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message 1: by Mehreen (last edited Oct 15, 2016 05:17AM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments People have fought long and hard to establish what came to be known as human rights. What falls within its jurisdiction is however perplexing. What do we mean when we say human rights? What rights are these? And how can they be preserved?


message 2: by GR (last edited Oct 14, 2016 03:02AM) (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments The only human rights a person has, is the right to see, hear, touch, taste, and imagine. All other rights are man made and given by political action. But, many feel the right to imagine should be stopped. It has happened before, and it will happen again.

The preservation of "Rights." That a good question. This is what I've got to say: Everyone has the right to do as they please. But, everybody must accept the consequences of their actions. This is something people don't want to accept. I find this with many foreigners. They want to go to the US because of the freedoms, which means they can bring their personal rights wth them. They become perplex when they face consequences.

Likewise with the US Constitution, the right to bear arms. When I was growing up (1940s), bearing arms meant in the case of state national defense. What happened? Is it now the right to kill? I see this all over the news.

The Rights, are what a constitution guarantees. In Germany, where I live and choose to live, one has the right to food, health maintenance, education, housing, a job, and live in dignity. Those are not an American rights.

Interesting note:
There are 15 million Americans who are legal residence living in Europe wide.
The political spectrum of Americans living in Europe is 9 million Republicans. The rest are 6 million whatever.


message 3: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments GR wrote: "The only human rights a person has, is the right to see, hear, touch, taste, and imagine. All other rights are man made and given by political action. But, many feel the right to imagine should be ..."

"All animals are equal, only some are more equal."


message 4: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14926 comments GR wrote: "where I live and choose to live, one has the right to food, health maintenance, education, housing, a job,..."

Not bad, I would say. Social rights + general freedoms.


message 5: by Jen Pattison (last edited Oct 14, 2016 11:08AM) (new)

Jen Pattison | 409 comments I'd like to see less navel-gazing about rights in the developed world and more action to free the estimated 48 million+ people in slavery in the present day, to whom any talk of rights is neither here nor there whilst they are in bondage.

Human trafficking - a euphemism for slavery - is now in the top 3 of the most lucrative crimes along with drugs and prostitution.


message 6: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 10709 comments The right to be free of oppression by others, and the corresponding obligation not to impose your will on others.


message 7: by GR (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments The only way to end slavery is to stop having babies. All of societies problems stem from having more babies. More babies, more problems. Nobody seems to understand that.


message 8: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14926 comments I'm afraid I don't understand too. GR, can you please explain how babies and slavery are connected?


message 9: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Nik wrote: "I'm afraid I don't understand too. GR, can you please explain how babies and slavery are connected?"

Good question. I want to know too. I would try and get rid of the slave drivers, not the babies.


message 10: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Ian wrote: "The right to be free of oppression by others, and the corresponding obligation not to impose your will on others."

That is a good one. I agree totally.


message 11: by Jen Pattison (new)

Jen Pattison | 409 comments Mehreen wrote: "Nik wrote: "I'm afraid I don't understand too. GR, can you please explain how babies and slavery are connected?"

Good question. I want to know too. I would try and get rid of the slave drivers, not the babies."


Same here Mehreen! It's a massive industry and there doesn't seem to be the wherewithal to tackle it - I do wonder if people in high places are getting backhanders in order to allow the trade to continue.

Besides, it's being said in some quarters that Europe's decline in births is creating a problem in that there will be fewer taxpayers to support an ageing population. So, we've been told for decades that humanity is a curse on the world and that our numbers should decline, but now that they have in Europe, this is a problem.


message 12: by J.J. (new)

J.J. Mainor | 2250 comments It's not just a problem in Europe. Remember, China recently rethought their one-child policy for the same reason.


message 13: by GR (last edited Oct 16, 2016 11:58PM) (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments Nik wrote: "I'm afraid I don't understand too. GR, can you please explain how babies and slavery are connected?"

GR wrote: "The only way to end slavery is to stop having babies. All of societies problems stem from having more babies. More babies, more problems. Nobody seems to understand that."

