Mod Chat

[KT, Desperate Diplomat]

I think sigma should be less of a request it role and more of the type where we pick and choose people to offer it to if necessary

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

Epsilon isn't really sexist. That's an actual role that lies within real wolf packs. The females generally care for the pups more than the males, who spend their time hunting and protecting. It's probably because the females provide milk. And also, I didn't say that males can't be epsilons, I just said that the majority of the time they are female. KT and I agreed on these a while back. I was getting her okay on the descriptions.

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

*steady glare*
Yeah... because mammary glands mean they just automatically spew milk for all the babies... totally. More girls are stay at home moms for all the babies, and more dudes go off to hunt and guard and protect. Totally not sexist.

[KT, Desperate Diplomat]

Epsilon aren't all mothers. They take care of pups, yeah. But they also take care of actual mothers. And males can do it to. They're just less likely to want to. There's more females than males in the world and usually in RP groups, so there's still about an even number doing the working.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

Well I don't mean for all of the babies. I mean, like in actual pack of wolves, out in the wild, they are usually mothers of the pups, and watch out for the pups, and feed them. That's just how it goes. Animals aren't sexist. I wasn't talking about werewolves in that case. And like I said, I didn't say men couldn't be epsilons.

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

I mean, I just hate the idea of a 'motherhood' clan focusing on women on raising kids. HATE it. It is SUPER sexist. Don't families just take care of their own kids, though? I mean, having the role of daycare doesn't exactly sound great. And it is catered towards girls. Just because men 'can' be Epsilon doesn't mean that it makes it any less sexist. It sounds pretty much like sifted healer work for mom's and kids. People can still have jobs and not really have work, I mean, there's a town and all that. Daycare is a job... not who someone is.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

But we're talking about a pack of wolves who instinctively care for their young. And it isn't like people regularly go to the mainland, a lot of the wolves stay on the island. It's sexist in OUR terms, because we aren't wolves. Just as having soul mates in real life would be kind of stupid, especially if there are no emotional connections made beforehand and they just "click".

And who's to say that this is a functional society? There are obviously things wrong with it. Slavery isn't morally right and yet that's a big plot point in this story. Hell, it could even give you a chance to create a character "born" to be an epsilon who rebels against who she naturally gravitates towards being, and is expected to be.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

I think it's fair to say that if slavery exists in this society, sexism wouldn't be too frowned upon anyways. Just another thing people would strive to fix.

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

They're wolves, but they're also human, too. And sexism isn't a thing. The Alphas are mostly female. The society is pretty equal right now. Adding in a sexist role, because, hot damn, we totally need sexism! -It's ridiculously awful!

Slavery doesn't exist because people were born to be slaves. It's the society's forced coercion of an entire people. This should be an occupation. People shouldn't be born to have their future be foretold! Ah- wonderous thing! -to be daycare workers.

Just like wolves aren't born smelling like slaves and forced to be slaves because they naturally were born into that role. A lot about this is choice. I mean, people choose to be Sentinels or Hunters or Healers. Only a small part is fated, like Serens. Alphas and Betas mostly fight for their role and maintain it through bloodlines, gaining the scent through their prestige.

This would be the worst update we ever implemented. I am 100% against Epsilon.

[KT, Desperate Diplomat]

People choose to be epsilon too. None of these roles are born into besides slaves at this point. No one is born an alpha, a sentinel, an epsilon, whatever. Any one could choose to be epsilon, and anyone could choose not to be.

[KT, Desperate Diplomat]

Oh and yeah serens aren't a thing here so no one's born into anything at all.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

Honestly you're so difficult. It isn't sexism. Men can also be epsilons. Epsilons are there to watch after pups when their parents are doing their own jobs, like I don't know, hunting maybe, or going out into the mainland, or going into other pack territory, or doing ANYTHING else other than taking care of their pups.

Like I said, this is a dysfunctional society. Just because there are a few female alphas, does not mean sexism cannot exist. It does not mean we NEED sexism. No, it would add depth to the society, rather than slavery being the only thing wrong with it because oh yea, societies are all just perfect.

They are NOT daycare workers. They are teachers. They do not HAVE to be epsilons. They are chosen at a young age yes, but they can stray if they want to, no one's forcing them.

I can get rid of the whole, they can be chosen at birth, if it's SOOOO sexist for you. But that wasn't the main point of the whole rank itself, and it's not sexist if the members of that particular rank are willing to be within it.

