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World & Current Events > Head Scarves

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message 1: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Do you think France did the right thing by banning head scarves from schools?


message 2: by Denise (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments I didn't know they did that. Was it just the head scarves or the burqa?


message 3: by Kent (new)

Kent Babin | 176 comments The hijab has become the de facto symbol of oppression in Muslim societies in the eyes of the west. Some western countries seem to think that if they ban it, all of the other problems will be fixed. This solution is about as lazy as it gets, not to mention laden with hypocrisy.

Cultural changes do not happen overnight. They tend to be generational, and, therefore, require patience and effort. If you want to solve the problems as you perceive them, it starts by practicing religious pluralism, providing equal economic opportunities, and putting an end to alienation. Over time, this will have a much more profound impact than reactionary legislation.

So, no, I don't think they did the right thing. They are skirting a very slippery slope here. Not only are they alienating Muslims, but they are alienating liberals as well. That's quite sad for a country that considers itself a bastion of liberalism and free expression.


message 4: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Kent wrote: "The hijab has become the de facto symbol of oppression in Muslim societies in the eyes of the west. Some western countries seem to think that if they ban it, all of the other problems will be fixed..."

Yes I agree. Orthodox Christian and Jewish women also wear head scarves. In Russia lot of Christian woman wear head scarves. Some churches won't even allow woman inside the church unless they have covered their arms and head. I faced this myself in Rome. Nuns wear a head dress. It is a failure of extrapolation to believe that head scarves are a Muslim thing.


message 5: by Kent (new)

Kent Babin | 176 comments You're right. I guess it comes down to religious tradition vs. male oppression. Seems like some western countries see the hijab exclusively as a result of the latter. It's as if there is no possible way that a woman would voluntarily wear it, so she must be oppressed. And, at the same time, if she doesn't wear it, she must not be oppressed.

Male oppression is a major problem everywhere. It is most definitely not exclusive to certain parts of the world.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments It makes me sad, actually.


message 7: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14895 comments Controversial issue.
Of course, the implicit motive may well include resentment of Muslim tradition, while explicit is, as I understand, security concerns.
What about wearing head- masks, used for bank robberies?
The opposite , i.e. - a public nudity is also not something universally tolerated.
But I understand that in some countries even loitering is considered a criminal offence - maybe even a more severe restriction of a personal freedom than free speech or freedom of dress.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments The security angle is a joke.then you may as well restrict males from wraring corporate business attire - the true garment of dangerous threats to society.


message 9: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14895 comments Sure, it may be just a pretext, although it encompasses all face-covering, as far as I understand:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_...


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Nik wrote: "Sure, it may be just a pretext, although it encompasses all face-covering, as far as I understand:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_..."


But what other group of people wear face coverings on a daily basis! The law is a profiled target and disgraceful.


message 11: by Denise (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments I had a whole thing written out and then I deleted it.


message 12: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14895 comments Why, Denise? Any opinion is welcome -:)


message 13: by Mehreen (last edited Oct 13, 2016 05:36AM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Denise wrote: "I had a whole thing written out and then I deleted it."

My POV is don't meddle with people's cultures. The Middle Eastern culture is very old and intricate. Seat of four great religions belonging to the same Abrahamic religions of the book. It is hubris to think that all this will change overnight.


message 14: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14895 comments Mehreen wrote: "It would be hubris to change all this overnight...."

Not sure it is necessary. It's only when people with one culture come to the other the questions start to arise...
Not sure it's a good example, but theoretically: There are people somewhere that, for example, eat dogs and then they come to Paris and eat stray dogs there. Should the law be changed to allow them this (if there is a ban) or should they abide by the law?


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments If the dog law was already in place it should be observed by all. If the law was created because of newcomers that is xenophobic and repressive.


message 16: by Denise (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Nik wrote: "Why, Denise? Any opinion is welcome -:)"

Mehreen wrote: "Denise wrote: "I had a whole thing written out and then I deleted it."

My POV is don't meddle with people's cultures. The Middle Eastern culture is very old and intricate. Seat of four great relig..."


