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message 1: by julianna ➹ (new)

julianna ➹ (juliannnnna) I have noticed that many women who are feminists get very aggressive at some things, saying that they are feminists although what they are trying to say is not feminism.
Does that make sense? There was this article about corsets and how a company was marketing them as "it will make you slimmer and better" or something along those lines, and I've noticed comments like "Corsets are stupid" and "If you wear corsets then you're not respecting yourself".
However, doesn't feminism mean that women have equal rights as men? So, don't they have the rights to wear a corset?
Also, slut-shaming. I have also noticed that when a celebrity posted an almost nude picture of themselves, many people have been saying that they are feminists and that you shouldn't do that, but do they not have the right to post that picture? It is their own choice to post that.
Also, some people approach feminism as women are superior to men, and I know that that's certainly not true. Men are not superior to women, either. Feminism is the concept that women are treated EQUALLY to men, rather than BETTER than them.
Basically, I want to discuss the misinterpretations of feminism.


Hylian Princess  (hylianprincess) | 8 comments I think I understand where you are going with this, and I can agree in many ways.

For example, I do recognize the value of women saying, you do not have to wear skimpy clothes, or lots of make up or even shave to be pretty. I think more women need to know that their value is not dependent on their physical image or the judgements of others. However, I have seen on the other end where women who are beautiful or who like wearing lots of makeup or particular clothing are criticized for such choices. I for one, wear makeup every day, even if I don't leave my house all day. I don't do it to impress anyone, I do it for me. We as women will not cover any ground if we are attacking each other, that goes to both sides. The best way to form equality is to love each other! And it helps to love and respect men.


message 3: by Michael (new)

Michael Ståhl | 12 comments You can see it regarding many topics. The common theme is that people should be allowed to do whatever they wants as long as it is in lines with the ideas and morals of the writer.

That is in no way feminism, instead what it is is an attempt of authoritarianism, or even fascism. A system where a small self-selected elite knows better what's best, not just for the group, but also for the single individual.

Women berating other women for their choice of clothes are a good example of this self-selected elite that wish nothing more than to force their ideas unto others.


Hylian Princess  (hylianprincess) | 8 comments I do agree. I think it also just creates a distraction from the real issues that should be addressed.


message 5: by Jillian (new)

Jillian | 26 comments I think those ideas that force women into the other extreme where they are not allowed to wear makeup, shave or be housewives have very very commonly been mistaken for actual feminism by a mass of people for far too long. In my opinion that's definitely the main reason for both "feminism" being seen as such an unpopular and unattractive word and the existence of such ridiculously painful Facebook groups as "women against feminism". (Excuse me, loves, but since you're against possessing equal rights as men, I do hope you realise you are standing up against your right to even found such groups and voice your bloated, destructive opinion.)

I certainly agree with what has been said already, though. We certainly can't succeed and expect to be heard and respect if we can't even respect each other and every woman's personal choices (so long as they don't restrict the rights of others).

Slut shaming is a such a huge issue. There is a case being very present in German media currently, where a female celebrity known for taking pride in being sexy and doing erotic posing (I'm not quite sure whether she's doing porn too or ever has done) is not being taken seriously as she accuses a man of having failed to ask for her consent. To be entirely honest I have heard of it first only last night and I am yet to do some research on that, the point however is, that she is slut shamed so much that she's deprived of her right to say no.
Slut shaming from my point of view is a huge massive dangerous reason why victim blaming is such a big thing. And I see slut shaming as a thing pushed by fellow women mostly. It pains me to see it happening, really.


message 6: by Jillian (new)

Jillian | 26 comments Sorry for rambling. I'll come back to this thread after my class and after doing some research on that particular case. Great topic. Much to say. Love to all x


message 7: by VB (new)

VB | 4 comments Really a joy to read. Feminism is about equality. Women and men can both feel how they want to be. I love make up and clothes and being creative with them. I enjoy wearing corsets. These are about expressions of myself.


message 8: by Sandra (new)

