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message 1: by Darren (last edited Oct 16, 2016 06:38PM) (new)

Darren Anyone else watching this?

I like how rather than a pure reboot, it's built on the remains of the old Westworld resort.


message 2: by Michele (last edited Oct 16, 2016 07:02PM) (new)

Michele | 1154 comments I've watched the first two episodes. I like it so far, but I think something is a bit off, pacing maybe or the music? I don't know, but I catch myself getting bored even though I find everything fascinating.

Everything's so serious too. Coming from being a huge fan of Jonathan Nolan's Person of Interest, I'm missing having a bit humor scattered in occasionally. I don't expect to be cracking up, but at least a little amusement here and there.

Gorgeous though - everything about the production is just gorgeous. And the acting is top-notch. Loving Anthony Hopkins and Ed Harris especially.


message 3: by Silvana (new)

Silvana (silvaubrey) | 1646 comments I loved it! It was one of those shows that could make me put down my cellphone because it is so engrossing. I now have the urge to go Dolores and whisper to people "these violent delights have violent ends."

However, why it has to be a Western world? A dreary dusty and hot environment like that is not my idea for escapism. I wonder if there are other companies working on other worlds.

Anyway, good stuff, HBO!


message 4: by Phil (last edited Oct 16, 2016 08:46PM) (new)

Phil | 1152 comments There was a sequel to the original movie called Futureworld so you never know what might pop up Silvana.


message 5: by Darren (last edited Oct 17, 2016 03:32AM) (new)

Darren Silvana wrote: "I loved it! It was one of those shows that could make me put down my cellphone because it is so engrossing. I now have the urge to go Dolores and whisper to people "these violent delights have viol..."

Westworld originally had Wild West/Medieval/Roman sections, but the main story only really focused on the Wild West one. For the show they probably figured why bother with the superfluous ones? It's not like just having it be a Western is coming cheap or anything...


message 6: by Kev (new)

Kev (sporadicreviews) | 648 comments I like the music. OMG that version of Paint it Black was great!

I do find the show kind of slow at times, but it's interesting enough to keep my attention.

Hadn't really given it much thought as to being a Johnathan Nolan production (PoI, Limitless, etc.). There is humor, but it's subtle humor.

And if you play MMORPGs, you might enjoy the similarities: quest givers, NPCs with repeating dialogue that starts as you approach and stops mid-thought as you ignore them and keep going, character creation before you start the game (but no intro area), I'm sure there's many more but that's what I've noticed so far.

Let's speculate (I don't think this is spoilers, as it's speculation): Who in the "real world" is a `bot? Ford or Bernard? I don't know, but I think one of them might be.


message 7: by Darren (new)

Darren SporadicReviews.com wrote: "Let's speculate (I don't think this is spoilers, as it's speculation): Who in the "real world" is a `bot? Ford or Bernard? I don't know, but I think one of them might be. ."

Neither.

Now, is Arnold the Man in Black?


message 8: by Stephen (new)

Stephen Richter (stephenofllongbeach) | 1339 comments It is a slow reveal is it not? I like it but I am still in the WTF mode.


message 9: by Michele (new)

Michele | 1154 comments Darren wrote: "SporadicReviews.com wrote: "Let's speculate (I don't think this is spoilers, as it's speculation): Who in the "real world" is a `bot? Ford or Bernard? I don't know, but I think one of them might be..."

The creators have said it's highly unlikely we'll see Arnold as a character - which could be a lie, but probably means the Man in Black is not Arnold. Now, whether or not William is the MiB is the hottest topic, along with is Bernard a host.


message 10: by Darren (new)

Darren The William theory makes no sense at all. Dolores is meeting William after reacting to the Man in Black.


message 11: by Michele (new)

Michele | 1154 comments Darren wrote: "The William theory makes no sense at all. Dolores is meeting William after reacting to the Man in Black."

Ah, she rides off in one scene and in the next she ends up in William's camp. But does the one directly follow on the other? No way to be sure.