I'll be back to answer, but you may not like it.


message 17: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments It is not an example Nik. It is my spiritual belief to not to mess with old cultures such the one in the Middle East which is the birth place of Abrahamic religions. This belief has no rhyme or reason. It was tactless, stupid and xenophobic as Tara says. They should have known better. Your dog culture or dog law is but a crude example. I must say.


message 18: by Denise (last edited Oct 13, 2016 07:01AM) (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Of course, this is just my opinion, which might affect how you feel about me, but this is my voice.

I decided to forget about posting. Just don't want to get into it with anyone.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Denise wrote: "Of course, this is just my opinion, which might affect how you feel about me, but this is my voice.

I decided to forget about posting. Just don't want to get into it with anyone."


I feel confident that I can speak for Nik, Mehreen and myself when I say that I hope you'll change your mind and share your thoughts. I don't share all beliefs but I respect the people who hold them and the views of others challenge me and help me solidify my own beliefs at the same time. No one argues more than Mehreen and I lol but even when I strongly disagree with her I never forget that I have had enough exchanges with her to know that she is sensitve, compassionate and a strong humanitarian. This is just an example. I believe people grow when they feel free to express themselves in a safe space and I want you to know you have that here, among peers.


message 20: by Denise (last edited Oct 14, 2016 01:54AM) (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Tara wrote: "Denise wrote: "Of course, this is just my opinion, which might affect how you feel about me, but this is my voice.

I decided to forget about posting. Just don't want to get into it with anyone."

..."


Aw, that's nice. Now why would I want to go and argue with you guys. LOL! I believe many of us are compassionate, and sometimes our beliefs boil to the surface.

I have something typed up. I'll think about it, but thanks for this post.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Denise wrote: "Tara wrote: "Denise wrote: "Of course, this is just my opinion, which might affect how you feel about me, but this is my voice.

I decided to forget about posting. Just don't want to get into it wi..."


Don't forget you can always inbox me :) I need an excuse to step away from wordpress lol. This overlord I know won't let me guest blog until I have my own website ;)


message 22: by Denise (last edited Oct 13, 2016 07:46AM) (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Tara wrote: "Denise wrote: "Tara wrote: "Denise wrote: "Of course, this is just my opinion, which might affect how you feel about me, but this is my voice.

I decided to forget about posting. Just don't want to..."


Ooo. If you need help with wordpress, let me know. My imprint site Wordpress one, but my author website is a template I manipulate on my computer and upload. I mean, we have to get you up and running before that post. :D

You may now return to the regularly scheduled program.


Tara Woods Turner | 2063 comments Denise wrote: "Tara wrote: "Denise wrote: "Tara wrote: "Denise wrote: "Of course, this is just my opinion, which might affect how you feel about me, but this is my voice.

I decided to forget about posting. Just ..."


Easy Digital Downloads is kicking my behind.


message 24: by Denise (last edited Oct 13, 2016 08:22AM) (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Tara wrote: "Denise wrote: "Tara wrote: "Denise wrote: "Tara wrote: "Denise wrote: "Of course, this is just my opinion, which might affect how you feel about me, but this is my voice.

I decided to forget about..."


I just Googled it. That looks like something I might want to do from my site. I'll have to see if I can add as a plugin. Thanks much.

ETA: Dang, my author website isn't Wordpress.


message 25: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14895 comments I'll go back to the topic, if you excuse me, and if it interests anyone? -:) Any French guys here, btw?

I'm undecided and I'll tell you why. I may be endlessly liberal and for me - let anyone do whatever. But other cultures don't share the same values. Remember, in some places where hijab is common, for a woman revealing any part of her skin may be a criminal offence.. If the newcomers don't accept the way of life of the place they come to (remember, it's not that somebody implored them to come), how can you be sure they won't want to change the rules when they have a more sizable community? Can you be sure, they'd be equally liberal towards you? I'd be afraid.
I am afraid in my place. We have religious towns where they put roadblock, so you can't enter with a car on Saturday and if you get there by mistake, they may throw stones at the car. I don't care, I don't need to drive there. The demographics are such that a religious majority is a very real prospect and I can't be sure I won't be grounded carless on Saturdays, if and when we have a religious majority.
We had centuries upon centuries people being killed, beheaded, burnt, etc for different views and believes, until in some places it became liberal, secular and humane. Not sure, I'd happily let this or other religion creep back in..
You can maybe expect from the newcomers to accept the way of life of the hosts. If I go to Thailand and it's not acceptable, to turn my feet or back (I don't remember) to Budda, I won't, in respect of local culture. And if there is something I don't like, I can go to another place..
Not decided...


