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General > Trump's going, but where will Trumpism go?

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message 1: by Roger (last edited Oct 19, 2016 08:40AM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments Trumpism Taking Over?
On a previous blog I mentioned I was, I strongly believe, a victim of racist type postings at a site called Lousy Covers by an author named David Drazul of New Podler Reviews. I tried to post a refuting message on Lousy Covers. That message is not appearing, so apparently, it seems, I believe, the site is being run by a fascist/racist moderator.
This brings me to the point of this new message...Fascism 2.0 has been planted on America's shores. Once planted it will grow, like a terminal cancer. Right wingers wish to have us call terrorism Islamic Terrorism. Even more important, in my opinion, is for those of us that believe in the ideals of this government, as imperfect as it has been in the past, justice, liberty, equality, freedom, and respect for all people, to stand up to this movement of bullies rooting itself in our culture. I blame it on Trump's movement. Perhaps it's not all of them, just the ignorant ones, but there seems to be plenty of them, and they seem to be the rank and file of the movement. There are enough ignorant fascists among them for the rest of us to call it what it is, and stand up to it, in my opinion.
In 1932 Chancellor Bruenning was in the lead of a Stop Hitler movement. They, the Social Democrats, were much stronger in numbers than the Nazis, but they were polite where the Nazis were ruthless. They spoke when the Nazis shouted. They held passive meetings as the Nazis rioted. Exasperated, President Hindenberg appointed Hitler second in charge, comparable to our Vice-President. Hindenberg died and Hitler took over, getting rid of democracy and establishing Nazi dictatorship. Passive peaceful Germans were suddenly surprised to learn they no longer lived in a fair country.
Fascism, once rooted does not simply go away. It is a cancer of ignorance that can eat up a proud nation. Remember this and fight them as you can, where you find them, if you love your country and what it could have been, and still can be, a free America with opportunity and justice for all.
The world doesn't need a fascist America. It has enough trouble. Hillary, no matter how corrupt she is, or isn't, is a person. She is not a movement, and if she does have a movement, it's not promoting ignorance and fascism.

What is fascism exactly? I would say that fascism has two components. 1) Selling lies and dressing them up as the truth in order to: 2) destroy a Democratic government, rooted in the ideals and principles of truth, equality, liberty, and justice for all people, with the purpose of establishing autocratic rule, dictatorship. Fascism is usually marked by excessive jingoism and nationalism, which it uses to rally it's believers.

I don't mean to sound like I know everything. If anyone can enlighten me if you think I have it wrong, please do.I guess, if you're white, Christian, and a Republican right wing person, believing that Democrats are too socialistic, then you might think I'm over-reacting. Maybe you think it would be better to have a strong right wing rule, even if it means dismantling some of the Democracy we take for granted, in order to check the rising tide of radical liberalism and save America from the Godless athiests and other anarchists. Make America great again?

-Roger Raffee
(Author of Devil Out Of Texas)

message 2: by Laureen (last edited Oct 20, 2016 04:00PM) (new)

Laureen (laureenandersonswfcomau) | 30 comments Funny thing is Roger, I believe in all the things You claim to believe in but I am moderately right wing. I don't trust Hillary and if I was an American, I think I would give Trump a go. I am tired of all the Political labels. It is time for us to really know the people we vote for and not just believe in the self-interest of others and the media. We have to consider the whole world and the slippery route it is taking.

For that reason, I don't really have the credentials to comment here as I am Australian and don't know enough about American politics or the two candidates left but I think my general comments are fairly universal. Concentrate on Hillary's eyes. They don't match the smile on her face. That says something to me. Trump has a big mouth and says some stupid things but he appears to be a thinker and though untested, he may just have the guts to make a real difference.

message 3: by Tytti (last edited Oct 20, 2016 05:02PM) (new)

Tytti | 7 comments Laureen wrote: "he appears to be a thinker"

Donald Trump a thinker? He has kept it well hidden if that is the case. Most thinkers don't sexually abuse women, blame others for all their failings or act like school bullies and demean or make fun of disabled people, veterans, women, non-white people... I am probably forgotting some group of people. I didn't think that Americans could choose a worse president than Bush 2 but I guess I could be wrong. I live next to Putin's Russia and I am less worried about Putin than what happens if Trump gets elected. Because at least Putin is smart and he probably thinks before he acts. He probably can't be provoked to do stupid things just because someone said something about his small hands on Twitter. I can't understand people who take Trump seriously, he is an idiot who acts like a kid having a temper tantrum when things don't go his way.

message 4: by Laureen (new)

Laureen (laureenandersonswfcomau) | 30 comments OK, I can defer to your knowledge of the man himself. I have read that he has a genius level IQ, I highly educated and very successful. I have also heard that the disrespect for women is fantasy created by Democrats to turn people off Trump. But, as I said above, we can never believe the propaganda put out about by both sides of politics. Trump seems to be in an alien environment dealing with those who have many years experience in American politics.

Trump may not be politically wise but he is no dummy. I still don't trust Hillary. She has said and done some fairly bad stuff too according to the powers that be.

message 5: by Manda (new)

Manda (bookwenchmanda) | 4 comments Laureen wrote: "I have also heard that the disrespect for women is fantasy created by Democrats to turn people off Trump."

You have left me speechless. This is almost as rich as Trump claiming everything, including this election, is rigged against him.

message 6: by Aysha (new)

Aysha | 6 comments The thing is, lots of Americans don't want to vote Hilary but she is a much better choice than Trump. The guy is a bigot who has no idea on how to rule a country. He will be the worst President ever... America is regarded as the most powerful Nation, vote trump and he would destroy you....

message 7: by Tytti (last edited Oct 20, 2016 05:57PM) (new)

Tytti | 7 comments "Highly successful"? I forgot how many bankruptcies he has had. I guess it's easy to be "successful" when you have inherited your extremely rich father. Of course he also changes his mind so many times that no one can tell what his opinion is on any given matter or how he would do any of the things he says he will do, whatever they are at that moment.

