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Mar—All About Love (2016) > Quote/Passage and Meaning

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message 1: by Tiffany (new)

Tiffany I am glad that this work was chosen for this month's read. I've read this a few years back and re-reading it now, using my old scribbled book.

If I may suggest, as you move along with the reading, post the page # of passages that strike you the most and let me know how you relate to it. I love knowing/learning about what goes on in someone's mind whenever they read something -- sort of an active reading with the entire group, only when the thought arises, please do share.

To start, I've found the 2nd to the last paragraph of chapter 1, (pp13-14) to be a good starting point of reframing "love" from being a "feeling" into "action," which reminds us of how love as action impacts ourselves and the way we interact with others. It is not just something related to our emotion but something real and experienced, tapping into the real power of love.

I get excited, so please do share the portions that catch your attention, as you move along.

Cheers,
Tiffany


message 2: by Evelia (new)

Evelia | 89 comments This are my thoughts after reading Part one(pages 1-15):
I agree about how she says that people are afraid to love. I am afraid to love, since it means that I will have to risk a lot. In my life I try not to get close to that many people. I try to stay in my safe zone, for me that has been enough. I think that love is not for me, mainly from what I have seen from the people I know.
That maybe if there was a true definition of what love is then everyone could understand it, and it would make thinks clear to one. But so far the word love is something unreachable that are only for some.
Also she mentions that women buy a lot of the self-help books and that there is no clarify whether this books help those women who buy them.


message 3: by Kressel (new)

Kressel Housman | 436 comments So far, I liked the chapter on childhood best. I liked her idea that the best way to teach a kid discipline is to teach him to clean up after his own mess. I must admit, I've been pretty lax in that regard.

Here's a quote I find relevant because of discussions I've had elsewhere in the group: "Indeed, if patriarchal masculinity estranges men from their selfhood, it is equally true that women who embrace patriarchal femininity, the insistence that females should act as though they are weak, incapable of rational thought, dumb, silly, are also socialized to wear a mask - to lie."

If that's the definition of patriarchy, then I am glad to say that Judaism is not patriarchal because we have no value for women acting dumb or silly. Modest, yes, but not dumb or silly. But you'll see that kind of behavior from girls all the time in modern-day high schools in this era of liberation. That's why I say that patriarchy is more insidious in the secular world. People think it's not there, but it most definitely is.

I've also been thinking of Gloria Steinem's assertion that there is no such thing as masculinity and femininity. I don't know if I agree, but perhaps then hierarchy does not necessarily mean patriarchy either. Was it Voldemort who said, "There is no good. There is no evil. There is only power." So if there is no male and female, masculine and feminine, or good and evil, perhaps there's only power, and its antithesis, love.


message 4: by Tiffany (new)

Tiffany Thank you, Kressel and Evelia for sharing your notes.

Chapter 6 is my most notable chapter, but the passages from pp 89-91 stood out the most, as it points out the disconnect between our recognition of the innate value of love and the ethics that come with it. We know how to love, we recognize the feeling, yet we refuse to be responsible and only choose certain recipients of it. It's as if we are half-hearted in truly embracing what it means to love. At least that's my interpretation of it. I will continue to let this portion brew.

Cheers


message 5: by Tiffany (new)

Tiffany Thank you, Kressel and Evelia for sharing your notes.

Chapter 6 is my most notable chapter, but the passages from pp 89-91 stood out the most, as it points out the disconnect between our recognition of the innate value of love and the ethics that come with it. We know how to love, we recognize the feeling, yet we refuse to be responsible and only choose certain recipients of it. It's as if we are half-hearted in truly embracing what it means to love. At least that's my interpretation of it. I will continue to let this portion brew.

Cheers


message 6: by Tiffany (new)

Tiffany Thank you, Kressel and Evelia for sharing your notes.

Chapter 6 is my most notable chapter, but the passages from pp 89-91 stood out the most, as it points out the disconnect between our recognition of the innate value of love and the ethics that come with it. We know how to love, we recognize the feeling, yet we refuse to be responsible and only choose certain recipients of it. It's as if we are half-hearted in truly embracing what it means to love. At least that's my interpretation of it. I will continue to let this portion brew.