Sandra | 265 comments i've heard many so-called feminist rants against women choosing to stay home and raise their children rather than go out and work. thankfully, that is not so much the case anymore, but at the time (and i believe it was in the earlier stages of the women's movement, when a lot of radical thinking was circulating, including that women are better than men) i wondered about this. after i became a mom, i completely dismissed it as ludicrous. i do believe there is no more difficult job than being a parent, having the responsibility for shaping young lives into becoming respectful, independent, helpful adults. just because a person doesn't get paid for this job doesn't diminish its value.

i realize that having a parent stay home (and i've heard plenty of shaming toward stay-at-home dads, too.) in the economic crisis we face around the world is the ideal. but if a person decides that s/he wants to do that, i believe it should be applauded rather than scorned.

just a side note: freedom to do what you want, in my opinion, should contain a caveat - that of not doing harm to yourself or others. as adults, we are, of course, free to do whatever we want, and we will face the consequences of our actions, whether they be positive or negative. i look toward health issues and concerns, which is what i question with wearing corsets. having never worn one, and only seeing them used in movies or videos, they seem like they could be unhealthy; squishing internal organs for long periods of time can't be good for them.

don't mean to offend anyone, am not judging. just health concerns. i mean, people are free to do drugs, if they so desire. drive recklessly. allow their rage to go unchecked. shoot people they don't know simply because said people are of a different faith, sexual persuasion, gender, nationality, etc. is anything unhealthy something to be encouraged? i accept that people will do whatever they want. if my friend does something that is hurtful to self or others, thought, i will voice my concern.


message 9: by James (new)

James Corprew Sandra wrote: "i've heard many so-called feminist rants against women choosing to stay home and raise their children rather than go out and work. thankfully, that is not so much the case anymore, but at the time ..."

Agreed.

While being able to support yourself whether as a man or woman is important so is raising and shaping the lives of children. Nothing wrong at all at being a stay at home mother.


message 10: by Michael (new)

Michael Ståhl | 12 comments What's wrong is a society that doesn't value work done unless it's associated with a company or institution.

There's no single reason why it should be of less value if you decides to take care of your own kids or if you are getting paid to take care of someone else's kids.

What we instead need is a society that value this equally by things such as basic income that also put away money for your retirement (or at least supplies you with enough income to do so yourself).

As I'm living in Sweden we already have something similar to this, but still we have a bit left until work at home is equally treated as work away from home.


message 11: by julianna ➹ (new)

julianna ➹ (juliannnnna) Sandra wrote: "i've heard many so-called feminist rants against women choosing to stay home and raise their children rather than go out and work. thankfully, that is not so much the case anymore, but at the time ..."
Your point about the corsets is true. I actually don't really know if they squish your organs. I was using corsets as a representative of several things, like makeup and clothes.


message 12: by julianna ➹ (new)

julianna ➹ (juliannnnna) I actually just did a quick Google search and skimmed the first site that came up.
The site I used is here: http://yesterdaysthimble.com/articles...
According to this site, a corset generally doesn't hurt too much, unlike the "myth" that they are extremely painful. I think that they might have been tighter way back when, but apparently it doesn't hurt more than a modern underwire bra.
I've also gone on a different site, http://school.eb.com/levels/high/arti...
This doesn't have much information about how they hurt, but there's some general information regarding the history.


message 13: by Bunny (last edited Jun 14, 2016 09:58AM) (new)

Bunny I have a background in costume and historical clothing. For the most part, modern corsets don't resemble the old style corsets of the Victorian and Edwardian era, which had metal or bone inserts and were laced tightly enough to make breathing difficult. Modern corsets are mostly just elastic, so they don't cause the same amount of pain and restriction as the old ones. So it isn't a myth that corsets can be painful and can constrict breathing, displace organs, and hurt people, its just we are talking about two different things.