But it must be all that talk about "grabbing women's pussies" that is showing his education. And it is always a sign of great intelligence when a man starts kissing women without their permission, even married ones. He just can't help it if he sees a beautiful woman.

message 8: by Laureen (new)

Laureen (laureenandersonswfcomau) | 30 comments OK don't get angry please. I am not even eligible to vote in the USA. I am obviously not as clued up as you guys are. If I am allowed to say that.

message 9: by [deleted user] (new)

I think I need to comment. I am a Canadian who has been living in the US since 2008. I have always admired the American people for their love of their country. My parents left Germany and moved to Canada to make a better life for themselves. They never asked for any handouts and worked hard to make a decent living for themselves and their 2 children. So you could say that my work ethic is deeply rooted. I have given to those in need. I have given several people who found themselves in difficult situations a place to stay until they could get on their feet.
I have been watching the candidates and see how passionate people are about what is happening. I DO NOT appreciate how the Democrats call anyone who doesn't agree with what is going ignorant, deplorable or any of the other childish name calling that is going on. I have been researching all the claims both sides are making and while Trump and Clinton have both lied - the key issues I am concerned with have me favoring Trump.
How can anyone ignore what happened in Benghazi? Clinton deliberately turned her back on the Americans that needed help. If she could do that, then how will she respond in any other crisis?
She is pro choice. After much thought, I need to be pro life. Her arguments about allowing women to abort babies in the last trimester of pregnancy is nothing short of murder. Yes, there are exceptional cases where it could be necessary, but those cases are few and far between. And that should be left with the doctors and the family.
I think we should also consider Russia. Putin is flexing his muscles and the Russian people love him. Putin hates Clinton and Obama. I fear what will happen should Clinton be elected.
Yes, Trump has made mistakes and he has apologized for them. I have been watching these women who are making claims against Trump and if you watch how they behave in front of the cameras, making claims that are years old, I can see how much of an act it all is. I was sexually abused as a child, so do not tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I have forgiven my abuser and I refuse to "call out" that man about it.
Trump is not a career politician like Clinton. Yes, he is brash and arrogant and has made mistakes. But he is intelligent. And for me the biggest thing in his favor is that he LOVES America.
I know I am going to get a lot of backlash for this. However, I refuse to get involved in the name calling that Democrats seem to let themselves get sucked into. I am an intelligent person and even with all the crap that is going on, I honestly and intelligently to become an American citizen.
As for anyone who has to participate in name calling just because there is a difference of opinion, shame on you. Everyone is allowed their opinion and I have mine after much research and thought.

message 10: by Roger (last edited Oct 21, 2016 11:58AM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments Sylvia,

Do you know the history of fascism in the 1920's and 30's? Can you imagine what it must have been like to live in a country taken over by people who thought it was fine to blame the Jews for all the country's problems, and then round them up and send them away?

Can you imagine living in a country where militia's of bullies were allowed to roam the streets and beat up Jews and anyone who didn't agree with them.

Can you imagine what it must have been like to voice a complaint, and find that your neighbors and friends were afraid to acknowledge your concern, and even more afraid to agree with you. And what about the half of the population that agreed with what the fascists were doing, and didn't see anything at all wrong with it?

That's what I fear we have now with the Trump movement, because so often I see people who claim to be thinking human beings defend a man, or even more important, defend a movement, that blames "others" for our problems. A movement that belittles and dehumanizes the people they wish to blame for our problems (international bankers who run the governments, the media who are on HIllary's side, Hillary's friends who protect her in high places, Soros who brainwashes us, Jews who run everything, Mexicans invading our country, inner city populations who want to take and take, other Republicans who are sell-outs to Hillary). A movement that factually lies about their opponents, so often and so loudly that they cloud the questions to such an extent that it is impossible to know what is truth and what is fiction.

Now, let's see, who else engaged in that exact same form of politics almost 100 years ago? Here's a hint, their name starts with an "N" and they took control of Germany in 1933.

What happens to this movement if Trump loses. We can certainly see Trumpism even has its adherents here, among the people who read.

Will they be donning Trump uniforms and organizing 2nd amendment militias? Will they be marching up and down our streets to protest the illegitimate President Hillary, and the Godless communist evil bankers and her supporters of other races that want to destroy white culture? Will they protest the communist evil powers and groups they imagine supports her, like the greedy Mexicans, the brainwashed blacks, the power hungry Jews, and other illuminati power players in the world that approves of her evil, and put her in power?

Is that where we're headed. A fascist half of America that does not understand what fascism is, and can't even see for the life of them that they are fascist followers, or maybe they're OK with it?

message 11: by Roger (last edited Oct 21, 2016 12:23PM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments >>How can anyone ignore what happened in Benghazi? Clinton >>deliberately turned her back on the Americans that needed >>help. If she could do that, then how will she respond in any >>other crisis?

This is just false. There's no evidence Hillary turned her back on the Americans. That's an over-simplification of what happened that night. Also, there have been many attacks on embassies throughout our history, where Americans have died, including the marine barracks in 1983 in Beirut with 241 dead under Ronald Reagan.

This is the first one I can ever recall where the opposition political party tried to make a political issue of a situation where we were attacked. I don't remember Democrats doing that to Bush, even though there were some questions that were raised about how Bush should have known Osama Bin Laden was going to attack. I seem to remember Democrats supporting Bush at the time. Too bad he abused that support to lead us in to Iraq.

There's no evidence Hillary did anything wrong. There's no evidence that she could have personally done more than she did to save lives. No outcome of any hearings proved otherwise. No such a claim was asserted. They did say Ambassador Stevens had requested additional protection, but the State Dept. gets such requests on a regular basis from many embassies, and evaluates those requests according to a certain criterion. Those requests have been made throughout embassy history, and never has a political party tried to make political gains by saying the State Dept. was derelict in it's duty to embassy staff, and there have been many attacks in our history, some against embassies manned with less staff than was requested.