Cheers


message 7: by Tadej (last edited Mar 04, 2016 09:56AM) (new)

Tadej Brunšek (tad3j) | 145 comments I have not yet read the book, but I am struggling to get it, however I would like to add something out of my work here.

There is a difference between "being in love" and "to love". Being in love is this sensational feeling at the beginning when we first met suitable person, that we fall in love with. Being in love stopped with more or less powerful depression - the power of the depression is determined within the individual and accepting of himself. The more one individual does not accept himself, the more powerful depression experiences. But here is the catch. From here on, there we can develop a true love (where we love), or we go to more or less "quality relationship" but still relationship without a love. We call those relationship also partner staleness.

Because there is very, very, very rare that love exist in nowaday, because most of the people wear a masks and try to make impression on others instead of being what they are, understanding that mistakes are something normal in everyday, understands that they don't have to apologize for everything and that they don't have to please blindly the loved one, but to find peace in themselves, and to please themselves and build as much possible strong person of inside, ... the person that understand that they have what they need in life, that he/she is born in the place where he/she is mention to be born to realise important life meanings, the persons who is feeling well in his skin and do not want to be in the place of others, that person, can ... love. This is called accepting himself and for true love, we need two people who accepts himself on the first place and in the second place, accept each other. True love between one accepting himself and another not, cannot occur.

The one who cannot accept partners bad side, he does not deserves his good side. We are all different, and we cannot just imagine, that someone is going to behave like "anima" in our head during our "being in love" process.

However, being in love, this sensational feeling of butterfly in tummy, does not lasts forever but passes away in roughly 6-12 months, with the ones who are first time in love also up to 2 years. This is because our minds did not now this feeling in our lifetime yet and at the first falling in love, is those sensation very strong. It get's however milder with the number of partners we fall in love. But still, this is all "falling in love" and not a true love.

True love is the most perfect way of living, loving and fulfill our lifes <3 ;)


message 8: by Melle (new)

Melle (feministkilljoy13) | 68 comments I'm reading chapter 2 and wanted to high five her about corporal punishment and how it relates to children and how they grow up and mature. It's so right on. How can a child who is told they're being hit to teach them a lesson grow up to not think violence is a solution??


message 9: by erika (new)

erika | 36 comments Tiffany wrote: "I am glad that this work was chosen for this month's read. I've read this a few years back and re-reading it now, using my old scribbled book.

If I may suggest, as you move along with the reading..."


LOVE IT!! I have been doing that on my own-- creating a running list on my phone. Now I have a place to SHARE!!


message 10: by Andrea (new)

Andrea Vega (neapoulain) For me the best part so long is the second chapter. I really have struggle with some others because I'm realising how different my culture ir from hers but the book it's still good.

However, chapter 2 was a real highlight in the book and, for me, deeply personal. I do not remember the quote exactly but I recall she says something about how confusing it was for children the way people who loved them so much, still abused them (hit them). As somthing I've lived, I was so much identified in that chapter.


message 11: by Barb (new)

Barb (barbie15) | 15 comments I am not very far into the book. I came across a quote in the Introduction (pg. xxiii) 'Male fantasy is seen as something that can create reality, where as female fantasy is regarded as pure escape.'

I never thought of fantasy in this way, but this statement struck me as true.


message 12: by Paula (new)

Paula | 45 comments As I started reading chapter 1, when I got to the passage at the middle of pg. 4, Bell Hooks mentioned that there are so many definitions on the word Love that it would be good to have one that is shared, one that we could all see as real love and I agree. It would be a lot less confusing to see Love defined only once, in a more positive way, as an action, an act of free will, a choice, not just a feeling. Love has always been confusing to me, especially when I was younger. As I grew up I didn't know what real love felt like because the definition of Love was always so broad. My parents didn't even know what true love meant, or the rest of my family, so it messed me up, too. I feel like if we all had a shared definition of love things like this wouldn't happen and more families would treat their children better. We need that in society right now, in a world where lots of children are treated disrespectfully and are neglected. It needs to end, and finding out what true love is is a good place to start.


message 13: by Tiffany (new)

Tiffany Thanks for sharing everyone. Your interpretations offer a new insight for me, and I will ponder on these as my week starts. Clearly, there is no one way of reading this body of work, and I truly appreciate everyone's input.

