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message 1: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Oh no, another Bible error or contradiction. Or simply failed theology? Here's what we got to work with:

Matthew 12:40
For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I'm no history expert. But let's have a look: Jesus was Dead
Friday DAY, Saturday DAY, and Sunday a bit. Depending on where on the planet you are standing at the time.

Many hate this next challenge:
Friday NIGHT, Saturday NIGHT, and Sunday???? Oh No.

Although technically we can count Friday (2X): Mark 15:33
And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

I know, not specific enough for some. Especially if Jesus died at the END of the Friday darkness. But even a few minutes of darkness count. This is theology: not Rocket science in a lab with a micrometer.

God likes to cut things to the edge of contradiction. This IS His game after-all.


message 2: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments You forget the most obvious contradiction: John's Gospel says Jesus died before Passover, and the Synoptics tell how he ate the Passover meal with his disciples.


message 3: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Before Passover WHAT? BE specific Lee. Passover Week? A Passover dinner? The whole Passover festival in a town?


message 4: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments In the Jewish calendar, the day runs from dusk to dusk (6pm to 6pm). Passover commences with the Passover Seder which is celebrated at dusk, as 14 Nisan becomes 15 Nisan.

In John, Jesus dies 14 Nisan. In Mark, he is still alive and eating on 15 Nisan. This is well-known by every Bible scholar, I'm surprised you have to ask.


message 5: by John (new)

John Hanscom | 276 comments I agree with Lee, but for different reasons. As he says, the Hebrew day starts at sunset. To the first century way of thinking:

Jesus died and was placed in the tomb before sunset = day 1
FR sunset to SA sunset = day 2
SA Sunset until whenever the Resurrection took place = Day 3.

This is yet another example of what drives me crazy about these threads - things taken out of context and then used to disprove the context. A seminary professor said, "A text without a context is a pretext."


message 6: by Rod (last edited Mar 04, 2016 10:13AM) (new)

Rod Horncastle I'm only asking so we can see what each others sources are.

Leviticus 23
The Passover

4“These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them. 5In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD’s Passover. 6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work. 8But you shall present a food offering to the LORD for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.”

This is fun - i'm by no means an expert on Jewish feasts. But it is interesting that none of my favorite (or even lesser favorite) Bible scholars even see this as an issue. Apparently only YOU and some liberal scholars do.
So, indeed it's worth looking into.

" for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread."
That's a LOT of unleaven bread. Quite a few meals.


message 7: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle John 19:
Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, “Behold your King!”

My commentary Bible says: "Thus all four canonical Gospels concur that Jesus' last supper as a passover meal eaten on thursday evening.

Here's a fun comment from the commentaries.
...it was nearing the time "about the middle of the day on the day of Preparation" when the Passover lambs would begin to be sacrificed in Jerusalem...


message 8: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Matthew 27:
62The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate 63and said, “Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64Therefore order the tomb to be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away and tell the people, ‘He has risen from the dead

Luke 23:54
It was the day of Preparation, and the Sabbath was beginning.

Mark 15:42
42When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.…

I'm just throwing all the pieces on the table. Let's see what we got to work with.


message 9: by Rod (last edited Mar 04, 2016 10:33AM) (new)

Rod Horncastle Once again Lee said:
"In John, Jesus dies 14 Nisan. In Mark, he is still alive and eating on 15 Nisan. This is well-known by every Bible scholar"

John 19 says:
Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, “Behold your King!”

So are we dealing with a DAY issue? Or a time of day issue?

Mark 14:
12And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, “Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?” 13And he sent two of his disciples and said to them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him, 14and wherever he enters, say to the master of the house, ‘The Teacher says, Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 15And he will show you a large upper room furnished and ready; there prepare for us.” 16And the disciples set out and went to the city and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover.

17And when it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18And as they were reclining at table and eating

My commentary says:
The first day of unleavened bread could refer either to Nisan 14 or Nisan 15 according to Jewish reckoning in the NT era, and Passover lambs were apparently killed on both days, but here Mark is referring to Nisan 14 (thursday).
...after sunset, with the beginning of Nisan 15, the Passover meal begins.
______________

I'm a theologian - not a historian or Jewish calendar expert. But it's fun to learn.


message 10: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments The Jewish passover is HUGE. Read Josephus, for example, when he estimates a quarter million lambs killed for the Passover Sedar. There are not two Sedars; passover lambs were not "apparently killed on both days." (Your commentary, Rod, is essentially saying "oops, we recognize the contradiction, so apparently they celebrated the Passover ritual two days in a row").

The Gospel of John cannot be understood without deep research into Jewish festival customs, so in order to publish about that Gospel, I had to do considerable research.

This isn't a matter of day or time. It's a matter of recognizing that in one Gospel, Jesus is dead before the Passover arrives; in the others, he celebrates Passover with his disciples.

