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My First Read of "A Clash of Kings"

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message 1: by Jonathan (last edited Jul 16, 2014 06:42AM) (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Those of you intrepid enough to keep track of lil' ole' me might remember my first thread, where I gave real-time thoughts as I read through A Game of Thrones for the first time.

I thought it might be fun to do the same with this book and the others in the series as I go through them. So, here we go again. Newbies, avoid the spoilers. Veterans: Thrill at my accurate predictions! Mock my missed guesses! Compliment my abundant good taste!

I should start by saying I'm already 200 words into the book, which is the fault of GRRM exclusively. There's no doubt in my mind that this second book moves at a brisker pace than its predecessor.

Highlights so far:
1) Tyrion
2) The plotting by Stannis
3) The plotting by the Greyjoys

Downers so far:
1) One chapter of Danys. Seriously?
2) Oh, John Snow? Yeah, I was about to forget too, given that I got oh, twenty pages of the guy, and that's it. Though I'm hoping we'll circle back once that treacherous former Captain of the Gold Cloaks makes his way north.

More to come.


message 2: by Kat (new)

Kat (katsobsession) | 141 comments Yay! I enjoyed your first one :)


message 3: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments I remember you, Kat :) Good to see you again. Care to watch me gripe, complain and gush where-apropos?


message 4: by Telemachus (new)

Telemachus (fightingfromafar) | 69 comments This is a great idea :) I'm rereading the books (just finished A Clash of Kings), but since I know where the story is going, I'm always waiting for this and that to happen, trying to remember in which book something happened. Therefore it's interesting to get a reminder of what it's like to explore GRRM's world for the first time.


message 5: by Kat (new)

Kat (katsobsession) | 141 comments Of course, Jon! Looking forward to it!


message 6: by Jonathan (last edited May 01, 2014 01:05PM) (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments So Tyrion is preparing for ye olde siege, but he's in the position of both hoping it doesn't happen, and also wondering what direction it's going to come from.

I find the map in the back of the book to be very useful. By my calculation, here at around page 210 or so, Renly is advancing from the southeast, Stannis could be coming across from the oceans to the west at any time, Robb Stark's forces are due North (though constrained in mobility by the nearby presence of Tywin Lannister's army)...but the worst threat probably comes from the way Cersei and Joff keep poking the bear called the starving and desperate citizens. We'll see.

Poor Arya. She can't catch a break. I'm kind of wondering why she doesn't just bail on these other guys--they seem to be slowing her down. Yeah, I know--not much plot if she just books it into the woods and slips North. But the God's Eye lake screams "convenient obstacle" (I'm sometimes guilty of the same, being an author myself), and Arya should be too observant to be so easily grabbed by this roving group of baddies led by Clegane. It seems inconsistent with what we know about the character.


message 7: by Mitali (new)

Mitali | 117 comments Nice to see you reading the next book in the series, Jonathan. Looking forward to the rest of this thread. :)

Re: Arya - My memory may be off, but I think its stated or at least strongly hinted that she doesn't ditch her friends because of what her father used to say to her about the lone wolf perishing, but the pack surviving. At least, she thinks this line several times, though I don't remember which book it was in. Also, it's easy to forget given how self-sufficient she seems, but she's only 9 years old! That's kind of way too young to be wandering around a war-torn land by herself.

Minor quibble: Stannis is on the east of King's Landing, not west. His base is on Dragonstone, which is an island off the east coast of Westeros.


message 8: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Ah, thank you for correcting my geography. Sometimes it's hard to keep track of it in this series.

I think you're right about Arya's logic, but...I don't know. This is the same girl that once roved all around King's Landing in the dead of night by herself, and also survived on her own for at least a few days following the coup.


message 9: by Mitali (new)

Mitali | 117 comments True enough, but surviving on one's own for a few days in KL is not the same as travelling through thousands of miles of dangerous countryside on one's own over a span of months. Arya was nearly starving even while in KL (where there was still the option of stealing food from shops). In the countryside, finding food would become overwhelmingly difficult, especially in the Riverlands, where the recent war has destroyed the crops.


message 10: by Jonathan (last edited May 06, 2014 09:52AM) (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments That's a very good point, what with the Lannisters waging the worst kind of war.

