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The Trollope Project - Archives > Barchester Towers: Chapters 7-12 - July 24-July 30

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message 1: by Lynnm (last edited Jul 24, 2016 04:03AM) (new)

Lynnm | 3027 comments Ahhh...we meet the Stanhope family in this section. I must admit, they amuse me. :-) But clearly, Trollope is less amused by their antics.

One, what did you think of the Stanhope family, especially the children (if you can call growth adults children)? Charlotte is manipulative, Madeline is flirtatious (although I could think of a stronger word), and Ethelbert (good 'ol Bertie) is lazy amongst other things.

Two, what point do you think Trollope is making with the Stanhope family?

Three, the Stanhopes are front and center at Mrs. Proudie's reception. How did Mr. Proudie react to Madeline and to Bertie? How did Mrs. Proudie react to Madeline and to Bertie? And how did Mr. Slope react to Madeline and to Bertie?

Four, I was quite proud of Mr. Harding for standing up to Mr. Slope in "Slope versus Harding." However, I think that Mr. Slope will now get what he wants...someone other than Mr. Harding to take the warden position at Hiram Hospital. Poor Mr. Harding.


message 2: by Lori, Moderator (last edited Jul 24, 2016 07:42AM) (new)

Lori Goshert (lori_laleh) | 1425 comments Mod
Wow, "the Signora" made me feel sorry for Mrs. Proudie! She is really intolerable. I can't stand people like that, who live to feed of others' misery. Although we have to wonder about how she came to be what she is: I wonder if her husband's cruelty played a part? Imagine what he must have put her through to leave her a cripple! But then Trollope implies she was always this way (dressing up to watch a lover (probably) die in a duel.

Seems like this book is going to end up in a contest as to who can be the worst character: Slope, Madeline, Bertie (his form of disrespect was probably considered nearly criminal in those days), Charlotte and her parents for making Madeline and Bertie what they are, the Bishop for letting Slope loose in Barchester...

I hope there is a happy ending for Mr. Harding. He deserves it. I was proud of him too.

I don't get how Slope has a way with women? He sounds repulsive! Who wants an intolerant, slimy man like that around?

So many characters and families to keep track of, and it's easy to forget the details between readings. Would be easier to read it from a hard copy book, but the English language section of our library is a bit limited (and I doubt I could have kept the book for 10 weeks anyways).


message 3: by Alicatte (new)

Alicatte | 4 comments I felt that with this new section, I am finally getting involved with the book and the characters. I like Madeline and that she gets under Mrs. Proudie's skin. The "crippled" is usually portrayed as some sad sack creature who is grateful and insightful, so I find this character refreshing. I do like that the fact the Stanhopes really don't give a hoot what others think (indifferent, as Trollope describes them). Perhaps that is why Trollope is using them -- as a counter to other characters who are always thrusting, parrying, and reacting to others' moves.


message 4: by Robin P, Moderator (new)

Robin P | 2227 comments Mod
As far as why women like Slope - Somehow Slope has a knack for knowing how to say the right things. He even makes Eleanor Bold start to change her mind about him. Of course, he's a total hypocrite and doesn't mean any of it. With Madeline, basically all men fall in love with her and Slope is just one of them. He's nothing special to her except that she perceives that it bothers their hostess, Mrs. Proudie, that Slope has deserted her for Madeline. Both Madeline and Mrs. Proudie, and even Mrs. Grantly are wasted in their times. They all should have been politicians or business owners.


message 5: by Lori, Moderator (new)

Lori Goshert (lori_laleh) | 1425 comments Mod
Robin wrote: "Both Madeline and Mrs. Proudie, and even Mrs. Grantly are wasted in their times. They all should have been politicians or business owners. "

That's right! Madeline would be a Kardashian-like figure, Mrs. Proudie would be a politician (or CEO), Mrs. Grantly would also be a politician, diplomat, or lawyer, and Charlotte would be a lobbyist (but probably not a very ethical one).

I know we were talking about the ladies, but Bertie would have been that guy who drove his truck up to Alaska and got lost in the wilderness (although he's the kind of character who never seems to suffer any bad consequences for his actions - or at least not yet, looking forward to seeing what happens to him - so he would be rescued).


message 6: by Deborah, Moderator (last edited Jul 24, 2016 01:28PM) (new)

Deborah (deborahkliegl) | 4493 comments Mod
Lots of manipulation on so many fronts. It's making it hard for me to like many of the characters, although they are expertly drawn. Definitely a nasty game of politics - both on the social level and on the church level.