It's population growth. Population is exceeding the job market. Jobs are diminishing. I don't care how you look at it, but stability of a nation is dependent on jobs. Less jobs, more problems. The equation is there: more babies/people=less jobs=problems=unrest=dysfunction=it goes on and on and on and on. Now it's political unrest=DT vs HC.

Back in the 1950s when the US was at a economic and employment balance, the US was at the height of its productivity and stability. There were more jobs than employed. It was Happy Days. If you remember the TV show.

Slavery is created out of desperation. The more people, the more they become desperate for survival. People will do anything to survive. It's a human condition. I just saw a documentary on Spain's labor force. Africans are coming over Gibraltar in droves looking for jobs. They sell themselves for survival hoping one day they'll make it. 1% do, 99% don't. They become free labor in the job market. It doesn't matter what the job is. It's all about survival. Slavery of all kinds is created by population growth. Also, human value is diminished by population growth. Where do you rank on the scale of Human Value?

It's all around us. All we have to look at are the nations with the most population, and you will the worth of a person. I don't know how to explain it further. It's all about numbers. The scale has tipped toward hell.

I could go on and on explaining this, but population growth has to stop if we want stability.


message 14: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14926 comments Thanks for explaining your vision.
I read recently one of the last essays of Sergey Kapitsa - a Russian physicist and demographer, who claims that world's population shall remain around 10 Bill and that Argentina alone (with some effort though) can feed the entire planet through comparing its area and population with that of India.. He claims the problem is not with shortage of food or resources, but with their distribution mechanisms.. Don't know how true this is, but he offers some arguments and data supporting his conclusion. He searches the population from ancient times till nowadays and claims that explosive population growth is followed by low reproduction level. And indeed there are places on the globe past burst and with death rates higher than birth.
Unlike the essay in Russian, this is probably too scientific:
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10....
As of jobs - we can equally blame the progress that makes entire industries redundant. Some countries are already switching to shorter work weeks/hours. Hope diversification and transformation of existent jobs may offer solutions..
Or maybe babies are just the last thing I want to connect to slavery-:)


message 15: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 10709 comments Nik, I would dispute that resources or food are not a problem. We are about two thirds the way through the easily mined phosphates, and once they are gone, farm productivity really drops. Nitrates/urea/ammonia are OK as long as we have energy. However according to the Chemical Society about a dozen important elements are in danger of having no easily obtained ores to mine. For example, the "wipable touchscreen" on iPads, etc, has already gone through half the available indium. The indium is still there, of course, but scattered through the environment. Finally, there is the greenhouse problem - and agriculture is a strong contributor. Rice paddies are major methane sources, as are animals.


message 16: by Matthew (new)

Matthew Williams (houseofwilliams) Ouch! That's a tough one. I mean when it comes right down to it, rights are what people are entitled to by law, and that is pretty subjective. From a practical standpoint, no society would be governable without the right to life and the basic necessities - i.e. food, clean drinking water, housing, etc. But rights as we understand them go far beyond that and are subject to dispute.

For example, what is about firearms that makes certain people think they are entitled to unfettered access and ownership? What is it about government regulation in the economy that makes some people cry tyranny? Why do some people think taxation itself is a violation of their liberty? And why do we insist that our jobs and our health care be guaranteed and subject to protection?


message 17: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments This is an excerpt of what Magna Carta promised when it came to human rights. That was in the middle ages 12th century England. It promised the protection of church rights, protection from illegal imprisonment, access to swift justice, and, most importantly, limitations on taxation and other feudal payments to the Crown, with certain forms of feudal taxation requiring baronial consent.[36][12] It focused on the rights of free men—in particular the barons.[35] However, the rights of serfs were included in articles 16, 20, and 28.[37][d] Its style and content reflected Henry I's Charter of Liberties, as well as a wider body of legal traditions, including the royal charters issued to towns, the operations of the Church and baronial courts and European charters such as the Statute of Pamiers


message 18: by GR (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments Nik wrote: "GR wrote: "where I live and choose to live, one has the right to food, health maintenance, education, housing, a job,..."

Not bad, I would say. Social rights + general freedoms."


