bands music.For instance, I can listen to and enjoy mainstream music, but there is no way I would say that many of them are talented, as they are not.
Kurt is a poet, so sad RA doesn’t know it! ;)
Not all poets are musicians, and not all musicians are poets. But yes, songwriters are poets, but they aren't always GOOD poets.
Randomanthony wrote: "In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of a rock lyricist I would call a poet. Leonard Cohen. But he's a real poet. Tom Waits, who is already controversial. Ian Curtis. I imagine there are more."I'm with you on this point. Jim Morrison wrote while he was tripping and Kurt Cobain wrote while high as a kite on heroin - certainly made for intriguing lyrics. Don't get me wrong, I love Nirvana - and I'd rock out to misheard lyrics with them all day long when I was in college (misheard because I'd make up the words as I'd sing along because I could never understand sh*t that Cobain was singing, but I loved it anyway).
As for raw intrinsic talent in writing, Cohen takes the cake, but I'd consider him a folk artist more than a rock artist, even though he's been covered by most rockbands than not.
Waits, Costello, Peter Gabriel, Plant & Page, Townsend, Ferrell, Bono, Prince, Bowie earn rock accolades, too. IMHO, the folk writers are typically the best lyricists - Dylan (although he seemed a crossbreed between rock & folk) and Simon & Garfunkel are great examples. Newer folk lyricists/artists I enjoy - Ben Harper, Natalie Merchant, Carla Bruni (amazing lyrics), Damien Rice, Ani DiFranco, Eddie Vedder (I did a presentation on music as a venue for public speaking, specifically using Vedder's lyrics as examples in my speech when I was in History of Public Speaking in college), Brandi Carlile...
Wasn't Alice In Chains largely responsible for "drop D bass"? A friend of mine, a musician said they were the first mainstreamers to use it as a signature sound.
Mod
Yes, there might be some generational factors involved. I was about twenty-one when Nirvana hit the big time and I was way deep into music then...I was in college radio at the time they blew up. They were just one of many bands around then for me...the one that got on the radio and got the most popular, for a short time, but only part of a big musical picture. I mean, for example, My Bloody Valentine's Loveless came out that year...among many other great records of the time...that I consider light years better Nevermind.
I ignored Nirvana and grunge when it first came out. I was avoiding the radio because it was nothing but rap and country and Mariah Carey for awhile. :(I was sooo glad when "alternative" music hit the scene.
Load up on guns Bring your friends
It's fun to lose and to pretend
She's overborne and self-assured
Oh no, I know a dirty word
Chorus-
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello ,hello
With the Lights out it's less dangerous
Here we are now entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now entertain us
A mullato an albino
A mosquito my libido
yay
Verse 2-
I'm worse at what I do best
And for this gift I feel blessed
Our little group has always been
And always will until the end
Chorus-
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello
With the Lights out it's less dangerous
Here we are now entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now entertain us
A mullato an albino
A mosquito my libido
yay
Bridge-
Verse 3-
And I forget just why I taste
Oh yeah I guess it makes me smile
I found it hard it's hard to find
Oh well whatever nevermind
Chorus-
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello
With the Lights out it's less dangerous
Here we are now entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now entertain us
A mullato an albino
A mosquito my libido
A denial
IMO, that's good poetry....
RA, you kinda made my point for me. I know there were bands similar to Nirvana, but Nirvana is the first band of any generation to give a voice to teen malaise as Jackie put it. John Lennon wrote for the everyman, as did most lyricists up until Kurt Cobain. Kurt didn't just ignite a fuse waiting to be lit, his words made a generation take notice that there was a fuse waiting to be lit.
AHHHHHH! I disagree with your last paragraph completely, Heather. I could list more bands that I could count that "gave a voice to teen malaise" and, in my eyes, ten times better than Cobain and Nirvana. Three of the best, in my eyes...The Replacements, Ramones, and Husker Du (all influences on Nirvana, by the way)...lyrics to follow...
Smells Like NirvanaWhat is this song all about?
Cant figure any lyrics out
How do the words to it go?