The William thing comes from the company logo - the one you see in his scenes is different from the one you see in the "now" scenes (and is also on the lab coats in the flashback of the early days when Hopkins is talking to Bernard and also on the doors of the cold storage rooms, which seem to be a pretty old section of the complex).

Also, a lot of what he encounters in his first scenes is slightly different to what has already been established in the pilot - the train stop looks different, the first quest guy is army instead of lawman, etc. Reddit is overflowing with all kinds of theories and screenshots and nonsense :) Fun stuff to chew on.


message 12: by Sandi (new)

Sandi (sandikal) | 1212 comments I am loving this show. We watched the firsy episode 3 times the week it came out. There is so much detail.

I read that they have 5 years worth of story laid out. I hope they get to some of the other worlds. I just wish HBO was showing the original movie. My brother loved it when we were kids, but I never saw it. I'd like to know how it correlates to the series.


message 13: by Darren (new)

Darren Michele wrote: "Darren wrote: "The William theory makes no sense at all. Dolores is meeting William after reacting to the Man in Black."

Ah, she rides off in one scene and in the next she ends up in William's cam..."


There is no way to be sure, but she's dressed and looks the same, and as they say, she's been rebuilt so many times she's practically brand new.

I'll have to look into the logos, though. I certainly didn't notice those things. It's certainly the sort of storyline Nolan would write.


message 14: by Tassie Dave, S&L Historian (new)

Tassie Dave | 3597 comments Mod
Sandi wrote: "I just wish HBO was showing the original movie. My brother loved it when we were kids, but I never saw it. I'd like to know how it correlates to the series. "

It is a lot different than the movie.
I haven't seen it for nearly 40 years, but I've heard a lot of people say that it hasn't aged well and isn't worth watching again.

I don't think the man in black is Arnold. Arnold would be much older. In the picture he looks older than Dr. Ford and that picture is 60+ years old. Which would put him around 90, if he was still alive.

and what's the deal with Dr. Ford wanting all the robots naked?
"It doesn't get cold, It doesn't feel ashamed"
Obviously the technician's feelings and comfort level with the nudity doesn't count. I'd cover the old man's junk up too if I was working on him ;-)

Anthony Hopkins character is a bit of an a-hole ;-) to his workers and his treatment of the robots.


message 15: by Darren (new)

Darren Tassie Dave wrote: "Sandi wrote: "I just wish HBO was showing the original movie. My brother loved it when we were kids, but I never saw it. I'd like to know how it correlates to the series. "

It is a lot different t..."


I watched it last year, or maybe early this year. Anyway, after the announcement of the show. I think it's still worth watching, as long as one accepts when it was made. There's definitely some hokey, and I'm glad they didn't do more of the medieval and Roman settings, from the little we saw of them. Yul Brynner is still fantastic in it, though. (Ed Harris is doing great work, but he's no Yul Brynner).

It's very much a Michael Crichton story/theme (Be careful what you wish for) where the show seems to be more of a what do the hosts say about us? (Hopkins' speech to Sizemore)


message 16: by Silvana (new)

Silvana (silvaubrey) | 1646 comments Game of Thrones/Westworld crossover? Well I guess depends on which part of The Known World the park is based on. http://io9.gizmodo.com/george-r-r-mar...


message 17: by Darren (new)

Darren Silvana wrote: "Game of Thrones/Westworld crossover? Well I guess depends on which part of The Known World the park is based on. http://io9.gizmodo.com/george-r-r-mar......"

It's very... nice... of GRRM to volunteer all the actors on Game of Thrones.


message 18: by Tassie Dave, S&L Historian (new)

Tassie Dave | 3597 comments Mod
Silvana wrote: "Game of Thrones/Westworld crossover? Well I guess depends on which part of The Known World the park is based on. http://io9.gizmodo.com/george-r-r-mar......"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bmuH...


message 19: by Silvana (new)

Silvana (silvaubrey) | 1646 comments @Darren: hahaha yeah well I prefer the GoT sets to be used for Dunk and Egg stories when GoT ends.
@Tassie Dave: great stuff!