I feel the indifference exhibited by the Stanhopes really add to the negativity. They are clueless about how any of their actions affect anybody but themselves. I think Trollope is saying indifference is not a benign entity.


message 7: by Margaret (new)

Margaret | 50 comments Doesn't Trollope talk about the Stanhopes as actually lacking in feeling? Which to me is rather sad on their part, I mean, FOR them, and which makes me think of them less as ignoring or being indifferent, and more as ....just lacking the ability to pick up emotional cues that others drop. Lacking an ability to care.

Which, given their parents, makes sense. Bc neither parent, I imagine, would have been particularly affectionate or compassionate or nurturing. I picture three children pretty muc left to raise themselves as best they could, result, Charlotte, Bertie and Madeline.


message 8: by Margaret (new)

Margaret | 50 comments I have to say that my love of Madeline STanhope is hugely driven by the fact that in the mini-series she is played by the beautiful and incandescent and somewhat mischievous Susan Hampshire. (who also played a brilliant BEcky Sharpe in a long-ago version of Vanity Fair--Thackery, not the magazine....)


message 9: by Deborah, Moderator (new)

Deborah (deborahkliegl) | 4493 comments Mod
Margaret wrote: "Doesn't Trollope talk about the Stanhopes as actually lacking in feeling? Which to me is rather sad on their part, I mean, FOR them, and which makes me think of them less as ignoring or being indif..."

I don't remember Trollope saying they were unfeeling, but I could have missed it. My concentration has not been the best this week. I do recall the word indifference being used.


message 10: by Hedi (new)

Hedi | 978 comments Deborah, they were called "heartless", "heartlessness" as the great family characteristic.
I have not read all the chapters yet, and will comment in a few days. However, I really like the comical aspects so far.


message 11: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 2927 comments Mod
The Stanhopes as a whole are not a likable family, but on the other hand they are not manipulative. They just don't care about anything or anyone, only their own comfort.
Here is the quote about the family:
The great family characteristic of the Stanhopes might probably be said to be heartlessness; but this want of feeling was, in most of them, accompanied by so great an amount of good nature as to make itself but little noticeable to the world.
I think that the scene in which the sofa tears Mrs. Proudie's dress was funny. I don't think much of Madeline, who is generally a flirt and a show-off. But Mrs. Proudie has power and can cause a lot of damage, so I enjoyed the incident with the dress. I am sure she wore so many undergarments that nothing was revealed anyway.
Mr. Slope, in the interview with Mr. Harding, is true to his colours as an odious character. Poor Mr. Harding. But it would be nice if Mr. Quiverful with his fourteen children got a better position. But I loathe the way Slope lied to the Bishop. I hope he gets caught out.


message 12: by Deborah, Moderator (new)

Deborah (deborahkliegl) | 4493 comments Mod
Rosemarie wrote: "The Stanhopes as a whole are not a likable family, but on the other hand they are not manipulative. They just don't care about anything or anyone, only their own comfort.
Here is the quote about th..."


I find Madeline to be manipulative. Her goal was flirting with the men and making the women angry. Sounds manipulative to me.


message 13: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 2927 comments Mod
Good point, Deborah. She is a real Drama Queen as well, being carried and placed artistically on a sofa, making sure her bracelets were on the correct wrist.


message 14: by Robin P, Moderator (new)

Robin P | 2227 comments Mod
Absolutely, for Madeline, it's all about her, and other people are only there as conquests and tools.

Bertie reminds me of Richard in Bleak House who kept changing professions, though in his case he couldn't afford it.

I thought the Stanhopes must have other money to live as they did, but it seems his church money is financing them. I suppose it was cheaper to live in Italy. They are all doing absolutely nothing for the money. The vicar who does all the work probably gets the same salary he would get if Stanhope was there and doing his share.No one has missed the Stanhopes. It's a bit like I used to say in an office job - our management could all be away for days at a convention and it didn't really matter. If we workers had been gone, the company would come to a halt.


message 15: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 2927 comments Mod
I used to be a substitute teacher and to a small number of schools regularly. Some schools had excellent principals, in others the school was run by the office staff while the principal was doing who knows what.


message 16: by Deborah, Moderator (new)

Deborah (deborahkliegl) | 4493 comments Mod
Robin wrote: "Absolutely, for Madeline, it's all about her, and other people are only there as conquests and tools.