If anyone believes the Gospels are all in agreement, and wants to take a stance on which side of the Passover meal (before or after) Jesus died, we can look at the evidence. But, seriously, this is a known contradiction that every Bible scholar is aware of.

Rod, when you say "But it is interesting that none of my favorite (or even lesser favorite) Bible scholars even see this as an issue.," it says something very clearly: you read only "scholars" who do not have a clue about scholarship in their field. Nobody could be a knowledgeable Bible scholar in this day and age and not know about this contradiction.


message 11: by Xdyj (new)

Xdyj Rod wrote: "Once again Lee said:
"In John, Jesus dies 14 Nisan. In Mark, he is still alive and eating on 15 Nisan. This is well-known by every Bible scholar"

John 19 says:
Now it was the day of Preparation of..."


Just curious, are you here justifying your position by some "commentary" written by some random person? Is this allowed for a biblical literalist who believes in sola scriptura?


message 12: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I haven't justified anything yet - I'm saying: clearly put all the pieces on the table.

Lee what is your favorite Bible translation? Do you fully trust Those scholars? Why trust one historian over another?
Please show a quote of your scholar expert Translator showing this error and contradiction. And don't show Borg or Spong or Enns (that would be just silly).


message 13: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle So far I don't have a position. Convince me very specifically that there's a problem.


message 14: by Lee (last edited Mar 05, 2016 08:31AM) (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments I don't understand the need for a translation, Rod. Your translation in post#7 is just fine, except for that silly commentary, which couldn't be further from the truth. ("Thus all four canonical Gospels concur that Jesus' last supper as a passover meal eaten on thursday evening.")

Nor do I think there's any problem at all. John's genre of writing is clear to me, and I love the way he meaningfully ties the death of Jesus (whom he calls the Lamb of God) to the time the Paschal lambs are dying in the Temple. You are the one who attempts to read the Gospels as if they were history books.


message 15: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments No comment? Here is the comparative passage in Mark, where Jesus eats the Passover:

Mark 14:12-17 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? ... And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

Still quite alive after Passover begins.


message 16: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Thank you Lee for the wonderful compliment:
" You are the one who attempts to read the Gospels as if they were history books. "


message 17: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I've looked through a few more books digging for this problem or contradiction. Still nothing. Just to be clear:

Jesus eats the Passover on Thursday after 6 pm.
Jesus dies just before Dark on Friday.
Sunday Morning Jesus is UP & ABOUT!

I'm still having fun with this - don't worry. Just a slow build up. (i'm no expert.)


message 18: by Rod (last edited Mar 06, 2016 08:19PM) (new)

Rod Horncastle Lee, is your whole argument really riding on John 18:28

so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover.

Some comments say: "To eat the Passover WHAT? Exactly? Defiled why?

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible says:
It is easy to observe the consciences of these men, who were always wont to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel; they scruple going into the judgment hall, which belonged to an Heathen governor, and where was a large number of Heathen soldiers; but they could go along with these into the garden to apprehend Christ, and spend a whole night in consulting to shed innocent blood: no wonder that God should be weary of their sacrifices and ceremonious performances, when, trusting to these, they had no regard to moral precepts: however, this may be teaching to us, in what manner we should keep the feast, and eat of the true passover, Christ; not with malice and wickedness, as these Jews ate theirs, but with sincerity and truth: besides, a sanhedrim, when they had condemned anyone to death, were forbidden to eat anything all that day (h); and so whilst scrupling one thing, they broke through another.
___________________

When Satan, or Demons, or the Sanhedrin, or Jezebel... says something: best to seriously question its motive and truth.

I still haven't found any serious writings that say this sentence confuses the Gospel re-liabilities...


message 19: by Rod (last edited Mar 06, 2016 08:37PM) (new)

Rod Horncastle Matthew 27:15 is important:
Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to release for the crowd any one prisoner whom they wanted.

Fun comment:
Which Governor? The Roman Governor? And he cares about this how: certainly not religiously or historically - simply politically.
Before the meal, after the meal, during the meal or simply whenever he damn well felt like it THAT festival week. (since he was a Roman and this stuff annoyed him.) Hard to put a timeline on this comment.

Not much of a MEAL feast if everyone is outside looking to lynch someone. Is that a appetizer or a dessert menu item?


message 20: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments The question is really very simple, Rod. You're trying to make it complicated, and it's not. Did Jesus die before the Passover Sedar (John) or after the Passover Sedar (Mark)?