I just read the William theory and it just blew my mind. I think I prefer that one than Arnold being MiB.

Speaking of the MiB, I might have missed it but were we given explanation on why he was free to do anything in the park? anything he did and said could be watched by the company people, right? weren't they worry about his quest for the maze whatever that was?


message 20: by Michele (new)

Michele | 1154 comments Silvana wrote: "@Darren: hahaha yeah well I prefer the GoT sets to be used for Dunk and Egg stories when GoT ends.
@Tassie Dave: great stuff!

I just read the William theory and it just blew my mind. I think I pre..."


Nothing official about why MiB is allowed free reign - theories include 1) He's the only survivor of the crisis from 30ish years ago and was given a lifetime pass, 2) He's just some super-rich park junkie, 3) He's Arnold, or an android with Arnold's personality uploaded (this one I think is too silly), 4) He's both super rich and totally twisted by being in the park too long and now seeks to destroy it or get revenge on Ford for ruining his life or something, 5) (tied in with #2) The quest he's on with the maze thing is actually like the ultimate hidden quest that was designed into the park, one you have to be at max level to even find out about - like for any MMO players, once you've done all there is to do and levelled up as far as you can go, now what? Aha, super secret ultimate badass quest chain! And when you get to the end...you get to live forever in a robot body? You get to own the park ala Willy Wonka?


message 21: by Michele (new)

Michele | 1154 comments Tassie Dave wrote: "Sandi wrote: "I just wish HBO was showing the original movie. My brother loved it when we were kids, but I never saw it. I'd like to know how it correlates to the series. "

It is a lot different t..."


I think Hopkin's character, Ford, has seen too many people become too invested with the hosts, anthropomorphizing them (wow, I think I spelled that correctly!), falling in love with them, feeling bad about the scenarios, getting too attached in some way. It might be what caused the past problem, it's probably what drove Arnold bonkers.

Keeping them naked and making sure the employees are constantly reminded that these are robots, walking toasters - there has to be a constant effort to remind everyone. I mean, if you were working on a dildo as a technician or artist, would you be embarrassed about it? Should a heart surgeon be worried about looking at boobs while he operates on a woman?

I think Ford is a man who's keeping many secrets, and who's seen a lot of awful things, maybe even done many bad things, and is also some kind of genius - definitely low on the people skills on purpose or just by nature.


message 22: by Darren (last edited Oct 20, 2016 06:26PM) (new)

Darren The William = MiB argument seems to be largely debunked. All it ever had going for it was the logos.

As far as the MiB having free reign, how is that different from any of the guests? To be honest that scene where the techs were alarmed that "someone took out a whole posse" didn't really gel with what you see from the rest of the West. It seemed to me like something put in to mollify viewers that there are some sort of behavioural safeguards in place, when in reality Ford says the only reason Dolores is so innocent is so that guests can enjoy raping her. The only reason Teddy is so brave is so guests can enjoy taking away the Tough Guy's girl. Etc. Etc.

It's a bit like how Ford breaks down Sizemore's proposed new storyline (this only tells us who YOU are) but then puts what seems to be a far more fucked up one of his own into play. The only way I can explain that is Sizemore's planned storyline must have been encroaching on territory Ford had mapped out for his own use, and got slapped down.

There are no checks on guest behaviour. It's as the host tells William in the changing room. "You don't need to worry about what other people would do anymore."

Personally I think they should tone down the 120 Days of Sodom vibe, or at least provide reasons/enticements for virtuous behaviour.


message 23: by Tassie Dave, S&L Historian (new)

Tassie Dave | 3597 comments Mod
Darren wrote: "Personally I think they should tone down the 120 Days of Sodom vibe, or at least provide reasons/enticements for virtuous behaviour. "

I agree. There would be protest, rightly, if anyone, now, started a theme park that catered for murder, torture and rape fantasies.