Bertie reminds me of Richard in Bleak House who kept changing professions, though in his case ..."


That really bothered me too Robin.


message 17: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 2927 comments Mod
Bertie sounds like a perfect candidate for Monty Python's "Upper class twit" awards.
The sad thing is that there were a lot of people in the upper classes in Britain who felt perfectly justified in living an idle life and getting paid for it. The Vesey Stanhopes are an extreme example, but I am certain that they were based on real situations. The same happened in other churches as well. The higher ups get the money and the underpaid lower orders do the work.


message 18: by Alicatte (new)

Alicatte | 4 comments Rosemarie wrote: "The Stanhopes as a whole are not a likable family, but on the other hand they are not manipulative. They just don't care about anything or anyone, only their own comfort.
Here is the quote about th..."


I actually like the Stanhopes... That is, I find them entertaining, and I like the energy and antics that these characters add to the novel.


message 19: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 2927 comments Mod
The Stanhopes are certainly a frivolous and entertaining family, and I would much rather spend time with them than Mrs. Proudie!


message 20: by Tracey (new)

Tracey (traceyrb) I am getting a real kick out of this book that I am sorry to say I am reading ahead. However I will try to join in the discussions.

I love Trollope's surnames and Stanhope apparently means; from low ground amid hills. Maybe meaning nothing great about this family. I like that Madeleine refuses to let her disability crush her spirit even though she uses her energies for hurtful reasons. In the Bible the Lord chastises those who are lukewarm, neither hot or cold and I think this would fit the Stanhopes; they don't have strong feelings on anything and therefore are in a sort of stagnant place without progress. This is a waste of the gift of life. I believe we are meant to engage in life and not just let it pass us by, and in engaging to learn to behave and think and feel with charity and courage. At least Mr Slope, for all his odiousness, has worked to get where he is and has beliefs and principles. I could forgive him much because at least he is trying to be something, although using the wrong methods currently.


message 21: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments Lori wrote: I don't get how Slope has a way with women? He sounds repulsive! Who wants an intolerant, slimy man like that around?.."

He flatters them. He's attentive. He pretends to care about what they care about. He actually seems to listen to them. He shows interest in their children. He's single and fairly young and with a good position. If you aren't threatened by his religious views, seems like young women, especially one with a child, would find him a reasonable way to spend some otherwise boring time (weren't the lives of unmarried women of the time fairly boring?)


message 22: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments Deborah wrote: "I think Trollope is saying indifference is not a benign entity.

Interesting comment. Though they really don't interfere with or go out of their way to bother other people; if everybody just ignored them they would be perfectly happy. If other people want to be bothered by them, isn't that on the other people, and not the Stanhopes?

It's not like Slope or Mrs. Proudie, who do go out of their way to make trouble for others.


message 23: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments Alicatte wrote: "I actually like the Stanhopes... That is, I find them entertaining, and I like the energy and antics that these characters add to the novel.
."


I'm largely with you there. They do no evil, and provide me, at least, with some amusement.


message 24: by LindaH (new)

LindaH | 97 comments Lynnm wrote: "Two, what point do you think Trollope is making with the Stanhope family?
"


It seems to me that Trollope has, by bringing in the Stanhopes, broadened and enlivened the game he has begun. After Slope upsets the establishment with his sermon, the clergy, led by the Archdeacon, unite against him. So Slope looks abroad for support. He intends to use the Stanhopes to strengthen his hand in Barchester church politics. He even finesses Dr Proudie's "disarrangement" (over his sermon) by arranging an event where the Proudies can meet the "hierarchal dignitaries".
It might have been a dry and sad game as in TW, but the Stanhopes' interaction with the "Proudie and Slope party" is delightful and funny.

The Stanhopes expose the Proudies for what they are. For instance, I think we get a good sense of the Bishop when he talks to Bertie. He thinks the young Stanhope is a count since Bertie treats him like a peer. My favorite line: Bertie says, "I once thought of being bishop myself."

To your question then, Lynnm, I think the point Trollope is making with the Stanhopes is that the church hierarchy at that time might just not be as sacrosanct as believed.


message 25: by Deborah, Moderator (new)

Deborah (deborahkliegl) | 4493 comments Mod
Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I think Trollope is saying indifference is not a benign entity.

