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Christian > The "Dark" Side

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message 1: by [deleted user] (last edited Jul 21, 2016 04:51AM) (new)

I know the Bible has many "less flattering" things and doctrines, and this is basically a discussion for those things.
Like who actually goes to hell, or does it even exist, should christians suffer, are men and women equal, how can a loving God send people to hell etc.
Just come up with anything that has been bothering you or that you would like to share with others :-)


message 2: by Celestial (new)

Celestial This is a really great thread to put up Felicity. I'll think up some questions.


message 3: by [deleted user] (new)

Celestial wrote: "This is a really great thread to put up Felicity. I'll think up some questions."

I can start if you want :-)

What are your thoughts on hell? Does it exist now? Are people tormented forever?


message 4: by Jasey (new)

Jasey | 33 comments It does exist now, and unless something changes in hell when Jesus comes again, I do think that people who go there will be tormented forever. What do you think?


message 5: by [deleted user] (new)

Jasey wrote: "It does exist now, and unless something changes in hell when Jesus comes again, I do think that people who go there will be tormented forever. What do you think?"

I think they will be tormented forever too. But, it might be that it's a different 'forever' to us than to God. We never know :-)
And I really get a terrible feeling when thinking about what a terrible place it is! It's so hot that you'd burn if you were on earth, but you don't, it smells TERRIBLE, and you will be there forever. *shivers* Sometimes I'd just like to run on the streets and beg people to repent so that they wouldn't get there :-(


message 6: by Jasey (new)

Jasey | 33 comments Yeah. It kind of gives me a sick feeling to think about it.


message 7: by Haley (new)

Haley S (haleyjs) Yeah, same here. It is really hard to think about though, when you have a friend or someone who you don't know is a Christian or not.


message 8: by [deleted user] (new)

I think we should just be as kind as we can to them and MAYBE we'll get a chance to talk about heaven and God sometime :-)
My granny (from dad's side) is an agnostic, but when granddad had leukemia she called mom and asked her to pray for him because she didn't know how to pray. And that has happened several times when she has been in trouble! :-)


message 9: by brooke1994 (last edited Jul 21, 2016 10:49PM) (new)

brooke1994  (formerlynarnian525) | 81 comments One of my other good friends is a pagan, which means she believes in neither heaven or hell, instead she believes in a place called summerland where you are reborn into another life. The idea of hell isn't an easy one to swallow, but if we love God then we also have to respect that he hates sin and he has to punish it. People can avoid hell by accepting Jesus as their personal savior.


message 10: by Celestial (last edited Jul 23, 2016 04:26PM) (new)

Celestial Unfortunately I also believe that hell is forever. It is quite hard to swallow especially since I know so many non Christians.

Many people just don't want to except God because they don't want to except the fact that there is a hell. My Grandma died a non Christian. My Grandpa is also a non Christian and I feel as if it would be even harder for him to except Christ into his heart because he has to come to the realization that his wife didn't go to heaven. Instead he believes that everyone goes to heaven.


message 11: by [deleted user] (new)

Celestial wrote: "Unfortunately I also believe that hell is forever. It is quite hard to swallow especially since I know so many non Christians.

Many people just don't want to except God because they don't want to..."


Unfortunately? It's just the truth, and I don't think it's shameful to believe in it :-)


message 12: by Celestial (new)

Celestial Neither do I. :)


message 13: by brooke1994 (new)

brooke1994  (formerlynarnian525) | 81 comments Celestial wrote: "Unfortunately I also believe that hell is forever. It is quite hard to swallow especially since I know so many non Christians.

Many people just don't want to except God because they don't want to..."


That's tough. I'm praying for your grandpa to find salvation!


message 14: by Celestial (new)

Celestial Thank you so much Rachel.


message 15: by brooke1994 (new)

brooke1994  (formerlynarnian525) | 81 comments Celestial wrote: "Thank you so much Rachel."