At worst her critics can say she blamed a video on the attack, but there were riots that evening in other parts of the middle east related to that video, so it was plausible at the time that a video incited the attack. No matter how you spin it, she, our Secretary Of State, certainly wasn't responsible for terrorist-related deaths that night. That is insanity speaking to say so, and that's the problem. Insanity is speaking in this country. How do you speak to or answer insanity?

message 12: by Roger (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments Sorry, I just remembered one more thing that Sylvia and Laureen said that irks me. There's no evidence Trump has a high IQ, as a matter of fact, it's quite the opposite. Trump has not released any of his college records. We don't know how well he did in school, and his IQ has been estimated to be one of the lowest in the history of Presidential politics. He hasn't released any results of IQ tests either.

This is all sort of ironic, because he challenged Obama for years to get Obama to release his Harvard college transcripts. He didn't seem to believe Obama could have been smart enough to have been selected to edit the prestigious Harvard Law Review. Why is that? Could it have been the same reason he hounded Obama for years about his birth certificate? And why did he do that? Could it have been something to do with his skin color?

Don't tell me Hillary started it. That's been proven to be a lie too, and doesn't explain why Trump kept it going for 5 years and carried it over to Obama's college transcripts.

message 13: by Roger (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments One more thing, sorry, I don't mean to be over-bearing. I'm naturally a shy person.

Trump supporters always tell me Trump "Tells it like it is", and that he has had the courage to expose communist Obama. This tells me that there is no critical thought process going on by those who make such claims. What has Trump told us that's "like it is?". He tells us who to hate and why. Is that telling it like it is? Is "exposing" a communist Obama, who is in reality far away from being communist, by challenging Obama's legitimacy to be President, or to have prestigious credentials, "exposing" our President? Or is it exposing the idiocy of Trump and his movement?

message 14: by Tytti (last edited Oct 21, 2016 12:58PM) (new)

Tytti | 7 comments Oh, Putin would LOVED to get Trump as the next US president! He might respect Clinton but he certainly won't respect Trump, no matter what he says.

What comes to abortions, the right to make decisions only extends to your own body, not anyone else's. Forbidding them wouldn't stop them, just make them more dangerous to everyone, especially in a country with no proper universal sex education. Besides, earlier Trump was pro-choice, IIRC. But his opinions change daily, who can keep up with them.

I find it funny how people claim they don't trust Clinton but they do trust Trump. It's just he keeps lying so much that the fact checkers and the media can't even keep up with exposing them. Yeah, he will build a wall to the border and Mexico will pay for it. Who believes that? The reason why those women came public with their stories was that Trump had said that he hadn't sexually abused women, and they wanted to tell that he is lying. Even his own wife accused him of rape.

Also I have seen no evidence that Trump loves America. In fact I haven't seen any evidence that he loves anything but himself. I have never seen him apologise for anything. And if anything, it's Trump who is quilty of name calling, and that has exposed him to be a sexist, racist, misogynistic bigot with whom I wouldn't be comfortable being alone in a same room. Luckily I am probably too old and not good looking enough for him because the only thing he cares about in a woman is her looks.

message 15: by Manda (new)

Manda (bookwenchmanda) | 4 comments Sylvia,

The issue with the pro-life movement is that most people are using their faith system to say that their beliefs are more important to make decisions about my health than myself or my doctor. Furthermore, third trimester abortions are VERY rare, and are typically only done in the case of serious medical issues with the child or mother. These decisions are not made lightly, and are not the place for someone out the situation to make that call. The idea of pro-choice is not pro-killing, but the idea that woman are human beings who are capable and competent people who can make their own informed decision.

You may be right that Putin hates Clinton and Obama, but I think that stems from his fear that he knows they will not tolerate his behaviors. However, you failed to account that Putin does not respect Trump, and sees where he can take advantage of his ego. Putin can use Trump to incite wars or disagreements, because Trump is easily manipulated by his feelings.

Trump has made mistakes. Hillary has made mistakes. Neither are perfect. The problem is, we have a responsible adult who can own up to her misgivings versus a child who apologizes to the kid he hit because the teacher caught him. Trump lies about his lies. He can't even keep his stories straight. Not to overlook that fact that he has been recorded on audio making comments about wanting to sexually assault women, and numerous women have come forward to claim he has done what he has claim he has done. He may have apologized, but I do not believe it was genuine. He did it because he "had" to. The thing is, I've forgiven my rapist, but that doesn't mean I want him to be in charge of making decisions for my future.

message 16: by Laureen (new)

Laureen (laureenandersonswfcomau) | 30 comments I agree Sylvia but this is a site hostile to the opinions of others. No point in even trying to have a different opinion. And you and I appear to be the "ignorant" ones. And we are fascists??? I have always admired the Jewish people and abhorred Hitler's insane beliefs. I love the Isralis and detest Islamic hatred. I detest warmongering but when another ideology tries to take over and Govern the world, someone has to stand against that.

I believe in freedom and not being governed by Political Correctness which is the ideology of left wing thinkers. America was built on the hard work of immigrants that relished the idea of freedom of speech and the ability to improve oneself through hard work. Same thing in Australia. Yes, we made mistakes along the way during settlement like not respecting the natives of the land but we have learnt a lot since then.

