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Summer Knight (The Dresden Files, #4)
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Summer Knight reread 2016

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message 1: by Monica, White Council (new) - rated it 5 stars

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
So... Summer Knight. I'm enjoying this long look at the arc of the series. It's my third time through, but somehow I feel I have a better grip on the overall story.

This is the first time Harry meets Mab. Made me nervous for him, knowing what this will lead to, and a bit sad and wistful. He was so innocent, even at this point. He didn't even know there were 3 queens! This isn't his first step into the storm of the Sidhe, but he will never be free of them after this.

If I remember correctly, Mab actually took Lea's debt because she was infected - am I remembering that correctly? Or am I making that up? And did Mab have to? She's had eyes on Harry since the beginning, it seems. She's had plans for him. Taking Lea's debt might have been a way to get him in her debt. Bound to her. Thoughts?

Also, one thing jumped out at me. Maybe I've got some things mixed up, but Harry's amulet was a gift from his mother, wasn't it? So where did Elaine's matching amulet come from?

Gytha | 2 comments Hmmm I don't remember Elaine's amulet now I'll have to reread again as well! ;-)

message 3: by Dan (new) - rated it 5 stars

Dan | 6 comments There's a possibility that the amulet came from Ebenezer McCoy. Big spoilers on their relationship. But I don't think that enough has been revealed about this.

message 4: by James (new)

James | 81 comments Yup. Elaine is Harrys sister maybe. But thought of that. Only way it works is if his mother is still alive. Ooooh. Also someone fixed little Chicago for Harry. Only way in was either past his wards or via the ways. So that keaves several options. Mc Coy, Rashid, Mab, or again his mom.

Jeanie | 110 comments Weren't Harry and Elaine teen lovers? Let's hope they weren't brother and sister. Ick.

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments I always thought that Little Chicago was fixed by Lash when she was still in Harry's head. And I seriously doubt that Elaine is a blood relative of Harry, much less his sister - just can't see Butcher making that happen. More likely the pentagonal is a fairly common symbol and focus in the magical world and Elaine was probably given hers by Justin. It would make sense that if Justin were teaching Harry and Elaine about foci and if Harry already had one that Justin would give Elaine one so that they would have the same tools. Thoughts?

message 7: by James (new)

James | 81 comments Lash could have done the repair but more likely she would have told him how to repair the model. She definitely was not in favor of using the model, so maybe thaumaturgy is not one of her skills. I would guess as a demon, she pretty much just wills things to be done. I am not sure if Butcher is going to revisit this but I feel like is a living being who make the correction.

Side note, in the Bible, miracles like that are done in the name of God, not in your own power. A demon would have very limited power other than the powers specifically granted by God. EG ruling Earth. Butcher has a different power structure for the Dresdonverse.

message 8: by James (new)

James | 81 comments So then the question is, "Who is Elaine's mother"? It is established that the power follows the maternal line and since Elaine is nearly as strong as Harry, she has to come from a powerful family. It is unlikely that her mother is Harry's mother because well yuch. And while Butcher likes to let these possibilities hang out there, he rarely goes down the yuch line (EG as much as we all like Harry and Molly, together, it wont happen at least till they are much older). I dont remember any big clues BUT they can talk mind to mind, so is that blood magic? Seems this is similar to locating Thomas or Molly via blood. I don't think she is his sister, but I would guess that she is very closely related.

Does McCoy have any other children besides Harry's mother? Perhaps a fling?

Perhaps she is the actual daughter of Justin DuMorne (maybe an exception to the mother rule)?

And honestly Harry loves Elaine. As long as she is alive there is going to be a connection.

message 9: by Monica, White Council (new) - rated it 5 stars

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
Some good points, James. Elaine's line must be pretty powerful, since she's fairly powerful herself. Though some of both Harry's and Elaine's power might come from the strict and persistent training by Justin.

Anyone with thoughts on Mab's taking Lea's debt?

message 10: by James (last edited Jun 23, 2016 07:44PM) (new)

James | 81 comments Well Mab locked up Lea and Harry has been Winter Court all his life just didn't know it so Mab had to step in and finish his training directly. He has to use his powers for the final battle at the outer gates. Everything is building him up to be ready for that. Everyone but Harry is in on that secret.

Oh and Molly is going to be with Ramirez. Their both good Catholic wizards. That's been building for a long time.

message 11: by Monica, White Council (new) - rated it 5 stars

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
That's a great way of putting it: Harry has always been with Winter, but just didn't know it. Through the pact his mom made with Lea, I guess that's true.

