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message 1: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
Unsure whether this belongs here in OSS - after all, if we were to comment all world events and news, the amount of new threads would be overwhelming. Fellow mods, opinions? Not that I deny the paramount importance of Brexit to both Great Britain and the rest of the European Union. :)


message 2: by Tim (new)

Tim I really don't like these kind of shows, so I've only watched the first minute. As such I apologise for anything I might have missed in it. Anyway, here's my two cents on it.

I think there are good left-wing arguments for both leave and stay. On the one hand, I think institutions like the EU are the bane of grassroots democracy and therefore I would ultimately prefer them gone. Even on the short term, it would be a good thing to have less politicians having (official) power in the policies that affect a population that is too large for them to govern anyway. So, less layers of bureaucracy and less people with power (again, officially speaking) are both good things.

On the other hand, in the case of the UK in particular, I think it is far more beneficial to stay. If the UK were to leave, it would mean leaving its people on its own on an island with the Tories and no one really to stop them from completely drowning the population in a toilet bowl. And it's not just the Thatcherites who are guilty here, the Blairites are guilty of similar policies. On top of that, and forgive my saying so, the UK seems to have the largest threat of fascist parties gaining power in Western Europe. I'm sorry, but it had to be said. Britain First, the BNP (British National Party), UKIP (United Kingdom Independence Party) and I'm tempted to count the Tories as well for their very obvious neo-aristocracy, but I won't just yet. That amounts to no less than 3 fascist parties, I would not want to be stuck on an island with 3 fascist parties, in addition to the more mediocre parties like Labour and the LibDems. And say what you will about Britain First having no official power, recent events show us they are not harmless.

I would say that right now, the UK seceding from the EU would, at best, not change anything. I don't really have anything else to say on the matter though, except that it must be pointed out that the recent #VOTIN campaign video was just awful and brainwashing, especially given that it's aimed at younger people.


message 3: by Bunny (new)

Bunny I agree with Ana and Kodak I don't see how this is this more than peripherally relevant to feminism.


message 4: by Bunny (new)

Bunny If you want to discuss politics more generally maybe you could make a different group, or maybe the mods would be willing to have a general chat section?


message 5: by Bunny (new)

Bunny Looks like Adam has quit the group.


message 6: by Tim (new)

Tim So it does. Too bad. As for the relevancy of thread, while it is indeed not directly linked to feminism, I think it's an important enough matter nonetheless. Ms. Emma Watson herself posted about it on Facebook just yesterday if I'm not wrong, so I'm sure she wouldn't disapprove.


message 7: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
Ehhhh, I fail to understand why people disagreeing with you on the relevance of a certain topic would be grounds from withdrawing from a group altogether. A bit over the board, but oh well, everyone's free to do as they please.


message 8: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
*for. I swear this tablet is crazy.


message 9: by Tim (new)

Tim Oh no, you misunderstand, Ana. I didn't mean it as having anything to do with Adam leaving. I just meant it as a possible answer to the question as to whether or not this belongs in OSS. ;)


message 10: by Bunny (new)

Bunny I think Adam was just looking for a more explicitly political group and when he realized this wasn't it he moved on. Which is fine I mean we can't be all things to all people and if people are looking for something different hopefully they'll find it.


message 11: by Rose (new)

Rose (reradford) | 58 comments How could a country that seems so mature have made such a devastating decision for itself and the world? And what does this portend for America's impending election?

Possibly the most helpful article I've found discussing what this means: http://www.economist.com/node/21701265

RE: above discussion, we should definitely be able to talk about politics, guys...


message 12: by Bunny (new)

Bunny Nobody said we couldn't talk about politics we just said we didn't see what the connection was to feminism. It would've been perfectly possible to explain what he thought the connection was.


message 13: by Rose (new)

Rose (reradford) | 58 comments From what I understand, the best steps forward at this point would be for the new Prime Minister to facilitate trade agreements that have the same effect as being part of the EU, and those agreements will include immigration clauses with the same effect, as well.