My most recent reading took me to Cat and Renly Baratheon. I really liked this chapter, where Renly Baratheon is already assuming he'll be King and is making the offer for clemency and a long list of items to go in Robb's favor if he'll endorse his claim to the Iron Throne.

I think what resonated with me is the way the youngsters in his court are acting--mocking opponents they haven't met, proclaiming all their great deeds soon to be done despite their total lack of experience with the ugliness of war. It reminded me a lot of the fervor around the start of WWI and the Civil War. It was a nice touch.

Like everything else in this series, there's always an "Everything is going great! Except..." aspect to this chapter. And now I'm itching to see how Stannis' formal entry into the conflict--against his own brother--is going to play out.

Next up is an update of Jon Snow, finally. I've been looking forward to that.


message 11: by Wally (new)

Wally (wgovern3) | 5 comments Missed your Game of Thrones thread. But thoroughly enjoying this one. I'm also on my first reads of the series and also on Clash of Kings, soo it'll be fun to get your take on the reading so far.


message 12: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Thanks, Wally.


message 13: by Jonathan (last edited May 08, 2014 06:00AM) (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Okay, so clearly the entire Watch war party is doomed. That's what I got out of Jon's chapter. I must have missed something earlier because I'd forgotten about this rebel King they're trying to go after north of the Wall.

As much as I like Jon Snow, I'm always a little bummed out when I read his chapters, for reasons completely unrelated to the book itself. See, in one of my novels I reference "Wilders", and long before I ever cracked open any of the books in ASOIF I wrote at length about an isolated outpost that carefully manned their "Wall", and now I'm wondering if I'll need to go back and rewrite chunks of that.

Ack. We'll see.


message 14: by Jonathan (last edited May 08, 2014 06:36PM) (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Greyjoy is a womanizing fool. As much as I hate him for that, it actually makes him one of the better characters in the book.

See, I respect the fact that George R.R. Martin writes in shades of gray, with mostly-sympathetic characters. That's good stuff, especially when one considers that many of the greatest evils to be visited on mankind were undertaken by people who fundamentally believed they were in the right. They believed in making omelets.

But it's nice to have the opposite side of that coin, too. Greyjoy's primary motivation is actually similar to Arya's--he feels like the little kid at the big kid's table, swept along by events he is somewhat helpless to control. But--again, like Arya--Theon isn't resigned to his fate. What makes him different is that Arya's drive to grow stronger is a means to no longer be that helpless child and to find her own unique niche in the world. Theon's is a perspective colored by baser desires: he wants power, riches, and revenge. And that base nature makes him a welcome figure among the others.


message 15: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Speaking of, we got to circle back to Arya and Dany.

Arya's chapter was suitably depressing given the situation she is in, and man oh MAN I can't wait for someone to kill Gregor Clegane and his little retinue. This chapter had a horrible kind of ambiance that really put me in the slave caravan with her.

Then there's Dany's chapter. I enjoyed this one, too, and not just because we haven't seen Dany in a while. Rather, it's because Dany's possession of dragons is rightly regarded as a double-edged sword. It would be like a contemporary country possessing the world's only three nuclear weapons, only these are alive and beautiful.

I really hope the dragons survive these coming conflicts to make still more dragons.


message 16: by Christine (new)

Christine (christine01) | 12 comments Hello Everyone! This is my first read of "A Clash Of KIngs"! I haven't had much time to read lately but I am hoping to do some catch-up reading next week during my vacation... Love the t.v. series and looking forward to reading more of this book! =)


message 17: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Be careful, Christine; they'll be spoilers a-plenty in this thread, though feel free to add your own thoughts--it would be interesting to see if they gel with mine.

We got to circle back to a variety of characters in the latest reading. The knowledge of yet more incest being made by Cersei is somewhat surprising. As conflicted as she is, I always thought she was at least true to Jaime. To suddenly grab the nearest thing available (no pun intended!) surprised me, but then she has to be worried sick about Jaime's status. It was amusing to watch Tyrion put Lancel in his place, though.

