The Diary of a Young Girl The Diary of a Young Girl question


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HOLOCAUST DENIAL AND ANNE FRANK
Sean Sean May 06, 2014 06:11PM
Recently, the school board in Rialto, CA began discussing a proposal that the historical truth of the Holocaust should be open for students to debate in the classroom.

I wanted to respond because as an educator, I have had some experiences similar to the events mentioned in Rialto, CA. For some time, I have been a teaching artist in Atlanta working mainly in upper elementary and middle school classes. The teaching artist concept is an interesting multi-disciplinary approach to education and it has been successfully modeled in school systems throughout the country. For a working artist who enjoys working with young people, its a great gig.

Essentially, the teaching artist and the classroom teacher work together to design the program. The classroom teacher outlines their specific learning goals for a particular unit and the teaching artist offers skills from their particular discipline to advance and hopefully enrich the instruction. A language arts unit is planned with a poet who provides students some guidelines for writing their own personal poetry. A theatre artist designs improvisations in a social studies class where the kids debate, frame and act out a bill of rights that works for their community. A nature writer works with an environmental science unit to encourage students to observe and express their impressions of the natural world.

Last year I worked with a terrific language arts teacher and her eighth graders. The students were reading a variety of literature that focused on the lives and experiences of young people. One of the assigned books was THE DIARY OF A YOUNG GIRL by Anne Frank. When I arrived the students had read the book and the classroom teacher had discussed it. My goal was to focus on the subject and author of the diary, the young girl herself - Anne Frank. I asked the students to consider what an extraordinary writer the fourteen-year-old Anne Frank actually was. Here was a girl, the same age as the students in this Atlanta middle school, closeted away in a cramped attic room with her family and a bunch of strangers, hiding from the police and a world at war, struggling with accumulating adolescent angst, churning hormones and profound loneliness, and dreaming of one day being a writer - not a student grudgingly completing an assignment, or the occasional writer toying with a diary, but someone who writes because they are compelled by the deepest chords of the human heart. I asked that each student construct a situation similar to the one Anne Frank was facing, consider the very real elements of isolation, hunger and impending arrest, imagine a day in the life, and then create their own personal diary entries to try and make some kind of sense of it all.

In my typical classroom spiel, I always tell the students that, as a teacher, I welcome their ideas and opinions. I even tell them that they are free to disagree with me - a solid nod to the Georgia Common Core Standards that encourage students to present informed arguments on a classroom topic.

So, like a mindless teenager in a slasher movie I descend into the dark basement, dressed in scanty pajamas, and oblivious to the guy in the hockey mask waiting with the chainsaw.

"So, before we begin our writing," I smile, "would anyone care to share their thoughts or opinion?"

Naturally, the slouching fella in the Metal Death t-shirt who has been smirking throughout my introduction raises his hand.

"Sure." I say confidently. "As I mentioned before , your opinion is always welcome in this classroom."

"Well," says Metal Death, his slouch lazing deeper into his desk. "To begin with, that Anne Frank chick never wrote no diary or nothing else."

"No?' I reply.

"No. Her old man or some other guy pasted the thing together to make money."

"Oh?"

"That's right. And I'll tell you something else."

"Please do."

"There ain't no such thing as no holocaust. Weren't nobody rounded up and put in ovens. It's all just a big lie the Jews said after some war or whatever to make folks feel sorry for them."

"Really?"

"That's right. And I'll tell you something else."

"No, you won't but thank you for sharing."

"I got the right to my opinion."

With surprising calm I reply, "Not in my classroom, dude. Your opinion is wrong. And hateful. And violent. Your opinion is an insult to the millions of innocent people who were murdered in history's greatest crime. So, keep your stupid opinion to yourself."

The slouch straightened. "But you said…"

"Yeah, well, I changed my mind."

And so we got on with our writing workshop. We talked about THE DIARY OF A YOUNG GIRL and what an amazing, courageous young woman its creator must have been. We asked ourselves, as Anne did those many years ago if "Despite everything, people are really good at heart." The students wrote their own personal diaries and they were outstanding.