Interesting comment. Though they really don't interfere with or go out of their way to bother other people; if ever..."


The Stanhopres are completely indifferent to the fact that he is not doing his job and collecting his pay - yet that affects those around him. Just one example. People who are indifferent to those around them can do damage to those around them. That's not on the receiving ends issue - it is on the senders


message 26: by Deborah, Moderator (new)

Deborah (deborahkliegl) | 4493 comments Mod
Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I think Trollope is saying indifference is not a benign entity.

Interesting comment. Though they really don't interfere with or go out of their way to bother other people; if ever..."


I think Slope does go out of his way to manipulate and get his own way. He could care less what he does to others


message 27: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments Deborah wrote: "People who are indifferent to those around them can do damage to those around them. That's not on the receiving ends issue - it is on the senders ."

That's a very interesting philosophical question.

When people intentionally act to provoke a response from others, arguably they are at least partly responsible for the response. Slope's sermon is a great example of this.

But when as you say "The Stanhopres are completely indifferent to the fact that he is not doing his job and collecting his pay," are they really responsible for how other people react to that? Or is it on the reactors?

I think Madeline does have some intent to provoke certain responses. But that's a different thing. Why is Rev. Stanhope responsible for how people react to his spending his time in Como, letting others do his work for him., as long as the work gets done?


message 28: by Deborah, Moderator (new)

Deborah (deborahkliegl) | 4493 comments Mod
Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "People who are indifferent to those around them can do damage to those around them. That's not on the receiving ends issue - it is on the senders ."

That's a very interesting philo..."


He had a responsibility to do the job he accepted and is being paid to do. The people who are on the receiving end are being taken advantage of and may not have the means to make another choice. I can't really express well what I'm trying to say. A bit of brain fog here from some new medication to which means body is trying to adjust.


message 29: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 2927 comments Mod
If a person is paid to do a job and doesn't fullfill his responsibilities, he is being dishonest. The fact that many people do the same thing doesn't make it any more ethical.
Maybe Trollope wanted to draw attention to the corruption and dishonesty in the established church, in an amusing way. At first glance you think, "The Stanhopes are harmless. Sure, they have their faults, but they aren't hurting anyone." But if you think about it a bit more, they are robbing the church by not providing any services. It is hard to be a priest of a parish if you spend years idling about in a foreign country.
That being said, as characters in Barchester Towers they are certainly going to stir things up and it is going to be fun watching the plot develop.
As I said earlier, I really don't like Mrs. Proudie.


message 30: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments Deborah wrote: "He had a responsibility to do the job he accepted and is being paid to do. The people who are on the receiving end are being taken advantage of and may not have the means to make another choice. "

Well, he's doing his job by delegation, isn't he? Apparently all the sermons are being preached, all the marriages and baptisms and funerals celebrated, and so on.

Actually, given what we have been told of his character, it may well be that his parishioners are being better served by his vicars than they would be by him personally.


message 31: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments Deborah wrote: "The people who are on the receiving end are being taken advantage of and may not have the means to make another choice.."

Wasn't that true throughout the Church of England at the time? I'm not up on my church history, but I believe that all the clergy were appointed by the church, not chosen by the people. (Which I think was different in some of the dissenting faiths like Presbyterianism.) But I'm vague about all this, I admit.


message 32: by Hedi (last edited Jul 29, 2016 11:41PM) (new)

Hedi | 978 comments You all have already made so many good comments that I can hardly add anything.
I was also a little surprised that it was possible for the Stanhopes to live abroad and not do their job, but still getting paid. The argument whether this was a disadvantage or rather the opposite for the congregation is a different question, but it seems not right.
Therefore, I am not surprised that Bertie does not seem to be really willing to take on a profession. He has never learned what it is like to work. He also reminded me very much of Richard in Bleak House. His sense of reality is quite off, especially when mentioning that he himself thought of being a bishop while not even able or willing to finish his education for that. And his changing religion like others their jobs must be quite irritating for a group of Anglican clergymen.
Mr. Slope is manipulative and scheming. I wonder whether he found a new match in Madeline. As you have already mentioned, from that point of view the Stanhopes do stir up things. Madeline is spinning the men around her finger as Mr Slope is charming the women around him. Both are red flags for Mrs Proudie who wants to be the powerful and have Mr Slope as her "servant".
What do you think is Dr. Stanhope's view of his family?
I thought he was rather ashamed of them when they entered with the big entourage as he almost hides himself.