message 26: by Denise (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Here it goes. I admit that I didn’t read any article about France banning burqas, so my response is aimed at the title of the post. Of course, this is just my opinion and I’m basing it off how I feel as an American, and one living in another country. Disclaimer: I am a huge believer in God but I dislike ALL organized religions. I think they’re as corrupt as politics. Anything written in the name of religion were guides, not supposed to be taken in the literal sense. I do not believe any loving God would demand things of His people.

That said, when it comes to burqas, I agree they should be able to do whatever they want when it comes to their country—it’s their culture. I don't agree when they leave that country. ANYONE who decides to move to another country better be prepared to follow that country’s ways.

I have nothing against Muslims. I treat everyone the way they treat me. We have a Syrian family living below us. They are nice, integrating into German culture. I say hello to the wife and little girl, but the husband and boys pretty much ignore me, only say hello to my husband. They won’t even look at me. It’s their culture, so I don’t take offense.

In my opinion, there’s nothing positive about the burqa, religious or otherwise, other than covering their face and bodies to protect from sand storms. Here is information regarding the burqa https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Muslim-w.... There are several different views: several state that it’s not required, it is a form of oppression for those forced to, and some wear it for empowerment.

If they need to wear it in their country for religious or safety reasons, that’s their business, but that changes once you decide to leave your country. A religion cannot expect the laws of another country to abide by theirs. Laws are created for the welfare of a country, so I don’t care if they’re created before or after. If they feel so strongly about what they wear for whatever reason, then I suggest they remain in their own country. If I go to someone’s house, they want me to take off my shoes and I refuse because of religious reasons yet I still enter their home, not only am I disregarding their feelings and personal space, but I am also disrespectful. It’s the same thing when you choose to live in a country you weren’t born in.

In the U.S., Muslims have fought to keep the burqa on for driver’s licenses and in court. That’s unacceptable. If someone wants to argue religion, because what they claim is demanded in the Quran, then they agree with oppression, making women responsible by hiding to avoid other men’s perverted gazes. To me, if you have to hide from the world, then I can’t help be distrustful of you. If America accepts it, it brings us back hundreds of years. We want to show men how to be men, not expect girls and women to cover up because men don’t know how to act civil.

Nowadays, people think everything is acceptable. Let everyone do whatever they want as long as it doesn’t hurt someone. I don’t. I believe in tradition and values. I believe in respect.

I wish America would start reclaiming its identity. Where people worked hard and were devoted to the companies they worked for and vice versa. Where cultures and religions were accepted as long as it didn’t impinge their new country. Where cultures and values were fostered in the home, shared with others, and integrated with the American way.

In America, why should we allow burqas for religious reasons, when we’re taking God Bless America out of our schools? Why should we allow other cultures to flex their rights, when the pledge of allegiance is removed from schools because it cites “Under God”. Absolutely Not! Only in America does government bow to immigrants and forget their citizens. I wish they would start looking at other countries for guidance, because other countries still hold onto their traditions and values.

No, I don’t agree that everyone who comes into a country should be allowed to do whatever they want to do. I disapprove of illegals protesting for their right to stay while carrying the Mexican flag (and yes, that’s what they do in Chicago and other cities). Obviously, people don’t understand what the word ‘illegal’ means.

And that’s how I feel about the matter.


message 27: by Mehreen (last edited Oct 13, 2016 02:55PM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Melanie wrote: "Denise wrote: "Here it goes. I admit that I didn’t read any article about France banning burqas, so my response is aimed at the title of the post. Of course, this is just my opinion and I’m basing ..."

Yes, but if you look at the culture of the Middle East, head scarves are an age old practice in the society for every woman. Just as people wear hats in the west. They will wear hats where ever they go, or won't they?


message 28: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Tara wrote: "Denise wrote: "Of course, this is just my opinion, which might affect how you feel about me, but this is my voice.