Don't throw Thursday or Friday at me, because we don't know when Passover was that week. Our best guess is that Jesus died in 30 AD, which agrees with Luke, and our best guess by computer analysis is that Passover was Thursday that week (beginning Wednesday night).


message 21: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Why do you fight this so hard, Rod? This is just one of dozens of obvious contradictions. Your understanding of the Bible would grow tremendously if you'd just let go of the fallacy that it's somehow historically inerrant.


message 22: by Lee (last edited Mar 07, 2016 06:55AM) (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Here, I'll throw all John's verses together for you, so it's obvious:

John 18:28: Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

John 19:14: And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

John 19:31: The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

John 19:42: There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

The preparation day, if you're not familiar with Jewish custom of the first century, was the day the lambs were slaughtered. They were brought to the Temple and sacrificed in three waves; it took all afternoon. They ate the lambs that evening, after 14 Nisan became 15 Nisan (Passover day). Note in verse 31 John makes it clear that it's not the day before Saturday that Jesus dies, but the day before Passover (Passover is a "high sabbath" but Saturday is not)

That is why some fundies try to say Jesus ate the Passover a day earlier than the rest of the City, but Mark makes it clear this was not the case in his version. Note the reference to the first day of unleavened bread, which is the day the Passover meal was eaten:

Mark 14:12-17 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? ... And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

This, like dozens of other examples, is a clear contradiction between the Gospels for people who attempt to read the Bible as a history book. There is no way to avoid it without jumping through numerous hoops.


message 23: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle This is too interesting Not to see how complicated it can get.

Don't assume what the rest of Jerusalem was doing. Stick with the text.


message 24: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle You would think somebody would have simply tightened this issue up over the last 1900 years. Especially if it isn't Holy Spirit written. But Nope - fun as always.


message 25: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Yep. Stick with the text. Crystal clear.


message 26: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Crystal Fun. God is sneaky.


message 27: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments I know. He hides dinosaur bones in the ground to make us think the earth is older than 6,000 years. :)


message 28: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle No. That ones simple - we find some old bones and start making freaky assumptions based on??? Mostly a desperate timeline.


message 29: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Bible is not simply a history book - it gets inside the very heart and soul of the characters. The Holy Spirit will tell the truth about a lying heart.


message 30: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle This is a good issue Lee. To simply accept the text - and yet do you do the same with the anti homosexual verses? Not a chance - you dig and explore and flip for a desperate solution.

We should dig for every issue.


message 31: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Precisely correct, Rod. Which is how I came up with the seven long posts about homosexuality in the Bible a while back. Research does not mean "search until you can find a verse in the Bible which agrees with Rod."


message 32: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle ...or Lee.


message 33: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle What matches scripture as a whole - if it doesn't: Chuck the whole thing and become a Buddhist Atheist with no foundation. Just don't cry about it or cherry pick tasty liberal verses.


message 34: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments NOTHING matches scripture as a whole. It can't when many different opinions are expressed in scripture.


message 35: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Remember: it's God's story.

We flounder about as minor characters.


message 36: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Just heard a John MacArthur sermon on the Passover. Differences between Judean and Galilian. Sadducees and others.


message 37: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Luckily, it doesn't matter, preparation day is preparation day. But if you want to be on the safe side, choose Judean for all discussion. We are talking about Jerusalem. And since the Sadducees were in control of the Temple, it is they who define and participate in "preparation day" as discussed in the Bible.


message 38: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Shouldn't we critique each Gospel author (and contents) based on their personal statistics?

But you raise a good point lee: (by default)

When I read the Bible, I mentally label things as :
1) easily factual - Rome, humans, donkeys, air, earth...
2) challenging and questionable - possible contradictions. dates.
3) people being people - Love, friends, death, comfort, work.
4) miracles - not much I can do about those. Except align them theologically.

Then see if they all fit together. And give God the benefit of the doubt. (this must be applied fairly to all religions and Atheism). Whoever breaks their own rules - loses.


message 39: by John (new)

John Hanscom | 276 comments "Whoever breaks their own rules - loses."

The Church has a name for this, Rod. It is called "heresy." This puts the loci of power on us, rather than God. Regardless of whether a person takes the 2nd origin story as factual or parable, this self-centeredness was the Sin of Adam.


message 40: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments the problem, Rod, is your "give God the benefit of the doubt" methodology. Too often for you it means "search the fundie boards until I can uncover one teensy weensy possibility of consistency, and assume that opens the door to give God the doubt.

For example, it appears you are agreeing that John says clearly that Jesus died before the traditional Passover, and you're now assuming:

1. When Mark says THE Passover, he means the day before traditional Passover.
2. When Mark mentions the "day they killed the lamb," the "they" he speaks of is non-conformists who kill a lamb on their own (rather than in the proper Temple ritual) a day before they're supposed to.
3. When Mark mentions "the first day of Unleavened Bread" he really means only for those who break tradition and start the week of unleavened bread a day early.

Let's be honest about how silly this is. It's like me saying "my sister flew in on Christmas day" and expecting you to know that means the day before Christmas because at my house, we celebrate a day early.


message 41: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Depends on your sister. Does she historically own a watch or calendar?


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