I am still in the process of re-reading and rediscovering, so I'll add more as soon as I have a portion I'd like to share.


message 14: by Kressel (last edited Mar 07, 2016 06:30AM) (new)

Kressel Housman | 436 comments Actually, in the Chareidi world in the U.S., the girls get the more well-rounded secular education. For boys, it's Gemara, Gemara, and more Gemara. There's a group called Yaffed here that is even bringing lawsuits about it, and one of their claims is discrimination against boys.

But I'm glad you brought up unschooling. In her interview with bell hooks, Emma said that she was considering graduate school, but it turns out she's learning so much just by reading and talking to people. I dream of grad school, but since I can't afford it, reading and discussing books here on Goodreads has become my un-schooling alternative.


message 15: by Kressel (new)

Kressel Housman | 436 comments Moving ahead in the book, here's a quote from the chapter on romance: (p. 174) "The pressure on men in a patriarchal society to "perform" sexually is so great that men are often so gratified to be with someone with whom they find sexual pleasure that they ignore everything else."

Yesterday, the New Yorker Radio Hour did a segment on a new play called "Slut" with a cast of teenage girls. One has been raped and is giving her testimony as a monologue while the others are sort of a Greek chorus, gossiping amongst themselves as to whether they believe her or if she's a "slut."

The director is now doing a second show that runs concurrently. This one is with an all-male cast, and it's called "Now That We're Men." The director mentioned this pressure on young men, and said that in preparing for the play, she discovered that most young men really want to be loving, but those pressures force them to be anything but. Talk about #HeforShe. The two plays sound just like the sort of healing the world needs.

Link to the radio segment: http://www.wnyc.org/story/slut-play-e...


message 16: by Kressel (new)

Kressel Housman | 436 comments My oldest son is an unschooler who completely believes in "learning by doing" and not a whole lot of guidance. Yesterday we went into the woods and tapped six maple trees for sap. He showed ME what to do. But I think it helped that he had a willing student and he got to be the guide.


message 17: by Kressel (new)

Kressel Housman | 436 comments Oh, I've got the obedient types also. My rebel recently shechted a goat and examined its anatomy first-hand. My honors student is learning about anatomy from a high school text book. I don't know which one knows more.


message 18: by Simone (new)

Simone | 85 comments In page 8,she wrote 'Remember,care is a dimension of love,but simply giving care dose not mean we are loving.' I highly agree with that.Care is just a ingredient of love but not the only one.and she wrote in page 5, ' To truly love we must learn to mix various ingredients-care, affection,recognition,respect,communication.' What she said about love is inspiring and very thoughtful.


message 19: by Caroline (new)

Caroline Gabe (cmgabe) | 23 comments Chapters 2 and 3 have really got me wondering how I can raise my son in a way that doesn't perpetuate the socially accepted/expected gender stereotypes. Even if I strive to keep them out of my home, he will be bombarded with them at school and in public.

Quote pg 39:
"Estrangement from feelings makes it easier for men to lie because they are often in a trance state, utilizing survival strategies of asserting manhood that they learned as boys."


message 20: by Kressel (new)

Kressel Housman | 436 comments Caroline wrote: "Chapters 2 and 3 have really got me wondering how I can raise my son in a way that doesn't perpetuate the socially accepted/expected gender stereotypes. Even if I strive to keep them out of my home, he will be bombarded with them at school and in public."

Emma has called for #HeforShe, but when we become the mothers of sons, we become #SheforHe, hopefully raising a #HeforShe.


message 21: by Sara (last edited Mar 09, 2016 07:00PM) (new)

Sara "...care is a dimension of love, but simply giving care does not mean we are loving." p. 8

I feel this is such a true statement. It so easily fits with breaks in relationships - the care is there, but the love is not - and care cannot sustain a relationship the way love can.