I wish youd tell me, I dont know
Dont know, dont know, dont know, oh no
Dont know, dont know, dont know...
Now Im mumblin and Im screamin
And I dont know what Im singin
Crank the volume, ears are bleedin
I still dont know what Im singin
Were so loud and incoherent
Boy, this oughta bug your parents
Yeah
Its unintel-ligible
I just cant get it through my skull
Its hard to bargle nawdle zouss(? )
With all these marbles in my mouth
Dont know, dont know, dont know, oh no
Dont know, dont know, dont know...
Well, we dont sound like madonna
Here we are now, were nirvana
Sing distinctly? we dont wanna
Buy our album, were nirvana
A garage band from seattle
Well, it sure beats raising cattle
Yeah
And I forgot the next verse
Oh well, I guess it pays to rehearse
The lyric sheets so hard to find
What are the words? oh, nevermind
Dont know, dont know, dont know, oh no
Dont know, dont know, dont know...
Well, Im yellin and were playin
But I dont know what Im sayin
Whats the message Im conveyin?
Can you tell me what Im sayin?
So have you got some idea?
Didnt think so -- well, Ill see ya
Sayonara, sayonara
Ayonawa, odinawa
Odinaya, yodinaya
Yaddayadda, yaaahyaaah
Ayaaaaaah!
- Weird Al Yankovic
Replacements-Bastards of YoungGod, what a mess, on the ladder of success
Where you take one step and miss the whole first rung
Dreams unfulfilled, graduate unskilled
It beats pickin' cotton and waitin' to be forgotten
We are the sons of no one, bastards of young
We are the sons of no one, bastards of young
The daughters and the sons
Clean your baby womb, trash that baby boom
Elvis in the ground, there'll ain't no beer tonight
Income tax deduction, what a hell of a function
It beats pickin' cotton and waitin' to be forgotten
We are the sons of no one, bastards of young
We are the sons of no one, bastards of young
The daughters and the sons
Unwillingness to claim us, ya got no word (war?) to name us
The ones who love us best are the ones we'll lay to rest
And visit their graves on holidays at best
The ones who love us least are the ones we'll die to please
If it's any consolation, I don't begin to understand them
We are the sons of no one, bastards of young
We are the sons of no one, bastards of young
The daughters and the sons
Young...take it, it's yours...
How could I forget The Clash, by the way? The Clash...oh, the lovely Clash.
Randomanthony wrote: "AHHHHHH! I disagree with your last paragraph completely, Heather. I could list more bands that I could count that "gave a voice to teen malaise" and, in my eyes, ten times better than Cobain and ..."To you RA, those bands have better lyrics to you. I hear something like Let's Go by the Ramones and it doesn't resonate to the every teen. I'm female, I'm not going to be drafted, and politics isn't really something teens follow. Teens are self involved for the most part, and the Ramones don't capture that pent up teen angst and self loathing, awkwardness, etc. Nor does Husker Du...
Im all lost in the supermarket
I can no longer shop happily
I came in here for that special offer
A guaranteed personality
I wasnt born so much as I fell out
Nobody seemed to notice me
We had a hedge back home in the suburbs
Over which I never could see
I heard the people who lived on the ceiling
Scream and fight most scarily
Hearing that noise was my first ever feeling
Thats how its been all around me
Chorus
Im all tuned in, I see all the programmes
I save coupons from packets of tea
Ive got my giant hit discoteque album
I empty a bottle and I feel a bit free
The kids in the halls and the pipes in the walls
Make me noises for company
Long distance callers make long distance calls
And the silence makes me lonely
Chorus
And its not hear
It disappear
Im all lost
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Terminalcoffee
Books mentioned in this topic
Eat, Pray, Love (other topics)Eat, Pray, Love (other topics)
Eat, Pray, Love (other topics)
The Master and Margarita (other topics)
Well, that might be because the Stones still record, and tour. And they've always generated plenty of publicity. Mick gets knighted, Keith falls out of coconut trees and does cameos in the Pirate movies.
What have the Kinks done, lately?