What I'm most concerned about is the blow that this will deal on the EU as a whole. If France leaves too, I feel like it might really spiral. I literally have no idea how to understand how this will affect the world economy.


message 14: by Bunny (new)

Bunny So. For example. The EU has policies on gender based violence that member states have to comply with. As the UK is leaving the EU presumably those policies will no longer apply and the UK will have to enact its own standards. There. Feminism relevant.


message 15: by Rose (new)

Rose (reradford) | 58 comments I'm kind of assuming (maybe stupidly) that like California, Britain has more stringent social and environmental laws than the EU as a whole does. Is anyone more educated than me about this?


message 16: by S.L.J. (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments It's all up in the air at the moment. But eventually the dust will settle, some things will change, some won't. It's way too early to know if Brexit is a good thing or a bad thing or just a thing.


message 17: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
Whoa. Did someone really think the leave camp would win? I for one did not. What a sad, confusing day.

What I don't understand is that a friend of mine said that he was still sceptical that Great Britain would in fact leave the EU, even after the victory of Brexit. Is...is that even possible? He seemed really convinced but all of the news I've read today most definitely suggest otherwise. I would be so, so glad if there was a way to turn this nonsense down, but I can't see how.


message 18: by Rose (new)

Rose (reradford) | 58 comments I wasn't even paying attention until I found out it was a Leave vote, myself.

The procedure of leaving the EU seems to involve the heads of state - I think the source of the confusion is that technically, the Prime Minister can choose not to formally declare withdrawal. Cameron put it to a referendum by popular vote, and while he and his successor aren't actually legally bound, I think there is no choice but to withdraw at this point. Just like the Republican party in America can technically not nominate Trump - it would just be incredibly embarrassing and blow their chances of winning the general election if they don't, so they will.

Anyone who knows more about this than I do, please chime in.


message 19: by S.L.J. (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments Rose wrote: "I wasn't even paying attention until I found out it was a Leave vote, myself.

The procedure of leaving the EU seems to involve the heads of state - I think the source of the confusion is that tec..."


Cameron couldn't refuse the leave vote. He was the leader of the remain vote so by voting leave the country has essentially voted against their leader and because he is an advocate of democracy, he now has to step down. Now Scotland and Northern Ireland are threatening to leave Great Britain so that they can rejoin the EU.


message 20: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
Perhaps that was our mistake? I said 'our' because while I am deeply worried and saddened about the leave vote, I am more than willing to admit the EU's own fault in...hell, not only Brexit, in this whole terrible crisis. Perhaps that was our fault, not paying enough attention, thinking this was a tantrum from the bad guys, etc.

I have seen that there is a petition going on trying to get the Parliament to do an encore because the margin was so narrow. But then I dared to comment on a local newspaper article on Facebook and I was told this 'blah...the Muslims and immigrants, blah', oh and also that the UKIP was not against all immigrants, and that I had been badly misled by someone bearing ill intentions at heart. Suuuuure.

But I apologise if we should indeed, as I defended myself in the beginning, limit to the potential feminist slant of Brexit. Today is hard to stay silent, but I would hate to make our British members (and mods!!) feel uneasy or uncomfortable with this thread. I know many are mourning this decision and as for those who aren't, well, there's something true - there was a referendum and the people spoke. So perhaps we should leave it cool for now.


message 21: by Rose (new)

Rose (reradford) | 58 comments In my opinion, we shouldn't hold back from talking about world economics and politics. This is something that's going to affect everyone, men and women alike. If this discussion is making anyone uncomfortable, they are welcome to not read it.

My impression of the "Leave" campaign was that it portrayed an independent Britain as economically more powerful (just factually incorrect), and has racial and class undertones (scary on a few levels). And that there was some whining about representation, which is always going to be contentious in a coalition of political entities.

Ana, was there a rallying cry, other than fear of immigration? If the EU failed Britain... what was that failure? Because I haven't heard anything specific.


message 22: by S.L.J. (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments Rose wrote: "In my opinion, we shouldn't hold back from talking about world economics and politics. This is something that's going to affect everyone, men and women alike. If this discussion is making anyone un..."