Care can be going through the motions of love, but it is not deep enough, nor is it a strong enough aspect of love to fulfill the need that love provides.


message 22: by Daniela (new)

Daniela Zekotic | 72 comments I just started with the book, and there is a quote right in the introduction that struck me: Page xviii
"I am afraid that we may be raising a generation of young people who will grow up afraid to love, afraid to give themselves completely to a other person, because they will have seen how much it hurts to take the risk of loving and have it not work out."

I'm only 20, but I pretty much relate to this quote. I'm afraid myself to give myself completely to a guy, or even give all my love to my friends as I've been disappointed and hurt before. But I think in the end it's important to keep giving our love, we won't be disappointed forever (at least I hope so)


message 23: by Aglaea (new)

Aglaea | 987 comments Daniela wrote: "I just started with the book, and there is a quote right in the introduction that struck me: Page xviii
"I am afraid that we may be raising a generation of young people who will grow up afraid to l..."


From someone almost double your age :) Hmm, being cautious is only a good thing, no, excellent thing. Not all men are bad, though, or out to hurt you, but quite a few are rather wrapped up in themselves somehow, and I've basically been burned my whole life. I think pop-culture society sets some sort of surreal ideal on what it should be like, and if we "fail" to find a partner, basically we are losers. Hello, not at all!

My first relationship was at 30 when I found my now ex-husband. He was abusive which I've written elsewhere about here, but this time I want to say that I pushed too much to make it happen. We were no good match and after some years divorce loomed.

There are people who work their way through relationship after relationship, but I'd love to see feminism adress a more wholesome way of life, which would include also those of us who feel that in order to open up in the most profound ways, it might take years to develop (or even be found). And it might be that such persons also feel like quality over quantity is their thing. By this I mean that "quantity" refers to a forced arrangement which feels completely wrong, but due to societal pressure we throw ourselves into it anyway. So for me personally, I'd rather be with someone only when it truly means something and I care deeply about him. Anything else for me is a complete waste of time, and time away from learning to know myself better, and doing good.

I guess what I'm saying is trust your instinct. And be proud of trusting that instinct. When you're ready, you'll know, and there will be no reason to feel afraid. In the meantime, be happy in your singlehood! There is no chaos due to being paired up with the wrong person :)


message 24: by [deleted user] (new)

"He remained wedded to a paradigm of sexual difference that had at its root the assumption that men are inherently different from women, with different emotional needs and longings. In his mind, my problem was my refusal to accept these "natural" roles. Like many liberal man in the age of feminism, he blieved women should have equal access to jobs and be given equal pay, but when it came to matters of home and heart he still believed caregiving was the female role." p. 149 bell hooks

This quote moved me. I know a lot of people who are for equal rights, who still insist they want to be treated like a lady or they want to be a gentleman.


message 25: by Sandy Bergeson (new)

Sandy Bergeson Aglaea wrote: "I guess what I'm saying is trust your instinct. And be proud of trusting that instinct. When you're ready, you'll know, and there will be no reason to feel afraid."

But part of what Bell Hooks is saying is that when you are raised with a confusing definition of love, your instincts are misguided and can't be trusted until and unless you do something....make some internal adjustments...so that you are not drawn to the abuse or lack of love and are just attracted to the caregiver.

I was totally moved by the preface of the book where she discusses "It was love's absence that let me know how much love mattered" and "left me with a feeling of brokenheartedness so profound I was spellbound."

I know someone right now who is 68 years old and so broken by her lovelessness as a child (in a house that from the outside appeared to be loving and warm) that she can not find a way out. And one of her comments is "Why did no one see how broken I was and how badly I needed love and attention? Anyone????"
I think it is important for those of us who do the inner work to stay open to children who come into our lives if only for a moment. That one moment may be their liferaft.



message 26: by Sara (new)

Sara "It disturbed me that women I respected did not take the need for male parenting seriously or believe that it was as important for a man to want to parent as a woman." p. 43

This is so crucial - where I work, I get to see all types of parents/family dynamics and it overjoys me when I see fathers coming in with their children and are clearly playing a parenting role, as it's such a rare sight. It's beautiful.


message 27: by Emily (new)

Emily (emyvrooom) | 64 comments I really appreciated hooks' discussion of dysfunctional family-of-origin love in the first chapter. I grew up with a dysfunctional family, and though our relationships have improved in many ways as I moved into adulthood, it will be a lifelong work-in-progress to break through the pain and distrust that were created.