I'd love to go to Westworld and be a white hat cowboy. Saving the damsels in distress, bringing in the dangerous outlaws (dead or alive), going on quests for "El Dorado" like treasures etc
A futuristic dude ranch. "Fantasy Island" in a western setting (with or without Tattoo ;-) )


message 24: by Darren (new)

Darren Tassie Dave wrote: "I'd love to go to Westworld and be a white hat cowboy. Saving the damsels in distress, bringing in the dangerous outlaws (dead or alive), going on quests for "El Dorado" like treasures etc."

Right?

A lot of people fantasize about being heroic. I think HBO let Game of Thrones go to their heads a bit.


message 25: by Darren (new)

Darren I never noticed in the credits before now, but Ed Brubaker is in there as a supervising producer, which I assume means he's writing story to some extent.


message 26: by Tassie Dave, S&L Historian (last edited Oct 24, 2016 08:23PM) (new)

Tassie Dave | 3597 comments Mod
How great is the music of Westworld. They manage to slip in music from modern rock songs onto the player piano in the bar. As well as some Rolling Stones as background music.
These songs will probably be seen as old fashioned by the time the park opens.
They even had a bit of classical opera in this week's show (Habanera from Bizet's Carmen.)


My new theory on the Man in Black is that he is the son of Arnold.

We now know he is very rich. Enough to have his own Charitable Foundation. Arnold as a creator would have had a large share in the company, that passed to his heirs.

The park staff sign off on his mayhem and demands without question. I would assume anyone else asking for pyrotechnics would at least be given some thought before it was allowed.
"Mr Arnoldsson" gets what ever he wants. When he wants.

He's the right age. Ed Harris is 65. Arnold, if he was still alive would be late 80's/early 90s.

He is interested in Arnold's legacy.

My guess is he is looking for answers to why his father was thrown out of the project and possibly vengeance for his death. Suicide? etc

It would be ironic if he is Arnold's son seeing that Arnold was the more optimistic of the 2 creators. He thought most people would want the virtuous storylines, and Ford thought they'd want the depraved storylines.


message 27: by Darren (last edited Oct 24, 2016 11:39PM) (new)

Darren Tassie Dave wrote: "How great is the music of Westworld. They manage to slip in music from modern rock songs onto the player piano in the bar. As well as some Rolling Stones as background music.
These songs will proba..."


Except he seems to be a self made man, and "his foundation literally saved [guest's] sister". That doesn't seem like an inheritance thing. Also the way he called Arnold by his first name, doesn't seem like a son/father thing.

I'm not all that interested in the mystery, I find. If this just winds up being another show where it's just endless cliffhangers masquerading as narrative, I think I'll be done with it.


message 28: by Tassie Dave, S&L Historian (new)

Tassie Dave | 3597 comments Mod
Darren wrote: "I'm not all that interested in the mystery, I find. If this just winds up being another show where it's just endless cliffhangers masquerading as narrative, I think I'll be done with it. "

I don't mind mystery, as long as they pay off on each of them and give us some answers before the season is over..

I realise my MiB theory is more likely to be wrong than right, but if I swing enough times I might connect and get one right ;-)


message 29: by Silvana (new)

Silvana (silvaubrey) | 1646 comments I was wondering about the logistics e.g. how guests are influencing each other's role in the park. How many people can be in the park at the same time? Surely some will be at the same place at the same time and thus will sometimes interfere with one another.

Like if I wanna hang out in the bar with Teddy all day but another guest wants to take him hunting so what happens? Is Teddy the one making the decision or the park?

Or I start shooting everyone in the street and some people actually have something to do with their hosts who I killed then what happened since I totally ruined everyone's narratives? Do they get their money back? Or maybe since I pay more or am in the higher level than other guests (like the MiB maybe) then the other guests just have to deal with it?


message 30: by Michele (new)

Michele | 1154 comments Silvana wrote: "I was wondering about the logistics e.g. how guests are influencing each other's role in the park. How many people can be in the park at the same time? Surely some will be at the same place at the ..."