I like the novel more and more and enjoy the comical elements like the scene with the couch or the satirical elements like the invitation cards sent by this dreaded Sunday train. There are these little hints here and there that make you particularly smile.


message 33: by Janice (JG) (new)

Janice (JG) Deborah wrote: "Lots of manipulation on so many fronts. It's making it hard for me to like many of the characters, although they are expertly drawn. Definitely a nasty game of politics - both on the social level a..."

I was surprised by the tone this book has taken, suddenly it isn't at all like The Warden. I am probably going to be the one cloud over everyone's parade here, because I don't like Trollope's style in these chapters... it feels forced, and slapstick, and very premeditated to me, as if he is trying too hard to make these people ridiculous. Of course, it's probably just me because I am not a fan of sarcasm, and I have very little tolerance for satire unless it is extremely well done.

Right now I don't like any of these people (except Mr. Harding, and I understand he's not going to be around for long). I suspect Trollope is going to dedicate the story to shredding the Church of England for its hypocrisy and corruption. At the time this book was published I'm sure it was shocking and highly entertaining, but it will be more difficult for me to appreciate the politics of the church at that time because I'm not very familiar with either England or its formal church during this time period.

I want Trollope to dig deeper into these humans and this story, and give us something of more substance, and less comedic nasty silliness.


message 34: by Robin P, Moderator (last edited Jul 30, 2016 06:49PM) (new)

Robin P | 2227 comments Mod
Fair point, Janice, and humor especially can strike different people as funny or not. But I still think we don't need to know the politics of the church to appreciate the hypocrisy and scheming of the characters. The Stanhopes are cartoonish, and although Trollope gives more depth to characters like Grantly here than in the last book, the women are pretty flat. They are either sweet and naive like Eleanor and Mary Bold, or scheming like Mrs. Proudie, and to a lesser extent Mrs. Grantly, and in a different way, Madeline.

All that being said, i find it very entertaining and in its own way true to human nature. I guess I got used to the often one-note characters of Dickens.


message 35: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 2927 comments Mod
I am enjoying the book as well, one of the reasons being his writing and the other the fun characters. Even if I don't like all of them, the interaction between the various factions is fun to watch.


message 36: by Lori, Moderator (new)

Lori Goshert (lori_laleh) | 1425 comments Mod
Robin wrote: "They are either sweet and naive like Eleanor and Mary Bold, or scheming like Mrs. Proudie, and to a lesser extent Mrs. Grantly, and in a different way, Madeline"

Yes, this bothers me too. But I guess it's a common problem of male writers during this time. I think, so far, the most complex and human female character we have is Mrs. Grantly. Even Charlotte, who we don't see much of, is a "rounder" character than Madeline or Eleanor. Eleanor was obviously a favorite of Trollope's, and he wants her to be our favorite too, but he made her too perfect and sweet (not human), and therefore uninteresting.


message 37: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 2927 comments Mod
I agree with your assessment of Eleanor, Lori. She is too sweet and soft. I fear that is going to make her son a real "Mamma's boy" and cater to his every wish, since she dotes on him so much.


message 38: by Hedi (new)

Hedi | 978 comments Rosemarie wrote: "I agree with your assessment of Eleanor, Lori. She is too sweet and soft. I fear that is going to make her son a real "Mamma's boy" and cater to his every wish, since she dotes on him so much."

In some way she reminds me a little of Clara Copperfield in David Copperfield, though she has some family around and she might not be as naïve.


message 39: by Lily (new)

Lily (joy1) | 2632 comments Like several of you, I am deeply dissatisfied with Trollope's portrayal of the women in this story. To me, whether as a group or as individual characters, they are largely unsavory stereotypes, bimbos or bitches. As I recall, I have not been as unhappy with some of his other novels.

Although, like Janice, I am not particularly a fan of sarcasm, if I put aside my skepticism and recognize that Trollope was known for writing consistently day after day to create his output, I can enjoy the comedy and the skewer of human and institutional shortcomings, even marveling a bit at the range of Trollope's knowledge and insights.


message 40: by Lily (last edited Jul 31, 2016 07:13PM) (new)

Lily (joy1) | 2632 comments Lynnm wrote: "Two, what point do you think Trollope is making with the Stanhope family?l..."