Now back to the purpose of this discussion. After consideration, I admit to some regret over my treatment of the young scholar Metal Death. I agree that an individual's opinion, however fractious and intolerant, has the right to be heard. I also suspect that lurking behind a fifteen-year-old's fretful rant there is a bullying adult who cares little about the impact his ignorance and bigotry might have on a young mind. In my own defense, I think I have fallen a bit in love with the doomed Anne Frank and I rose to her defense. Too late, sad to say, by some seventy years. As for some local school board blithely debating the truth of the Holocaust, we must again consider that sad question - "Despite everything, are people really good at heart?"



James (last edited May 06, 2014 07:17PM ) May 06, 2014 07:15PM   3 votes
When the Allies started finding the death camps, Eisenhower gave orders that as many Allied troops as possible would go to the camps to see them, the ovens, the bodies, the emaciated survivors. He explained that one day there would be people denying it had happened, and he wanted as many eyewitnesses as possible around.

As for my family, my maternal grandfather was a war crimes investigator in Europe during and after the war. Mom said he would never talk about what he'd seen except to tell her it was real, it had happened. All the more noteworthy in light of his having been somewhat an anti-Semite and general bigot himself. Mom reacted by developing a revulsion for bigotry in any form and that's what she taught us (and, as a first grade teacher, tried to teach the 6-year-olds in her classroom every year.)

When I was a Marine officer, the commander of one unit I was in organized a yearly luncheon that was a mandatory event for the unit's officers, to which he invited all the Holocaust survivors he could find through local synagogues. One of the survivors would speak, describing his or her experience before, during, and since that time, and then we'd sit intermingled with our guests for lunch and conversation. It was a pretty powerful experience, and the idea that all these elderly folks with fading numbers tattooed on their arms recounting similar stories were part of some conspiracy was clearly obnoxious nonsense.

When my own children were old enough to understand, I took them to the Holocaust museum in Los Angeles, and we talked afterward. I can still see the pain in my son's eyes as he asked why anyone could want to do that to people they'd never met, who had done nothing to them, and I could only tell him that I didn't understand it either, but it happened and keeps happening over and over, that I wanted them to know that it was in the world, and to speak out when they saw or heard anything that reminded them of what they'd seen in the museum.

I don't engage in debates with Holocaust deniers (or climate change deniers, etc.) because they aren't interested in a true debate. When anyone enters a debate honorably, he/she must be willing to change his/her mind if presented with evidence forming a strong enough case that his/her starting position is in error. The deniers are arguing under a false pretext, as they are not willing to change their minds no matter what anyone proves to them. Arguing about bigotry with a bigot is like trying to teach ballroom dance to a pig. At the end of the process you're both tired and covered in pig manure, but the pig is the only one who had a good time.


I think the issue at hand here is a balancing of interests of sorts.Freedom of expression is an important right which is inherent to democracy and one that should not be denied lightly.

Still, where I come from holocaust denial is a crime and is, justly, punishable by law. Because how else can you ward people from falling the the vicious circle that is human nature.

Studying history is a tool to learn from mistakes made by our ancestors, to see the signs- recognize them and heed them. To hopefully avoid such calamities in the future.

As was often quoted here: Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it, and those who do know it are doomed to witness them.

That's why it is important to teach children history. This generation, that has become so desensitized to violence and horror, sees the holocaust as nothing more than a story- fiction.

But I assure you, it is not. I have witnessed the ruins of destruction. I have stood in concentration camps. I have seen piles of discarded clothing, teeth, shoes... I have spoken to people with tattooed arms and haunted eyes. I have heard so many stories, I cannot even begin to put them into words.

So it is insulting to me, that despite the meticulous documentation by the nazis proving beyond doubt the atrocities committed by their hands, despite the countless accounts by witnesses and survivors, despite obvious historical landmarks that are self-explanatory, people have the gall or the ignorance to belittle or even deny the Holocaust.

It is to me the ultimate warning of what people are capable of and of how devastating the silence of those who witness is.

And what happens when the last survivor dies? Or when the petition to convert a concentration camp to a discotheque is allowed?

It worries me. So I think yes, the freedom to speak your mind can be limited in some cases.