It's about time to circle back to Cat and Robb, which I imagine will happen over the next few chapters. Davos could use a visit, too. One sometimes gets the impression that GRRM is running along and suddenly remembers he hasn't revisited a character in some time.


message 18: by Mitali (new)

Mitali | 117 comments Really enjoying your comments, Jonathan. Keep it up!

Jonathan wrote: " The knowledge of yet more incest being made by Cersei is somewhat surprising. As conflicted as she is, I always thought she was at least true to Jaime. To suddenly grab the nearest thing available (no pun intended!) surprised me, but then she has to be worried sick about Jaime's status."

I have always read Cersei's fondness for incest as an extension of her self-love. In fact, her love for her children also seems to be an aspect of that (not that she doesn't truly love her children - but she seems to love them because they are a part of her and like her in looks and/or nature). She is a deeply self-absorbed and narcissistic person - it makes sense that she's sleeping with her twin brother, i.e. the male counterpart of herself. And when he's not available, she turns to the next closest male relative who is similar to herself in looks and personality. Sometimes I wonder if she would be attracted to Joffrey when he grew up, considering how obsessed with him she is, and how like her he is.


message 19: by Christine (new)

Christine (christine01) | 12 comments Jonathan wrote: "Be careful, Christine; they'll be spoilers a-plenty in this thread, though feel free to add your own thoughts--it would be interesting to see if they gel with mine.

We got to circle back to a vari..."


Thanks Jonathan, I will definitely keep that in mind! =)


message 20: by James (new)

James Galvin | 98 comments @ Johnathan and Mitali. I agree with Mitali. When Jamie left kings landing I was waiting for her to start bedding Jeoffrey. She's crazy obsessed with him. So is also so into herself she's almost as narcissistic as Gwenith Paltrow.


message 21: by Jonathan (last edited May 19, 2014 09:41AM) (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments I think those are good points both of you raised. To be sure, as bad as Joff is I think Cersei is even more dangerous. A tyrant like Joffrey will self-destruct, plus one can see him coming a mile away. Cersei is so much more subversive.

Though clearly, the most dangerous opponent anyone would face in King's Landing is Tyrion.

We got another dose of Arya, Cat, Sansa and Tyrion in the latest reading. Arya's chapter was somewhat slow at the start,as it mainly served to provide exposition about Harrenhal and the situation there under Tywin Lannister. Where it picked up was her run-in with the man that owed her a debt for saving his bacon back during the siege and fire several chapters ago. This killer is loose inside the keep, and at Arya's beck and call, and it's going to be fun watching that play out. My hunch is that the character was inspired by Ted Bundy and other charismatic serial killers. It's like Dexter Morgan has been thrown into a fantasy world. I dig it.

Cat desperately attempts to broker an agreement between Renly and Stannis at Storm's End. The problem is that Renly is an arrogant twit, even if he is a skilled leader, and Stannis is an uncompromising man with a very legitimate claim to the throne. The diciest of power politics are at display, leading to a situation in which Renly inadvertently advocates for Joff not being the product of incest; so desperate is Renly to retain his claim to the throne.

I know Renly has the largest total army, but Stannis strikes me as much more dangerous. Were I Stannis, I'd send my grizzled vets against Renly's forces in the dead of night, breaking his bright-eyed rookies. Renly only has his advance troop here, and they've never served together, so this is a golden opportunity for Stannis to cut the head off of a contender's force, possibly seizing his brother in the process.

Tyrion saves Sansa from further humiliation, at Joff's hands, in the fallout of yet another stunning victory for Robb. It's sad that she can't trust Tyrion more than she does, but you can't blame her skepticism. I don't hold out much hope for Dontos getting her out of the city, however. I have a feeling he's going to wind up drawn and quartered.


message 22: by James (new)

James Galvin | 98 comments Jonathan I love your use of the word twit to describe Renly, as that is my favorite term to describe Sansa.