"Since I felt and still feel attached to my parents and siblings, proud of all the positive dimensions of our family life, I did not want to describe us by using a term that implied our life together had been all negative or bad... With therapeutic help I was able to see the term 'dysfunctional' as a useful description and not as an absolute negative judgment. My family if origin provided, throughout my childhood, a dysfunctional setting and it remains one. This does not mean that it is not also a setting in which affection, delight, and care are present." (Pgs 6-7)


message 28: by Caroline (new)

Caroline Gabe (cmgabe) | 23 comments "While emotional needs are difficult, and often are impossible to satisfy, material desires are easier to fulfill. Our nation fell into the trap of pathological narcissism in the wake of wars that brought economic bounty while undermining the vision of freedom and justice essential to sustaining democracy." (page 106)

So appropriate - I think this quote ties well into the discussion of dysfunctional families of origin because I have often seen "stuff" used as a replacement for "love" or even just giving kids basic attention. This leads to the connection of a monetary value to love...


message 29: by Sara (new)

Sara "Usually, fundamentalists, be they Christian, Muslim, or any faith, shape and interpret religious thought to make it conform to and legitimize a conservative status quo. Fundamentalist thinkers use religion to justify supporting imperialism, militarism, sexism, racism, homophobia. They deny the unifying message of love that is at the heart of every major religious tradition." p. 73

Her statement her is strong. I agree with her that there is a universal hunger in the souls of mankind for a spiritual life/connection. I dislike, however, blanket statements about religion in that the religion I practice (the Baha'i Faith) is often left out, or is lumped in there without knowledge, because it supports exactly what she's saying, in that love is a unifier and all of mankind must love one another, for we are all endowed with a noble spirit.

So while I find her argument about faith traditions compelling, it's not wholly representative of my faith tradition. I mostly have read this chapter with detachment.


message 30: by Kristen (new)

Kristen Post (kristenpost) | 15 comments Tiffany wrote: "I am glad that this work was chosen for this month's read. I've read this a few years back and re-reading it now, using my old scribbled book.

If I may suggest, as you move along with the reading..."


I just finished chapter 4. I liked the idea of bringing love into the workplace. The idea that some of us can have fulfilling jobs we enjoy that are economically viable, but that the rest of us have to work at putting our all into our jobs in order to maintain self-esteem and self-love really resonated with me. She said on page 62, "Doing a job well, even if we do not enjoy what we are doing, means that we leave it with a feeling of well-being, our self-esteem intact."

I especially appreciated bell's respect for homemakers and those who put love into their craft/art on pages 65-66. I was a little confused, though, because in an interview with Emma Watson, hooks deplored the character Hermione's apparent shift to that of a "suburban housewife." Hooks' comments in the interview rubbed me the wrong way, but in her book she echoes my own sentiments. The difference is a bit jarring, but perhaps the two texts represent changes in her own beliefs. After all, she does say in the interview that we all try "on acceptable images of femininity." Or perhaps I misunderstood the interview comments.

Either way, it's a good book so far. I'm looking forward to reading the rest.
http://www.papermag.com/emma-watson-b...


message 31: by Tadej (new)

Tadej Brunšek (tad3j) | 145 comments Emma, when you take money out of your equation, there is the world which you really live. It is actually only our social system that dictate our living. And those rules can only be accepted with 1/4 of people. People that feel suddenly free, when they do not think of money and benefit and how they will make through life (including finances), are the ones who direct motive is not money but living. But because our social system convinced us that "money is important" for living or better said, money is everywhere and you just cannot live without it because everything today is connected with the money, everyone gets feeling that "you need money". But every human being strives for good feeling inside, and that can be achieved also without a money.

Money enables us to grant a material wishes, to be in the centre of attention or to be safe - this combinations are spread among people, and therefore people do not pay attention to himself to build trust IN himself to overcome fear of others, to be confident IN ourselves, to overcome attention to stand out, and to do things that makes us happy for others, which brings to us also benefit in return from others.