Wasn't there a time before industrialization that the two paths available for sons after the first were the military or the church? Or was it law and the Church? (This was before industrialization and science opened up professions like engineering and medicine, time of which this story is set on the cusp or flowering, depending on the assessment.) Anyway, one of the things that has struck me in this story is the extent to which the Church is supporting so many families. What were the underlying sources of its wealth/income that it was able to do so?


message 41: by Everyman (new)

Everyman | 3582 comments Lily wrote: Wasn't there a time before industrialization that the two paths available for sons after the first were the military or the church? Or was it law and the Church?"

I think all three, church, law, military.


message 42: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 2927 comments Mod
That is what I thought as well, depending on the talents of the sons, with the military often being the most desirable.


message 43: by Tracey (new)

Tracey (traceyrb) Lily wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Two, what point do you think Trollope is making with the Stanhope family?l..."

Wasn't there a time before industrialization that the two paths available for sons after the first were..."

Yes, the first son inherited the father's wealth, title, property etc. the second went into the military, and later sons usually church and law/Government, or simply had to make their own way in the world. With child mortality rate being high this usually covered all sons grown to adulthood.


message 44: by Lily (new)

Lily (joy1) | 2632 comments Trollope refers to waiting for a war to happen. Is this the Boer's War? That seems a little early. What was the war of concern in the 1850's?

"The First Boer War, also known as the First Anglo-Boer War or the Transvaal War, was fought from 16 December 1880 until 23 March 1881 and was the first clash between the British and the Transvaal Boers."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...

Maybe the Crimean War? (1853-56)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...


message 45: by Lily (new)

Lily (joy1) | 2632 comments Have we gotten the back story of Mr. Bold's death? I went back and checked The Warden and didn't find it there. I've looked for it so far in Barchester Towers and haven't seen it. Am I not awake?


message 46: by Rosemarie, Moderator (new)

Rosemarie | 2927 comments Mod
I looked up John Bold on google, and one site suggested that John Bold's death was necessary for the plot-- the widow needs suitors. Who will she marry?
The author states at the beginning of BT that he really didn't think much of John Bold. After all, he caused an upheaval in Mr. Harding's life.


message 47: by Tracey (new)

Tracey (traceyrb) Lily wrote: "Trollope refers to waiting for a war to happen. Is this the Boer's War? That seems a little early. What was the war of concern in the 1850's?

"The First Boer War, also known as the First Anglo-Boe..."


I think it is the Crimean War as this is the right time period; mid 1850's

Central to Barchester Towers are reform pressures, and opposing resistance to reform, which were causing ructions with the Anglican Church in the mid-1850s. It crystallised into a struggle between 'high church’, and ‘low church’, orthodoxies. Conflict was sharpened by the so-called Papal Aggression, of 1850, when the Catholic Church set up an ‘establishment’ (i.e. parishes) in England. Were the mid-50s, it was wondered, the right time to seek some compromise with Rome or should Anglicanism go to all-out war against its old foe? - See more at: http://www.bl.uk/romantics-and-victor...


message 48: by Lily (last edited Jul 31, 2016 10:49PM) (new)

Lily (joy1) | 2632 comments Rosemarie wrote: "...one site suggested that John Bold's death was necessary for the plot-- the widow needs suitors. ..."

I saw that, too, but that doesn't mean Trollope couldn't have given some kind of remembrance of and closure for the poor guy -- bad accident, unforeseen illness, .... Usually tales and memories are at least hinted?


message 49: by Lily (new)

Lily (joy1) | 2632 comments Tracey wrote: "...Central to Barchester Towers are reform pressures..."

We can see the tremendous change that has occurred in the past 100 years, but we sometimes forget how much changed in the previous 100, as the world moved from largely an agricultural society to an industrial one, slavery was challenged, colonization was widespread, property rights shifted, horses were replaced, ....


message 50: by Lily (last edited Jul 31, 2016 11:06PM) (new)

Lily (joy1) | 2632 comments @31 Everyman wrote: "Which I think was different in some of the dissenting faiths like Presbyterianism...."

I know Methodism was considered a dissenting faith, but Presbyterianism?

PS -- "yes, in England," according to this article on English Dissenters (no details here): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English...


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