You're welcome


message 16: by Tirzah (new)

Tirzah Eleora | 9 comments Sooooo....if you lovelies don't mind me changing the topic somewhat...do you have any thoughts on the "cursing" Psalms? You know, the ones where the psalmist ask God to curse his enemies and those who afflict him. I'm embarrassed to confess that as I get older and I learn more and more and how despicably evil people can be I sometimes find myself feeling somewhat consoled that they'll go to hell forever if they don't repent. I mean, whenever I read a new story by or about people who were victims of human trafficking or s**ual assault I just feel so ANGRY at those people who literally spend their whole life making the lives of others a living hell and do it of their own free will. I can feel compassion for people who are enslaved to their own sinfull habits (drug addiction for example) and hurt those around them by their own abuse of themselves, but to me it seems much different when someone has the desire to deliberately hurt other people. Do you think it's wrong for a Christian to ask God to bring judgment on the wicked? Christ would have prayed all the Psalms, including the cursing ones, but obviously Christ would had a completely pure and righteous heart, so I don't know that it would be the same for us.

I don't really have any opinion on this...just wondering what you girls think:)


message 17: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Tirzah wrote: "Sooooo....if you lovelies don't mind me changing the topic somewhat...do you have any thoughts on the "cursing" Psalms? You know, the ones where the psalmist ask God to curse his enemies and those ..."

I know exactly how you feel--I also get really, REALLY upset sometimes thinking about all the people who spend their lives deliberately making others suffer.

(And sometimes, I have a really hard time understanding why God lets it happen . . . although at other times, I can clearly see that it's because He's made a choice to allow us freedom--freedom to do either good or evil. Because if we aren't free to choose evil, then we aren't truly free to choose good either . . .)

I never specifically thought about whether it's okay to pray that God will bring judgment on the wicked. I do remember reading once, though, a story/legend about a man in the days of the early Church (I don't remember his name) who was really, really angry at some specific sinners that he knew of. He wanted God to send them to Hell, because that's where he thought they belonged--but then he had a dream where he saw Jesus standing at the entrance to Hell trying to pull sinners back and keep them from falling in. He took the dream to mean that even though HE wanted to see these people punished eternally, God Himself would rather see them repent and be saved.

So I guess that concept is similar to the question you were asking? What I mean is, I guess the best way is to pray that God's will be done; and if God's will is that as many sinners be saved as possible . . . then maybe that's what we're supposed to try to want, as well?


message 18: by Tirzah (new)

Tirzah Eleora | 9 comments Yes, that's what I was asking, but you explained it better!
Good point...as Christains we are called to want what God wants regardless of how we may be feeling about it at the moment. Thanks:)


message 19: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Tirzah wrote: "Yes, that's what I was asking, but you explained it better!
Good point...as Christains we are called to want what God wants regardless of how we may be feeling about it at the moment. Thanks:)"


I'm glad it was helpful! I wish I could remember the name of the guy in the story--some theologian or other, I think.

Yeah . . . I guess, if you think about it, it probably hurts God when He has to watch sinners go to Hell . . . because He wants them all to be saved. (I actually only made that connection that just now. I always knew sin hurts God, but I never realized that the consequences of sin--having to send souls to Hell--hurts Him too. Wish I'd thought of that before.)


message 20: by Tirzah (new)

Tirzah Eleora | 9 comments Hmmm never thought of it that way. I guess I always assumed that since we all deserve hell God would see it as justice if we go there but I suppose from God's point of view justice was already satisfied on Calvary so it must be horrible for Him to watch people reject that. But on the flip side, does that imply that people go to hell against God's will? Perhaps God is like a parent who doesn't want to punish a child, but is willing to? The whole correlation between justice and mercy is definetly something I want to study more!


message 21: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Tirzah wrote: "Hmmm never thought of it that way. I guess I always assumed that since we all deserve hell God would see it as justice if we go there but I suppose from God's point of view justice was already sati..."

CONFUSING, RIGHT??? I agree with you that a sinner who chooses not to repent by his death and goes to Hell is being treated justly--he made his choice, after all--but I still think that the knowledge that that person COULD have been saved, had he only accepted Christ's redemption, must make God very sad.