But... as of Summer Knight, Lea's not yet locked up. Or at least we don't know this. Does it turn out that she was locked up this early? I don't remember.

I guess I'm also wondering if Mab took Lea's debt b/c she was infected, or was she just waiting for an excuse to take it to control Harry. Do we know anything about this?

message 12: by James (new)

James | 81 comments I would say yes to the first (and because there was an agreement. If she did not honor that debt, Harry's obligation to Winter would have been voided) and the second is just in her nature. IMHO then yes to both.

Cherie | 96 comments I happen to be rereading Summer Knight at the moment myself - I tend to avoid re-reading the first three [though I have more than once] because I feel like it all really starts with 4.

I don't think it's NECESSARY in any way that the power travels through the mother - and I have never thought about Elaine's parents I'm so glad someone brought this up! I don't see Ebenezer being aware of Elaine so I'm not sure about that connection - I somehow doubt that by that age Ebenezer is not very wary of, um, leaving a baby around.

I like the idea of ramirez and Molly - seems more of an even pairing [though she's obviously stronger now] than the M-H potential

I have a quick question - Harry mentions in passing [paraphrase] healed circular scars inside his wrists - what on earth is that? All I can think of is the barbed wire stuff from psychic assaults in the past [book 3?] but I didn't think it left physical scars - only those showing with the sight

message 14: by James (last edited Jun 24, 2016 08:18AM) (new)

James | 81 comments Well the whole premise in White Night is that by killing the women, it will prevent the birth of wizards. I dont think that the premise says that 100% of the power is inherited from the mother but Harry and Molly are both examples of children of parents where only the mother has magic potential.

But just to give this a plausible scientific explanation. The mitochondrial DNA is only inherited from the mother. This is also the DNA that converts cell energy and then potentially other types of energy handled by wizards. SO if the wizard potential is inherited via mitochondrial DNA, then it could only come from the mother (and never the father). Also since mitochondrial DNA is not combined, your power potential would be almost 100% driven by your matrilineal line. Week mothers make week wizards and strong mothers, strong wizards. Oh and that means all of Michael and Charity's many children are going to have the potential to be pretty strong wizards. BOOM mind blown....

Another thought. Wizard Luccio has many descendants and she is not in touch with them. Elaine could be one of her grandchildren or great grandchildren. That would be a good tie back to Elaine's strength and fine control.

Not sure about the scars. I only have the older books in hard copy, so its hard to find the references.

Jeanie | 110 comments Were the circular scars related to a time when his shield bracelet did a meltdown due to a power overload?

message 16: by Monica, White Council (new) - rated it 5 stars

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
I actually got the impression the scars were older, say from when he was a teenager, or at least before the books started. Not sure what gave me that impression, and I don't know what they're from. But small circular scars can be made from cigarettes. Don't know what else.

Cherie | 96 comments Hmm - both are possible sources for the scars - it was just an odd thing to bring up I thought - randomness.

I like the idea of Elaine being a 'Luccio' - interesting. And more sensible.

I'm still not convinced that it's a maternal trait - I think the white knight scenario just made for easy targets - they were looking to get rid of low level magic wielders because it was easy - could have been men too [look at the guy Charity got sucked in by] - but I tend towards chaos over order in my assumptions!

Anyway - done and moving on to death masks now - I really do love Summer Knight - one of my favorites!

Carson Whitaker | 4 comments I always thought the scars were from the shield bracelet as well.

As I have gone through the books, I have often got the feeling that Dresden has more of a connection to queens or to the faeries. Given that his mom was apparently really involved, is there any chance that he has faerie blood in him? This connection may be why Mab wants him so bad. It may give him some special abilities/capabilities that other wizards don't have.

I don't remember reading anything about his Mom's Mom (Grandmother). They do imply at times that Dresden's Dad had a little more going on than what Dresden knows as well. Maybe this is where one of the connections come in.

It is a stretch but could his Dad have been half faerie and chosen to be mortal?

If any of this has truth to it maybe the necklaces are traced back to the faeries.


message 19: by James (last edited Jun 27, 2016 07:12PM) (new)

James | 81 comments Maybe. She is called Margaret la Fae it might not only be because she knows the ways. Could she be Mab? Doubtful but would be interesting.

FYI the wrist scars are from the thorn manicals in one of the early books. On page 322 of small favor he is listing his scars for Luccio.

Cherie | 96 comments OH! Thanks James - that was bugging me LOL

Carson Whitaker | 4 comments James:"Could she be Mab?"

