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Dark Hunter: General discussions > [Discussion] Acheron is malevolent

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message 1: by Michael (new)

Michael Buchler | 130 comments Has anyone noticed how almost no one in the books calls him on this. Firstly there is the curse that Apollo placed on the Apollites. Ash has the powers of a Chthonian and (I assume) most of the responsibilities that come with it. Aren't they supposed to protect mortals from gods being fickle and causing enormous harm? One argument against this being that if Artemis or Apollo dies, the other dies with them and thus destroying the world. But Ash is an ally of Savitar, so it is not unreasonable to assume that they could work together to end them both without ending the world. This would free the Apollites *and* solve the Daimon problem.

Secondly there is the issue of Strykerius. Ash is really hard on Dark-Hunters who kill humans and is also quite hard on those who willingly let Daimons go/cooperate with them. Isn't that what he has been doing with Stryker. They aren't friends or even allies, but he still lets him go/protects him in many a conflict. I know his life force (Stryker's) is tied to Ash's mom, but he still pretends to be a DH even though he is by the very definition a Rogue DH. This strikes me as absurdly hypocritical. He "allowed" Cherise to die but isn't willing to the same with his own? Even after millions have faced a fate worse than death (they're souls die). Again, the whole kill a god- end the world issue. Again, he has the powers of a Chthonian, so he should be able to prevent that.

Sorry if this reads like a rant. It's been on my mind for a while now and I couldn't quite figure out how to put it into words.

message 2: by Dhfan4life, Honey Bun (new)

Dhfan4life | 10411 comments Some very deep thinking Micheal. I likely can't address all your issues with Ash there. But the only thing I can say on the chthonian thing there. I don't think he uses those abilities cause he wasn't initially chosen for that particular role. More like it was a trade off with Styxx in the womb. Hence I think Ash got Styxx's role and technically his human face to hide him away from the other Atlanteans.

Everything else, I'm sure others will have some ideas about as well.

message 3: by Charlotte, Cheesy Cakes (new)

Charlotte (charkro) | 1794 comments Sounds like you're grappling with the same issues that DH Nick is grappling with, Michael. =)

Like Dhfan said, Ash is not really a Chthonian. Yes, he has the powers (which he absorbed from Styxx in the womb), but he doesn't really fit the criteria for a Chthonian ... and again, like Dhfan said, he really doesn't use those powers. He hasn't been assigned a Chthonic territory, either.

SK has a very lengthy explanation about Ash and his Chthonian abilities on the official site:

(btw, personally I'm hoping that we get to see a Chthonian rebirth in the upcoming Deadman's Cross trilogy. ;D)

Now, as to whether or not the Chthonians can kill Apollo without ending the world ... well, all I can say there, is that the situation is a bit more delicate than it appears. As Carl and SK have both stated, "it's not that easy." Apparently, Artemis and Apollo are so closely tied to the sun and moon, that killing them will end the world. Even if their powers are drained completely.

At least, that's what I understand from the whole thing.

As for why Ash doesn't take out Stryker ... oh boy. Let the debate begin on that one.

One thing to consider, about Stryker's life force being tied to Apollymi's ... yeah, I can see that as being problematic, as Polly is a Primal and therefore very, very, VERY difficult to kill. (In fact, I don't think that Chthonians have the powers to kill a Primal. Other gods, yes, but not Primals.)

Just a thought or two of mine. =)

message 4: by Dhfan4life, Honey Bun (new)

Dhfan4life | 10411 comments I was waiting for ya on this one Charlotte, lol. Beautifully and well stated thoughts as usual. :)

message 5: by Charlotte, Cheesy Cakes (new)

Charlotte (charkro) | 1794 comments Aw, thanks, lol. =)

I'm waiting to see others weigh in on this, too. =)

message 6: by Dhfan4life, Honey Bun (new)

Dhfan4life | 10411 comments Quite welcome. :)

No kidding. Definitely a interesting topic.

message 7: by Shari-amor, Doll Cake (new)

Shari-amor | 5275 comments I was actually waiting on Charlotte too. I usually have the same thoughts but she writes it out a lot better than me. lol
Myst is another that I'd love to hear on this. They're very good at remembering little details

message 8: by Shari-amor, Doll Cake (new)

Shari-amor | 5275 comments And to add onto it, I do think that Polly cares for Stryker and Im sure that Ash takes that bond into account. She had Stryker in her life and as a confidant in ways that she couldnt with Ash. It's all a very complicated relationship between Ash, Polly and Stryker.

message 9: by Charlotte, Cheesy Cakes (new)

Charlotte (charkro) | 1794 comments Excellent point there, Shari, about that complicated relationship. =)

Marie is another good one to weigh in on this. =)

message 10: by Dhfan4life, Honey Bun (new)

Dhfan4life | 10411 comments Shari-amor wrote: "And to add onto it, I do think that Polly cares for Stryker and Im sure that Ash takes that bond into account. She had Stryker in her life and as a confidant in ways that she couldnt with Ash. It's..."