If people are wearing corsets with metal or bone inserts that are laced tightly enough that they can't breathe properly, yeah, that's not a good idea.


message 14: by julianna ➹ (new)

julianna ➹ (juliannnnna) Bunny wrote: "I have a background in costume and historical clothing. For the most part, modern corsets don't resemble the old style corsets of the Victorian and Edwardian era, which had metal or bone inserts an..."

Oh, okay. I don't really know much.
Well, to clarify, I was talking about modern corsets.


message 15: by Bunny (new)

Bunny Julianna wrote: "Well, to clarify, I was talking about modern corsets...."

Sure, I figured you probably were. If its just about style then really its nobody's business. There are some things that are about safety, for example don't wear loose scarves when working with power tools, you know? Or if you wear high heels a lot its important to take a break once in awhile so your achilles doesn't shorten up. But for the most part style is just up to the individual.


message 16: by Sandra (new)

Sandra | 265 comments and, i agree that style is up to the individual. no problem with that. i had to wear girdles to school throughout junior high and high school, so even the thought of spanx makes me shiver!!! and, i've read articles in the past that such things as girdles/spanx can cause more flabbiness to the muscles cuz they are doing the muscles' work for them!

i don't know. to each their own, of course. by the by, bunny's comment about high heels brought up a memory of a woman i knew who did, indeed, wear high heels all the time - she did so because her husband liked it - and by the time i knew her, he was dead, she was still wearing those heels, and was literally unable to put her heels flat on the floor.

i've grown to the age where style isn't as important as comfort. i've squished my feet into heels, restricted my body so it wouldn't move naturally, used undergarments to give the illusion of something(s) not being quite what it/they really was/were. been there, done that, moved on. i bought a spanx thing just to see what would happen. o my!!! no thank you!!!

but, i have no problem with whoever else wants to do whatever for fashion's or style's or individual taste's sake. some of it i think is over the top - like the woman who had 6 ribs removed, wears a corset, has had breast and butt augmentation, and numerous other plastic surgeries in order that she look like 'barbie'. it was difficult for me to focus on the interview because so many things seemed so unreal to me. but, she's happy with that, and who am i to judge.


message 17: by Bunny (last edited Jun 14, 2016 02:16PM) (new)

Bunny I think one of the misinterpretations that is very common and comes up over and over again with regard to a lot of different subjects is that people oversimplify critiques of the ways in which some traditionally female roles are not adequately valued and instead either turn them into, or think they are criticism of the women themselves.

For example, Sandra raised the issue of women being shamed for choosing to stay at home to raise children. That seems to me like a very NOT feminist thing to do. On the other hand I think it is both fair and reasonable for feminists to say women (or men) that stay at home to care for children run the risk of becoming economically dependent on the wage earning spouse and then what if that spouse dies, or leaves, or just decides they don't feel like supporting the household any longer. So we could talk about how one might deal with that problem without having to shame people who raise kids.

Or to use another example of oversimplifying something into a criticism instead of an exploration and critique, shaming women for how they dress. That's not okay. But talking about workplace dress codes that require high heels, that's a different thing. Because its hard to work a full day in heels. They are fun for dressing up and going out, but if you are going to be on your feet for a long time, they aren't very practical. Also you can talk about why men can't wear them if they want to. That could be a feminist discussion too.


message 18: by Michael (new)

Michael Ståhl | 12 comments There's also nothing stopping us from discussion equal valuation of traditionally female and male traits while at the same time work towards erasing the gender categorization of those traits.

Sort of like helping drug addicts with clean needles while we also work with them to eradicate their addictions. Because minimizing the damage is more important than being a zealot.


message 19: by Apoorva (new)

Apoorva Bhatnagar | 22 comments One should be comfortable in their own skin but at the same time decision to wear anything is an independent and personal choice.
Moreover, everything has merits and demerits.I do not have much idea about corsets but a woman is intelligent enough to weigh what can be beneficial and what can harm her and upto what extent.


message 20: by Sandra (new)