But above all I find it is a task that falls on teachers and parents to educate the children as such statements are often the result of ignorance, bigotry or anti-semitism.


The original assignment in California schools was something like this: Some people claim the Holocaust didn't happen but was fabricated for political reasons. Research and, using credible evidence, make your argument that it did or did not happen. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the 'point' of the original assignment in the California schools was not to deny the Holocaust but rather to force children to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff in research, and to determine what is and isn't a credible source, and to lead them to come to the proper conclusion that the Holocaust happened. (Using a less controversial assignment would be to say something iike "some people say the world is flat -- do independent research and argue whether it is round or flat.")

Even with that assumption, the problem is this: simply asking the question allows for there to be two answers. It allows the possibility that the answer can be "no, it didn't happen." There are enough people, for whatever reason, that deny this truth, and allowing them any credibility is dangerous. I am a lawyer by trade (writer by desire) and it is a Courtroom tactic actually taught in some trial techniques classes to ask a question on cross examination that you know is objectionable just to get the question out there. For example: Q: When did you first start beating your wife? The other lawyer will object on the grounds that there is no evidence that there was ever any wife beating, which there isn't, but then the seed is planted, and the next thing you know people are wondering if the guy is some abusive jerk.

Freedom of speech is often misunderstood. All it means is that the government can't curtail speech if the speech does not cause direct harm. If it does cause harm, it sure can be suppressed (as Oliver Wendell Jones said, you can't "cry fire in a crowded theater".) And even if you are allowed to speak, you are not free from consequences from that speech. It is the free market of ideas -- if an idea is expressed that is contrary to logic or fact, the market, that is, the listeners, have the right to call the speaker out.

The pen is mightier than the sword. Words do hurt. The Holocaust will happen again if we allow people to deny it.


And evil rears its yappy little head yet again...


I think its a mixture of things... most people i found that deny things that has happened deny. 1. because of their own bigotry. 2. deny because they just can't imagine someone being that spiteful, that evil, to do something like mass genocide. 3. because they've been taught this. 4. because they want attention to themselves even if its negative attention. 5. and because they've been taught to hate authority or the people who reported the events.

Death camps has existed through history and we delude ourselves if we think they are gone...

Hate teaches hate, greed teaches greed, and so forth...

The only thing we can do to make the world better is to teach our children to do better and hope they make the right decision when their turn comes...


Hi Shafar, I think you are confusing two points. You mentioned Germans killed as POWs and this is tragic. In fact I can add that many Fermans civilians paid a high price for what the dictature had done. However, this does not mean that the concentration camps existed. It is also true that even some Jews were concerned about using the 6 million number because it's very difficult to verify it. However, this doesn't matter. The Holocaust happened and everyone should learn from it. I visited a concentration camp and I still vividly remember that experience and what I can't really understand how people can be so violent and brutal. If you can't visit a concentration camp, read Primo Levi's If this is a man.

F 25x33
Kathy I don't think that there is any point in arguing with Holocaust deniers. It is a tragedy that the information they have fabricated is something they b ...more
Jul 13, 2014 06:05PM

Blues (last edited Jun 20, 2014 07:58AM ) Jun 20, 2014 07:57AM   0 votes
Like James in his post above, I don't waste precious time and breath "debating" with holocaust deniers or "supremacists" of any ilk whose agenda by its nature precludes reasonable dialog as well as mutual respect and tolerance.

Having spent some time early on in my career investigating various groups of this sort (and their rabid literature) I can only shake my head in wonder and dismay that such people and organizations exist.

While the disease of blind racial hatred may never find a cure it's imperative that good people everywhere remain vigilant and root it out where found.


I only wish it weren't true. I have a few personal friends that lived it and died it,so yah, to me its real. I find it offensive that anyone denies it!


This reminds me of the book Anne Frank and Me which discusses Holocaust denial. I've only heard about this but I think it's awful that people think it never happened.