Good call on the one on one relationship Stryker and Polly had for so many years. I mean he was hella loyal to her for many years as her "son" as well. So yea, can't just axe him in one fell swoop. As she does still have a soft spot for him.

message 11: by Myst (new)

Myst | 734 comments One thought why Ash doesn't interfere is he knows all to well what happens when gods meddle about with things. Ash himself is a product of gods meddling and ending up making things worse...if his aunt hadn't meddled and places the 'beauty' curse on him, both his and Styxx's lives would've been a smidge different.

If Artie hadn't refused to acknowledge that she and Ash had a relationship (even if just called a friendship), Ash may have lived past his 21st bday.

If Ash hadn't been so miserable due to Artie to drown his feelings in drugs and wine, he *might* have heard Ryssa being attacked. Not necessarily, but maybe.

If Ryssa hadn't died, Apollo (maybe) wouldn't have gone berserk and cursed his bloodline.

So if just gods meddling about with mortals/each other led to all of that, as stated above, what would happen to a cthonian meddling about with 2 gods *directly* tied to the earth and moon...could they use Katra to siphon those primordial powers and move to a new host?

As crummy as the world is with Apollo in it, it could be so much worse if Apollo dies. What if daddy Zeus decides to blow a fuse and restart the cycle of cursing?

As far as Ash as a 'rogue DH', technically he isn't a DH. He pretends to be, so the DH's have a leader. Remember, Artie made the first DH's and saddled Ash with them to bind him back to her. So he was given a 'job' he never asked for and again was gods meddling with the lives of mortals. By the time Artie did this, Ash had learned his familial history and powers and knew from personal experience what gods meddling with mortals could do. So he felt guilty Artie did what she did and felt honor bound to help these DH's any way he could. If that meant *pretending* to be the first, so be it.

And lets not forget he's got the ability to see people's potential futures so he may be able to see that messing with person B could be a *really* bad idea.

With power comes responsibility. That means knowing when to use your power (or not).

And here's a real world example...Saddam Hussain dies, the volatile middle east degrades into all out chaos since Saddam actually kept some of the other foul leaders/groups in line. It wasn't an 'easy' peace he kept, but it was somewhat less violent in the long run.

And lets not forget cthonians aren't ALL POWERFUL, they do have weaknesses, and as stated above, he technically wasn't born for that duty. Styxx might be a better choice (does Styxx have a territory yet?) to be messing with the gods since that was his be a cthonian.

As for Cherise, Ash stated in a book somewhere, she had already moved on by the time he knew about her ultimate fate. *If* he was able to pull her out of wherever she went, what would happen to the other entities? Would that rip the fabric of reality? So the world might end up being 'better' with her dead and happy in her afterlife than if Ash had meddled and brought her back in some form.

message 12: by Rachel (new)

Rachel Smith (rlsauthor) | 626 comments We also have to remember it was Ash who spoke the words that ultimately led to Cherise's death. He knows he can't undo what he sets in motion. I'm still curious to see if he ever figures out it was a careless sentence from him that set the whole thing off. That's one of the things I'll be paying attention to when I start my series re-read here in a few weeks. (which I plan to do with a notebook handy!)

I don't see him as malevolent. At all. He's cursed and he knows it. No one should be saddled with the powers he was given. All things considered, he does a great job paying attention to his words and not setting things in motion.

Isn't there a scene in Wulf's book, I think, where he illustrates what will happen if he interferes in a seemingly innocent situation?

message 13: by Shari-amor, Doll Cake (new)

Shari-amor | 5275 comments Ah See, this is why I love this group. Things that I dont remember or even take into avcount is brought to my attention. Thaaanks Rachel and Myst.

Ash is definitely a being that was brought into this world with powers unimaginable and misunderstood. How many other beings could have his powers and not have given in to the demon in him or to just set his mother free!? There are consequences to everything and he knows that better than most so he tries his best to not meddle . It's even more hard for him when he cant see the potential futures of those close to him.