Me: Blown Mind!!!! Lol

message 22: by Monica, White Council (new) - rated it 5 stars

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
A second mind blown!

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments If she does end up being Mab, seriously big props to you, because I never would have guessed that in 1000 guesses. Not sure how that would work with the visions Harry and Thomas were shown just after Harry found out Thomas was his brother. And I also get the feeling that Mab has been queen of the winter fairies for a fairly long time (especially if you go into the mythology of the fae queens), longer than Margaret has been around

message 24: by Madderakka (new) - added it

Madderakka | 43 comments Mab gets kind of flirty/sexual with Harry, so that would be very weird. Plus, I get the impression that she has been the Winter Queen for longer than Harry's lifespan.

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments *Warning* please don't read if you haven't read changes. Mad, you seriously just reminded me - the ceremony to become a Winter Knight - yeah that would be just WRONG if Mab were Harry's mother.

Jeanie | 110 comments Given the "initiation ceremony" Mab had with Harry--and viewed by all the Fae--I hope Mab is no relation to him. ick.

message 27: by Monica, White Council (new) - rated it 5 stars

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
Ok, more questions! This time, on Lea:

Lea's knife (given as a gift by Bianca, iirc) has as much power as the sword, according to Lea. I'm thinking this will end up being significant later. The knife shows up occasionally, so going on the principle that JB does nothing randomly... anyone have thoughts on its future purpose?

Also, Lea said her price for taking Harry to Mab would be paid by no one "he knows or knew." Harry guessed she meant his mother. Lea only said perhaps. If he's right, how would she pay that if she's dead? Could it mean she's not? Who else could she have meant?

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments Love the idea of the knife showing up again later - it definitely has potential. *Dont read further if you havent read changes. *As to Mab being Harry's mother, considering what occurred between them in the ceremony to make him her knight, that would be just WRONG. Also, her death seemed like a pretty important piece of Harry's backstory, so I can't really see her coming back to life - not saying it couldn't happen, just that I think it unlikely.

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments Sorry guys, thought my earlier post hadn't gone through. My bad. Didn't mean to harp on or repeat myself

message 30: by Madderakka (new) - added it

Madderakka | 43 comments Monica, it could mean that Harry's mother already paid the price before she died. Maybe that is how she came to have a white court vampire's child. OR it could mean that someone Harry met after this favor will wind up paying the price in some way.

message 31: by Monica, White Council (new) - rated it 5 stars

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
Hm... all good thoughts. You may be right, Madderakka. Alas, we have to wait!

I have questions on the Courts:
What are the powers of the Mothers? They were unable to act more than what they told and gave Harry. Mother Summer said she could not act against Aurora. Is she incapable of acting against her own court? Are the Mothers too powerful, that their mere actions can upset balances?

Lily said this was the first time this power has gone to a mortal. Did she mean the power of the Lady of Summer? Does that mean Molly is the second mortal? Lily is a changling and Molly is a wizard, so not total normal mortals. What were the others if not mortal? Other faeries?

Archimedes Grimm | 139 comments Other fairies would make the most sense to me. The only other option I can think of would be for them to be former gods - old beings taking up new positions lest they be forgotten and become unable to contact the world - but fairies makes more sense to me. As to why they can't act... they are the oldest and most limited of the fae queens. Their time has passed and I asume they have limits on what they can do to prevent them from interfering too much in the younger queens' rule (not sure who enforces these restrictions, but then I'm not sure what makes it more difficult for them to answer questions plainly.) I would say that one of the reasons for the restrictions on their actions is because the mothers are more powerful than the queens - or at least that's the impression I get. Thoughts?

message 33: by Monica, White Council (new) - rated it 5 stars

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
The last of my questions on Summer Knight:

Many people have referred to Harry's destiny, obscurely, of course. Martha said, "You know what he was meant to be." Does that have to do with the term often used for him, starborn?
The Gatekeeper or someone said he was meant to be a destroyer. What might he be meant to destroy?
When he first meets Maeve, she says, "not as untamable as he claimed." Who claimed that? And when she asked for his firstborn, did she know who it would be?

A couple of great lines from this book:
"Somewhere out there was a village I'd deprived of its idiot."
"The only people who never hurt are dead."
And of course: "I don't believe in fairies!"

message 34: by James (new)

James | 81 comments The Mother, Queen and the Winter Lady make up the three faces of the nornes and it is hinted that the strongest mask they have is as Hecate. So yes old gods with new roles.

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