Also, I love reading your threads but have a hard time holding my tongue. I'm looking forward your A Storm of Swords thread most of all despite the fact that it will probably kill me.


message 23: by Mitali (new)

Mitali | 117 comments It's really interesting reading a fresh perspective on these books from someone who doesn't know how things are going to turn out.

Jonathan wrote: "My hunch is that the character was inspired by Ted Bundy and other charismatic serial killers. It's like Dexter Morgan has been thrown into a fantasy world. I dig it."

Hmm, I've never thought of him this way, but it kind of makes sense. Dexter Morgan at least (from the earlier seasons, not later) is a pretty good analogy. But still, there's more to him than meets the eye - keep reading and you'll see! (I do hope that doesn't count as spoilerific.)

Jonathan wrote: "It's sad that she can't trust Tyrion more than she does, but you can't blame her skepticism."

Sadly, there are some crazy fans out there who do blame Sansa for not trusting Tyrion. Apparently, she's somehow supposed to know that he's a good guy, despite the fact that their families are enemies, and his family is responsible for her father's death. Sure, Tyrion behaves kindly towards her - but Cersei was nice to her initially as well, and we know how that turned out.


message 24: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments WOW.

Wow, wow, wow--I thought Renly might be captured, or driven off, but--outright killed? I didn't see that coming.

So Cat just "knows" it was Stannis. I can't find myself placing too much stock in that. This is the same woman who was convinced Tyrion was responsible for Bran's near-murder, and we know how that turned out.

No, I think someone else is at work, though at this point I'm not sure who. Who else has a vested interest in seeing Renly dead, and who else can wield what appears to be magic?

I would be remiss if I didn't talk about Bran's dreams, which I skipped over earlier. I've never been a big fan of the dream sequences in these books, but Bran's at least seem to be leading him somewhere. My guess for the destination ranges to everything from lycanthropy to prophecy to animal sight (a la the Beastmaster), but I've little more than that for now.


message 25: by Simone (new)

Simone Francois (simonefrncs) | 14 comments I am new to the group and just finished the first book and just finished the second so I won't spoil it for you. I think Cat knows it Stannis because her and Brienne swear the shadow looked just like Stannis, and he did they were about to go to battle which Stannis would have lost because Renly had more men.


message 26: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Arya's life sucks right now, but I was glad to see another toadie get it. I think Martin realized that at this point in the tale something needed to go her way.

Over the past few chapters we've had a lot of combat and a lot of maneuvering, especially concerning Tywin Lannister's deployment of his army. We'll see if the Starks can appropriately counteract that.

Also, Brienne swears fealty to Cat, in a scene that feels very abrupt.


message 27: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Simone wrote: "I am new to the group and just finished the first book and just finished the second so I won't spoil it for you. I think Cat knows it Stannis because her and Brienne swear the shadow looked just li..."

I could see that.


message 28: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Well, I've lost my copy! Now I've got to buy another one :(


message 29: by Remy (new)

Remy Blas (remyblas) | 247 comments What happened to it?


message 30: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments We recently had a second child. I took the book with me to the hospital, and I haven't seen it since. I think I just misplaced it.


message 31: by Kat (new)

Kat (katsobsession) | 141 comments Well congratulations on the new baby!


message 32: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Thanks! :)


message 33: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Woohoo! I finally have another copy of the book, so look for this thread to update again soon.

Actually, it's funny (or tragic)--I got in my new copy just in time to find the old one. Augh.


message 34: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Stannis and Malisandre have wandered into this fray like they've got the God mode cheat on. Between Malisandre's vagina demons and Stannis' innate ruthlessness, it's hard to root for either of them. And poor Davos is the only sympathetic member of their faction.

Jon Snow's scenes have been OK, but I think they could have been condensed. I want to see what Arya, Dany, and Theon (this book's most interesting character so far) are up too. I miss Sansa's struggles in the castle, as well, though the scenes of rioting in the streets were welcome.