Hmmmmm, I'm not sure. Personally, I believe that God doesn't WANT anybody to end up in hell--that is, He does not "will" that anyone should go there--but at the same time, if someone chooses Hell by their own actions and refusal to repent, then He sends them there because that's the only just way.

Yeah, it's probably a lot like a parent who knows they must enforce discipline for their child's own good, but still wishes they didn't have to punish the kid . . .


message 22: by Tirzah (new)

Tirzah Eleora | 9 comments Yes, I'd have to say I definitely agree with you that God never desires that people go to hell. Growing up, I was always in Calvinistic churches that taught that God only loves his chosen "elect" (<----it's a Biblical term, I know, I'm using the word in the context of the Reformed interpretation here) and feels satisfied in the justice of condemning the rest to hell. (Not saying all Calvinist have this harsh attitude, but it is the logical conclusion of the doctrine.) I feel that attitude really undermines how merciful God is and greatly reduces the power of the Gospel. God's justice allows hell but His mercy gives him overwhelming compassion that mourns those lost souls.


message 23: by [deleted user] (new)

Sorry for interrupting your discussion here, but I just had to say something about "cursing the wicked".
I remember reading about holy people praying for the wicked ones' judgement in Revelation. I don't remember how exactly it went (maybe you know the place?), I tried to search for it but didn't find it, unfortunately.


message 24: by Karis (new)

Karis There is some great discussion going on here girls. I'm sorry I missed some of it. I've been going at camp all week. Anyway, I really like what you were all saying about God being hurt when people reject his sacrifice and then they have to suffer eternally for that.

So, Felicity was this the passage you were thinking about?

Revelation 6:9-11

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


message 25: by [deleted user] (new)

Karis wrote: "There is some great discussion going on here girls. I'm sorry I missed some of it. I've been going at camp all week. Anyway, I really like what you were all saying about God being hurt when people ..."

Yes! That was it! Thank you :-)


message 26: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Tirzah wrote: "Yes, I'd have to say I definitely agree with you that God never desires that people go to hell. Growing up, I was always in Calvinistic churches that taught that God only loves his chosen "elect" (..."

Right. God is both infinitely just and infinitely merciful--which is something that's hard for us to understand (for me, anyway!) because we humans often think of justice and mercy as opposites.


message 27: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Karis wrote: "There is some great discussion going on here girls. I'm sorry I missed some of it. I've been going at camp all week. Anyway, I really like what you were all saying about God being hurt when people ..."

Thanks for sharing that passage--I don't think I'd ever read it before.

You know, it occurs to me that when we talk about whether or not it's okay to pray that God will bring judgment on the wicked, it may be important to distinguish between EARTHLY judgment (you know, punishment-in-this-life) and ETERNAL judgment (Hell). Because while I don't think it's right to pray that anybody ends up in Hell--I think we should be praying for their repentance instead--a prayer that God will punish them while they're yet alive is an altogether different matter. (I can't say if it's right or wrong, because I haven't thought about it enough; but I do think it's different.) And I think that may be more what the "cursing" psalms and that Revelation passage were talking about.


message 28: by [deleted user] (new)

Jessica wrote: "Karis wrote: "There is some great discussion going on here girls. I'm sorry I missed some of it. I've been going at camp all week. Anyway, I really like what you were all saying about God being hur..."

I've never thought about that before... Funny.
But now when I think about it, I agree! :-)


message 29: by Celestial (new)

Celestial This is such a great discussion. I agree with everything I've read so far. I do however want to bring into attention that when David wrote those Psalms praying that God would curse his enemies those enemies he was talking about were actively pursuing him in order to kill him. I think that in the moment he was also just pleading to God for salvation from his pursuers.


message 30: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Celestial wrote: "This is such a great discussion. I agree with everything I've read so far. I do however want to bring into attention that when David wrote those Psalms praying that God would curse his enemies thos..."