Said with other words, when we pay attention only on vegetating - following already known forms of living, we lose ourselves, and this is only thing that we feel - ourselves. Theres nothing wrong with the money, the problem is when money deceives our beliefs - that it is important for our happiness in life.

Raizel, the children upbringing is one of the most important and also one of the most misinformed topics in modern world. When people believe that they can teach their children to obey with words, and forget about own behaving.

Children are born without any pattern of behaving, meaning, believing which is unique with people. Everything that one is learned gets from his parents, close ones behaving and subconscious patterns which they use. For example if parent is convinced that he has less money that he deserves (out of personal too high expectations), the same pattern will get child, which will then take into his own world. But for children this is only starting point as he is not aware of his parents too high expectations. After a few years and when this child will grown up, he would subconsciously use this pattern in comparison to his own living.

From now on, we can have a child that his character is very adapted to living in high materialistic world - then this pattern would not become such a problem, but if child is character who's school is not really his thing, who does not want to study, this pattern can represent a problem, as he would blame others for his inabilities and his world will become less worthy in comparison to others.

The second thing with children is, that we look at them out of our knowledge. We forget that child will become one day independent cell, that only because he looks helpless in his early years, this does not mean he is already learning subconscious patterns from his parents. Every child needs to know his limits and borders to where he can go so punishment is ok. But never without a reason! We have to set high expectations, to make them hard working and avoid pattern to looking at every job as drudgery. Of course there should always be compliments and praises included, as without these, he cannot gain self confidence.

There is also one groundbreaking point in life for children. And that is puberty. When they start to grow up, they come into fights with parents or close ones. This is because they start to set the meanings in his own world to everything that they want to believe. This is called also thinking with his own head. And because parents feel that they cannot have them anymore under control and are afraid that his child would do bad or dangerous things, they started to overprotecting them. With the words! This is example of very bad parenting as parents who does not have trust in himself, does not have trust that their kid has enough good values for live. If parents have enough trust, they do feel safe, confident and happy. Those feelings are more important than any of the word, we can speak to the children. Because children learn from our subconscious patterns.


message 32: by Krynne (new)

Krynne Khrønic | 11 comments "We can all resist the temptation of greed. We can work to change public policy, electing leaders who are honest and progressive. We can turn off the television set. We can show respect for love. To save our planet we can stop thoughtless waste. We can recycle and support ecologically advanced survival strategies. We can celebrate and honor communalism and interdependency by sharing resources. All these gestures show a respect and a gratitude for life. When we value the delaying of gratification and take responsibility for our actions, we simplify our emotional universe. Living simply makes loving simple. The choice to live simply necessarily enhances our capacity to love. It is the way we learn to practice compassion, daily affirming our connection to a world community." PAGE 125

To me, the above passage really speaks to the values that I hold true. In this modern consumers age, there are difficulties with trying to help others, and saving the planet. More often than not, I am put down for what I believe and hold true to my heart. I receive comments like "Why bother?", "How do you know you are actually helping?" , and "Isn't it easier to just not care?" If there were more people looking out for others, I feel the world would be a much more peaceful place. The competition between countries to gather more money or control of resources are really what is wrong with the world. Most humans follow by example, and if our government and world leaders are participating in bad behavior, there is nothing stopping the general public from doing the same.


message 33: by Tiffany (new)

Tiffany Thank you, All for your participation. Surely, we've all founds gems and ideas that are alien or those that go against our grain. But ultimately, I know something sparked in all of us, in reading this novel. Hoping to interact more w/ everyone in the coming months!

I learned a lot from everyone's input/interpretation.


message 34: by erika (new)

erika | 36 comments Here are some quotes I loved:

Page 11: Undoubtedly, many of us are more comfortable with the notion that love can mean anything to anybody precisely because when we define it with precision and clarity it brings us face to face with our lacks-- with terrible alienation.

Page 27: Care and affirmation, the opposite of abuse and humiliation, are the foundation of love

Page 66: When we intentionally strive to make our homes places where we are ready to give and receive love, every object we place there enhances our well-being.

Page 135: the more genuine our romantic loves the more we don't feel called upon to weaken or sever ties with friends in order to strengthen ties with romantic partners


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