At this point in the book, I think GRRM is overloaded on characters. And I don't buy Brienne at all. She's clearly been wounded all her life, but she's glomped on Cat with too much ease. Wouldn't she be more guarded about the woman?


message 35: by Shii (new)

Shii (shiisreading) | 75 comments God mode cheat on! Right! hahaha!
This is awesome!! I agree with you in almost everything above.

I wouldn't worry about the character overload though, GRRM knows how to handle that stuff.
*If you know what I mean*


message 36: by Mitali (new)

Mitali | 117 comments If you think the series is already overloaded with characters, wait till you get to the fourth and fifth books, where the number of characters goes into overdrive. ;) Granted, some of the new introductions are necessary as replacements for characters who die in the previous three books.

Can you explain why you don't buy Brienne? My take on her is that she is particularly naive and idealistic, so she trusts people far easily for her own good. Think of her as essentially the tomboy version of Sansa: a wide-eyed believer in chivalry and honour and romance.


message 37: by Jonathan (last edited Jul 16, 2014 06:41AM) (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Shii, I have a feeling GRRM handles it like a mobster handles too much manpower on hand.

Mitali, I could see your point of view. I guess it's just my writer node sending up an alarm. Something that raises flags for me are when things seem to happen just too easily. Brienne is introduced in one chapter, then basically swears fealty to Cat the next. In the middle of that arc, the love of her life is killed by a vagina demon (yes, folks, I'm making that a thing). I guess one could say she's rebounding (in a sense), with nowhere else to go given that some think she's on the hook for Renly's murder, but it all just happens too quickly for me to find believable. My hunch is that GRRM was writing the chapter, became enamored with a character that he'd created during a span of free writing about the shindig Renly was hosting, and then simply crowbarred said character into the tale. I think he figured having her present long-term outweighed the short-term damage of shoehorning her into the narrative in such a manner.

Also, were I Cat, I'd be nervous about being associated with Brienne in the wake of a murder. If there's a dead claimant to the throne, and you're suddenly pals with one of the main suspects (and happen to be a suspect yourself), then that might lend folks to think it was a conspiracy. As shrewd as Cat is, I just don't see her taking Brienne aboard so quickly.

I don't have anything against the character, just the way she's been brought in.


message 38: by Remy (new)

Remy Blas (remyblas) | 247 comments Well, I don't think Catelyn is even able to think that way. If she could analyze the possible outcomes of her actions, she would have probably realized that taking Tyrion hostage with no evidence was probably a very bad idea. But she didn't, and that eventually lead to her husband's death and the beginning of a war.


message 39: by Shii (new)

Shii (shiisreading) | 75 comments Yeah...maybe he's a little bit of a mobster...but we mere mortals love our mobster :D


message 40: by Mitali (last edited Jul 16, 2014 01:10PM) (new)

Mitali | 117 comments Jonathan wrote: "My hunch is that GRRM was writing the chapter, became enamored with a character that he'd created during a span of free writing about the shindig Renly was hosting, and then simply crowbarred said character into the tale. I think he figured having her present long-term outweighed the short-term damage of shoehorning her into the narrative in such a manner."

Ok, I see your point now. Still, I personally didn't have much problem with Brienne's insertion into Catelyn's story. Also (I hope this doesn't count as a spoiler), Brienne's story later on takes much more interesting turns, so I can forgive the somewhat clunky way she was introduced.

Remy wrote: "she would have probably realized that taking Tyrion hostage with no evidence was probably a very bad idea."

As a matter of fact she did have evidence, i.e. the dagger. The problem was that it was faked by her childhood pal, Littlefinger.


message 41: by Remy (new)

Remy Blas (remyblas) | 247 comments "As a matter of fact she did have evidence, i.e. the dagger. The problem was that it was faked by her childhood pal, Littlefinger."

I don't think that could count as evidence. Even if Littlefinger was telling the truth and Tyrion had won the dagger from him, that didn't prove anything. I don't even think she planed to capture him either, at least not that soon. It was a rushed decision made in the heat of the moment when she found Tyrion by coincidence (or fate if you don't believe in coincidences). So in my opinion it was a bad decision. But anyway, which character in this story doesn't make stupid decisions sooner or later?