I decided to forget about posting. Just don't want to get into it with anyone."

..."


Well expressed Tara. We need to disagree sometimes to show that we have independent minds.


message 29: by Ian (new)

Ian Miller | 10681 comments The best ways to get head scarves out of schools is to have the children not want them. Teen-agers tend to be rebellious. Personally, I think face covering should be banned because it is used too frequently by criminals. The fact that not all using it are criminals is irrelevant. I have to keep to the speed limit despite my clear ability (!!!) to go faster because some idiots cannot control themselves at speed. The majority always have to have restrictions for the good of society.


message 30: by Mehreen (last edited Oct 13, 2016 07:21PM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Melanie wrote: "Ian wrote: "The best ways to get head scarves out of schools is to have the children not want them. Teen-agers tend to be rebellious. Personally, I think face covering should be banned because it i..."


I could argue give up wearing hats. It is dated. Why must anyone give up their thing regardless of where they live? Isn't this what human rights is all about?


message 31: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14895 comments Mehreen wrote: "Why must anyone give up their thing regardless of where they live? Isn't this what human rights is all about?..."

As of now human rights are different in each country. Sometimes very different. Rights originate from culture and mentality.
If you stay put at your place or in the place with similar culture - you need not change a thing, but if you come to another place - you need to take into account that it's not only about enjoying rights, freedoms, prosperity and financial help, it's sometimes also - an acceptance of the values of the place where you request to stay. If you don't like something about the place and this something is principle - you don't need to stay, but to ask the hosts to adapt to you may be a little too much -:)


message 32: by Mehreen (last edited Oct 14, 2016 01:04AM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Nik wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Why must anyone give up their thing regardless of where they live? Isn't this what human rights is all about?..."

As of now human rights are different in each country. Sometimes ve..."


We live in a global economy. It is impossible to stay put. If that were the case, many orthodox Christians and Jews living in places such as Russia and Ukraine would have to move to their roots, the middle east. I have seen them wearing veil in public places. Are you saying that people would stop wearing hats if they moved to the East or where the veil is prevalent? I seriously doubt that. The Brits didn't do it in India.


message 33: by Denise (last edited Oct 14, 2016 01:08AM) (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Mehreen wrote: "I could argue give up wearing hats. It is dated. Why must anyone give up their thing regardless of where they live? Isn't this what human rights is all about? "

I don't have a problem with scarves. They can wear them as long as it doesn't cover any part of their face.

Let's turn it around, Mehreen. If I went to the Middle East, and burqas or head scarves are the required wear, do you think they'd let me go without? No. Journalists and anyone who visit the Middle East are required to wear head scarves, and they do. They follow what is told of them, and when it comes to men, they tread lightly. Where are these people's human rights? Is everyone supposed to abide by Muslim ways in their countries AND outside of them?


message 34: by Graeme (new)

Graeme Rodaughan Tara wrote: "The security angle is a joke.then you may as well restrict males from wraring corporate business attire - the true garment of dangerous threats to society."

LOL.


message 35: by Mehreen (last edited Oct 14, 2016 01:12AM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Denise wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I could argue give up wearing hats. It is dated. Why must anyone give up their thing regardless of where they live? Isn't this what human rights is all about? "

I don't have a prob..."


Foreigners in the Middle East don't have to. They do it to better assimilate so they can do their job without difficulty. That's all. They neither like it nor wish to do it for a long time. But migrants are a different story, They live here and follow a faith. Like Christians going to Church and Jews going to the synagogue. I don't see any out cry against men wearing their caps of many sizes among the jewish or the Muslim community.


message 36: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Graeme Rodaughan wrote: "Tara wrote: "The security angle is a joke.then you may as well restrict males from wraring corporate business attire - the true garment of dangerous threats to society."

LOL."