Why do these deniers choose the Holocaust? Why not question whether or not Rome was an empire, or that Michelangelo did his art? No one has expressed to me that the Holocaust didn't happen, but I would simply ask, "Why pick that one? Why not deny the Plague? Or Napoleon?" It might give them pause for thought.
Just because someone has advanced a theory does not lend it truth. Unfortunately, repeat something often enough, and some people will start to believe it.

667234
James As the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan put it, 'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.' Unfortunately, in the U.S. education has ...more
Jul 13, 2014 10:07AM

I just can't resist this. Those whose ears and minds are closed to historical voices and to historical facts are doomed to Mental Death.


Thank you for sharing your experience.


Well said, all of you. Very well said. It's unfortunate that people want to discount facts. There's a saying I like; it goes along the lines of Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.

The thing is (as you said, James), the effects of that horrible time were witnessed - WITNESSED - by real people. Who would fabricate such an event merely for monetary or other gain? How about the families of those affected? I doubt they would feign the pain and memories.

Sad.


You can't teach stupid, it is a skill... and now we have 9/11 truthers


Geoffrey (last edited May 06, 2014 07:11PM ) May 06, 2014 07:10PM   0 votes
It´s very hard, even for Metal Death´s, to imagine how deprived human beings can succumb to. It´s the sheer magnitude of the crime against humanity that is too hard for some people to accept. And for Mega Death, his obsession with the dark side of life might be just a means to its denial.
I don´t know if this makes sense. Perhpaps MegaDeath is an anti-Semite and just doesn´t like Jews and has had too many disagreements as to considering their rights today as American citizens.

I congratulate you on shutting him up. They do the same in Germany.


To Shafar:

Re: "If you knew anything about the physical and chemical properties of HCN, you would realize that the the 'eye witness sonderkommando stories about dragging the dead bodies from Auschwitz chamber is an absolute impossiblity"

How does your knowledge of HCN properties counterdict the published documentation on HCN behavior? http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summa...

Re: "if you knew anything about thermodynamics you would realizes that to cremate the number the alleged millions of gassed internees at Auschwitz,it would have taken cremating bodies twenty-four hours a day7 days a week until about 1972."

What thermodynamic data are you using? I'll assume it includes such items as an average mass per body with an average amount of energy required to turn the various body constituents into oxygen, carbon dioxide, and ash plus some rough approximation of incomplete combustion forming other gases and soot, the number of ovens used, the number of bodies in an oven, the amount of time it takes to convert those bodies into the cremated remains, the number of bodies burned, the possibility of open pit bonfires, the type of fuel used and the temp at which it burned and transferred the enthalpy of its burning to the bodies, etc, etc, etc. There will need to be time to empty the crematoria of ash, as well. We'll need to add that time into the total. Claims need to be verified, I agree. Please share the evidence backing your claim.

Re: "if you understood the difference between a gasoline powered engine and a Diesel engine, you would know that the exxhaust from a Diesel engine does not produce Carbon Monoxide, so the "eye witnesses' from Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec who claim the "victims" were gas with the exhaust fro a captured Soviet tank."

Articles published in academic journals have provided documented evidence that death from exposure to diesel exhaust is possible (http://vho.org/GB/c/FPB/toxicity1.png). More evidence than a statement that diesel engines don't normally exhaust CO is needed to support your claim.

Re: "Adolf Eichmann confessed that the victims died from the exhaust from the diesel engine from a captured Russian submarine! The Germans NEVER captured a Russian submarine"

This has nothing to do proving the Holocaust occurred or did not occur. It is a logical fallacy.

Re: "If you knew more history than propaganda you'd know that Eisenhower changed designation German POWs to Disarmed Enemy forces. At a result more th 1,000,000 German were no longer covered under the Geneva conventions. Read about The Rhine meadows were these Germans were place in open meadows, with no latrines, no tents no water facilities no shelter. they had to dig holes and live in them and in no one really knows how many just died in them. I'm not makeing this up it's safe to say that more German POWs and civilians died at the hands of the Allies, than died in Germ INCLUDING THE US,between 1944 and 1948 (three years AFTER THE WAR THAN ACTUALLY DIED IN GERMAN CONCENTRATION CAMPS DURING THE WAR!"

Please point me in the direction of documentation that can support this claim. Without historic documents that can support your claims I have to consider it heresay and without merit.