Sorry for going off topic XD


message 42: by Mitali (last edited Jul 16, 2014 10:33PM) (new)

Mitali | 117 comments Remy wrote: "I don't think that could count as evidence. Even if Littlefinger..."

It was far from enough evidence to convict him, but even in a modern legal system it would be enough to arrest him. The (alleged) owner of the murder weapon is generally the first suspect.

Of course, I agree that Catelyn didn't intend to capture Tyrion then and there - in fact, she tried to hide from him when she saw him at the Inn at the Crossroads. But once he saw her, she felt that it was a 'now or never' type of situation: if she let him return to King's Landing, he would be back in the safety of his family. As the Queen's brother and a Lannister, he was essentially untouchable if he had the backing of his family. This was the only time he could be brought to justice (if he indeed was behind attempted murder of Bran). So Catelyn made a somewhat rash decision. Did it backfire on her? Absolutely - spectacularly so. But at the point when she made it, she felt it was better than the alternative, which was letting her son's attempted murderer go scot-free after exchanging polite pleasantries with him.

Sorry for hijacking your thread, Jonathan. :)


message 43: by Remy (new)

Remy Blas (remyblas) | 247 comments Mitali wrote: "Remy wrote: "I don't think that could count as evidence. Even if Littlefinger..."
It was far from enough evidence to convict him, but even in a modern legal system it would be enough to arrest him..."


I think we're basically saying the same thing here, aren't we?


message 44: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Folks, folks, back on topic please. I don't see how any of this has anything to do with vagina demons. ;-)


message 45: by Stephen (last edited Jul 25, 2014 08:17AM) (new)

Stephen Richter (stephenofllongbeach) | 131 comments http://podcastoficeandfire.com/ is about to finish out a re read of COK. They are fairly slow and have all sorts of life interruptions that delay podcasts, but every now & then the hosts will shine new light on certain passages that will surprise you. I did a reread of all the books after Dances because I wanted to spot possible Bloodraven influences.(AKA the Tree Guy)


message 46: by Jonathan (last edited Jul 22, 2014 08:26AM) (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Dany has a series of visions, compliments of the Undying, which left me more confused than fulfilled. That's probably the point. I don't understand Pyat Pree's motivation. If he wanted Dany to die at the hands of the Undying, then why did he give her a correct route through their lair? Why not just tell her "feel free to check out any room you want; they're all awesome".

Dany's role in this book has been somewhat disappointing.

Theon Greyjoy has taken Winterfell for now, and Bran is pushed into the unfortunate position of having to submit the castle to the invaders. I'm surprised a wartime garrison was taken so easily, but it's not a major niggle (it does, after all, advance the plot). The wolf dreams still hint at something, but we don't know what that something is yet.

Harrenhal is taken by Arya and her buddies. Yay! And she has a mysterious new friend who I really thought was Syrio Forel. Yay! And he's been wearing a mask for weeks....ew. I'll be interested in seeing where that goes, however.

Oh, and look. Roose Bolton has control of Harrenhal. I dig Roose Bolton. One gets the impression that he has a really tactical mind, and I'd love to see that character explored.

Speaking of tactical minds, Tyrion is now preparing less for Robb's arrival and more for Stannis' arrival. I'm halfway through that chapter as of my last reading, so I'll hold my thoughts.


message 47: by Remy (new)

Remy Blas (remyblas) | 247 comments I wanted to comment but I realized there's probably nothing I can say about this that isn't a spoiler.

Just one thing, because I'm getting confused: Who's been wearing a mask? Are you talking about Jaqen H'ghar?


message 48: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Yeah, Jaqen.


message 49: by Remy (new)

Remy Blas (remyblas) | 247 comments But Jaqen wasn't wearing a mask (unless you were being sarcastic or something and I didn't get it). If you're talking about what he did when he say goodbye to Arya, it was more of a sorcery thing. You know, kinda like the vagina monsters you were mentioning before.


message 50: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments It said he drew his hand down his face, and his face split apart. Or something like that.


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