Well, from the latest episode, #4 we see that they can reset a scene really fast - they had 20 minutes to finish that scene with the safe stealing and get the streets cleaned up before the family arrived in town.

So I'm guessing if you're with a host and he/she gets gunned down in a random guest incident, then you go to the hotel and have a meal and by the time you're done the host is back and functional - maybe a quick patch job until you're done and then they can do a complete fix.

I think Teddy's main programming would be to go on the bounty hunt or whatever, so you'd probably be out of luck on the "hanging out with Teddy in the bar" thing. You know, "Sorry, but I've got a job to do," like in real life. Like if you went to the saloon and Clementine was already upstairs with a guest, you'd have to wait.

And I have no proof, but I'm thinking there must be more than one starting point for guests. We've only seen Sweetwater but there's probably another town that might be more PG level, or you can start out at a distant ranch, or the Mexican town, or an Indian settlement depending on what you want from the visit. That would make it much easier to have more guests who aren't always interfering with each other's storylines.


message 31: by Michele (new)

Michele | 1154 comments I have a new Man in Black theory :)

So maybe he's William, but the main thing is - this guy came to the park once a long time ago, something happened that changed him completely, and since then he's been obsessively visiting the park regularly. He's completed all the most interesting and challenging quests, most likely many times with many variations - trying them out in hard mode, walking through them with ease, being both White Hat and Black Hat, rushing through them with all the ultimate weapons he's picked up as loot and quest rewards.

So he got totally bored eventually. And he'd become an adrenaline junky, only feeling alive or like his life has meaning when he was in the park - he needs more. And then he heard about Arnold who died in the park - in the park where guests are supposedly immune from any real damage.

While searching for more info on how Arnold managed to die, he came across this idea of the Maze, which he thinks is the ultimate Easter egg quest chain. And so he is now running around the park doing all kinds of random things in an attempt to complete this quest, because he thinks that at the end of it he will face something completely new - real danger, the possibility of actual death, or the ability to kill a real person. This is his goal - to truly test himself, to take the park to the next level.

He may believe that what will happen is the robots will all become sentient and the park will become a chaotic killing ground with real death and pain and meaning behind the violence, which would combine both his quest and the Maze's real purpose.

I'm so obsessed with this show now, it's ridiculous :)


message 32: by Stephen (last edited Oct 25, 2016 10:34AM) (new)

Stephen Richter (stephenofllongbeach) | 1339 comments I am still in the WTF mode. I may be repeated this sentence until I can binge watch the whole season in one drunken sitting.


message 33: by Darren (new)

Darren Tassie Dave wrote: "I don't mind mystery, as long as they pay off on each of them and give us some answers before the season is over.."

Right.


message 34: by Darren (new)

Darren His name's Robert Ford? Really?


message 35: by Tassie Dave, S&L Historian (new)

Tassie Dave | 3597 comments Mod
Darren wrote: "His name's Robert Ford? Really?"

I didn't notice that until you mentioned it.
I hope they don't go fully literal with that.


message 36: by Darren (new)

Darren Tassie Dave wrote: "Darren wrote: "His name's Robert Ford? Really?"

I didn't notice that until you mentioned it.
I hope they don't go fully literal with that."


I think it's no accident. Robert Ford remaking the Wild West in his image?


message 37: by Eric (new)

Eric Mesa (djotaku) | 632 comments Just caught up with this thread as I just finished catching up with the show.

1. @Darren's comment about this being built on the remains of the old Westworld - I totally didn't think about that, but I guess it's a nice easter egg for people paying attention? 2 hints for that, I think. In episode 1 when they go to the zombie chamber (where Abernathy is sent) it has the feel of a section of the park that people used to go to and is now being used as a storage facility. A podcast I listen to referred to it as an abandoned mall. Then episode 5 MiB tells Teddy they used to be machines, not flesh robots - and that jives with the original movie.