Providing YouTube links to videos of dubious quality and veracity also fails to support your position. So far I have seen nothing to buttress your argument and everything to relegate your stance to the crowded congregations of fevered imaginings and horrific incredulity.

"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


Judith (last edited Jun 21, 2014 10:45AM ) Jun 21, 2014 10:43AM   0 votes
Okay Shafar - so let's assume you are right - what, exactly, would be the point of fabricating these atrocities? Why are you so vocal in your denial?

Are you also going to deny the killing fields in Cambodia? What about the genocide in Rwanda?

What exactly do you have to gain from denying something that so evidently took place?

I have the feeling that you are very young - but I do know that your are ill-informed and your ignorance of the facts is actually quite breathtaking.


When I began to read that there were people, and even groups, that were saying the Holocaust never happened, at first it seemed absolutely impossible given the facts that have been proven by evidence and witness accounts; both the survivors, the soldiers that witnessed these atrocities, and the citizens of cities that housed the camps.

Well of course we had all heard witness testimony, books have been written, the level of awareness is just too high! Right?

But time moves on. People die. Those who actually lived through this horrific experience, those that saw the camps, those that lived near the camps; they are disappearing.

And when even those eyewitness accounts are being considered untrue, falsified, conspiracies, what is to be our future? When even thousands with tatoos are not believed?

And several of the members have said it; when we all fail to understand the lessons of history, we are doomed to repeat and repeat and repeat. Although nothing has been as horrible as the Holocaust, we see genocide everywhere, every day. And isn't it amazing that the reasons are usually all the same. This or that group, if destroyed, will make the others left living all better. Wasn't that Hitler's argument? If all the Jews (gypsies, mentally ill, homosexuals, etc.) are eliminated, our country will be all better again.

Even now, and seeing what is happening around the world, it still seems impossible to me that there would be that many individuals who are that naive. That is probably why many failed to accept it was happening and now fail to accept it did happen.


Renee E (last edited Jun 22, 2014 10:35AM ) Jun 22, 2014 10:34AM   0 votes
I don't understand how anyone with a shred of brain matter can so vehemently deny something with so much physical and historical evidence.

And it's not like the Nazi "Final Solution" was original.

Races and nations have, throughout history, indulged in genocidal orgies. Just go back and read Old Testament accounts of Hebrew conquests — or Yaweh's disciplinary actions. Cromwell's solution to the Irish Problem . . . Modern day Rwanda . . .

Has the Holocaust been distorted? Yes. Not in being overly demonized, but in being particularized. As Shafar listed, its victims came from many bloodlines, not solely Hebrew.

Ask a Roma how many of their people were destroyed.

But no one's talking about that, lo these many years later.


As far as Death Metal goes, yeah, the line between Freedom of Expression and Indulgence of Stupidity gets a little blurry sometimes.


Firstly I'd like to thank all who contributed to this discussion. I've benefited from all your points of view.

I would say confronting holocaust-deniers is probably best done with reason/logic. By asking the Death Metal kid to explain his knowledge about the subject I think it would be obvious to all that he wasn't up to the task. Turning his "I'll tell you another thing" approach into a request for an alternative account, of what happened, would probably shut him up more successfully than simply telling him not to share his opinion. When he's talked himself out, a simple argument based on the facts: where/when the Anne Frank's diary was found, first published, etc should show that his claims, of it being a hoax-story, are without basis. In a situation such as you describe I think careful reasoning (film footage of Concentration Camps, Nuremberg Trials etc) would allow the class-majority to form their own opinion.

I realize the classroom is not an easy place to discuss such a volatile subject. I'm sure that I too would have found it difficult being provoked by ignorance. Best wishes and keep up the good work.


Before you know it, people will refer the Holocaust as a conspiracy theory! Soooo many people exterminated and yet to deny it ever happened...that is sad!


I think that, unfortunately, part of the problem is that some people are just too lazy to read or educate themselves. The young guy in Atlanta probably did not read anything about the Holocaust, never said educational movies and so on. I am concerned about how many people are denying facts without accepting an open discussion.