That was excellent, Tara!!!


message 37: by Zee (new)

Zee Monodee (zee_monodee) | 0 comments I debated whether to jump in here ... because *confession time*, I am a Muslim, and I wear a head scarf. No, I am not oppressed; my husband didn't force me to. It was a personal choice, something I wanted to do. I didn't wear it for the first 26 years of my life, despite being born a Muslim and always having the faith in me.
And no, I don't cover my face.
Yes, I am educated. College graduate.
Yes, I work - I'm a romance author and an editor who even edits erotica.
Yes, I love music (I'll admit to being a huge Taylor Swift fan - come on, throw the rotten eggs now!)
Yes, I watch way too much TV and movies, and I have an unhealthy crush on Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth.

It was a personal decision for me. Yes, it might be cultural. I don't expect the world to accept my scarf, and I believe in it strongly enough to not go to a place that will take this freedom from me. Because I see covering up as a freedom - how is wearing a long-sleeved tee, cargo pants, and a beanie with my hair wrapped in it any different from a Muslim woman wearing a long-sleeved dress and has a piece of silk wrapped around her hair? How come the beanie girl is not considered oppressed?

You cannot take freedom from people - yes, even if some want to walk around naked. You place parameters where all can find and express their freedom, and in return, everyone respects such parameters - that's what law is about.

In a society where the Muslim wants to wear a scarf, the Rasta wants to have dreadlocks in a wool beanie, the Amish wants the head covering and simplistic dress - why can't we allow everyone the freedom to be who they want to be?

And before you tell me that is utopia. come to my country, Mauritius. Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Blacks, Whites, Browns, Asians, Buddhists, Tamil, Protestant, Catholics, Jews - we all live on this tiny spit of land. Your neighbor is almost always someone from another religion and/or community. You got to school with kids of all colors and races. Every religion gets a public holiday allotted per year for their festivities, and everyone benefits, knows of the customs of the other, respects that. Sounds like utopia? No, it's not, because it's the reality I live in. Tolerance, acceptance, respect - I get this and hand this over to others every single day! Why can't the world be like this, I wonder.


message 38: by Denise (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Mehreen wrote: "Foreigners in the Middle East don't have to. They do it to better assimilate so they can do their job without difficulty. That's all. They neither like it nor wish to do it for a long time. But migrants are a different story, They live here and follow a faith. Like Christians going to Church and Jews going to the synagogue. I don't see any out cry against men wearing their caps of many sizes among the jewish or the Muslim community.
"


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/advice/dress-code-guide-for-muslim-countries/

"The Foreign Office (FCO) advises that travellers to Islamic countries should respect local traditions, customs, laws and religions at all times and should be aware of their actions to ensure they don’t offend locals, especially during the holy month of Ramadan (which takes place between June 6 and July 5 this year) and when visiting religious places."

“If you want to be accepted and value the opportunity to befriend locals, dress modestly," says Telegraph Travel's Dubai expert Lara Dunston."

http://studenttravel.about.com/od/womenstudenttravelers/a/muslimclothing.htm

"Many female travelers suggest covering your hair in Islamic countries to help avoid rude attention from men;" Wonderful human rights.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Someone going to church and synagogue has nothing to do with someone covering their entire body and face. We're not discouraging them to attend Mosques.

Migrants aren't a different story. When you decide to pick up your life and move elsewhere, you must follow the majority way of that country. If I decided to move to an Islamic country, I would HAVE to wear their attire and behave by their rules. What makes that any different for them?

You're saying it's okay for them to exercise their rights everywhere, but it isn't okay for anyone else.


message 39: by Kent (new)

Kent Babin | 176 comments Zee wrote: "I debated whether to jump in here ... because *confession time*, I am a Muslim, and I wear a head scarf. No, I am not oppressed; my husband didn't force me to. It was a personal choice, something I..."

Really well said, Zee! I was actually just in Mauritius for 3 weeks in June (stayed in Deux Freres). The cultural dynamic you have is definitely something to be proud of.


message 40: by Denise (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Zee wrote: "how is wearing a long-sleeved tee, cargo pants, and a beanie with my hair wrapped in it any different from a Muslim woman wearing a long-sleeved dress and has a piece of silk wrapped around her hair? How come the beanie girl is not considered oppressed?"