Those are iffy. General + Social rights don't mean anything. What are they? It's like the joke: What you wish for is what you get. You have to be specific, or you get it all in the face.


message 19: by GR (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments Nik wrote: "Thanks for explaining your vision.
I read recently one of the last essays of Sergey Kapitsa - a Russian physicist and demographer, who claims that world's population shall remain around 10 Bill and..."



In 1975 there was a documentary on PBS TV on the future and what to expect worldwide in the 21 Century. Everything it said came true so far: Air pollution, over population, drought, famine, storms, floods, and what struck me dumb, it said by 2050 the population would exceed 10 Billion people (at the time, I think the population was somewhere around 3 Billion. I could be wrong).

The biggest challenge would be food and how to feed the masses. The report said, if the food source is well managed, it could solve the world hunger problem. I say, not the way we are going lately. Profits and private industry will not work to accomplish that. There has to be a better solution to the economic problem. I think it has to be psychologically driven like cigarettes was a psychological campaign to stop smoking. And too, China has not solved the population problem with birth control.

It also noted that by the end of the 21 Century, population will soar to 15 Billion, then it will level off. The earth cannot support that amount of people no matter how well the earth is managed. Of course this was said in 1975. I don't know if it still holds.

In the past, over population was controlled by wars. Sounds familiar! Orwell comes to mind.

The other big problem will be air quality in the future. Earth's air will be poisonous. It won't be industrial pollution of hydrocarbons and carbon-monoxide and other toxic carbons, it will be worse. During the 1990s man has exceeded the rabbit population. Now there are more people than any other species on the earth. I'm not talking about bacteria. It will be organic pollution, which will cause a host of problems and diseases. In order to feed the masses, it will require more food. Every living thing will contribute to the pollution: Animal gases, animal waste, and that includes man. Not only that, I believe, man will turn to himself as a food sources, because it's free. Food cost money. That's right, cannibalism. It has happened before in early times. That's how man survived the deepfreeze during the ice age.

In order to avoid the inevitable, world economic and population growth has to change. War is not a solution, because it is so precarious and undetermined--we may find it in our backyard. More food is not a solution. Curbing population growth may be a solution, or at least for a while. If we don't change, Human values, we are going to change drastically. Our institutions will change drastically. Our religious institutions will change drastically. The value of mankind will be less. In order to survive, we'll turn to a new form of slavery.

The reason we won't change is because of our selfish reasons. We are looking for enemies--someone who disagrees with us. We as a world society is a dysfunctional society. And it's snowballing.

If the prediction of Fatima is correct, society will change drastically. We may not see a population of 10 Billion.

I'm fortunate not to see it happen. I will soon be 80 years old.


message 20: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments GR wrote: "Nik wrote: "Thanks for explaining your vision.
I read recently one of the last essays of Sergey Kapitsa - a Russian physicist and demographer, who claims that world's population shall remain around..."


Lol Who is Fatima?


message 21: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14926 comments GR wrote: "General + Social rights don't mean anything. What are they?..."

I was just referring to how you've described Germany, GR:
"the right to food, health maintenance, education, housing, a job, and live in dignity." + freedoms like - speech, movement, belief and so on...


message 22: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14926 comments GR wrote: "In 1975 there was a documentary on PBS TV on the future and what to expect worldwide in the 21 Century. Everything it said came true so far:..."

Predictions area is only a little less fertile than that of indie authors -:) Some managed to monetize nicely a bug-2000 fears. Surely, there are negative tendencies which needs addressing. Specifically re population growth, apart from the theories, I can't help noticing that among my parents generations families of 5-8 kids were quite frequent, while my generation - 1-2. No external curtailing... Many places in the West have negative growth and the same may happen in other places. Growing kids is first and foremost parents' responsibility and many families take into account their capabilities... Many others - don't...


message 23: by GR (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments GR wrote: "Nik wrote: "Thanks for explaining your vision.
I read recently one of the last essays of Sergey Kapitsa - a Russian physicist and demographer, who claims that world's population shall remain around..."


Fatima: It's better known as the Vision of Our Lady of Fatima. Look it up in Wikipedia. It happened in 1917 and was reveal to 3 children. 2 of the Visions have come to light, and 3rd has yet to be told. It was also given and verified by a Japanese nun.

It's just an interesting fact of what is to come. If you believe in such things.


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