Shoshi (last edited May 12, 2014 05:12AM ) May 11, 2014 01:12PM   0 votes
The Holocaust or Shoah happened. Many people cant fathom that the world knew that those horrors happen, right in front of their noses and didnt do anything about it. Their only crime was to be Jewish. Or being of some Jewish blood, or married to one. Many of the German or European Jews were liberal, or had no more connection to it. The Nazis did a very good background search to eliminate everything with the slightest hint of "Jewish" blood. In their eyes, the Jews were "Parasites".
Sure, there were other Genocides and death camps. Russia, Rhwanda, in Vietnam and other places. But nothing was prepared in such a diabolical, well prepared and well planned way. So thoughtfully photographed, documented and talked about. Something the Nazis where proud to do. Because of all that we know now about it more. If you dont believe the survivors, that will show it.


My goodness - how can people deny the Holocaust? Are they suggesting a global hoax of astonishing proportions?

I have heard the term Holocaust denier before but I have never met one - I have often assumed that deniers were just generic trouble makers who latched on to far right ideology for the shock value and didn't really believe the Holocaust didn't happen. The exception to this being David Irving who I put in the same category as David Icke...


Adam (last edited May 08, 2014 11:05AM ) May 08, 2014 11:00AM   0 votes
Metal Death was likely trolling you. Snotty teens often advocate outré positions to get a rise out of authority figures.

Holocaust denial is surprisingly widespread globally. Indeed, in some parts of the Muslim world, it's not a fringe position. Take former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as an example. He is a fervent denier.

Holocaust denial is inextricably tied to anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, too many are unable to divorce disapproval of Israel's foreign policy from such anti-Semitic attitudes.

The best way to deal with deniers is to confront them with the facts. No, they aren't interested in an honest debate-- but there are others on the sidelines who can be swayed one way or the other. Shutting down discussion via speech bans may drive such sentiments underground-- but it will not extirpate them from society. The best disinfectant is sunlight.


James, I have a few things to say.
First of all, honor and respect to your mother for doing what she could to teach that bigotry is wrong.
Secondly, thank you for your service as a Marine. You have my respect. What bigots don't realize is that it's because of people like you that they have the freedom to believe and speak as they wish, regardless of how misguided it is.
Next, thank you for doing things like taking your kids to the holocaust museums. It is only through guidance like this that people come to realize that it is up to us to stop things like this from happening.

To paraphrase the familiar saying, all it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.


death camps have been sadly enough something that keeps returning in our history even if the Nazi's perhaps have gotten the biggest notority. But the British with their internment camps for the Boeren in South Africa, the Turkish for the Armenians, the former Yugoslavians with the camps for muslims all show that humanity can be awefully cruel.

To deny that means you are ill informent and can be called ignorant.


You did well to shut the guy up - it´s simply offensive that someone will say that the most horrible event in World History was a sham, a hoax.

I don´t know if it´s simply ignorance or denial.I live in Europe and, from what i can understand from the few american shows i get here, most students and general population don´t know much about world history or whatever they learn, they quickly forget.

Where i live i don´t know of anyone who ever said that the Holocaust never existed, that was an invention of some sort - we get to read the Diary of a Young Girl at the same time we start WWII, at history classes, and most of us were stunned at the maturity of Anne.

Since you are a teacher, what do you make of this: is this ignorance, perpetuated from father to son, nevertheless abhorring, or just don´t-know-don´t-care, it was a long time ago, in some distant place?


I'm not sure much can be done about the teenage boy, but for the benefit of the rest of the class, it could be useful to point out the mechanics of the situation: Anne Frank confronts people with the humanity of the victims of genocide. Saying she never existed/never wrote the diary is a way of avoiding confronting it. The Holocaust is presented as the terrible consequence of racist and nationalist views. It brands those views harmful and dangerous. Denying the Holocaust is a way of defending the acceptability and harmlessness of those views - or analogous ones. There's probably a cost to this boy's worldview in admitting Anne's humanity and the consequences of certain opinions and he's using the Holocaust as a surrogate to try to avoid that cost.