2. Also @Darren I noticed Brubaker's name at the end of episode 3 or 4 - I think he was a writer on that ep (in addition to some kind of producer role)

3. I'm not sure if I buy the William is MiB thing or the two timeline thing but without a website that traces me through why there aren't contradictions in what's happening out there vs the bots talking to Hopkins, Bernard, and Not-Ellen Page - I can't be sure. However, don't forget that this is a Nolan joint and those Nolans love messing with narrative time - Momento and The Prestige (for example) so it's entirely possible. It would also help solve the fact that no one notices Evan Rachel Wood disappears every so often to speak with Bernard or Ford. Finally, this great video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d46Az... ) explores how the Nolans tell you all of the plot twists of the Prestige, but you just don't know enough to realize it. Also, he mentions the Nolans love immersion /meta and that's definitely happening here in Westworld.

4. BTW - considering the conversation here about Ford getting pissed about people covering up nude bots - great job by the directors having Bernard always speak to ERW clothed, but in ep 5 Ford speaks to her naked.


message 38: by Eric (new)

Eric Mesa (djotaku) | 632 comments One more thing I forgot because I had so much to say - the plot point in ep 4 about info leaving the park - was that in the original? Because I've read that Westworld is the spiritual ancestor to Jurassic Park - Critchton refined the ideas of the former for the latter. So I was wondering if this Dennis Nedry 1.0. If it wasn't in the original movie or book (there was a book, right?) is it homage?


message 39: by Darren (new)

Darren Eric wrote: "One more thing I forgot because I had so much to say - the plot point in ep 4 about info leaving the park - was that in the original? Because I've read that Westworld is the spiritual ancestor to J..."

I have to wonder what the point of that reveal was. Once Elsie showed that the hosts log all sexual encounters and then shows video, presumably queued to the hosts... there's nothing but tech heads working at that place. No chance that information could be contained, so why bother physically hacking the hosts?


message 40: by Eric (new)

Eric Mesa (djotaku) | 632 comments Darren wrote: "Eric wrote: "One more thing I forgot because I had so much to say - the plot point in ep 4 about info leaving the park - was that in the original? Because I've read that Westworld is the spiritual ..."

Maybe people don't rotate out - maybe they're killed?

Then again, the park couldn't survive 30 years with everyone dying like that... dunno


message 41: by Silvana (new)

Silvana (silvaubrey) | 1646 comments Hi Eric, which podcast are you listening to?


message 42: by Darren (last edited Nov 07, 2016 05:51AM) (new)

Darren (Nobody puts) Yul Brynner in the corner!


message 43: by Eric (new)

Eric Mesa (djotaku) | 632 comments Silvana wrote: "Hi Eric, which podcast are you listening to?"

Boars, Gore, and Swords - it's a Game of Thrones podcast, but they're currently covering Westworld as a break from covering books 4 and 5


message 44: by Darren (last edited Nov 14, 2016 05:23AM) (new)

Darren I didn't see that coming. Not the Bernard reveal. Michele mentioned that above. But everything else about that scene...


message 45: by Silvana (new)

Silvana (silvaubrey) | 1646 comments Yup. That scene.

I am convinced now that Anthony Hopkins is the devil. Noone can give me chills like he does.


message 46: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer | 170 comments I have watched each episode at least twice. All I can say is that is is amazing. I am on the edge of my seat. Maeve is one of my favorite characters. I love what they are doing with her story arch.


message 47: by Nokomis.FL (new)

Nokomis.FL (nokomisfl) | 316 comments Silvana wrote: "Yup. That scene.

I am convinced now that Anthony Hopkins is the devil. Noone can give me chills like he does."


Hello, Clarice.


message 48: by Stephen (new)

Stephen Richter (stephenofllongbeach) | 1339 comments Yes I just sat there and said " WTF!!"


message 49: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer | 170 comments The last episode has sent me over the edge. OMFG. It was awesome and terrible all at once.


message 50: by Darren (last edited Nov 14, 2016 10:31PM) (new)

Darren Apparently last names do matter a lot. Bernard Lowe is an anagram of Arnold "Weber".

https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/co...


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