Sandra | 265 comments sometimes i look back to the time of the cave people, and how men and women were made to complement each other, in their shared goal of keeping the species alive and flourishing. men, on the whole, were made w/ more testosterone, muscle mass, and linear thinking in order to hunt for food and protect the home cave. women, as a whole, were given the abilities to bear and nourish children, more spatial thinking, and a nesting desire. this is extremely simplified, of course, but our traits, and corresponding duties worked well in attaining our mutual goal. however, both sexes and their roles were essential, valued, and validated, for the most part.

as the world changed, and as it continues to change, so must our definition of roles. the one thing that must remain the same is the equality of value of what each of us brings to ourselves, our relationships, and our world. somehow, something has gotten lost in these changes. perhaps, we must start from scratch and renew our commitment to raising children to be strong, respectful, independent people, regardless of gender. at the same time we provide ourselves as role models for them to follow and emulate.


message 21: by Bunny (last edited Jun 14, 2016 09:20PM) (new)

Bunny Sandra wrote: "sometimes i look back to the time of the cave people, and how men and women were made to complement each other, in their shared goal of keeping the species alive and flourishing. men, on the whole,..."

There is actually very little evidence that any of that is a true picture of how "cave people" lived. What evidence has been gathered so far doesn't really support that picture. Mostly where that picture comes from is Victorian scientists assuming that their basic assumptions and morals and general way of life was how people in the past must have lived also because clearly it was the only natural and possible way of life.

A bit like The Flinstones cartoons where cave people went to drive ins and had pet dinosaurs and went to hairdressers to get a new style bone in their hair. Except the makers of the Flintstones cartoons knew they were making a joke. Whereas the Victorians spinning tales about cave people didn't.

The idea that "traditional" gender roles have existed largely unchanged since prehistory is widely held but a lot of it is based on bad science and mistakes and untested assumptions.


message 22: by Michael (new)

Michael Ståhl | 12 comments As an advanced student of psychology I could say that the biological inherited difference in how men and women think and what traits we excel at doesn't exist or are so small that it's impossible of trace after controlling for environment.

Shortly. Our genes doesn't create our "female" and "male" traits. Our environment does and as such there is really no need to categorize traits into one or the other if we just treated everyone equally from childhood and onwards.


message 23: by Sandra (new)

Sandra | 265 comments well, my bad, i guess. sorry! i've always looked at it that way because it made sense to me, but not because i learned it from anywhere.


message 24: by Bunny (last edited Jun 15, 2016 09:59AM) (new)

Bunny Michael wrote: "As an advanced student of psychology I could say that the biological inherited difference in how men and women think and what traits we excel at doesn't exist or are so small that it's impossible o..."

MIchael is right. If you were to map the behavior of men and women on a graph you would get two bell curves with an enormous area of overlap but the peaks and tails in slightly different places. In other words we are enormously more alike than we are different and those (small) differences are statistical and don't tell you anything about how a given individual will behave.

Another way to describe it would be like this. If you were to test 100 men and 100 women on some kind of reportedly masculine behavior what you would likely get is 97 men and 94 women falling within the same range and 3 men and 6 women outside it. Statistically yes, that's a gender difference. But to take that tiny difference and say it means men and women are fundamentally different or use it to try to predict how individuals will behave...ummm

The other problem is that we are all so conditioned to think of men and women as very different that it's really hard not to introduce bias into our observations of them. So it's really important to be super cautious when studying these things and use good methodology because there is always going to be a tendency to find what you expect to see.


message 25: by Michael (new)

Michael Ståhl | 12 comments Also, gender difference isn't the same as a difference between sex and certainly not a biological difference.

Boys and girls have been show to score differently on tests, but when told before the tests that boys and girls should be equally good at it, no difference in scoring could be found.

This illustrate how not only societies, but also our own view of ourselves affects how we perform.


message 26: by Bunny (last edited Jun 15, 2016 10:22AM) (new)

Bunny Michael wrote: "Boys and girls have been show to score differently on tests, but when told before the tests that boys and girls should be equally good at it, no difference in scoring could be found ..."

