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Fyodor Dostoyevsky Collection > Crime and Punishment Section 3 - Spoilers

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message 1: by Cindy (last edited May 04, 2014 07:55AM) (new)

Cindy Brown (beautygoodbook) Thank You Lisa for being our discussion leader for this book.


message 2: by MK (last edited Jun 02, 2014 12:26PM) (new) - added it

MK (wisny) | 2993 comments Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

Crime and Punishment was chosen from monthly nominations as our June 2014 Old School Classic Group Read. I hope you will join the conversation! Please take care to limit SPOILERS to appropriate threads, so so as to not to give away any plot points prematurely! :)

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message 3: by [deleted user] (last edited May 10, 2014 01:11PM) (new)

Section 3: Chapters 15-20 and Spoilers definitely allowed! :-)

Dmitri Prokofitch Razumihin and Raskolnikov’s family save the day, momentarily.

Part 3 Quotable:

He [Raskolnikov] lost consciousness; it seemed strange to him that he didn’t remember how he got into the street. It was late evening. The twilight had fallen and the full moon was shining more and more brightly; but there was a peculiar breathlessness in the air.

Questions to ponder:

1. Which character(s) do you like the most and the least in this section of reading and why?

2. What role does Razumihin and Sonia play in Raskolnikov’s decisions? Also, why do you think they continue to put up with Raskolnikov’s mood swings and odd behavior?

3. What is your personal opinion of Raskolnikov’s article published in the “Periodical Review”? Does it provide an explanation for Raskolnikov’s decision to follow through with the murder, (assuming he did not dream the whole event)? (Please refer to Part 3, Chapter 5.)


message 4: by Kelly B (last edited Jun 16, 2014 12:12PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kelly B (kellybey) | 266 comments 1. Which character(s) do you like the most and the least in this section of reading and why?

The character I like the most in this section is the sister, Dounia. She seems to be practical and doesn't miss much. She's also willing to be a bit more upfront with R than some of the other characters.

The character I like least in this section is R and Dounia's mother. She's the stereotypical hysterical mother who can see no wrong in her child. I find her extremely irritating.


Janet (goodreadscomjanetj) | 852 comments Kelly wrote: "1. Which character(s) do you like the most and the least in this section of reading and why?

The character I like the most in this section is the sister, Dounia. She seems to be practical and doe..."


I agree with Kelly that Dounia and Raskolnikov's mother is extremely irritating. However the character I liked most was Porfiry Petrovich. The psychological cat and mouse game he played with R was great.


Kelly B (kellybey) | 266 comments 2. What role does Razumihin and Sonia play in Raskolnikov’s decisions? Also, why do you think they continue to put up with Raskolnikov’s mood swings and odd behavior?

I don't think Raz or Sonia have much bearing at all on R's decisions. R doesn't seem to take other people into consideration at all when it comes to his actions. He did give Sonia's family the money for the funeral, but I think that had less to do with Sonia than with R's own strange inner thoughts/rationalizations.

I think Raz continues to put up with R because he thinks R is basically a good person. He also seems to find R really interesting. I think Raz is the type of person who is often involved in others' affairs for one reason or another. He seems to be generous, such as letting his uncle move in with him and throwing him a party.

I don't think Sonia knows R enough yet to realize how odd he is. She also probably feels indebted to him since he gave her family the money.


Kelly B (kellybey) | 266 comments . What is your personal opinion of Raskolnikov’s article published in the “Periodical Review”? Does it provide an explanation for Raskolnikov’s decision to follow through with the murder, (assuming he did not dream the whole event)? (Please refer to Part 3, Chapter 5.)

I think it does provide an explanation. I believe R thinks of himself as one of the extraordinary people who can commit murder for the supposed greater good of society.


message 8: by Andrea AKA Catsos Person (last edited Jun 19, 2014 11:58AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1791 comments 1. Which character(s) do you like the most and the least in this section of reading and why?