Now we have to contend with the corruption of Governments who think that the people who vote them in are mere puppets and can be brainwashed to believe that they are as pure as driven snow. Well, you will vote for who you trust whether you are mistaken or not but I don't trust those who feel they were born to rule and have claimed the White House as their home for far too long. That goes for both sides. Trump is an outsider, so it is worth a try is all I have been saying. It is a pity he is not more "polished" but polished people have never impressed me.

message 17: by [deleted user] (new)

All I can say is we can agree to disagree. No one will ever persuade you about Trump and no one will ever persuade me about Clinton, I love how your facts about Clinton and Trump are true, while mine are false.

message 18: by Roger (last edited Oct 21, 2016 02:24PM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments Yes Sylvia, it's odd how you can create facts that are different than the observed real life facts. That is a real art. That's politics. If you have real studies or evidence, or judicial findings, or anything that back up your "facts" I'd like to hear them. Is there something I said that is factually incorrect? Can anyone give us the details of the outcomes of the Benghazi hearings where Hillary was indicted for something? Or censored, or suffered any punishment?

Oh, I know, she got away scot-free, because the Republicans were bought off by the international illuminati who control this world. Of course, why didn't I remember that.

message 19: by Roger (last edited Oct 21, 2016 03:04PM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments The problem is that Trump supporters have a word for things they are told, and what they wish to then believe. They call them "facts".
It doesn't matter what the media tells them, or what the results of fact finding investigations, or legislative judicial proceedings, or investigative reports by experienced responsible journalists conclude.

If Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Trump, or Bill O'Reilly, Mark Levin, crazy off their rocker right wing Republican legislators like Barbara Bachman, Sarah Palin, Louie Gohmert, or Rudy Giuliani, makes some crazy wild claim, it becomes a "fact". All they have to do is say it, and it's a "fact".

Trump is an angel. All the women are lying. There's no global warming. We don't need to change our way of living to become green house safe. Build the wall because Mexicans are rapists and murderers, and not the hard working, dirt poor, honest $3 - $8/hour wage earners we imagine.

Huge tax breaks for billionaires because in Republican crazy world, trickle down economics works, and always has. Deregulation because the crash of 2008 didn't teach us anything that we shouldn't do all over again, and we need more pollution, it's good for us.

Obama is a communist agent, who doesn't know Stalin died, born in Kenya, trying to fundamentally change America in to a Stalinist regime, and destroy Christianity so he can bring us Sharia Law.

Hillary personally killed the embassy staff in Benghazi and then lied about it later to cover it up.

She hid 30,000 emails, deleted them, so that Congress couldn't find out about all the money she collected from her rich friends who rule despot countries around the world. She used a lot of that money to rape the country of Haiti using her Foundation, which is her personal piggy bank that finances her role in running countries for the illuminati around the world.

Lucky for us Trump is the one man who can rescue the world from their clutches.

Don't forget, Putin is our buddy. Great guy, probably going to be Trump's best friend soon. We don't need to see Trump's tax returns, because why do we? Who needs to know what he's been doing for a living or where his money goes? You're just not American if you don't trust Trump! Democracy is over-rated anyway. It's been with us for 240 years and where has it gotten us? With Hillary, that bitch? Trump will be better for us, trust me...

Are those your facts? Have I gotten pretty close to describing your position?

message 20: by Roger (last edited Oct 21, 2016 05:04PM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments One other thing, if you'll indulge me. I wouldn't want to argue about abortion because I can see both sides of that argument.

My mom's best friend, when she was young, died in a back-alley abortion. My mom is so pro-choice. She hates pro-life people with a vengeance, literally. She has me pretty well convinced. I think women should make their own decisions, but as a society, we should encourage, educate, and help women to come to other decisions than abortion, without ever forcing them, but this is one issue where I wouldn't argue with someone who sees it different.

It's a deeply personal decision for each individual as to what position you should take on this issue, but that's exactly why, as for me, I'm pro-choice.

message 21: by Steve (new)

Steve Harrison (stormingtime) | 4 comments I have a very simple, perhaps flippant, opinion on abortion:

If you are against abortion, don't have one.

My blood boils when I hear anyone - particularly men - try to control what a woman does with her body.

message 22: by Laureen (new)

Laureen (laureenandersonswfcomau) | 30 comments So a future life doesn't matter to you Steve? If the natural mother doesn't want a child, I am positive either the father or an infertile couple would relish the opportunity to love and nurture a new baby.

BTW, I am not judging those who have made that decision but I think it is much more harmful for the mother's psyche then she probably realizes at the time. Life can be extremely difficult and many circumstances can lead to this decision. My first baby came along at a very bad time and I cried long and hard but when my son was born, I fell head over heals in love with him. All the difficulties seemed to melt away and although it was extremely hard, we were so glad for this experience. I realize that is just my experience and there are no doubt many other less fortunate stories.

Whatever, it is not just the mother who is affected by such a decision. The baby has a right to life once conceived.

message 23: by Steve (last edited Oct 21, 2016 06:31PM) (new)

Steve Harrison (stormingtime) | 4 comments Laureen wrote: "So a future life doesn't matter to you Steve? If the natural mother doesn't want a child, I am positive either the father or an infertile couple would relish the opportunity to love and nurture a n..."

I choose not to interfere with a decision that belongs entirely to the woman concerned. You can interpret that however you like. It's simply none of my business. Or anyone else's.

message 24: by Tytti (new)

Tytti | 7 comments Laureen wrote: "The baby has a right to life once conceived."