That's a good point--it's always super important to keep the context in mind while reading Scripture . . .


message 31: by Tirzah (new)

Tirzah Eleora | 9 comments Jessica wrote: "Karis wrote: "There is some great discussion going on here girls. I'm sorry I missed some of it. I've been going at camp all week. Anyway, I really like what you were all saying about God being hur..."

Good point, Jessica. I think I do sometimes confuse earthly and eternal punishment without really thinking about it. I don't think it would be wrong to pray that God would thwart the wicked in their wrong doing and punish them as long as you aren't having a vengeful or bitter attitude. Jonah comes to mind here....*runs off to go re-read the Book of Jonah*


message 32: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Tirzah wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Karis wrote: "There is some great discussion going on here girls. I'm sorry I missed some of it. I've been going at camp all week. Anyway, I really like what you were all saying abo..."

Definitely. There's no contradiction between praying that somebody--say, Hitler--repents of his sins, while also praying that he loses the war and gets punished for his war crimes. Because even if he's sorry, he still has to pay, in justice, for what he did.

(Note: I'm talking about Hitler in the present tense here because it makes it easier to present the "what if" scenario; of course I know Hitler is really dead :-) )


message 33: by Rhedyn (new)

Rhedyn  (fernffoulkes) I've read all these posts, and after some Bible study, I believe that hell isn't forever. (stop throwing those rotten tomatoes!)
Here's why:
The Bible does mention everlasting fire. Matthew 3:12; 25:41, 46. Isaiah 34:9-10. Mark 9:43-48. Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10. Jude 7. If you read Jude 7, however, you'll notice that it says Sodom and Gomorrah Burned with eternal fire. They are obviously not still burning. Exodus 21:6 mentions a man who will be his master's servant forever. Obviously, both the man and his master are going to die, so what happens then? He is his master's servant in heaven? 1 Samuel 1:22 says that Samuel was to remain before the Lord in the tabernacle forever. Samuel also died. Malachi 4:1 says the wicked will be burned, but they will be consumed. The end. Matthew 2:28 says the body and soul will be destroyed in hell. Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death, not everlasting torment. 2 Peter 3;12 says the heavens shall be on fire and the elements melt with fervent heat. 2 Thessalonians says the wicked will be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the Glory of His Power" Hebrews 12:25 says "For our God is a consuming fire." God is forever. This leads me to believe that with the second coming of Jesus, those who have accepted Christ's redemption will have it cover them, while the wicked will stand in the presence of God in their sin. God's Holiness is a consuming fire, therefore it will consume the sinful earth and the wicked with it. If the earth with the wicked burned forever, sin would always be with it. Besides, the Bible says that God will bring his New Jerusalem back to a redeemed and re-created earth. This would mean they would only burn until consumed. Please tell me any thoughts you have on this, or where I botched my explanation.


message 34: by Camille (new)

Camille Esther | 14 comments Wow, we've got some deep discussion going on here!
This may not be entirely on topic, but I recently had a realization. It can be a little confusing sometimes the way the Bible talks about both God's amazing love for humans, and His wrath toward those who refuse to repent. Kind of hard to reconcile the two, sometimes, ya know?
Then I thought "how would I feel if I did the absolute best I could do for a person (like Jesus did for us) and they turned around and said that they didn't want it." I guess I'd be pretty mad if someone treated my best like it was nothing.
That made it more clear to me how the whole love/wrath thing works.


message 35: by Rhedyn (last edited Nov 26, 2016 10:18AM) (new)

Rhedyn  (fernffoulkes) I think maybe it's the fact that they're hurting his creation. If my baby sister and one of her friends did something wrong, and her friend refused to repent and save herself- that's endangering my baby sister, who I love more than life itself. Mightn't I be angry at the sin that is harming my beloved's chance at eternity?


message 36: by R. (new)

R. Camille wrote: "Wow, we've got some deep discussion going on here!
This may not be entirely on topic, but I recently had a realization. It can be a little confusing sometimes the way the Bible talks about both God..."