Your morals have nothing to do with the morals of an entire society. You think I enjoy slavery? No. But that's a trait of this society, and I find it interesting to roleplay. You think I like having my alpha born to become the alpha? No, that's not what he wanted to be, but due to societal standards, that's who he has to become because responsibility, because of expectations and honor or whatever.

It can't all be about you, and what you think is right morally.

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

"However, the epsilon cannot just be anyone, most females are born into it, with senses that are stronger than the average werewolf, and a much gentler attitude, even as children themselves. The vast majority of the time, their destined rank can be sensed even as young pups, and they are raised to become an Epsilon."
^^^Sexist

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

Anyways, I'm done arguing about this.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

"More commonly female"

not to mention I said we could tweak that bit. But you still cling to it because it's the only standing argument.

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

Right, because making an entire caste system of daycare workers, having them display traits early in childhood, then grooming them towards that role... we definitely need that. It's tasteless, dry, and horrendous.

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

And of course there are other things wrong with the societies! You can work with what we already have rather than invent the most bull-shitted role in the world just to say, oh, this adds depth. And you are literally pissing me off SO much. I never cuss, not even in RP, but this, you pressing to just taint this group with THIS. Of all ideas or things, THIS.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

How many times did I say we were getting rid of that?
It's not an entire caste either, it's a few people who watch pups because they WANT to.
You just have to be right don't you, like you just will not stop, even when you do get your way. You helplessly cling to this argument even when it's been resolved and we've gotten rid of the sensed at birth and the mainly female part. What else do you want?

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

"Your morals have nothing to do with the morals of an entire society. You think I enjoy slavery? No. But that's a trait of this society, and I find it interesting to roleplay. You think I like having my alpha born to become the alpha? No, that's not what he wanted to be, but due to societal standards, that's who he has to become because responsibility, because of expectations and honor or whatever.

It can't all be about you, and what you think is right morally. "

No, it has to do with what is common sense. Not off my personal morality. Literally. People born to do daycare. That's the only thing special about it. Your whole idea could just be summed up by my creating a new location in the town labeled "Daycare" with the body text, "A sunny building painted with rainbows and flowers where kids go to learn and play while their parents work to uphold the packs". Because literally, your whole idea is that women are born to do daycare. WTF? Why is this even an argument?!

[KT, Desperate Diplomat]

We already said that they wouldn't be born into it!

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

Maybe because pups can't always control their shifts and them turning into a fuckin werewolf in the middle of a daycare would probably MAYBE scare the holy living hell out of daycare workers


and maybe because some people only trust their own pack to watch pups

and maybe because pups need to be taught by other werewolves in a secluded forest area where they wont harm humans or scare them?

and also
Hoooow maaany ttiiiiimes do i have to say that women and men can both be epsilons, and that they wont be born into the role. Happy birthday, you got your wish buddy. Now what do you want, a cookie?

[KT, Desperate Diplomat]

I'll take that cookie

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

Look, buster, I've been here since the start of group one. I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking this horrible idea because it would literally exponential-ize the suspension of disbelief required for someone to join the group, engage in it, and enjoy it.

You're attacking me because I disagree with you. Because I'm the nag. I'm the one pushing my beliefs on you. Blah. NO. I'm the one who sees how awfully stupid this idea is. And I have no frigging clue how you think it's an acceptable implementation!

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

Okay, but like, how is it stupid really?
We've gotten rid of everything you see wrong with it.
So I don't see why you're still complaining about people who would willingly watch and teach young pups while their parents take on the roles that they have in the group.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

ƘƬ ~๓ครợยєгค๔є ợยєєภ~ wrote: "I'll take that cookie"

man I kind of want cookies now

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

EXACTLY! EXACTLY MY FRIGGING POINT!!!

EPSILON
ARE
DAYCARE
WORKERS.

THE
DAYCARE
WORKERS
ARE
WOLVES.

THEIR
ROLE
OF
EPSILON
IS
LITERALLY
POINTLESS.

IT
IS
POINTLESS
UNLESS
YOU
INGRAIN
SEXISM
INTO
ITS
CORE.

WOLVES
MAY
HAVE
THE
OCCUPATION
OF
DAYCARE
WORKERS.

BUT
IT
IS
A
JOB,
NOT
THEIR
IDENTITY.