My comments regarding oppression were aimed at burqas and niqabs, full body and facial hiding, not a piece of silk wrapped around someone's hair or long-sleeves. I live in Germany, where there are many Muslims. I have yet to see a Muslim wearing a burqa. Many wear what you wear, while others wear regular clothing.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-debates-a-ban-on-burqas-and-other-muslim-veils-a-1108562.html Obviously, it's an issue in so many places.


message 41: by Mehreen (last edited Oct 14, 2016 02:05AM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Denise wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Foreigners in the Middle East don't have to. They do it to better assimilate so they can do their job without difficulty. That's all. They neither like it nor wish to do it for a lo..."

Why? Why do they have to change clothes? That is a part of their faith they can't do without. Just as important as going to mosque, or a church. Would nuns change their head scarf? No. Now you'll say most Muslims are not nuns. Maybe not. They don't have be. Nuns are doing what their religion has decreed them to do just as Muslims are doing whatever it is they have to do. That should be a personal choice! I haven't heard of any foreigners migrating to the Middle East. They go there for a short period of time and then leave. Whereas migrants stay. Yeah you maybe right about the USA foreign policy which I am not aware of. If we fight for human rights. We might as well do it properly to include all humans. Not just those in position of power.


message 42: by GR (new)

GR Oliver | 479 comments What I find about the hijab, it alienates who are not familiar with the custom, e.g., wearing the cross by Christians, or the Mogen David by Jews, or any religious symbol can or is offensive to some.

My wife and I have taken in a family from Aleppo, Syria, to help guide them into German society. The wife told me that it says in the Koran, a woman SHOULD be modest and cover her head and shoulders--not bundle up. The word: should, doesn't mean must or required or necessary to be a good woman. There are many Muslim women in our town that don't wear the hijab. They were born and raised here, and have taken on western customs. They too find the hijab offensive and the burqa alien. The ones I see who wear the hijab, are the newly arrived. They bring their traditions with them. It's hard to break with traditions, e.g., in Africa and South American jungles many women run around naked, except maybe a piece of jewelry around the neck or on the head. If she forgets to put it on, she'll feel naked, and rush back into the hut to put it on. Likewise, with Muslims, they feel naked without their hijab.

My question is with the men. If they want their woman to follow the examples in the Koran, then the men should do the same. If Islam is a religion of equality, as they say, why don't the men follow it to the letter? They should cover up, too.

The problem isn't so much the custom. Many of these people don't want to stay here. They want to return to their country, and most likely will go back. They are unwilling to integrate, learn the language, and seek employment.

The western culture is a shock to them. Many of these people don't understand western values. It isn't that they feel superior to the west, it's because they don't understand our ways. We have social laws. They have religious laws. Our system doesn't make sense to them. I find their ways are archaic, and don't fit in western society.


message 43: by Denise (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Mehreen wrote: "Why? Why do they have to change clothes? That should be a personal choice! They go there for a short period of time and leave. Whereas migrants stay. Yeah you maybe right about the USA foreign policy which I am not aware of. If we fight for human rights. We might as well do it properly to include all humans. Not just those in position of power. "

Did you look at my links? Do you honestly believe that if I decided to move to Iran because I fell in love with an Iranian, that I could wear my t-shirt and jeans? That I could get away with not wearing a head scarf? Come on, Mehreen, I get that you are about human rights, but if something affects many people around the world than it is something to be examined. Example: If more people than not said that you were a vindictive person, but you disagreed, does that mean all the people are wrong?

Mehreen wrote: I haven't heard of any foreigners migrating to the Middle East.

And why do you think that is?


message 44: by Mehreen (last edited Oct 14, 2016 02:12AM) (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments GR wrote: "What I find about the hijab, it alienates who are not familiar with the custom, e.g., wearing the cross by Christians, or the Mogen David by Jews, or any religious symbol can or is offensive to som..."


That is true too. We are talking about the head scarf only. But some people have taken it further to include burqa, and niqab. I am not from the Middle East and wear neither burqa, nor the hijab or a head scarf. But I feel it is wrong to vilify people for their cultural values.


message 45: by Denise (last edited Oct 14, 2016 02:15AM) (new)

Denise Baer | 593 comments Mehreen wrote: "GR wrote: "What I find about the hijab, it alienates who are not familiar with the custom, e.g., wearing the cross by Christians, or the Mogen David by Jews, or any religious symbol can or is offen..."