I don't think God's MAD at people, but His perfect holiness and justice insists that He not only punish sin but also hate it. He doesn't hate the person, He hates the sin, and since that person is the bearer of sin (and loves it) that person must be punished. . .unless he's cured.


message 37: by R. (new)

R. Fern Ffoulkes wrote: "I've read all these posts, and after some Bible study, I believe that hell isn't forever. (stop throwing those rotten tomatoes!)
Here's why:
The Bible does mention everlasting fire. Matthew 3:12; ..."


Jude 7 talks about Sodom and Gomorra suffering eternal fire because of sinning. Did the city commit the sin or did the people? Obviously, the people. They suffer eternally, but the city obviously doesn't because the buildings didn't commit the sin.
Here in Ex. 21:6 the man is a servant forever. . .to the end of his life, I would suggest.
In 1 Sam. 1:22 then forever could also mean to the end of Samuel's life, but also Samuel IS dwelling in the tabernacle of the Lord forever. Tabernacle is just a word for dwelling. Samuel is in heaven. . .where God dwells FOREVER.
In Malachi 4:1 the wicked are compared to trees ("root. . .branch") which are being burned. . .consumed. A figure of speech showing how the wicked are always punished, and I think here it might mostly refer to the here on earth part and not so much hell.
I couldn't find a Mat. 2:28. Typo?
Romans 6:23. . .In the Garden Adam and Eve would have lived forever except they sinned, which not only killed them spiritually but also physically.
"For by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin. . ."Romans 5:12. You notice that 5 is before 6. Paul was working up to 6:23 in his letter.
In 2 Peter 3:12 it says the heavens. . .elements. . .earth (notice all the physical-ness of it) will be destroyed which would naturally include the human race, but what about the soul. . .the non-physical part of humans. That's not going to be annilated by a nuclear melt-down.
In Hebrews the reference is to encourage Christians to revere God because He's very real and very powerful. "Don't turn you back on God because He's omnipotent". It refers back to Deut. 4:28. In a Jew's mind (Hebrews was especially writen to Hebrews) this would bring up many conotations: Aaron's sons offering "strange fire" (bad sacrafice) and being burned, Elijah's show-down with the prophets of Baal, etc.
Furthermore, if there isn't an eternal hell then how can God who is absolutely just punish an infinite offense?
Hell is real. We need to realize that's not a picnic. We NEED to tell other about Jesus who is the only way out.
I hope this helped and was coherent.
Now let's go love and live for Him


message 38: by Rhedyn (last edited Nov 29, 2016 02:04PM) (new)

Rhedyn  (fernffoulkes) I certainly believe Hell is real. I just believe it will be the earth, and the fire the fire of God's love. God is Love. How could we be eternally happy watching those we love burn forever? Here's a link to a paper on it- someone who can write coherently! (view spoiler)
And my other major point which I managed to leave out- when you die, you know nothing. You do not go to Heaven or to Hell. You wait in the earth for Jesus to return. I don't think humans have a "soul" in the sense you put it. And I'm just going to cheat and give y'all another link to an argument. I have to run. (view spoiler)

Either way, I have no intention of going there! Even if you are simply consumed, after burning long enough for your sins, ummmm.... I'd rather not. I love how you ended yours. If I use the time I'm using to write this to tell someone else that Jesus is our only escape, I may save someone from it. My motto in life is to "Go to Heaven someday and take as many people as I can with me!"


message 39: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Fern Ffoulkes wrote: "I certainly believe Hell is real. I just believe it will be the earth, and the fire the fire of God's love. God is Love. How could we be eternally happy watching those we love burn forever? Here's ..."

Have any of you guys read "The Great Divorce," by C.S. Lewis? It has some really fascinating insights on the topic of Heaven/Hell, salvation/damnation, etc.

Dante's "Divine Comedy" is also really, really good.


message 40: by Karis (new)

Karis Fern Ffoulkes wrote: "I certainly believe Hell is real. I just believe it will be the earth, and the fire the fire of God's love. God is Love. How could we be eternally happy watching those we love burn forever? Here's ..."