As for the truth of the Holocaust: imagining teenagers might have learned enough to debate it is like expecting them to discourse intelligently on quantum mechanics. And it flatters them into thinking these things are decided by opinion, not hard-learned evidence.


Kelly Brigid ♡ (last edited May 07, 2014 11:36AM ) May 07, 2014 11:35AM   0 votes
Holocaust is a very real thing. My previous English teacher was a Jew and her father and grandparents lived in Germany during the time of Holocaust. He spoke to our class just a few months ago. He went across the world to reach America and safety. Her father even watched his younger sister die of starvation during this devastating time. How can one deny that holocaust never happened???


I think it really comes down to people wishing that it had never happened. I think people don't want to believe in how cruel humans can be, and how so many turned a blind eye to what was going on. The facts are facts, everything is documented for goodness sakes! There are even holocausts that have happened more recently or that are currently going on now, but many tend to forget or ignore that. The first year I was really informed about the Holocaust was in 5th grade, and I remember then how horrified I was. I didn't want it to be true. But we need to learn from the past, not pretend like we are perfect creatures and ignore it.


This is a great discussion.


I don't know of any Holocaust Revisionist that denies that thousands of internees, Jews and Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mennonites died of disease and starvation in concentration camps in Germany proper and eastern Europe thousands and thousands of French, Dutch, Belgian,Italians, Flemish Danes,Czechs,Slovaks, Austrians, Yugoslavs, Bulgarians, Albanians, Moldavian, Pole, Estonians,Lithuanians Latvians Ukrainians, Greeks,Yugoslavs,Croats, Russians, Tatars, Uzbekis Norwegians,Finns and GERMANS. No Revisionists denies that bodies of the dead particularly of those who died of disease were cremated thousands of bodies were cremated. thousands of German civilians were literally baked to death in air shelters in hamburg, cologne, and Dresden. Men, Woman and children and Allied POWs in Dresden died who were not burned alive were burned to a crisp as fire storms raged sucking up all the oxygen.
Just what those "..facts..." of which you state everything is documented?
I can provide you forensically, verifiable documented evidence of the name, race, gender,age, crime for which the death penalty was imposed, the date of execution and the state where it occurred of all 587 men and 7 women executed in gas chambers in the U.S.A. Did you know that no one anywhere has ever provided forensically verifiable documentation of the name of even one person who died in a gas chamber in Auschwitz or any other "extermination' camp.
It is safe to say that it's more likely that more internees died of accidental drowning in the swimming pool at Auschwitz which existed during the war years and is still in existence today than died in the gas chamber you'tr shown today but did not exist when the Soviets liberate the camp in January of 1945.
If you knew anything about the physical and chemical properties of HCN, you would realize that the the 'eye witness sonderkommando stories about dragging the dead bodies from Auschwitz chamber is an absolute impossiblity; if you knew anything about thermodynamics you would realizes that to cremate the number the alleged millions of gassed internees at Auschwitz,it would have taken cremating bodies twenty-four hours a day7 days a week until about 1972.if you understood the difference between a gasoline powered engine and a Diesel engine, you would know that the exxhaust from a Diesel engine does not produce Carbon Monoxide, so the "eye witnesses' from Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec who claim the "victims" were gas with the exhaust fro a captured Soviet tank. Adolf Eichmann confessed that the victims died from the exhaust from the diesel engine from a captured Russian submarine! The Germans NEVER captured a Russian submarine. If you knew more history than propaganda you'd know that Eisenhower changed designation German POWs to Disarmed Enemy forces. At a result more th 1,000,000 German were no longer covered under the Geneva conventions. Read about The Rhine meadows were these Germans were place in open meadows, with no latrines, no tents no water facilities no shelter. they had to dig holes and live in them and in no one really knows how many just died in them. I'm not makeing this up it's safe to say that more German POWs and civilians died at the hands of the Allies, than died in Germ INCLUDING THE US,between 1944 and 1948 (three years AFTER THE WAR THAN ACTUALLY DIED IN GERMAN CONCENTRATION CAMPS DURING THE WAR!
A good place to start your re-education would bs
here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeEIn...
and here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeEIn...


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