A three-month old fetus is not yet a baby, it won't survive on its own and most abortions are done before that.

message 25: by Roger (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments Here's my beef with Trump people.
They say they're not racists, and Trump's not a racist. When speaking with them, I'll point out all the racist things Trump has said and done, and how he has said things to get the racists excited.
The Trump people will say none of that matters because Hillary is so crooked.
Ken Starr, an able prosecutor, looked through everything the Clintons did that might have been questionable in the 1990's, White Water, Travelgate, Vince Foster, Bill's affairs, all of it. Juanita Broderick, who now accuses of Bill of rape, swore under oath back then that they had consensual sex. Ken Starr spent one hundred million dollars of tax payer money and many years going through everything the Clintons and their associates did with a fine tooth comb.
The only thing he could come up with, after all that, and by this time the nation was pretty fatigued with the endless accusations that never seemed to amount to anything, the only thing Ken Starr came up with was that Bill Clinton lied under oath about getting fellatio from his intern, Monica Lewinsky.
All those supposed scandals, and that's all he could come up with.
The Republicans had Bill Clinton impeached over that, and Bill was promptly acquitted, with many Republicans voting in favor of acquittal. By this time the Republicans were being pretty well humiliated over all this, especially when it was found out that the Republican Speaker Of The House, Newt Gingrich, who was leading the impeachment hearings, was committing adultery.
Now, these many years later, the Republicans are doing the same thing. By the things they say you'd think the Clintons are the most corrupt couple in the history of the world, right up there with Pol Pot and Al Capone, but the FBI, whose Director is a Republican, just went through her email issue with a fine tooth comb, and officially stated that the worst you could say about her was that she was a bit careless, and there was no intent to do anything criminal.
But none of that matters to you Trump people. It only proves to you how corrupt the system is. After all, you say, if they can't bust her when she's so obviously guilty, what does that say about the system? If you did half the stuff she's accused of you'd be locked up for life.
So, Trump's racist behavior and the racist things he's said doesn't matter to you, and that's the problem I have. It does matter. The number of KKK offices have tripled since Trump announced his candidacy. Bullying in schools based on racism has shot through the roof. I'm having my first anti-Semitic attack directed against me on the internet, and the site and the people responsible don't apologize, acknowledge it, or take it down.
Yet I talk to you Trump people about racism and it goes right past you. I might as well be speaking Greek. It doesn't matter to you. But it should matter. We can have racist people in this country. It's a free country and people are free to be racist, but we shouldn't be asked to vote for a candidate who has done and said racist things, not once or twice, but many times, and he's never apologized for any it.
And you people who nominated him seem to be quite happy with your pick. You scare me much more than the candidate.

message 26: by Laureen (new)

Laureen (laureenandersonswfcomau) | 30 comments I assume you hate Trey Gowdy too? You believe all good people love Hillary and Bill and that they are innocent of coverup?

message 27: by Tytti (last edited Oct 23, 2016 07:49AM) (new)

Tytti | 7 comments What cover-up? I can't keep up with all the conspiracy theories. I think most people who hate Hillary would have no problem if she were a male Republican. After all many Republican male politicians have done much worse that she is being accused of (not proven).

I just don't like people who advocate violence like Trump does in his rallies. It's disgusting. Maybe you don't have a problem with Trump's misogynism, sexism, racism, bigotry, lies, vindictiveness, lack of any real experience or knowledge about world or international affairs, but they do bother many people.

(Msg 27 flagged.)

message 28: by Roger (last edited Oct 23, 2016 07:48AM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments Laureen, what you are doing is changing the subject.

Fine, I already answered your question. The processes required by our laws and institution found Hillary not guilty of anything serious enough to prosecute her for. Trey Gowdy did a great job representing the opposing party, and I completely believe we need opposing parties to hold our politicians feet to the fire. He did his best and there was nothing that came out about her which rose to the level where she became disqualified to be President.
Just because some people opposed to her politically try to claim she should have been found guilty of something, when she never was, does not disqualify her to become President, as you are about to find out. If nothing comes out to disqualify her, then it only makes those people trying to have her disqualified over unfounded accusations look silly, and there seems to be a lot of silly people in this country.
I am all for prosecuting her if something does come out that will indict and convict her. I don't want a criminal President either, but so far there is no proof whatsoever that she did anything criminal. To the contrary, Trey Gowdy, to his credit, did everything he could to discover wrong doing, and he discovered nothing of the sort. At this time, the case is closed against Hillary. She is eminently qualified to be President, and she will be your President soon.

message 29: by Roger (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments By the way, in anticipation of what you might say next, I didn't say she did nothing wrong.
What I said, is that she didn't do anything wrong which rose to the level of disqualifying her to be President. That's an important distinction. The FBI said of her email situation that whatever wrong doing was done, was done unintentionally. The FBI Director is a Republican, of the highest integrity, appointed by a Republican. I think that was enough to close the case for most legislators in this country, which means the case is closed. You start to look silly when you try to keep open a closed case.

message 30: by May (new)

May (mayzie) | 420 comments Roger, that was a very clear headed statement. Well said & thank you!!

message 31: by Roger (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments One more thing, so in conclusion, you are seriously going to try to tell intelligent human beings, that since all the powers that be in this country found Hillary innocent of serious wrong doing, that therefore there is a vast conspiracy, which includes Republicans to let Hillary cover up her wrong doing and get away with criminal acts? Is that your position? And you don't seriously think we're going to laugh at you, consider you silly, and vote your candidate down in the biggest landslide in American history?

message 32: by [deleted user] (new)

I think it is time to disconnect from this conversation. Apparently since I am not intelligent, I am deplorable and silly. Well, good luck to you. Perhaps since the American debt is at $20 trillion it can go to $40 trillion with Hillary.

message 33: by Roger (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments That's ignorance Sylvia, because the rate of annual debt (per year) was eliminated under Hillary's husband. It skyrocketed with G.W. Bush, then Obama has brought the rate of annual debt down to the point where this year we're running a surplus, bringing the debt down.
Trump's plan is to cut taxes drastically on the wealthy, and increase entitlements, skyrocketing the debt again. Hillary's plan is to tax the wealthy and not touch anything else for the time being, keeping debt where it is.
That's the thing that's so frustrating trying to have discussions with people who are ignorant of the facts. You bring things to the discussion you claim, but when the facts are examined, the opposite of what you claim is true.

message 34: by Tytti (new)

Tytti | 7 comments Sylvia wrote: "Apparently since I am not intelligent, I am deplorable and silly. Well, good luck to you. Perhaps since the American debt is at $20 trillion it can go to $40 trillion with Hillary."