You also have to be careful about taking verses out of content and misunderstanding how a term is used.

Don't just believe anything you read. Study for yourself, pray for guidance, and compare the controversial text with what God says about the issue in other places.

I think our main goal in life should be to glorify God with our lives and to become more like Him which should in turn cause us to better impact others with the gospel.

Just some thoughts, gals. I'm not trying to step on anybody's toes or tell off anybody.


message 41: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Karis wrote: "Fern Ffoulkes wrote: "I certainly believe Hell is real. I just believe it will be the earth, and the fire the fire of God's love. God is Love. How could we be eternally happy watching those we love..."

I agree. Context is always key to understanding the Bible.


message 42: by Rhedyn (new)

Rhedyn  (fernffoulkes) I second that.


message 43: by Rhedyn (new)

Rhedyn  (fernffoulkes) The Great Divorce is really interesting. Obviously, it's a fantasy book, but every book explores something.


message 44: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Fern Ffoulkes wrote: "The Great Divorce is really interesting. Obviously, it's a fantasy book, but every book explores something."

Yes--it's not Scripture or any other form of divine revelation, of course, but it gives us Lewis' attempts to come to a deeper understanding of eternity and salvation. I especially liked his thoughts on Hell and why God has to condemn some souls to eternal separation from Him--it's because that's the path they have chosen for themselves, and He can't interfere with our choices.


message 45: by R. (new)

R. Fern Ffoulkes wrote: "I certainly believe Hell is real. I just believe it will be the earth, and the fire the fire of God's love. God is Love. How could we be eternally happy watching those we love burn forever? Here's ..."
The question you proposed is a very interesting one and a very good one. May I point out that God is not only love but He’s also justice. These do not contradict as we sometimes think (myself included). Sometimes love has to be “harsh” because love is based on truth. So how could we be happy in heaven when relatives and friends are hell? I really don’t have all the answers, obviously, but the Bible says that God will wipe all tears away, however that may be. Heaven is not about happiness, though definitely that’s part of it, but rather about having a perfect relationship with Him (which is what we were created for). This results in happiness, certainly, but happiness is not the point. God is, and since He promises the tears will be wiped away, they will be.
Please do not take my word or anybody else’ without reading the verses and their surrounding text for yourself along with much prayer(Acts 17:10-11, 2 Tim. 3:16-17).
Why do you think we just stay in the earth? Can you give me a verse? From the passage in Luke 16:23-31 then I believe that the unsaved person goes to a place to await judgement. They are very much conscious there. In 2 Peter 2:9 the Bible says that the unrighteous are kept under punishment “for the day of judgement”. In multiple instances (in fact in several of a passages I’m going to show) then the Bible talks about Hades (same as in Luke 16) rendering up its inhabitants for judgement. Here are some verses that talk of “unquenchable fire”: Mark 9:47-48 (which comes from Isaiah 66:24), Mat. 3:12, Mat. 25:41.
In Rev. 20:9, Satan and people he deceived at the end of the millennium surrounded the “saints and the beloved city”, but fire came down and “devoured” them. In the next verse, Satan is still alive! He’s thrown (displaced. . .meaning there are two places existing at that point in time: earth and hell) where the Beast and the false prophet (who were thrown in 1 000 years before) “are also”. These two humans were still there when Satan was cast in!
Keep reading. We now have the judgement of unsaved people (people whose names were not written in the book of life) who are yielded up from the sea, death, and Hades. They are thrown in (v. 15) along with death and Hades into the lake of fire. I was a bit unsure what death and Hades being thrown in meant. It seemed a bit strange because death is not an object, it’s a concept. But it seems to be a personification: death is no more. You can’t die. What do you think (please pray before you answer)?
In Rev. 14:11 people who worship the Beast are said to be tormented forever and ever.
Furthermore, if people are only annihilated then that minimizes the amazing-ness of Jesus’ sacrifice, the seriousness of sin , and the special-ness of humans. Humans are made in image of God. They can’t be killed like a dog or tree; I believe they live or die forever.
What do you believe about the soul?
I’m going to rant here so cover your eyes if you wish. Please don’t hope that something is right; God gave us the Bible so that we WON’T guess, which also means it doesn’t really matter if we “want to go there” or not. What matters is what God said!
If you’re still reading this then please finish because this is going to initially sound like heresy. Our goal in life is not to tell others about Jesus. Or goal is not to be good. Our goal is not to pray. Our goal is not to read the Bible. Our goal is to love God! This is the first commandment (Deut. 7:5, Mat. 22:37-38, Mark 12:29-30). That’s something we believers (often) lose sight of, but this is the reason we were created, the reason we were saved, and the reason heaven will be inexpressibly wonderful. When we love God, we will love praying, reading the Bible, leading holy lives, and telling others about Jesus. We can do nothing if we do not love and abide in Him (John 15:4).
(end of mega-length “comment”)
By the way, I really like the name Fern.