The tendency for people to do worse on a test if they are reminded of an existing sterotype that people like them (men, women, black people, Asian people, Catholics) are not equally good at whatever is being tested, and to score the same as everyone else if they aren't told that is called stereotype threat. The idea is that the energy that it takes to fight against the stereotype takes away from the available energy to do the test. So if you remind people of a stereotype that affects them it will hurt their performance even if they don't agree with the stereotype.

Shankar Vedantem does a good podcast called Hidden Brain about social science and one of the earliest episodes was on stereotype threat. I really enjoyed listening to that one. He interviewed Annie Duke who is one of the few female top level professional poker players and who often has to fight off stereotype threat in her work. She spoke specifically about how she deals with it and they also discussed stereotype lift, where you use the stereotype to your advantage.


message 27: by Michael (new)

Michael Ståhl | 12 comments Yes. But this was done the other way around. First without telling them nothing which show difference in result and then by telling them they shouldn't score differently.

This would then indicate that the boys and girls are already caring with them a preconception of what they should be good and bad at based on their gender.


Hylian Princess  (hylianprincess) | 8 comments I really like that Annie Duke found a way to use the stereotype to her advantage. I find that success will come to us faster if we make the most of the cards we have been given, while seeking better cards, instead of just sitting around and complaining about it. She would not have become as successful as she was if she just complained about those difficulties and let them rule her life. Instead she used those difficulties to boost her higher.


message 29: by Bunny (new)

Bunny Michael wrote: "Yes. But this was done the other way around. First without telling them nothing which show difference in result and then by telling them they shouldn't score differently.

This would then indicate ..."


You can test it different ways. You can test without activating the stereotype first, and then activate it and retest. You can activate the stereotype and test, then wait and retest again later. You can test three different groups one with a stereotype activation, one with a neutral statement, one with no statement at all, and compare the results for all three groups. I've seen all of those designs used.


message 30: by Bunny (last edited Jun 15, 2016 11:31AM) (new)

Bunny Hylian Princess wrote: "I really like that Annie Duke found a way to use the stereotype to her advantage. I find that success will come to us faster if we make the most of the cards we have been given, while seeking bette..."

I have definitely used stereotype lift in my life. One way I often use it is that people tend to underestimate me because I'm female and I can often use that to my advantage in various ways.


message 31: by Bunny (last edited Jun 15, 2016 12:47PM) (new)

Bunny I also heard a really interesting podcast recently talking about replication in scientific studies. And one of the examples that was used was of groups that tried to replicate a classic stereotype threat experiment. One of the groups replicated the results another one of the groups did not and the podcast was talking about how rather than seeing that simply as evidence for or against the original study being right it would be better to look at what the differences were between the study that did replicate and the study that didn't and also the original. Because that would actually provide additional information about what it was that was being measured.


message 32: by julianna ➹ (new)

julianna ➹ (juliannnnna) Michael wrote: "Also, gender difference isn't the same as a difference between sex and certainly not a biological difference.

Boys and girls have been show to score differently on tests, but when told before the ..."


Were only the girls told that they should score about the same, or were both the girls and the boys of them? I'm quite interested in this experiment. Were the boys' scores impacted, or was it only the girls'?


message 33: by Bunny (last edited Jun 17, 2016 09:44AM) (new)

Bunny There have been a number of such experiments Julianna. Here is an example of one of the classic experiments from 1995:

http://www.reducingstereotypethreat.o...

Here is one focused specifically on gender stereotype threat and math from 1998.

http://nuovoeutile.it/wp-content/uplo...

Here's one from 2001

http://www.dingo.sbs.arizona.edu/~sch...

Basically the way the experiments work is that you test people in the absence and in the presence of the stereotype. You test people and then you "activate" the stereotype either with the same group of people or with a different but similarly composed group by referring to it in some way. Then you compare results.

You can activate male stereotypes too. I remember reading about an experiment where they tested people on their ability to figure out a complex series of instructions. One group of (mixed gender) people were told it was a chemical formula that had to be measured and mixed. The other group was told it was a recipe. Men did worse when they thought it was a recipe.


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