Well you haven't actually given a very intelligent picture of yourself. It doesn't seem to matter to you that economists and even Republicans themselves are warning people about Trump and his policies. His tax plans don't add up but I guess his supporters don't really care about any facts.

It would be fun to look from the outside how much worse everything would go under Trump but unfortunately the changes in the US economy affect the whole world, so I can't afford to think like that.

message 35: by Vicki (last edited Oct 23, 2016 04:49PM) (new)

Vicki (goodreadscomboobooper49) I've been reading this thread and I'm so disheartened that people cannot "allow" others to have their own opinion. THAT is what makes threads such as these interesting to read. It's too bad that there is name-calling and people being told they are stupid, idiots, and that [she] "haven't actually given a very intelligent picture" of [herself].

NO ONE should make another feel less than others. We are not all created equal! No, I'm not racist, bigoted, sexist, etc. But I do know that each of us is born with a very different potential. Some of us are born with genius IQ, others with average or less than average IQ's. Some of us understand politics better than others; some (like myself) have other fortes. Not everyone is up to arguing a point and trying to force their own beliefs on others. Not everyone does understand whether or not a "planned annual debt" is a good one or not. That does not make a person IGNORANT! This thread could educate those who don't understand without demeaning them or being condescending. To be honest that's why I came to this thread in the first place so that I could read others' thoughts and (hopefully) get some insight.

We are all different beings with different opinions about the "facts" of anything and everything. I'm just sad to see Goodreads that is meant for people to share their love of books being used to vent and demean others. I'll probably get blasted too, but I must stand up and say that I think Sylvia said and did the right thing when she said to agree to disagree. This thread does not show respect for others.

Roger, I see your tone as being opinionated and angry so that's what I really hate about this thread. You sound like you are doing what you accuse Trump of doing: putting people down. You are obviously very articulate and write well, so why not use your talents to educate in such a way that others want to read your opinions?

I won't be posting anything else in this thread nor reading anything more because I like to post an opinion, have it agreed or disagreed with in a RESPECTFUL way, and not see people being put down because they view things differently.

message 36: by Laureen (new)

Laureen (laureenandersonswfcomau) | 30 comments I wish there was a like button. I concur Vicki. I am always looking out to understand other points of views but I don't see genuine respectful discussion here. I will not be posting any more either.

message 37: by Vicki (new)

Vicki (goodreadscomboobooper49) Laureen wrote: "I wish there was a like button. I concur Vicki. I am always looking out to understand other points of views but I don't see genuine respectful discussion here. I will not be posting any more either."

Thanks, Laureen. I'm out of here!

message 38: by Roger (last edited Oct 23, 2016 06:17PM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments Vicki,

You describe the problem perfectly, but you have it turned around in the opposite direction. It has been Trump's supporters that have been repeating lies and falsehoods told to them by right wing extremists, Trump, and right wing media personalities. They then state these lies as facts in defending the policies and persona of Donald Trump.
I believe that fascism has reared it's ugly head in America, and it is our duty as Americans not to hide and pretend the fascists argument, or point of view, is equivalent to the argument or point of view derived from examination of the facts, the perspective that comes from belief in Democracy, liberty, equality, and justice for all.
You deserve to be treated with respect, but if you're going to defend fascist points of views, then those points of view are not worthy of my respect. We need to stand up tall against fascist points of view, and call them out in to the light of day, where they can be stamped out.
My point, to start this thread, was that I have personally been experiencing anti-Semitic abuse here in the book community. I have not, as people have accused me of through complaints to Goodreads administration, been trying to promote myself or my book. I believed, in my heart, that you should know about people you do business with that abuse minorities.
I posted a second thread, this one, complaining that in my belief, and it's open for argument, and that's a good thing, but it's my belief that it has become more acceptable to abuse minorities because of the rise of the fascist beliefs promoted by Trump and his followers.
This thread is a perfect example of that. I am a Jew. Who better to point out and complain about fascism than I?
The fascists are going after other minorities right now, not so much the Jews, but more so against the Mexicans, Muslims, other minorities. I'm sure the Jews will come up for widespread abuse if this fascism is not checked. The way to check it is to complain about it and complain loudly.
The lies the fascists tell to rally support to their fascist cause, coming right out of the Nazi playbook, is to dehumanize your opponents. Hillary becomes an evil criminal, that needs to be locked up, regardless of any facts that might prove otherwise. Minorities become evil and something to be feared, and gotten rid of. Obama is a communist wrecking the country, and made to bear the sole responsibility for horrendous debt and the destruction of sacred Christian values. Obamacare therefore is ruining the country's finances, and eliminating health care for millions.
Obamacare isn't perfect, it could use some tweaking, but the alternative of doing nothing would have meant that 16 million people would not have health insurance who do now, including millions with pre-existing conditions. People don't have to lose everything they worked all their lives for if they have a catastrophic illness, and the problems with Obamacare can be fixed. It needs tweaking, but not repealing. That's just one example among very many, regarding the lies you are being told about Democrats and Democratic policies.
Sylvia and you other Republicans who comment and reply, have stated you know nothing about what you are commenting on, and then you state what you believe as if they are facts, when in reality, what you are stating are the opposite of facts. Then, you get upset when you are told the facts. Why not find a right wing person to respond with actual facts? I think all thoughtful intelligent people in this country must be getting tired of these Trump surrogates on TV refusing to answer questions about policies and facts, or outright lying to avoid stating facts.
Trump's trying to destroy our system of fair elections by lying about the integrity of our election system is the latest and worst, and most fascist thing he's doing, but making the abuse of minorities acceptable to his supporters is just as bad.

message 39: by Roger (last edited Oct 24, 2016 02:19AM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments One other thing, I forgot to mention that health insurance premiums without Obamacare would have gone up much faster for most Americans than they have with Obamacare which means that the percentage of our GDP spent on health care has gone down. Obamacare has helped us keep down the debt that Republicans worry so much about.