The Brits are angry because of the amount of money they give to the EU, the lack of immigration regulation and the fact that they were not fully in control of the country anymore. A lot of people voted leave because of the idea that they were losing their sovereignty.


message 23: by Tim (new)

Tim Rose, I must admit that, while your initial comment about the trade agreements is indeed a possibility, the part where you include immigration as one of those agreements just feels very naive. The whole backbone of the leave camp primarily consisted of nationalistic ideas, immigration laws clearly being an imminent topic of that field. If the new PM were to make the exact same immigration laws as there were before, how do you think the far right (leave) camp will react?

As for Cameron, call it a conspiracy theory if you will, but I always thought he alleged support for staying in, precisely because he actually wanted the UK to leave, but because he also knew that nobody trusts him and would therefore, as soon as they'd see him advocate staying, decide that leaving might just be the better choice after all. As I said earlier, the people who benefit the most from the UK leaving the EU are supporters of right-wing politics, and the UK is significantly right-wing compared to the rest of western Europe. Now that he's buggered off, obviously I'm questioning whether or not I was right, but then again, just because Cameron isn't PM anymore doesn't mean the Tory party will just vanish. If worst comes to worst, the new PM will be a UKIP member and boy are you in for something very awful at that point (see message 27 of the "Sexist Popular Politicians" thread in the "Feminism" folder for some prototypical UKIP misogyny).


message 24: by Rose (last edited Jun 24, 2016 04:08PM) (new)

Rose (reradford) | 58 comments "A lot depends on the kind of deal the UK agrees with the EU after exit. If it remains within the single market, it would almost certainly retain free movement rights, allowing UK citizens to work in the EU and vice versa."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-3...

"Accordingly, the Leave side promised supporters both a thriving economy and control over immigration. But Britons cannot have that outcome just by voting for it. If they want access to the EU’s single market and to enjoy the wealth it brings, they will have to accept free movement of people. If Britain rejects free movement, it will have to pay the price of being excluded from the single market. The country must pick between curbing migration and maximising wealth."
http://www.economist.com/node/21701265

However, as you said, Tim, clearly the Conservative PM is not going to support this - and because it's a package deal, the possibilities here seem bleak.

California is the 6th biggest economy in the world, as of 7 days ago. A quick statistic calculated using these numbers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...
Britain accounts for 17% of the EU economy, and California accounts for 13% of the US economy.

My point is that paying into the EU economy not a real argument against membership. What about Germany? In fact... what about Greece? Greece was entirely hosed by the Euro. Leaving the Eurozone would have done nothing but help Greece's economy a few years back. Greece heroically stuck with it. And now, with the world tottering toward stability… I can't think of anything more villianous.

It sounds like the US is NOT going to back off quantitative easing, after all, because the sterling’s dive has strengthened the USD, meaning that our exports are going to get hit again. Stock markets in Japan have tanked, the US stock market AND crude oil prices are both down 5%. Nobody is predicting global disaster except me but maybe that's because they're stunned into silence.


message 25: by Sandi (new)

Sandi | 7 comments Rose wrote: "I'm kind of assuming (maybe stupidly) that like California, Britain has more stringent social and environmental laws than the EU as a whole does. Is anyone more educated than me about this?"

I don't know about social laws, but as far as environmental laws go, GB used to be known as "the dirty man in Europe" (never noticed the male language here before). EU-dictated environmental laws have greatly changed that for the better! Of course that was around fourty years ago and might not be relevant to current developments.


message 26: by S.L.J. (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments It's moments like this that have actually shaped the democracy for Britain over the last few hundred years. Like the peasants revolt, it's moments when the people stood up and said 'No' that have changed everything.

It's easy to forget that black people were able to walk into a pub and have a pint in London at the same time that they were still being forced to sit at the back of the bus and use their own designated water fountains in America. And Hillary Clinton may become the first female president but Britain has had women leading the country for longer than any other in the world.