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

Ug, I'm done here. I am so ticked off that you can't even see common sense or reason. I'm just not looking at this chat for a while.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

And hunters catch animals. That'd be considered an occupation. But they identify as it.
Sentinels identify as warriors.
Why couldn't an Epsilon identify as a caregiver?
That's essentially what the Healers do, they're caregivers for older people.
Epsilons are not daycare workers. And even if they were, why is that a bad thing? Why is it bad that they'd willingly want to watch pups? Why is it bad that the parents of pups wouldn't want to put their kid in the hands of someone they do not trust, of someone that could possibly be in a different pack, or even worse, a human?
Why is it bad that epsilons would train pups to control their shifts, and help them learn the very basic foundation of being a werewolf.
There is nothing wrong with caregivers being a rank that someone would identify as. Not to mention that it would come with a lot of honor, helping to raise the next generation of wolves for the pack. Being trusted to in the first place.

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

You know nothing of this group.
THERE ARE NO HUMANS ON THE ISLAND.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

why would there be a daycare center on the island filled with a bunch of wolves that is divided into territories?
And what territory would it rest in?
And what wolf pack would it even be run by?

I'm talking about one on the mainland

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

who would even put the time into building a daycare center on an island inhabited by salty wolves

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

What about the town area, which is literally neutral territory...??? Lunar and Solar get along really well. They're not even enemies.

And... we don't even have mainland RP topics.

[KT, Desperate Diplomat]

Yeah lunar and solar don't get along well. They're not enemies, but they're definitely not allies. The town is a safe, neutral area but they'll fight and kill each other if they cross into each other's territories

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

Okay that's my bad, I thought the town was in the maindland
that still doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that even the solar alpha dislikes lunar pack. There is still tension.

but you know what

slams head into nearest solid object
gotta blast

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

Okay, so after we come up to a valid agreement, I propose we delete the bickering. People watch the Mod Chat and having mods visibly fight isn't a great idea.

[KT, Desperate Diplomat]

I've figured out part of the problem here y'all.

Ilsa, Mage is a girl as well.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

What's the problem?

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

Okay, so what's your proposal, KT?

Doesn't really matter, does it?

[KT, Desperate Diplomat]

So first of all, the personal thing. Ilsa, I asked if you would mind if I asked Mage to join and you said it'd be fine. She's great so at least give her a chance. Mage, I've known Ilsa on here for forever so be nice.

Then, actual issues. What other issues do you have with Epsilon, Ilsa? We've changed literally everything you asked about. They're not even mostly female anymore, and they're not chosen from birth.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

Fine. I apologize for being aggressive. Though I'm not really mad, and I don't hold anything against her.

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

It's like saying we need a rank for fast food workers or bookstore clerks. It's pretty much an insignificant occupation made significant by the fact that it was twisted to be sexist as all get out. It makes sense, there's no reason to have it. Like I said, I could literally just make a daycare in the city and problem solved. There is NO REASON to have Epsilon other than for the novelty of gratuitous sexism.

I'm trying so, so hard right now, KT, you have no idea. I disagree with one idea out of four and it becomes a gigantic fight.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

"and maybe because some people only trust their own pack to watch pups

and maybe because pups need to be taught by other werewolves in a secluded forest area with members of their own pack?"

or maybe because that's a real role in actual wolf packs?

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

there is no sexism involved, I really wish you'd just drop that

[KT, Desperate Diplomat]

Since the packs aren't best friends, I doubt any of them would trust their children to another pack or a loner

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

Again.
THERE ARE NO HUMANS ON THE ISLAND.

And if so, each pack could have their own daycare center. I mean, seriously.

And again, they are human as well, MoH. They aren't 100% based on a wolf pack. They have a complex hierarchy and, by the way, the ability to think and decide.

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

~The Mage of Heart~ (Aka. Cry) wrote: "there is no sexism involved, I really wish you'd just drop that"

I mean to say, without the novelty of useless sexism thrown into the role, the idea of Epsilon is pointless.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

I edited that post, yea I realized that

and doesn't two daycare centers just sound redundant and frankly, a little ridiculous?

[Ilsa, The soopa butt kicka]

Then why even have them?!
Epsilon = Daycare
Daycare = Ridiculous
Epsilon = Ridiculous

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

im honestly having a hard time understanding why you're so incredibly determined to have your way and make two separate daycares. Not to mention that they'd be in town, and the pups would be vulnerable away from the pack.

[The Outsider (Whales or Whatever), Ms. Enforcer mod]

because epsilon isn't just a daycare
daycare would be in town
pups would be vulnerable in town

two daycares would be redundant

one daycare in town would also be redundant and inconvenient
and kinda dangerous
it would bring more tension between solar and lunar

epsilon are caregivers
they teach
they're main role is to help pups understand how to control shifts and their anger
to teach
to help them trust their pack

what is there to not understand

what is there to complain about