Some people were not able to keep the exact same health insurance through their employers as was promised by the President, and the cost to employers with 50 employees or less has gone up faster than anticipated.

It used to be that the young paid very little for health insurance because they were the group with the least chance of getting sick. The older people paid more, to the point where poor and lower middle class older people couldn't afford health insurance, they were basically excluded unless they had jobs working for businesses that paid their health insurance. People with major illness had their premiums skyrocket to the point where eventually they'd lose their health insurance when they needed it most. Anyone with pre-existing conditions was excluded from health insurance.

Obamacare has fixed it so that the older poor and lower middle classes now pay much less, people with illnesses don't lose their health insurance, and neither do those who have pre-existing conditions. Health insurance for those groups is now subsidized by the rest of society. The younger people now have to pay quite a bit more than they used to, because they now pay not just for their group, but as a part of the whole group. If they don't buy health insurance they face paying 2% of their taxable income as a fine, which is used to pay for everyone else's health insurance, and the wealthy now pay more as well. The groups that used to be excluded, mentioned above, now have affordable care.

To be sure, it needs some tweaking, but not many economists say it needs repealing, except for those who say a single payer system would be more efficient.

Is it a bad philosophy to want all Americans to have access to health insurance when they get sick, and not only people in the upper income brackets? It's a form of socialism, but is all socialism bad? Do we have to say that the country is going to hell and becoming communist because we want to make sure a child of the poor has access to a needed kidney operation as much as a child of the wealthy?

Does making this country healthier and better educated make this country better, stronger, and help us pay our debts, or does equitable health care and things like universal publicly paid higher education, which Hillary proposes to put forward when she becomes President, rob from the people that have to give to the people who have not?

These are factual issues to discuss, and it's quite reasonable to take a classic Republican point of view and make an argument against Obamacare and universal higher education by saying that all socialism is a bad thing.

We have had some socialism in our economy that has worked. Social security for instance. Work programs during the Great Depression.

It's not reasonable to demonize people who disagree with you as evil criminal commies trying to take over the country and turn it in to a dictatorship, and paint Obama as an illegitimate pinko commie reverse racist Islam loving President from Kenya trying to turn this country in to a Muslim communist state just because his party wants to make this country better for everyone, rich and poor. And then use hate rhetoric based on stereotypes against all groups who might benefit from, or support social economic policies to whip you up in to a lunatic frenzy, assuming that Democracy is over-rated, and corrupted to the point where it might be better to be done away with, and a "strong man" like Trump put in charge to fix everything that's supposedly wrong, and put Hillary where she belongs, in jail with the rest of the commie pinko homosexual trouble makers, like they do in the good dictatorships, like Russia, and south America.

message 40: by Tytti (new)

Tytti | 7 comments It doesn't require an IQ of a genius to see that Trump is a demagogue, it's just common sense. And I don't see why I should respect an opinion of a person who would vote for a bully who doesn't respect others or their opinions and advocates violence and even a murder of innocent people. I don't respect kids who laugh when someone bullies others at school, either, so how is this any different? Trump even acts like an ill-behaving school boy.

Vicki wrote: "Not everyone does understand whether or not a "planned annual debt" is a good one or not. That does not make a person IGNORANT!"

Well, actually, if someone doesn't know something then they are ignorant. Though I am not sure where that "planned annual debt" even came from or what it is. It is also ignorant (or stupid) to claim something as a fact that isn't true. And if someone doesn't understand something, they should try to find out about it or at least listen to the people who are professionals in the matter, not someone who only knows how to make empty promises. It's simply a question of critical thinking. I am nobody's teacher, there is enough material online for people to read.

Not all opinions are equal, and an opinion doesn't mean a thing if it's not backed by facts. I have lived next to a dictatorship long enough to recognise propaganda when I hear it. And my country didn't survive between Stalin and Hitler by being politically correct and respecting everyone's opinions but by having leaders who respected the law and had integrity, they were not divisive nor volatile.

Everyone can flag posts with pictures like that but it's hardly surpising that someone who supports Trump would post something like that. After all he likes to "grab pussies" and says that the female moderator had "blood coming out of her... wherever" because she asked him difficult questions. Who talks like that? And I should respect an opinion according to which a man like that is fit to be a president? I don't think so.

message 41: by Kim. E. (new)

Kim. E. I'm almost afraid to post here since I'm new, but if anyone sits back and really reads this thread, it shows such a good example of how divided and angry we've become this year. I'm a crazy one has always enjoyed politics, since a little girl going into the voter box with my parents before I could read, and still have political discussions with my siblings and parents.
In the past 3 elections I've made phone calls, knocked on doors, worked in offices, etc. This year I even am involved in a special app, make calls from home, and send special notices out on Twitter. I'm one of those crazies who has watched and listened to everything from the beginning because I wanted to be informed, and I wanted to be sure who I wanted to support.
Respectfully, that decision is not Donald Trump. I swear on my phone with my daughter ant him, but I swear anyway. This is her first chance to vote, and I don't want her to think it's always like this, but I see the anger growing and simmering. This is much different than in 2008 with Barack Obama, and I do put much of that on him. I watch his speeches, interviews, what's said on Twitter, and when he is "subtly" suggesting violence, telling white voters to vote then go "to those places" in Philadelphia, Chicago, etc. he's not talking about the Magnificent Mile. In the last 24 hours he's told several groups that the 11th victim to come out, an admitted adult star, that he did nothing, especially since "she's used to being grabbed."
I used to work with sexual abuse victims in many situations, and even if this woman had sex every 15 minutes for a week before she met him, she could still say no. We all can say no, but from listening to his first 100 days plan, I don't think he ever hears "no" about anything. He still thinks Hilary with one vote in the Senate could change tax structure.
But the one that truly hurt me, was today, when, after less than a week, he called the mission for Isis a failure because it's not over yet. He doesn't understand why the coalition warned the Isis leaders, but he knew from his briefings. They wanted them out of Mosul because they want to corner them at their self- described capital. Everyone can vote freely (except for some places where it's being played, like county in NC that went from 62 to 1 in black community), and I hope everyone here does, even if we don't agree right now (smile).
So sorry if I sounded like I was preaching. I sure didn't mean to if I did.

message 42: by Tome Reader (new)

Tome Reader (tomereaderlolly) The word ignorant is commonly thought of as derogative, but it simply means without knowledge. It doesn't mean stupid.