message 46: by Camille (new)

Camille Esther | 14 comments R. I can tell you are into debate! (I used to debate theological topics on an online forum. Lots of fun.)

I'm glad to see y'all are studying the Bible! I love meeting others who are serious about their faith.


message 47: by Camille (new)

Camille Esther | 14 comments R. wrote: "Camille wrote: "Wow, we've got some deep discussion going on here!
This may not be entirely on topic, but I recently had a realization. It can be a little confusing sometimes the way the Bible talk..."


"Mad" may not be the best word, per se, but I do think the idea holds true. " it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God," as the scripture says.


message 48: by Rhedyn (last edited Dec 17, 2016 05:02AM) (new)

Rhedyn  (fernffoulkes) Sorry! I've been really busy, and even now don't have time to write a full answer- I just wrote a whole post and then accidentally deleted it!!!!
OK, God is a God of Justice. Let us imagine that Cain goes to Hell, and Abel goes to heaven. Is it just that Abel spends 6,000 more years with his redeemer than someone who died tonight, or that Cain spends 6,000 more years in torment? What about Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, and the Widow of Nain's son? Did they go directly to heaven or hell? Can you imagine being Lazarus, and finally getting to heaven- (which you must admit is superior to earth) when suddenly he gets whisked back from paradise? Ouch. Also, in John 14, Christ "goes to prepare a place" for his disciples. Had everyone else been without accommodations for the last 4,000 years?
As to the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, doesn't it seem to be a parable?
Sorry for how short this is. I'll try to carve out some time soon. And I'm praying a lot :)


message 49: by Katie (new)

Katie Hanna | 16 comments Fern wrote: "Sorry! I've been really busy, and even now don't have time to write a full answer- I just wrote a whole post and then accidentally deleted it!!!!
OK, God is a God of Justice. Let us imagine that C..."


To answer some of your questions:

The Catholic Church (that's my church) teaches that righteous people (Abel, Lazarus, etc.) who died before Christ's Redemption went to Limbo, which is kind of a "waiting-place" in or near Hell, to wait until Christ opened up Heaven for them. So no, people hadn't been without accomodations before that--but they hadn't been in Heaven, either. Christ's death on the Cross changed everything.

Also, something that's really important to remember: After you die, there's no such thing as time anymore. So you can't really talk about spending so-and-so-many thousand years in Heaven or Hell; it doesn't work like that. Eternity is a paradox and something we can't truly understand while we're alive.

You don't have to agree with me, but this is what I believe--being Catholic, as I am :-)


message 50: by ❄Elsa Frost❄ (new)

❄Elsa Frost❄ (elsafrost) I wonder if anyone who is of another religion truly does go to hell if they do seem to have good intentions regardless...? I especially wonder if people who don't even know God actually go to hell, since they were simply ignorant of God--they are not like the people who decided, "You know what? I know a lot about Him, but I'm not going to follow Him."


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