The Character that I like most is Razumihin. Raz seems like a sensible easy-going guy. ALthough he too is a poor student like RR, he doesn't live off of anyone and tries to make his own way. He is also generous to RR and puts up with his "moods" bec he feels that RR is a "good person," despite his (RRs) moods etc. The person who I like least besides RR, is his mother. She seems dotingly uncritical of RR. and I don't think that RR treats his mother and sister well and appreciates the sacrifices that they make for him. Also, despite his poor treatment of her, RR is obviously her favorite of her two children. Also, if the mother had any regard for Dounia, she should not have let her borrow against her future earnings with her employers, thereby getting into debt, to send monies to RR. I blame the mother for the untenable position that Dounia was placed in when the man of the house was makign things intolerable for Dounia so stay there, but she could not leave bec she was in debt to her employers. However, I think that the period and culture in which this story took place, male children were more highly prized than female. This is still true today in other parts of the world as well.

2. What role does Razumihin and Sonia play in Raskolnikov’s decisions? Also, why do you think they continue to put up with Raskolnikov’s mood swings and odd behavior?

I think that Raz puts up with RRs mood swings bec he is loyal and believes that RR is a good person. So despite RRs ingratitude to Raz when he tries to help RR, he (Raz) has a strong sense of loyalty. I don't know what Sonia's motivations are.


3. What is your personal opinion of Raskolnikov’s article published in the “Periodical Review”? Does it provide an explanation for Raskolnikov’s decision to follow through with the murder, (assuming he did not dream the whole event)? (Please refer to Part 3, Chapter 5.)

Edit.

My personal opinion of RRs article is that if extraordinary men are "above" the law or can commit crimes fror the sake of progress or the greter good, who is it who decides who is extraordinary and who is ordinary? In addition, how can we determine who is fit to decide what is the greater good of a society or ordinalry people? Think that RRs "theory" or argument lends itself to hubris on the part of persons who determine that they themselves are "extraordinary" men. There is nothing in place at the societal-level to determine who is extraordinary enough not be accountable or held accountable to society's laws in the same ways that ordinary men are.


message 9: by [deleted user] (new)

@ Kelly,

That is a well worded insight about who decides who is extraordinary and therefore above the law. It seems RR has self-appointed himself into that class based on his beliefs and perhaps ego??


message 10: by Katy, New School Classics (new) - added it

Katy (kathy_h) | 9112 comments Mod
Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoyevsky is our 2019 2nd Quarter Long Read for the group. The group previously read the book in 2014.

This is one of seven Spoiler Threads

Reading schedule:

April 1 - 15: Part One

April 16 - 30: Part Two

May 1 - 15: Part Three

May 16- 31: Part Four

June 1 - 15: Part Five

June 16 - 30: Part Six & Epilogue

Book as a Whole

Film versions of the book.

Previous thread on translations


Cynda | 2357 comments Part 3. Chapter 5.
The small gathering at Razumikhin's uncle's apartment seems like a trap for RR and to RR.
Dostoevsky's imprisonment among murderers seems to have served well.
1. Serves the writer well. Helps him tk write a great psychological novel. I imagjne a prison of men who have nothing to do and no place tk go except into their heads where they live and re-live the drama leading up to the murder and the torment they, their friends, families, communities, etc dealt with as a result of the murderers' actions.

2. Serves we the prisoners well. The prisoners told their stories to each other in the presence of Dostoeksvy, allowing the writer to write the novel and allowjng the prisoners to warn others to avoid murdering others. Human conscience is a driver. Be careful where it drives you.


message 12: by Cynda (last edited Apr 29, 2019 08:44PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Cynda | 2357 comments Frustration Part III, Chapter VI
Reading from trans by Nicolas Pasternak Slater
In this translation this line very near the end of the chapter:

"You ought to pay more attention," remarked Razumkhin.

can refer to either the paragraph immediately above or immediately following. Will someone please tell me where their translation places this line? Several people responding would help me to go with the consensus.
So would appreciate your help.