Ignorance can be fixed. Stupid often can't.

So if you don't know much about any topic, you're ignorant. I too am ignorant about a lot of subjects, but I am not a dummy or stupid.

message 43: by Ann Greenfield (new)

Ann Greenfield | 8 comments I am not American but Trump comes across as a racist, sexist, homophobic idiot. I think he he is going to be bad for the world.

message 44: by Joyce (new)

Joyce  | 3 comments He is not going to be president.

message 45: by Joyce (new)

Joyce  | 3 comments Kim. E. wrote: "I'm almost afraid to post here since I'm new, but if anyone sits back and really reads this thread, it shows such a good example of how divided and angry we've become this year. I'm a crazy one has..."

I don't think we should discuss politics on Goodreads.

message 46: by Joyce (new)

Joyce  | 3 comments Vicki wrote: "I've been reading this thread and I'm so disheartened that people cannot "allow" others to have their own opinion. THAT is what makes threads such as these interesting to read. It's too bad that th..."

I totally agree. This is supposed to be a discussion about good books to read. I am sick of people using social media of any kind to discuss politics and/or religion.

message 47: by Roger (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments I would like to point out that my original post was a complaint of being a victim of anti-Semitism in the book world, the people that you do business with.

Is that the sort of discussion of politics and/or religion that you are sick of?

If I was a person of color, and someone in the book world made fun of my skin color, would that be allowed to be a topic of discussion?

A woman? An invalid? Where do you draw the line on what is and isn't a topic of discussion for book people?

message 48: by Roger (last edited Oct 30, 2016 06:06AM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments Follow up with the new email case reopening:

At some point you have to decide: Democrats, no matter who is there in charge, Hillary or Kane, or Trump, with everything ugly that comes in to our culture with his wake, Nazi-ism accepted in society.

I am all for having Hillary indicted for her crimes, if there are any serious crimes to charge her for.

On the flip side of that, it would be nice if Republicans leave her alone if she is cleared, and let her be President.

message 49: by Martha (new)

Martha Rosemberg | 9 comments I'm Brazilian, but I'm worried about your future. You'll have to fight Trumpism as much as you fight KKK

message 50: by Roger (last edited Nov 06, 2016 05:45AM) (new)

Roger Raffee | 21 comments Make no mistake, if you love freedom in America you are witnessing exactly the scenario that would occur if fascism was festering on our shores. The rhetoric against it would need to rival Churchill's in England, or Roosevelt's, in order to stop it. It would creep like a thief coming from out of the night. To save our freedom as Churchill and Roosevelt did, and as the millions of freedom loving individuals did, we would need to recognize fascism and stand up to be counted against it. You have to reach into your hearts and decide whether these are the signs we are seeing now:

1) A strong leader using nationalistic and jingoistic speeches to rally the angry portion of the populous susceptible to representing and supporting causes and beliefs of hatred and excess pride to rally around his, a dictator's cause.

2) Telling lies, because there is little truth that the rational would follow in the dictator's movement. Accusing those who refute the lies as part of the opponent's conspiracy against them.

3) Blaming the other side, demonizing them. Co-opting the arguments of their Opponents by .blaming their Opponents for doing what they, the fascists, are accused of.

4) Boldly telling lies against opponents so often and loud so that fascists may appear to be the victims of their own lies.

5) Using those who have been swayed or duped by the fascist arguments and beliefs to do the fascists bidding.

6) Change the opinion of much of the populous in order to persuade them to have casual disregard and disdain for the country's established laws and institutions so that:

7) Replacing country's laws and institutions with fascist laws and institutions becomes an attractive alternative.

8) Replace country's laws and institutions with fascist laws and institutions, supporting fascist leader and his government

. If you read the above and you ask yourself; is not our country already fascist? Is it not time for a change? Keep in mind, that those would be the questions the fascists would also ask.

To answer, ask yourself which side supports Democracy, liberty, justice, fairness, and equality, and believes in laws and institutions designed to promulgate those principles of Democracy for which they stand? Which side believes in the rule of law, and seeks to apply it fairly.

If you question those principles above then you belong on the side of the fascists, and this warning would appear to you as ridiculous and cynical.

A corrupted Democratic system can be repaired by a populous that clings to it's principles.

A Fascist system is corrupted to the core.

I can only remember Franco's Spain as the only fascist government that survived fascism's popularity in the early 20th century. It was a country of political stability, even during hard times, but it eventually fell by the wayside, as the people grumbled, after Franco died, at having had to live for so long under the thumb of an oppressive government.

Putin's Russia is a fascist oligarchy, and all dictators in this current modern world, since WW2, could be called fascist. Their regimes are marked by lack of freedom. Unfairness in the justice systems. No guarantees of equality, especially if you are not in a group favored by the ruling party. Little regard for Democracy. Laws and institutions designed to protect the rulers. Peace and stability guaranteed by jailing and persecuting dissenters, or killing them.

If you believe and yearn for the principles of Democracy, then know that the biggest threat is your standing silent while they are being taken from you. Democratic principles are a joke to those who feel threatened by them. Democratic governments have made terrible mistakes, but Democratic governments learn and evolve and grow in positive ways if the people within it's borders strive to make their lives better, not only for themselves, but for everyone around them.

A government is no better than the people it governs, or as Franklin D. Roosevelt said "a government can be no better than the public opinion which sustains it."

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