I dont remember the scene you're thinking of, Rachel. I do remember the scene in Ravyn's book when he runs into a woman who hits on him. He see's what what happens if he does and does not sleep with her. I thought that was pretty cool to see.

message 14: by Rachel (new)

Rachel Smith (rlsauthor) | 626 comments That might be the one I'm thinking about, Shari.

message 15: by Charlotte, Cheesy Cakes (new)

Charlotte (charkro) | 1794 comments Again, excellent points made, ladies. =)

Yeah, I remember that scene in Ravyn's book, where Ash has to consider what would happen as a result of his actions. (I'm pretty sure that's the scene you're thinking of, Rachel.)

Something to think on: in Illusion, Kody thinks of the importance of balance, and the necessity of having both good and evil.

In nature, there is always a predator and prey--again, a sort of balance. So one could argue that in a way, Stryker and his Daimons provide a necessary balance--especially when you consider that they are both predator and prey.

I also imagine that Ash feels badly for Stryker, to a certain extent. After all, Stryker was cursed through no fault of his own, and he is fighting for survival. along with his people. In that regard, Stryker is innocent, and I can see where that would touch Ash's sense of humanity. (If that makes any sense.)

message 16: by Dhfan4life, Honey Bun (new)

Dhfan4life | 10411 comments I second what Shari said. I love this group and all the ideas and recollections we can come up with around here. Now just to hear back from Micheal to see what he says to all this beautiful knowledge. :)

message 17: by Michael (new)

Michael Buchler | 130 comments Confirmed: It's in Ravyn's book (ebooks ftw!)

It is possible (and most probably likely) that the consequences of offing Artemis/Apollo might be more far-reaching. They both seemed to be very focused on survival, more often than not to the detriment of others. It would be just like them to do something to make the consequences of killing them worse than the average run-of-the-mill god or goddess. Hopefully Sherry will shed more light on this :)

As for Acheron not being a DH and therefore not having to follow the rules... I don't agree wholly. Yes, I believe that he should have some more freedom (like in Sundown's book where he authorized the death of Abigail). He is able to see the consequences of actions better than most, so it makes sense that he should be the one to make these decisions. However, I disagree wholeheartedly with him letting Stryker live. He might have felt sorry for the initial Dark-Hunters to become their leader, but he does have a responsibility to them. Letting Stryker live is not only bad for humans, it's downright *dangerous* to the DHs. He's seen causing a lot of damage to the DHs and even with the whole Demon soul thing going on, I don't think he'll stop. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions.

I also agree with the predator and prey nature of that relationship (well put, Charlotte :) ). Maybe they *can't* be killed off? Another question for Sherri :P But, I think that the DH should at least try!

Thanks for all the amazing responses :D

message 18: by Cindi (new)

Cindi (ourtrumpcard) | 534 comments In sum: Ash is not evil. I love Ash. He is misunderstood, but not evil. Stryker is a problem. Conflict is required. Thus we need Stryker. Artie/Apollo are not evil. Artie/Apollo are self-absorbed. Apollo cannot be killed b/c that would shake the entire universe. Artie cannot be killed b/c then we would miss all the Artie-isms. Any questions? :D

message 19: by Adam (last edited Dec 06, 2016 06:03PM) (new)

Adam (doward) | 165 comments I really do love you guys!

This is something I've thought about but not in the same way. Ash is one of the few beings that can see the consequences of his actions completely, unlike Sav, who can only see his actions once hes acted, Ash can see everything before hand unless its about his family. I think he knows when his decisions change things, he's in tune with the universe hes going to know when it shifts.

As for the Stryker, with his link to Apollymi, would you kill him knowing that it would mean the death of your mother? Regardless of anything else, would you be able to cause the death of the one person that's always tried to protect you?

As for the Dark-hunters, Artie made them to keep Ash tied to her, they were made using his powers she got from his blood and he feels understandably responsible for them.

Nick currently hates Ash because he knows Ash could have brought his mother back like he did Kyrian and Amanda, however, unlike Kyrian and Amanda who didn't move on because they wouldn't leave Marissa, Cherise moved on to whatever next and Ash didn't think it was fair or right to bring bring her back.

I could never hate Ash, his character literally saved my life, so i am a little biased.

message 20: by Rachel (new)

Rachel Smith (rlsauthor) | 626 comments Ash was brought back against his will, and has never forgotten how it felt. He'd never inflict that on another person. Especially one he loved as much as Cherise.

message 21: by Dhfan4life, Honey Bun (new)

Dhfan4life | 10411 comments Rachel wrote: "Ash was brought back against his will, and has never forgotten how it felt. He'd never inflict that on another person. Especially one he loved as much as Cherise."

Ain't it a shame you can't die in peace?

message 22: by Adam (new)

Adam (doward) | 165 comments It's a damn shame DH

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