Britain has a long history of doing things that have never been done before.


message 27: by Rose (new)

Rose (reradford) | 58 comments Things that cost the world economy 2 trillion dollars in one day. Bravo, Britain. You've once again proven yourself... exceptional.


message 28: by Tim (new)

Tim True indeed, S.L.J., although I feel like we're neglecting France when it comes to people taking action. I haven't heard anything at all from the protests on any large media outlet in recent weeks, save for a few left-wing media pages on Facebook. I feel like Brexit is the best thing that could have happened for the mass media, since they now have a good excuse not to talk about France (if the protests there are even still going on at all), and in a sense, Brexit may indeed be the start of a similar left-wing revolt that would otherwise not have occured. At least I certainly hope so.

I'm living in Belgium so I can just about guarantee that ours will e the last government to so much as think about leaving the EU (since it kind of started in Belgium and has its important infrastructure there). Numerous train strikes have been going on recently though, including some instances of railway sabotage (not done by the workers as far as I know). And as anyone might expect, the central-right party that is currently in power is doing everything it can to make take this opportunity to make sure the "Socialist Union" (that is the name they took for themselves, I am not necessarily calling them socialists) are hated as much as possible, thereby making sure anyone who uses the word socialist or tries to defend the workers is hated as well. Quelle surprise, eh?


message 29: by S.L.J. (last edited Jun 25, 2016 02:04AM) (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments Rose wrote: "Things that cost the world economy 2 trillion dollars in one day. Bravo, Britain. You've once again proven yourself... exceptional."

So about the same that the Iraq war cost? The Vietnam war cost another trillion. What good came out of those?

It's not like Britain has stolen the money. The reason the markets are crashing is because people are panicking even though nothing has actually changed yet.

We're leaving the EU but we're not abandoning Europe. If, God forbid, another attack like the Paris massacre were to take place do you think Britain would shrug and say "It's not our problem anymore."? We would be there in a heartbeat giving any support that we could and continuing to work to prevent it ever happening again. If Europe needs Britains help, Britain will be there but we won't be ruled by a commission of non-elected people hundreds of miles away anymore.


message 30: by tumi ☀️ (new)

tumi ☀️ (butterflythinker) | 4 comments Leaving the EU is going to cause problems. The people who wanted to leave the EU are mostly Nationalists, and Nationalism was one of the four main causes of world war1 which were:
Militarism (building up a country's armed forces)
Alliances
Imperialism (building up a country's empire)
And nationalism.
Now we have left the EU, other countries are going to think they can do it too; I was told by my friend who is danish, that Denmark now wants a referendum concerning staying or leaving the EU. Already, other countries want to break away and be 'independent'. Soon, the EU will completely fall apart and then we will all be living in Europe as individuals. Then, there's going to be tension because no one trusts anyone anymore. Countries are going to make alliances. Then, other countries will be like: "oh, well i'd better start building up my armed forces" and then the size of a country's empire will become a competition (Imperialism) and then BANG - world war three. And, if you don't mind me saying: Trump - Make America Great again, Hitler - Make Germany Great again. This is LITERALLY HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF. This is exactly what happened before the first world war. The EU has a HISTORY which the people in power don't know, and that's why they're just making the same mistake again. The EU was made to stop another world war like the first two. It's only been 43 years, and we've already forgotten it! HISTORY MATTERS PEOPLE. Also, Europe is a continent in which we need to work together. We live in the world as a community, not as individuals. History is a cruel master; and it always comes and bites us in the backside when we forget it. We will pay for leaving the EU, because Europe IS and SHOULD BE a Union and that is something we should never forget.


message 31: by Christine (new)

Christine Periña | 67 comments You have a good point, Bookbutterfly_007


message 32: by Pamela (last edited Jun 25, 2016 06:42AM) (new)

Pamela (pwren) Related to reading!
According to trending Google searches no one researched the situation *before* the vote!
People, become informed about your environment, your communities!
http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechco...


message 33: by S.L.J. (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments Bookbutterfly_007➰ wrote: "Leaving the EU is going to cause problems. The people who wanted to leave the EU are mostly Nationalists, and Nationalism was one of the four main causes of world war1 which were:
Militarism (build..."


I agree with you about Trump but the rest is a bit melodramatic isn't it? Nobody is talking about war or military strength. In fact the word that is being repeated on all sides over and over is 'negotiate'.