Okay, I will remove myself from the conversation, because my opinions are only directed at the burqa, full body and facial covering. As for the scarves, I don't care. Some of them are pretty. I'd argue hats being worn by gang bangers before I would head scarves.

So I apologize for not following the conversation of head scarves.


message 46: by Mehreen (new)

Mehreen Ahmed (mehreen2) | 1911 comments Denise wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Why? Why do they have to change clothes? That should be a personal choice! They go there for a short period of time and leave. Whereas migrants stay. Yeah you maybe right about the ..."

I don't know. Do you?


message 47: by Kent (new)

Kent Babin | 176 comments Denise wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Why? Why do they have to change clothes? That should be a personal choice! They go there for a short period of time and leave. Whereas migrants stay. Yeah you maybe right about the ..."

I'd say Iran is the extreme example. It doesn't pretend at all to be a place open to freedom of expression. The law about head coverings has been in place for a while and applies equally to all women. You can still wear your t-shirt and jeans, but you have to at least partially cover your hair while out of doors.

Other Muslim countries (Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Morocco, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.) do not have such rules. There is a recommendation to dress modestly to avoid unwanted male attention, but I think this attention is less about what you wear and more about where you're from, sadly.


message 48: by Segilola (new)

Segilola Salami (segilolasalami) | 405 comments WOW lots of strong opinions here

Jumping in, let me play devils advocate: Do migrants emigrate to the west because the west first went to their homeland and caused havoc? Surely when you go destroy a land, you cannot expect the homeless to not come to your land? Surely you cannot expect them to drop their way of life to suit you their destroyer?

What I don't know with regards to the French ban is if their ruling is specifically against the muslim type head scarves or all scarves worn by women. I can't speak for all of Africa but in Nigeria, most native attires are not complete with a head gear of some sort. Whilst I'm not religious, does that mean I would be committing a crime if I wore a head scarf?

Most afro-caribbean women wear head scarves to protect their hair from the elements. Whilst it is again not religious, does that mean it is a crime to do so?

To answer the original question, France is a very racist country from what I have heard from a number of people, so whilst I think it is a very nonsensical thing they have done, I am not surprised.

In a utopian world, where no one has destroyed the other, I think when someone of one culture visits another culture, the visitor should respect the culture of the land he is visiting. At the same time, the hosts should make the visitor feel welcome by accepting their culture.


message 49: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14895 comments Mehreen wrote: "We live in a global economy. It is impossible to stay put... Are you saying that people would stop wearing hats if they moved to the East or where the veil is prevalent?."

That's a big overstatement, as most population of any country for all I know, including Russia and Ukraine -:), stay put and migrants represent only a certain per cent...
Something a little lighter about mother Russia -:). Peter the Great, when he was young studied in Europe (Holland maybe), and when he returned home and became a tsar he ordered cutting beards of elders and youth alike, because he wanted to bring Europe into Russia, to modernize the country. It was a big insult to the elders, to the centuries-long tradition, but he succeeded in implementing this decree, battles and modernization alike. A drunkard and not exactly a gentle guy, he's still remembered as one of the best and progressive monarchs in Russian empire. I guess if you have an absolute power, it's kinda easier to enforce any rules -:)
As of migration - it's a personal choice - what's more important: earning more money in foreign country or preserving your tradition in your own. Depending on the receiving country: sometimes a compromise is needed, sometimes - not. You come voluntarily and you can leave likewise, but you need to respect the culture, rules of the place where you stay... And by the way, I'm not sure the restriction of facial covering is enforced that much..


message 50: by Nik (new)

Nik Krasno | 14895 comments Zee wrote: "I debated whether to jump in here ... because *confession time*, I am a Muslim, and I wear a head scarf. No, I am not oppressed; my husband didn't force me to. It was a personal choice, something I..."

Yeah, I hear these wonderful things about Mauritius and its harmony is truly adorable. But that's exactly your culture - the religious and cultural pluralism.... I think it's a wonderful example of multi-cultural co-existence.
In my opinion, it's a bit different where a much -less- heterogenic, indigenous society accepts new-comers with a very different culture and religion...


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