Laurie | 1547 comments Cynda wrote: "Frustration Part III, Chapter VI
Reading from trans by Nicolas Pasternak Slater
In this translation this line very near the end of the chapter:

"You ought to pay more attention," remarked Razumkhi..."


In my book (Michael Katz translation) this statement is at the end of chapter V. It isn't part of either paragraph but a statement appearing as a paragraph of it's own. My translation says "You must be more careful," Razumikhin observed gloomily.


message 14: by Pamela (last edited May 01, 2019 07:51AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Pamela (bibliohound) | 243 comments Cynda wrote: "Frustration Part III, Chapter VI
Reading from trans by Nicolas Pasternak Slater
In this translation this line very near the end of the chapter:

"You ought to pay more attention," remarked Razumkhi..."


In my version (Garnett translation) it's towards the end of Chapter 5. In the preceding paragraph Porfiry says "I quite muddled it." Then the next paragraph is as follows:

"Then you should be more careful," Razumihin observed grimly. The last words were uttered in the passage. Porfiry Petrovich saw them to the door with excessive politeness.

I would say the use of 'then' in my version definitely makes it a response to the previous paragraph.


message 15: by Cynda (last edited May 01, 2019 07:57AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Cynda | 2357 comments Thank you Pamela.
Then my answer came later as I read on. Razumihin talked more Porfiry.✔


Pamela (bibliohound) | 243 comments Cynda wrote: "Thank you Pamela.
Then my answer came later as I read on. Razumihin talked more Porfiry.✔"


Oh good, I'm glad it makes sense.


Pamela (bibliohound) | 243 comments I enjoyed Razumihin's drunken babbling and his infatuation with Dounia. It was wise of Dostoevsky to give us a more humorous interlude as RR's torment was getting kind of oppressive.


Terry | 1198 comments Pamela, yes, I agree. Much needed humorous relief!


message 19: by Matt (new) - rated it 5 stars

Matt (mmullerm) | 676 comments Just finished chapter 5 of part 3. Raskolnikov’s thoughts about ordinary vs. extraordinary people and the latter group’s inborn ability to bend or or break the rules of their society and make changes is very thought provoking.


Terry | 1198 comments I am reading ahead. I can see that it is well written, and is truly an exploration of human psychology, but I really don’t much like spending time with any of these characters. So I am reading it mostly so I can say I have read it, and be done with it. I am sure this is a contrarian view, and I was hoping that the author would give me more to like, but so far, as they say, “alas, alack and Alaska.” I think I just want to be through with book.


Cynda | 2357 comments Terry I definitely felt like that: Read & Checked Off. This time I am seeing things differently--but still not thrilled. I am hoping by the time I finish the novel that I can rate it 3 stars, or what is the point of re-reading.


message 22: by Cynda (last edited May 10, 2019 12:01AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Cynda | 2357 comments Matt wrote: "Just finished chapter 5 of part 3. Raskolnikov’s thoughts about ordinary vs. extraordinary people and the latter group’s inborn ability to bend or or break the rules of their society and make chang..."

Please Matt. Will you expand your ideas? "Interesting" covers such a wide range that I would be interterested in what you are thinking.


Terry | 1198 comments Cynda, thanks for the empathetic response to my post. I thought perhaps I was alone out there. I am hoping to give it three stars, too, but am reserving final judgment until I finish.


ShazM | 15 comments Terry wrote: "Cynda, thanks for the empathetic response to my post. I thought perhaps I was alone out there. I am hoping to give it three stars, too, but am reserving final judgment until I finish."

You are definitely not alone! I'm listening to this on Audible during my commute because I'm convinced that if I tried to actually read it I wouldn't be able to stay awake! The only drawback has been that I've had to keep looking up the spellings of names so that I can keep track of who's who.

Having said that, I'm a little more than half way through and I am feeling a bit more interested but more in what's going to happen with Dunya. Rodion is such an unpleasant character and I have no patience with him flip-flopping about in his mind!


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