Why is everyone panicking?


message 34: by Adam (new)

Adam Sowa | 226 comments I'll, maybe, comment later.

In the meantime: https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/b...


message 35: by S.L.J. (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments Adam wrote: "I'll, maybe, comment later.

In the meantime: https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/b..."


Huh...well, it's good to see everyone is being so optimistic.

P.S. Jon Snow for PM


message 36: by Samanta (new)

Samanta   (almacubana) | 50 comments S.L.J. wrote: "Adam wrote: "I'll, maybe, comment later.

In the meantime: https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/b..."
..."


LOL


message 37: by Bunny (last edited Jun 25, 2016 12:03PM) (new)

Bunny The Regrexit petition has now passed 2 million signatures. In one day.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petiti...


message 38: by James (new)

James Corprew So much for Democracy. lol


message 39: by Mark (new)

Mark | 12 comments Adam wrote: "I'll, maybe, comment later.

In the meantime: https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/b..."


Interesting and insightful articles. They fit in with what I have seen in the debates, and with talking with people I know during the run up to the referendum.
Interesting to note this split between the elite and the working/ordinary classes is most marked between those who usually vote for the Labour party.


message 40: by Mark (new)

Mark | 12 comments Bunny wrote: "The Regrexit petition has now passed 2 million signatures. In one day.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petiti..."


http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/...

This article suggests that most votes on the petition come from those living in the areas of London, Brighton, Manchester, Oxford and Cambridge. The areas where the remain vote was most concentrated. This suggests that those voting for a second referendum are those who originally voted to remain and are upset that they were on the losing side, and those in remain areas who did not vote in the first place, but who probably would have voted for remain if they had voted originally.

Hardly a Regrexit petition!


message 41: by S.L.J. (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments Bunny wrote: "The Regrexit petition has now passed 2 million signatures. In one day.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petiti..."


It's actually up to 2.4 million. Unfortunately 22 million voted to leave so...snap


message 42: by Pamela (new)

Pamela (pwren) It might take more than 24 hours to reach a significant number


message 43: by S.L.J. (last edited Jun 25, 2016 03:00PM) (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments pam wrote: "It might take more than 24 hours to reach a significant number"

It's already been 72 and the pound is starting rise again.

description


message 44: by Bunny (last edited Jun 25, 2016 03:03PM) (new)

Bunny Two and a half million signatures on the Regrexit petition.


message 45: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
The question is, should a second round be allowed?

It's...it's a tricky question to answer. I, as an individual, would be happy to see it happen I think. I would be happy to see a way for the UK to stay. However I do understand the voices that would question such a decision. This is democracy...even when it looks like a terribly wrong decision was made. Also, I do understand that the European Union wants to be stern and set an example from the UK case. We really cannot afford to let similar movements arise in France, the Netherlands and so on.

Ahhh. I've just been so shocked since yesterday.


message 46: by S.L.J. (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments What's done is done. Let's move on. Just because we're not part of the same clique anymore doesn't mean we can't work together.


message 47: by Samanta (new)

Samanta   (almacubana) | 50 comments Has anyone seen this? So this is that democracy you're all talking about. :(

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblan...


message 48: by Christine (new)

Christine Periña | 67 comments Samanta, I'd love to know what is that all about but I can't open the link! I guess something went wrong ..?!


message 49: by Samanta (new)

Samanta   (almacubana) | 50 comments Christine wrote: "Samanta, I'd love to know what is that all about but I can't open the link! I guess something went wrong ..?!"

Different people have published racist outbursts they witnessed after the Brexit. It's really horrible. I've loved UK since I can remember and always defended it if someone was saying bad things about it (I'm from Croatia), but this is disappointing.


message 50: by S.L.J. (new)

S.L.J. (sammyslj) | 24 comments Samanta wrote: "Christine wrote: "Samanta, I'd love to know what is that all about but I can't open the link! I guess something went wrong ..?!"

Different people have published racist outbursts they witnessed aft..."


I've been to Croatia, it's so beautiful. And Dubrovnik is the set for King's Landing in GOT. Double Woop!


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